So, what is the line between poor parenting and true issues of concern?

[Guinevere]

Being a parent who lacks skills, to a point, isn't a crime. Here are some situations that caused me to raise an eyebrow. I'd love a good, deep discussion on the topic in general, not just my examples. I think it is important to tease out the nuance.

 

Please dont quote. I'll delete the examples later.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Guinevere

[rainbowmama]

The third example is the only one in which I would intervene.

[maize]

I will comment on #2:

 

I have multiple kids with poor social skills. To be honest, I had pretty poor social skills as a kid.

 

I have cousins who were extremely awkward socially as kids, as were both their parents.

 

As a family I believe we fall within the greater autistic phenotype. It's genetic.

Edited January 18, 2018 by maize

[rainbowmama]

Elaborating: I wouldn't necessarily call child protective services, but I would talk to the parent and decide how to proceed from there

Edited January 18, 2018 by rainbowmama

[Bluegoat]

As far as the examples - the first one doesn't particularly concern me unless it seems like a pattern of behaviour or seemed bizarre in the sense of there being no actual reason for that - like, the kid wasn't even being frustrating.  Lots of parents have lost their cool with a kid or pulled a kid along.  I don't think it really speaks much to parenting skills.  And IME that's not necessarily a worse way to lose your cool than some that look less alarming.

 

 

Example two could be an overwhelmed, shy person - I can't draw any conclusions.  It sounds like maybe she could use a friend.

 

Three is immediately concerning, mostly because the brother isn't doing his job.  I'd let the parents know, it may be they think he is more reliable.  Lots of 12 year olds are up to supervising.

 

Four - That is worrying, a poor family culture.  I'd tend to call it educational neglect though not necessarily in a malicious way.  Maybe that family was always going to struggle with academics - some do, even in ps.  But, I'd hate to assume that.

 

 

One thing I notice in the general case is you mention kids lashing out a few times.  I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm not sure I think it's a sign of anything abnomal.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Agreeing with others, I'm calling about the unattended baby by the side of the road. Actually, I'm pulling over, getting out of my car, and standing there to keep him safe until the police come. (That's interpreting your post to mean that the 12yo is not physically present. If he is present, I am not calling the police.)

 

The other cases? I'm unimpressed and possibly concerned but there's not enough to make a call. If I'm being honest, all I've got is bias and judgment, not facts and evidence.

 

Please back off of the "withdrawn moms" and "not clean but not filthy" children.

[Guinevere]

I will comment on #2:

 

I have multiple kids with poor social skills. To be honest, I had pretty poor social skills as a kid.

 

I have cousins who were extremely awkward socially as kids, as were both their parents.

 

As a family I believe we fall within the greater autistic phenotype. It's genetic.

Awkward by itself wouldnt hit my radar. Add violent and withdrawn, and exclusively religious, and I get concerned.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

1. Borderline. I could go either way having difficult kids. Bad day? Tantrums all morning?

 

2. Borderline. Possible poor supervision at home and learning poor ways of managing conflict.

 

3. There has to be more going on. Unsupervised 10 month old gives biggest pause. Overwhelmed mom, hopefully just needs more support. 4yo with a pocket knife doesn’t scream terrible, but given lack of supervision, probably hasn’t learned knife safety.

 

4. Hopefully not more than educational neglect.

 

In my area, in my experience, the biggest signs are parent cleanliness, if kids are clean and dressed for school, and teeth condition. If any or all of these things is even slightly questionable, there’s more going on.

 

I think the differences are in parent acceptance of needing to learn. I’ve learned and grown for sure. Looking back on dd’s first 3 years, I sure as hell could’ve done better, and wished I’d been taught. But then ds was born and didn’t go with the flow of young mom, so I learned.

[Guinevere]

Not pocketknife, large kitchen knife...

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Ugh.  Those are hard.  An unsupervised 10mo and 4 yo with a knife probably would need a call, though I might ring the bell first.  

 

I guess I would have to evaluate whether or not the trauma to the entire family of a CPS investigation is more or less damaging than allowing the parenting to continue.  

 

In your scenarios, there is just too much background we are not privy to.  

 

While I'm not proud of it, I've certainly "dragged" one of my kids by the shoulder before, usually it's a bit of frazzle/sleep deprivation and a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back type situation.  This may well be the case for the coach.  If she isn't doing it to the other kids on the team, she clearly realizes it's not "appropriate", but few parents are perfect.  

 

For 2 and 4, I would not presume to know about disabilities just on the basis of "they don't look disabled".  

