Poor Sleeper into Teen Years

[Lecka]

My 12-year-old has always had a very hard time falling asleep, feeling tired, recognizing he feels tired, unwinding, relaxing, etc.  Always.  He has never had an easy time falling asleep, winding down, or moving through a bedtime routine. 

Now my younger kids have always had a much easier (or plainly easy time, for one of them!), and right now, one of them is very independent at bedtime, I give her two reminders (an "almost time for bed" and a "get ready for bed") and she does her things and goes to bed and goes to sleep.  For my other younger child, I am still move involved.  I am still very involved with his teeth care because he still requires supervision for that.  I still read to him at night.  At this point, when I am reading, I will give him a choice for "one more chapter" or "go to bed now," and about half the time he will say "I'm ready for bed now," and then get in bed and fall asleep. 

Well, this is nothing like how it is for my older son.  He does not fall asleep so easy.  He doesn't go through a bedtime routine so easily. 

He also just needs more, more, more because he isn't able to do as much independently.  We have been giving him some chances to see if he just needed chances to be more independent, and he is showing he is not ready.  I do not think it is anything "on purpose," he just has a hard time, and it is something his younger siblings have an easy time with, and frankly it is something that has always been easy for me.  My husband has more empathy for him as he has a hard time sleeping sometimes and did when he was younger. 

Anyway -- tonight I am moving him up, he is going to start getting ready for bed and have some undivided attention from me, while I am still very fresh (as I get less patient later in the evening) and he is going to have a longer winddown, etc, and I think it is going to be good and needed. 

But I really do not like that I am moving him before the younger kids, staying up a little later has always been a privilege for him and a chance for him to have some solo mom-and-dad time for 20-30 minutes.  He is also used to having the solo dad time while I am with the younger kids, which has been important for him. 

Has anyone else moved an older child's bedtime routine earlier than younger kids?  Did it work? 

I am expecting him to fall asleep at the same time as the younger kids, too, because they just have an easier/faster time doing what they need to do and then they also fall asleep much more quickly.  One of my younger kids falls asleep very quickly, within 5 minutes probably, and always has.  The other will sometimes be awake in bed for as much as 20 minutes, but he is content to be laying down and resting (and unwinding). 

My older son *has* to unwind or he will lay in bed awake for 2 hours or more.  Reading in bed can work for him, but if he reads in bed, he HAS to read for 30 minutes for it to be restful to him.  Otherwise he will just lay there. 

There are things that work, they just take a long time, and I don't see a way around bumping him up so that he can have the time he needs to unwind and be able to fall asleep. 

Edit:  He doesn't seem like he is getting enough sleep right now, and we have things in the morning to get up for.  And at times when I have let him sleep whenever, he has had really odd and shifting sleep schedules, and it doesn't work for us. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

We don't have bedtime routines or rules (other than do not bother me when I'm sleeping unless you are dying or I will choke you).  Both kids have had a harder time sleeping as they got closer to the teen years or as a teen.  My 16 year old has a tough time, but he does actually sometimes sleep quite a bit.  Just it's like his time of feeling awake and tired has shifted.  I remember feeling like that as a teen as well.  I often went to bed very late even though my parents required me to go to bed at a certain time.  I would just lay there for hours. 

So I have to wonder if it is a teen thing? 

I know that doesn't answer your question and I guess it's worth trying something, but yeah I think this is pretty typical. 

[Katy]

I have moved bedtimes earlier.  Sometimes it helps, sometimes not, but this might not be the same situation at all because typically kids with sleep problems in our family are either in foster care or are in that prepubescent hormonal storm that just makes sleep difficult.

One thing I have found is printing out routine cards - basically get clip art of each item in the routine, put it on a card, put the cards in order, and have them go through the routine.  When they first start we tape the cards to the wall.  After a while they go on a ring clip to check at the end. So you might have one for putting toys away, one for brushing teeth, one for pajamas, one for putting clothes in hamper or closet, one for prayers, one for bed, one for reading, etc. I've found this helps kids who are used to chaos get used to structure and calm because they know what to expect.  I don't know if this would help in your situation though. With one kid we downloaded some acceptable podcasts and audiobooks, put them on an old iphone and set a sleep timer to shut off at the end of a chapter or podcast episode. If he was still awake he could play the next chapter with the sleep timer on again.

