Parenting Question: How would you handle this?

[Garga]

I find it much easier to be patient with smaller children than with older ones. Now that DD12 is 12 I find myself very impatient with her (inaccurate, imo) perception of her life's woes in a way that I am not impatient with a 2 or 4 year old's perception of his life's woes. Part of this, I think, is that the complaint of a 2 or 3 or 6 year old is something I can very clearly see as her immaturity issue, not a failing on my part. For instance, I say to the 6 year old, put your clean laundry in your room. Much wailing. I don't have some internal guilt about asking her to put the laundry up, so I don't feel defensive or irritated about it - I just sympathise with the desire to not put up the laundry and largely insist that it be done anyway.

 

Once they're 10+, the complaints feel much more personal. Whhhyyyyyy don't I get to see my friends every day? Whyyyyyyy do I have do do so much of the housework? Whhhhyyyyyy are you allowed to drink caffeinated tea but I'm not? Etc. I feel guilty about these things - I wish she could see her friends more often, and that she had as few responsibilities as I did at 12 (I did basically no housework), and..well, I don't feel bad about the caffeine. But anyway, the guilt makes me snappy and defensive and much less sympathetic (even though underneath, there's obviously more real sympathy than there is for the smaller kid's woes).

My group of friends all tend to be better parents at different ages. We used to joke that B would get all the babies, because she has endless patience with babies. S would get the toddlers, because she thinks they’re cute. W would get the preschool and elementary kids and J would get the teens. It is funny how we tend to have an age that’s easier to parent or harder to parent and that age is different for us all. Under 10 is hard for me. Over 10 has been easier. But some of my friends are the opposite.

[Seeking Squirrels]

She sounds a lot like my 9yo and with her it has all come around to be serious anxiety. We have learned a lot of things that make cleaning go better. It's by no means good yet, and we all have a long way to go, but we don't have a 2 hour meltdown with screaming, slamming, and kicking anymore. 

 

* Warning. We give her a head's up before we start cleaning time or giving a big instruction. As much notice as I'm able to give, really. "Hey, tomorrow we're going to take some time to clean the playroom and school room". or "after lunch we're going to spend 15 minutes cleaning up the main level" Today we made a new "after dinner" chart with expected jobs. In writing is great for her. She can easily see exactly what is expected of her and when. This one is not a full chore system spelled out, it is only the few things that need done every night after dinner (dishes, table, sweeping...) 

 

* Spell out every step. I give her one step at a time. Clean up all the stuffed animals. Put away all the books. Legos. Doll clothes. and so on. Today we made a list like this for her bedroom so she can start taking control over this step-by-step that I usually guide her through. If the living room has gotten out of control, I'll use a jump rope or something similar and section of a bit at a time. So she is only responsible for what is enclosed. It's much less overwhelming than the whole room at once. This also gives her small accomplishments along the way, and natural spots to give her a quick jump around the room sensory break. 

 

* Scaffolding. Suddenly having to unload the dishwasher can be overwhelming. But we start doing things together so the first time she did utensils, then the next time I asked her to do cups. Then the next time plates and bowls.... Slowly until she'd done every aspect of the job. So that the first time I asked her if she could unload the whole dishwasher she was eager to take it on as a challenge, knowing she'd done all the parts of it before. 

 

* Bigger jobs. Surprisingly, she has done better if I trust her with more. If I tell her to gather all the dirty dishes from the table, she whines and drags her feet. If I ask her "Would you like to gather dishes while mommy loads the dishwasher, or would you rather work in here while I do that job?" She will often jump at the kitchen job. She will proudly (poorly, but proudly!) load the dishwasher while I gather up the dishes. Also if I word it so that it's less of a command and more of a gentle request for assistance, along with choices. "Okay, the bathroom needs cleaned today. P, would you like to help me in there, or do you think you can do it by yourself?" I'll sometimes get "OH I can do it! Watch!" 

 

I give consequence for behavior (if she screams at her sister, hits, throws...), but not for the reluctance, crying, or melting down. That stems from anxiety and needs to be resolved, not punished. 

 

...