[Guinevere]

By lashing out, I mean hitting other children, throwing things at them, knocking them down on purpose (kids doing the hitting are upper elementary or middle school), screaming at other kids. Also, separately,talking about death or killing oneself often. I forgot about that one.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Not pocketknife, large kitchen knife...

Even having a knife loving boy here... hell no.

 

*Maybe* if the 4yo with the knife was the only part of the picture; he could have grabbed and ran. But 10mo + older kid not supervising sounds like a good bit of neglect.

 

My knife lover got his first tiny pocket knife around 6. Never ever played with kitchen knives. Didn’t get a decent sized knife until 12, and that was because it looked cool and it hangs in his room.

[Guinevere]

For the record, I intervened in none of the cases. I did take the knife away, and watch the baby until the dad showed up. He seemed embarrassed, so I let it go.

 

My point is that these are borderline situations, and we are flaming people in that other thread for not reporting red flags. I agree you have less background about these situations than I do, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear something weird about family #2. Would I be blamed because I decided they looked clean and fed, I'd not say anything?

[mykidsrmyjoy]

Why would "very religious family" (used in examples 2 and 5) even factor into the situation? We are a very religious family and I think the examples you gave are evidences of very poor parenting. Does being very religious automatically make someone a bad parent? I'm not trying to be ugly at all, just want to point out that your choice of words sounds biased and unwarranted to me.

 

Edited to remove quote.

Edited January 18, 2018 by mykidsrmyjoy

[Bluegoat]

By lashing out, I mean hitting other children, throwing things at them, knocking them down on purpose (kids doing the hitting are upper elementary or middle school), screaming at other kids. Also, separately,talking about death or killing oneself often. I forgot about that one.

 

Kids that age doing that are a problem, they need to learn some way to manage it.  It might not have anything to do with the parenting though.

 

If the death stuff is from the same kids, I'd tend to put it more to yanking people's chains or copying what they'd heard elsewhere than real intent.  That kind of talk is a very effective way to garner attention.

[Guinevere]

Why would "very religious family" (used in examples 2 and 5) even factor into the situation? We are a very religious family and I think the examples you gave are evidences of very poor parenting. Does being very religious automatically make someone a bad parent? I'm not trying to be ugly at all, just want to point out that your choice of words sounds biased and unwarranted to me.

 

Because it is being considered a marker for the 13 kid family in the other thread. And because in #4 They are a Bodie whoever family. Return of the daughters, I think?

 

Also adding that the mom in family in #2 will only befriend people in their religion, and will hardly speak to those outside of it.

 

Very religious doesn't equal poor parenting. But educational or medical neglect because of religion is something that does occur, and is a difficult constitutional conversation.

 

And please don't quote.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Guinevere

[Guinevere]

So with the conversation started, what and when would you report. What might you do first? How do you *know*?

[Mrs. Y]

Lots of sobering thoughts. There really is no one thing that is glaringly indicative of an ongoing, serious problem. We all have our biases and preferences, our own set of limitations and expectations. It makes spotting a real problem tough.

 

Sometimes it takes investing in people who you ordinarily aren't naturally drawn to so as to find out if there are needs that need to be met. That's not always easy or practical.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think the first thing the parents need is community examples, support, and maybe a little peer pressure.

Just like toddlers, they might not know what to do instead.  Just like toddlers, you can sometimes respectfully come along side of someone, alone, and 'have a word', and that's where I would always start.

 

The first example I found extremely disturbing.  I would hope that I would be able to go and talk to the coach about it, putting it in terms of how this is unacceptable treatment of any child, not just hers.  But I admit that I would probably in the case just pull my kid and complain higher up.

 

Second one, I'd convey what to do instead to the kids, in the moment.  Over and over if necessary.

 

Third one, would depend on the roads.  Are we talking about driveways through a large property, lightly travelled with attentive drivers?  Or actual streets?  If the former, I'd go take the knife away and keep an eye on the 4YO.  I'd watch for future incidents and generally be a 'there' adult in that situation for a while before deciding to act.  If the latter, I would take the knife, hold the 4 year old's hand while taking him back to the house, describe what I observed factually, and say that the 12yo needs more specific instruction to be able to be responsible--maybe a babysitting class.  I'd call the police if I ever saw something like that again.  That's life and death, on several levels.  But kids used to run a lot freer, and in some places they still do.