[Lecka]

I didn’t realize this could be an age thing.  That makes me feel better!  It’s one of those things, when he was younger, I thought it would get better as he got older.  And he is better than he used to be!  But it’s frustrating to see younger siblings overtake him.

He does well with following routines and taking care of things and taking care of himself, at other times in the day.  Yes some slips here and there, but overall he does a good job.

Closer to bedtime, everything is hard for him.

I do think earlier will be better for him.  

He is old enough that he doesn’t need a picture schedule, but I think he might benefit from a written schedule and a discussion of time and how much time each of us think things should take.  If we agreed on that and we both thought it was a good timeline, that would actually be really helpful.  I think he would like to have a guaranteed block of time in the bathroom.  

I think to some extent we know what works for him, it just takes enough time that he can’t have the latest bedtime anymore.  

I can think of some things he likes I could add on the schedule, for me to do, that I would be willing to do if he is following his part.  Edit:  and I think that would make it seem like less of a punishment and more of a good deal, which is what I have been concerned about!  I do think we can come up with something we both like.  

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Have you looked into clonadine? Some kids have disrupted sleep cycles even from birth. One of mine has never been a “good sleeper”. If it is taking more than an hour to fall asleep even with good sleep hygiene.....know that there are some good options beyond melatonin. 

[Lecka]

I will keep that in mind.  

I think we still have options of trying to make changes, but ———— at the same time, I have done a LOT for YEARS and it is much harder for him than my other kids.

When we get his routine adjusted ——— I am going to have to see then how long he takes to fall asleep.  

He has had good periods of time when he is consistently falling asleep in less than 30 minutes, but we have to have a pretty high standard for that to happen.  

[Katy]

Does he have any other signs of ADHD?  I have one that is fine most of the day, but when he gets overtired at night he tends to run in circles.  Literal circles at 3, metaphorical ones now that he's older. He doesn't realize it until I tell him he's running in circles and needs to go to bed.

[mominco]

Op is your son on an medications or does he take Vitamins like d3 that might be interfering with his sleep?Does he drink soda/coffee/tea in the afternoon that could be causing insomnia?  

[Lady Florida.]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

Does he have any other signs of ADHD?  I have one that is fine most of the day, but when he gets overtired at night he tends to run in circles.  Literal circles at 3, metaphorical ones now that he's older. He doesn't realize it until I tell him he's running in circles and needs to go to bed.

My first thought was to wonder if he has ADHD. It's not uncommon for people with ADHD to have trouble sleeping, even when they're tired. While it's true that teens get a mixed up biological clock for a few years you said this son has always had trouble sleeping. When you add that to the other issues of still needing a nudge (or even a push) and has trouble doing things independently, that set off even more alarm bells.

Much of what you describe sounds a lot like the behavior patterns of a young person with ADHD.

[Lecka]

I think he has been drinking soda with friends.  I hadn’t thought of that!!!!!!!  We don’t have it at home except for special occasions (and more in the summer when we barbecue) but I think he may be having soda!  

He has had observation forms for ADHD filled out twice and they do not show elevated levels.  But he has some lower executive functioning, maybe some sensory issues, and sometimes some anxiety.

I expect to help him calm down and be relaxed, and a problem is if I am mentally frustrated and thinking “how come it has taken you 45 minutes to NOT put on pajamas” while I am with my younger kids, then I am not calm enough to be calming to him.  Sigh.  

I have never done enough for his maybe sensory issues — my younger son had obvious and severe sensory issues for a while (much better now!) and this son was never something I took very seriously.  But it’s been brought up by OT.  

I think/hope if I am very calm and peaceful, and i spend some time talking to him and giving him a back rub, and he has a warm bath, and then all that is done in time for him to read in bed...... that it will go well.  But I would be helping him before even giving my little kids a warning to wrap up playing, and getting them when he got in the bath.  I think!

 

[Katy]

Sensory things... a nice cold room and a nice heavy blanket or 5 might help too.

[Lecka]

I talked to him... he’s going to take a shower at 8:00 while little kids are still playing downstairs, so it will be quiet for him.  I will help him with anything he needs before 8:00.  Then after his shower he will go downstairs at the same time I call the little kids upstairs, and start reading in bed.

I think that will work.  I think the quiet will help a lot as far as sensory.  My little kids are loud.  

He does sleep in a cold room with two big comforters!  Lol.  