But here's something that worked here, too: a rhyme. Have you heard the "clean up, clean up, every body do your share" song that is taught to preschoolers? I let her make up her own angry version. And I let her screech it most unpleasantly as she cleans because (for me) the end goal was for her to pick up the damn mess. A "silly" version might work better at your daughter's age /blush. My daughter sings "Clean up, clean up, it's not my mess, it isn't fair; clean up, clean up, the stupid $h!t that's everywhere." {Not one of my finer parenting tricks, but she gets it out of her system, the mess gets cleaned, and truly she bounces back to human again way more quickly than before. 

I'm so going to adopt your DD's song! It is so much better than the original! 

[EmseB]

That's really mean. I would rather have a child who did no chores at all than one who was mean to another, smaller child.

 

Esme, yours is the only four year old I've ever heard of who could handle an open-ended task like that without more specific direction. I'm not doubting that your child can do this, but I think you don't know how unusual it is. This is like a friend I know who learned to read at two thinking that his own child was behind because she couldn't read at four.

My 4yo can put toys in bins, put clothes in the laundry basket, and make a pile of stuff that he doesn't know what to do with. He does have the benefit of watching his two older brothers, but no, I don't think his abilities are all that exceptional. He's a pretty typical 4yo, although I will say way above average in cuteness. :D

 

To put it in perspective, right now I can sit with my 2yo and put duplos into a bin together until they are all picked up (until she wants to see the wonder of gravity and dumps them all out again). This activity started as a fun game at 18 months for all my kids. Fast forward two years of gradually building on this and...you get a 4yo that can do minimal sorting and pick up off the floor. It's not open ended because once everything is off the floor, they are done.

 

And even if my 4yo is an off the charts organizational genius, surely by 9 it's not asking too much to expect pick up without crying and whining.

[eternalsummer]

My 6 year old can, technically, do the laundry from start to finish, wash dishes and load the dishwasher, sweep, mop, put things away where they go, put away groceries when they come home, fold towels, clean a bathroom, vacuum, watch/entertain a baby, make simple food (peanut butter sandwiches, apples sliced with a butter knife, chips and canned tuna, etc.).  I think if we lived in a situation that absolutely required this she could probably learn to do it regularly and with a minimum of complaint.

 

The amount she can actually conceive of doing in one go, however, without a meltdown, is one part of one of the above.  So she can put clothes in the washing machine, or she can take them out of the dryer and put them up, or she can make sandwiches for the little kids, or she can pick up the living room, or she can pick up the bathroom, or she can spray/clean the bathroom surfaces, or she can put away one bag of groceries, etc. I don't know how long it would take to build up her tolerance for more than about 10-15 minutes of housework because I haven't had to do so as yet.

 

 

I do think kids adapt pretty well, generally speaking, to what is absolutely required of them.  They also (mine anyway) seem to have a very good sense of what is required vs what is not actually all that necessary.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'd try a routine because maybe the not knowing when she'll be done is stressing her out.

 

 

[LMD]

Some of mine struggle with doing a big-in-their-eyes job alone. So sending them off by themselves to work doesn't work.

 

I might try discussing with her how to break down the job into 'bite size' pieces. Then I'd put some of her favourite music on and encourage her to finish one bite per song. And I'd say she can stop after 3 songs or something, so she knows that this is a job with a finite end time.

 

I don't know how I would handle crying for hours. We tend to encourage emotional self control, so carrying on like that would receive a consequence here - but I'm not dealing with anxiety or anything so maybe don't listen to me.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Your kids don’t have kids yet. Ask any person who doesn’t have kids how to raise them and they’re full of “good ideas.†I don’t think saying to a crying 9 year old, “Just wait until you have to scrub the toilet†is good parenting.

Just throwing it out there. If it's not for you scroll on.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Paige]

 

And even if my 4yo is an off the charts organizational genius, surely by 9 it's not asking too much to expect pick up without crying and whining.

 

I agree that it is not an unreasonable expectation for a 9yo. However, it's apparently too much for this child at 9. It doesn't mean she has a pathological problem; she's simply not there right now which may make her a little behind other kids in this area but isn't necessarily a big deal. 

 

Also, FWIW, my 9yo girls have all shown signs of developing moody, sensitive, preteen, up and down emotions at that age. Ages 6-8 were pretty steady, but somewhere around 9 they became super sensitive drama queens. It could be the age. 

[rocassie]

Why the tears? Dramatics, overwhelmed, response to release "negative" emotions, etc.