 

Fourth--I'd have the daughters over a lot, maybe try to hire them a bit so there's a good reason to do so, wouldn't argue about their parents with them but would have good music playing in the background, talk about books I was reading, talk about the parable of the talents, the general capabilities of the Proverbs 31 woman, etc.  I could do this in the context of being a good steward in my home, and a conservative Christian, so I think I would carry some weight in that fashion.  I would be able to casually model and talk about other models of self-educators like my grandfather, who had to drop out of high school to take care of his widowed mother but who sounded extremely well-educated from reading and thinking his whole life.  I might engage the parents, and I might not.  It would depend largely on whether I thought I could stay calm in doing so, which is iffy as this is a real hot button of mine.  

[Carrie12345]

An unsupervised baby is unacceptable and counts as neglect.

 

As for the rest, I’m worried about your bias against large families and religion.

[Mrs. Y]

She was playing devil's advocate by injecting those elements, I think. They are biases other people tend to cite as clues.

[Guinevere]

She was playing devil's advocate by injecting those elements, I think. They are biases other people tend to cite as clues.

Yes, my own family is a religious large family, of two generations.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Guinevere

[Lang Syne Boardie]

She was playing devil's advocate by injecting those elements, I think. They are biases other people tend to cite as clues.

  

Yes, my own family is a religious large family, of two generations.

This is baiting, in my opinion. Very poor internet etiquette. Now I am not sure what the intent of the thread is, Guinevere. Are you trying to find out what people might think of families that you are currently concerned about (or judging), or do any of the families actually represent you?

 

If you are concerned that your family's unique needs or situation, that are being appropriately handled, might bring unwanted judgment or CPS calls to your door, I can advise another way to bring that up on these forums: Ask if other families here have had similar concerns.

 

Because the answer is yes.

[Guinevere]

 

This is baiting, in my opinion. Very poor internet etiquette. Now I am not sure what the intent of the thread is, Guinevere. Are you trying to find out what people might think of families that you are currently concerned about (or judging), or do any of the families actually represent you?

 

If you are concerned that your family's unique needs or situation, that are being appropriately handled, might bring unwanted judgment or CPS calls to your door, I can advise another way to bring that up on these forums: Ask if other families here have had similar concerns.

 

Because the answer is yes.

Nope, you have me pegged wrong.

 

I explained why I included the part about very religious. Staying away from other people and not educating children because of religious beliefs are a very important part of this conversation.

[Lecka]

I have only got any experience with number 2. I would speak to the kids when I was there and see what response I got. I would try to be nice too but just — I don’t want this behavior while I’m at the playground.

 

If they behaved when I was there that would be fine with me.

 

If they refused to listen to me or said they would go tell their mom I was mean and get their mom to come tell me off — I would drive my kids to a playground with nicer kids.

 

My kids are old enough now that I would have to consider putting them in supervised after-school programs if this was the alternative, because they are old enough that I shouldn’t need to monitor them at the playground. I did monitor them when they were younger and I did say things to older kids at times.

 

I have known people who put their kids in supervised programs not because they want to, but because of situations like this and their kids being too old to want their parents at the park, and no younger siblings to provide an excuse to be there.

 

There are other choices like supervising when my kids didn’t want or need it, but I doubt I would choose that. I would choose driving for better, encouraging kids to come to our house, or a supervised program. I would realistically probably choose a supervised program if there was a nice one my kids would like, have a lot of unstructured play, etc, but have the supervision there and ability to follow through on behavior issues by suspending or expelling kids.

[Carol in Cal.]

I finally saw where this thread came from, and I think it's important.

 

If we are going to be 'the community' and help prevent abusive situations, it's good to think through what those would look like.

 

The SoCal case did involve a lot of community members that pretty much missed what was going on or that didn't do anything strong about it.  How do we help prevent that kind of thing from falling between the cracks?

[Crimson Wife]

Nope, you have me pegged wrong.

 

I explained why I included the part about very religious. Staying away from other people and not educating children because of religious beliefs are a very important part of this conversation.

 

Usually when there is discussion about "not educating children because of religious beliefs" it doesn't amount to ACTUAL educational neglect. What is being called "neglect" is simply a decision to educate daughters for a life as a homemaker rather than providing university prep curriculum. I ABSOLUTELY disagree with that sexist mentality, but it is NOT "neglect".

 

True educational neglect would be leaving a child illiterate and unable to do basic math to a pre-algebra level. A teenaged daughter who can read, write, and do 8th grade math may not have had a very good education, but she isn't suffering from actual neglect.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Usually when there is discussion about "not educating children because of religious beliefs" it doesn't amount to ACTUAL educational neglect. What is being called "neglect" is simply a decision to educate daughters for a life as a homemaker rather than providing university prep curriculum. I ABSOLUTELY disagree with that sexist mentality, but it is NOT "neglect".