He is fine with it and thinks it will work out well — I am pleasantly surprised!  Maybe he is so old he doesn’t care about having a later bedtime.... he is almost 13.  Also wasn’t interested in a back rub.  

Edit:   I think he wants quiet time by himself as the main thing.  

[Targhee]

My oldest has had difficulties with winding down, sleep onset, staying asleep, and then rousing herself in the morning (it seems her prime sleep is between 3-10 AM.  She does have adhd and some anxiety, but this has been an issue since she was a toddler. She hasn’t napped AT ALL since 18 months.

We have always worked on sleep hygiene - routines, lights, screens, foods,  sounds, temperature, bedding, scents... And we used melatonin for four years.  It helped with onset somewhat but she always worke again and couldn’t fall back to sleep until about 3AM.  And the whole routine involved a lot of my coaxing. 

Currently we have been using Trazedone - it has worked better than anything else we do! She sleeps from about 10 to 8 am now. I know that’s a lot of sleep - she would like even more - but I am so grateful she gets so much! She’s also recognizing she needs to sleep (maybe because she actually does sleep now) and will say “I should go to bed.”

her routine starts at the same time as the 6 yr olds.  I don’t think she would like it if we started any earlier.

[Lecka]

So far so good..... he is in bed reading, everything going well.  One of my little kids was asleep before he made it into bed, and my other little kid was laying down before him.  So he isn’t first to bed ;)  But he is in bed!  

I guess he was getting overstimulated too late and missing his good sleep window?  I don’t know.

Now we just have to stay on top of it, sigh.  Sigh. 

 

[Mergath]

Have you tried letting him stay up until he feels tired? I was a horrible sleeper when I was a kid. It turns out my internal clock is wired differently and my normal sleep window is from 2am to around 9am. If I try to go to bed before that, I lay there forever and end up getting less sleep than if I just stayed up until two in the first place.

With that said, ASMR videos on Youtube are great for falling asleep. If I need to fall asleep quickly, I put on a video by Latte ASMR and I'm out in less than ten minutes. That woman is magical.

[Mergath]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I just wanted to quote this.  I mean, I get that the OP has things to get up for and sleeping late or hai g a grumpy morning doesn’t work for her family.  

 

As as a person who is more or less nocturnal, the schedule of the world just doesn’t work for me.  At 40 years old, I avoid scheduling ANY appointments before 10 am.   And at 12, staying up till 2am, without my moms knowledge, was common for me.  Sure, I was in bed by like 9:30, but yeah, up until 2am, reading or whatever.  It made getting up at 6:30 or 7am awful, but that was because I needed to sleep later, not because going to sleep earlier was possible.  Because I would turn around and do the same thing the next night.  

 

The world simply isn’t built to accommodate those of us who are naturally nocturnal.  

 

Did you hear about this study? This is totally me. I mean, I haven't been tested, but this is so my life and I'm certain I have this gene mutation. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170406121624.htm

[Wheres Toto]

My son has been like this his whole life.  He was a poor sleeper even as a baby, our pediatrician just told us he was that kid at the low end of the normal curve for how much sleep he needs.  Bedtime routines did nothing for him.

We basically let him do what he needs to do for bedtime.  Screens have to be off at a certain time but he can stay up and read or draw after that.   Right now he needs to get up at 9am a few days a week, 10am a couple other days but he often gets himself up earlier.  

He does have Aspergers and sensory processing disorder and is gifted, as well as just not needing as much sleep, so we figure we need to just go with the flow.

[SparklyUnicorn]

3 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

My son has been like this his whole life.  He was a poor sleeper even as a baby, our pediatrician just told us he was that kid at the low end of the normal curve for how much sleep he needs.  Bedtime routines did nothing for him.

We basically let him do what he needs to do for bedtime.  Screens have to be off at a certain time but he can stay up and read or draw after that.   Right now he needs to get up at 9am a few days a week, 10am a couple other days but he often gets himself up earlier.  

He does have Aspergers and sensory processing disorder and is gifted, as well as just not needing as much sleep, so we figure we need to just go with the flow.

 

My kid was a lousy sleeper even as a baby too.  I'm SO thankful we can just work around this because we homeschool.  I just don't require him to get up too early.  At one point we tried the melatonin.  That did absolutely nothing.  Didn't do anything for me either. 