 

True educational neglect would be leaving a child illiterate and unable to do basic math to a pre-algebra level. A teenaged daughter who can read, write, and do 8th grade math may not have had a very good education, but she isn't suffering from actual neglect.

 

 

I personally think it is neglect.  HOWEVER, if the Amish are allowed to do it...then what is the argument really? 

[scholastica]

Usually when there is discussion about "not educating children because of religious beliefs" it doesn't amount to ACTUAL educational neglect. What is being called "neglect" is simply a decision to educate daughters for a life as a homemaker rather than providing university prep curriculum. I ABSOLUTELY disagree with that sexist mentality, but it is NOT "neglect".

 

True educational neglect would be leaving a child illiterate and unable to do basic math to a pre-algebra level. A teenaged daughter who can read, write, and do 8th grade math may not have had a very good education, but she isn't suffering from actual neglect.

 

Really? That’s not the basis for the high school exit exam most kids have to take these days. So, if someone isn’t educating to that very minimal exit standard, I think we could make a case that their education has been neglected.

[Guinevere]

Really? That’s not the basis for the high school exit exam most kids have to take these days. So, if someone isn’t educating to that very minimal exit standard, I think we could make a case that their education has been neglected.

In the particular situation I mentioned, the daughters were barely educated to a 3rd grade level.

[TechWife]

Really? That’s not the basis for the high school exit exam most kids have to take these days. So, if someone isn’t educating to that very minimal exit standard, I think we could make a case that their education has been neglected.

My state doesn’t have a high school exit exam. In any case, a homeschool chooses their own curricula, so no, choosing different educational goals s not neglect.

[Crimson Wife]

In the particular situation I mentioned, the daughters were barely educated to a 3rd grade level.

 

That does sound like neglect and I would be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of superfundamentalists who don't believe in college for their daughters would agree. How is a wife supposed to be a good household manager if she doesn't have mastery of middle school math concepts like fractions and ratios (needed in cooking), percents (needed for shopping), etc.?

 

[Crimson Wife]

My state doesn’t have a high school exit exam. In any case, a homeschool chooses their own curricula, so no, choosing different educational goals s not neglect.

 

My state no longer has a high school exit exam for PS students. There is the High School Proficiency Exam for students who would like to leave school at 16 (the compulsory age is 18 unless the student has passed the CHSPE). That tests very basic algebra and geometry. So maybe a bit more than 8th grade math but certainly not university prep level math.

[AimeeM]

You've deleted the examples, but I really hope I would only intervene if I sincerely feared for the child's physical safety. Period. No gray area, there. Keeping in mind, of course, that this would include situations of such serious neglect that it would almost definitely impact the child's physical wellbeing.

 

Educational neglect? Not even on my radar.

Medical neglect? I would have to know the actual definition of the term before answering. I'm not going to call on friends and family who refuse vaccinations (although I know others who do consider that neglect) and I'm not going to call on family members who, typically, preference alternative care (holistic, chiropractic, etc.). I would consider the medical neglect a direct danger to the child's wellbeing if, say, I knew the child was very, very sick and the parents were refusing medical care. Actually, first I would try to find out why they were refusing it, and if it's something I could help with (transportation, money, etc.) I would do so -- whereas, if it is because they do not "trust" doctors or anything of that nature, it may warrant intervention.

 

My parents were therapeutic foster parents. A sickeningly large number of very traumatized children they received into our childhood home came to them from other foster home situations -- traumatized, abused, and neglected. 

 

Including the government in my brand of intervention is a last resort. I know what good they can do, too, so it is always an option -- but unless the child is in direct damage, I think it does more harm than good.  

[Carol in Cal.]

Regarding the third grade education thing, I would work on enrichment with the kids in an innocent living my life and including them kind of way.   I would not encourage them to resent their parents, or to look down on them, but I would pursue increasingly intricate conversations about books and life and stuff, in a really friendly, inclusive way.

 

And with the parents, I might casually mention something I read in a book about good parenting, that good parents always hope that their kids will outshine them; that that is a reflection of outstanding parenting.  In the Christian sense of the word, I would talk another time about the parable of the talents, and how we are called upon by Jesus to develop our talents, so I figure that as parents we are called upon to encourage and enable and facilitate our kids developing their talents, which is one of the reasons I homeschool.

 

I don't kid myself that this would make up for a third grade education, but I would hope that it would plant some seeds.  

Edited January 22, 2018 by Carol in Cal.