[sassenach]

By 12, we were well past bedtimes or Mom  imposed routines. Is he neurotypical? I would probably look into getting him checked out in a sleep disorder clinic. Maybe he’s not producing the right sleep hormones? 

 

[Lecka]

Last night did go well and he woke well-rested.

He has two close relatives diagnosed with autism, and he really doesn’t have core symptoms, but he has several associated kinds of things, but in a minor way.  My son who has autism is a pretty good sleeper!  My son who has autism also kind-of has better motor coordination.  

I think we’ll see.  If he gets older and is similar then we need to look into more.  But for now if he just sleeps then it is good.  

 

 

[kbutton]

I think the being alone for a while to unwind might be a big part of his need. The things you've said about unwinding and such sound very much like me. I need two hours of doing little to nothing every night to feel even remotely like I could sleep. I think part of it is personality--I know someone else with a very similar personality who is the same way about needing that long period of time to unwind. For me, the rest is probably not great sleep training in early life. I just didn't need sleep as a child, and my parents needed both sleep and alone time, so they put me to bed, and I would stare are the ceiling for hours. In their defense, by 18 months, I barely slept from 10 PM to 6 AM and needed no naps. I fell asleep once during the day and my mom took a picture to show that it really actually happened, lol! 

I have recently started taking melatonin before bed. I found a brand that has two layers--one for early in the night and one for later that dissolves more slowly. It's magic. I try to take it about 1.5 hours before I want to sleep. It's AMAZING to feel tired at bedtime. 

I don't think my internal clock is set late--I can do things (if I am disciplined enough) to move my bedtime both earlier or later. It really seems to be that alone time, and I really can't get that earlier in the evening with kids, lol! 

[PeterPan]

Fwiw, I was like this and now I actually get tired like a normal mortal now that I'm on 5HTP. 5HTP converts to melatonin and serotonin, and you can have a genetic glitch in the conversion process (tryptophan to 5HTP) leaving you toast, cursed. I basically never used to get tired like a normal person. After the genetic testing (of my kids actually, we inferred on me), started this and it's WOWOWOWOW amazing.

[Lecka]

I’ve talked to him a little more.  I do think he just has to have time to do his thing.... he can’t rush it.  I wish he could rush it and move faster from “doing things” to “bed” but I think it’s the issue, and so there are things I can do with scheduling to allow him the time.

We may be getting into medical stuff when he is older, but for now I think he needs to work on habits too.  

I do think it’s more than just regular sleep issues, but I also think, he needs good habits.

Right now he doesn’t have any evening activities but I think as he gets older he will and it will be a problem.  He was in Boy Scouts before we moved, and it would end so late, and then — it doesn’t matter if it got over late, he still is going to have to take his wind down time or else he will lay in bed and not sleep and it will be even worse.

But I don’t want to limit his activities!  But right now it doesn’t limit anything because there’s nothing he wants to do that is at night.  

It’s awkward though sometimes when people ask me what my kids are “in” and the answer is nothing for him.  Though we are happy with how he is doing, he just isn’t “in” anything.  But there’s no point if he is too tired/overstimulated to benefit.  

 

[school17777]

14 hours ago, kbutton said:

I think the being alone for a while to unwind might be a big part of his need. The things you've said about unwinding and such sound very much like me. I need two hours of doing little to nothing every night to feel even remotely like I could sleep. I think part of it is personality--I know someone else with a very similar personality who is the same way about needing that long period of time to unwind. For me, the rest is probably not great sleep training in early life. I just didn't need sleep as a child, and my parents needed both sleep and alone time, so they put me to bed, and I would stare are the ceiling for hours. In their defense, by 18 months, I barely slept from 10 PM to 6 AM and needed no naps. I fell asleep once during the day and my mom took a picture to show that it really actually happened, lol! 

I have recently started taking melatonin before bed. I found a brand that has two layers--one for early in the night and one for later that dissolves more slowly. It's magic. I try to take it about 1.5 hours before I want to sleep. It's AMAZING to feel tired at bedtime. 

I don't think my internal clock is set late--I can do things (if I am disciplined enough) to move my bedtime both earlier or later. It really seems to be that alone time, and I really can't get that earlier in the evening with kids, lol! 

 

 

What brand of melatonin is this?

[kbutton]

On 4/6/2018 at 10:18 AM, school17777 said:

 

 

What brand of melatonin is this?

Nature's Bounty, I believe. They have regular and the bilayer tabs.