 

With one of my daughters, she ONLY breaks down into tears when she is overwhelmed.  I try to have patience but I will admit that I sometimes overreact.  I go back, apologize, and then we brainstorm together to better the issue.  Bathrooms were giving us trouble.  She didn't like having to go back and "correct" problems.  I realized that she didn't quite understand all of my expectations.  We worked together maybe 3 or 4 times, and then she was good to go.  Basically I stood at the door and just instructed her.  She was happy to do what I told, and I gave her hints to help her know whether she "cleaned" all the areas.  By the last time I "supervised", I had her do one area, checked that area, gave encouragement on what she did well and gave helpful suggestions on what she missed or could do better.

 

My other daughter, cries to release stress or overwhelming emotions.  She just gets to cry and then get down to business.  I try to determine whether I just need to let her cry or address a problem.  Again, I am not perfect.  She is 10 and is in the throes of pre-puberty.  Sometimes she cries if you look at her wrong.  Patience is a virtue for a reason.  :001_rolleyes:

 

Parenting is a learning process for sure.

[EmseB]

I agree that it is not an unreasonable expectation for a 9yo. However, it's apparently too much for this child at 9. It doesn't mean she has a pathological problem; she's simply not there right now which may make her a little behind other kids in this area but isn't necessarily a big deal.

 

Also, FWIW, my 9yo girls have all shown signs of developing moody, sensitive, preteen, up and down emotions at that age. Ages 6-8 were pretty steady, but somewhere around 9 they became super sensitive drama queens. It could be the age.

Right. But the question was how to address it. In my house the answer would not be to lower expectations below the basic standard that the room be cleaned without crying. I might try to help break down the task in a calm moment, but otherwise, the carrying on would not result in more attention given or that the 9yo doesn't have to pick up the room. I outlined what I would do in previous posts assuming that the girl is otherwise capable of doing things she wants to do and needs to learn self-control and discipline to do the things that she does not want to do.

 

It is others in the thread that have been saying that not wanting to pick up a room without whining or crying is a pathological problem of anxiety or some other non-NT variety. IMO, it is exactly the age.

[Tanaqui]

And even if my 4yo is an off the charts organizational genius, surely by 9 it's not asking too much to expect pick up without crying and whining.

 

You are one of approximately two people on this thread who thinks this task is something your average nine year old can do without being taught beforehand - which this girl hasn't been, so she's already not in the group of "kids who can do this".

 

*shrugs*

 

When I'm the outlier, I hope I can see it.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Tanaqui

[EmseB]

You are one of approximately two people on this thread who thinks this task is something your average nine year old can do without being taught beforehand - which this girl hasn't been, so she's already not in the group of "kids who can do this".

 

*shrugs*

 

When I'm the outlier, I hope I can see it.

Who said without being taught beforehand? Who said she hasn't been? You're assuming this mom hasn't taught her kids how to pick up? That seems like a big assumption. Also that an NT 9yo wouldn't know where pillows go on her own couch? Or where things belong in a house where the OP said she fastidiously labels bins and organizes? I doubt she did all that and then left the kids to guess where it all belongs. I honestly can't fathom a NT 9yo growing up in a typical family home and a parent never teaching said kid how to pick up a room. I guess it's possible, but it doesn't seem to be the case based on the OP.

 

The post you just responded to was me explaining how I taught my kids to pick up. I know for a fact that I'm not the only mom out there teaching my toddlers how to pick up toys. To be honest, I don't know any basic daycare or pre-school that doesn't expect kids to clean up a small area or section of toys after they teach then where things go and how to do it.

 

But honestly, your last line reads as though you meant it to be unkind or some kind of petty jab at my self awareness. Maybe I'm reading it in the wrong tone.

Edited December 30, 2017 by EmseB

[kbutton]

(Smiling because you don't know how sick in the head I am with organization.)    No, everything has a place.   I am weird like that.  I don't bring things in unless I have a place for them.   In fact, there are even labels on the shelves/bins.   

 

Most of what she had to clean up was bits of paper left over from a craft project they were doing.   (Lots of cutting and stuff going on.)   Picking up pillows and blankets all over the floor.   Putting toys back in their designated bins.  Putting things on the shelf.  etc.

 

This book is awesome. https://www.amazon.com/Organizing-Solutions-People-Revised-Updated/dp/1592335128

 

I recommend it to tons of people, even if they don't have ADHD because it's efficient. It will drive you nuts if you like to label everything, but that is exactly why I am recommending it. You obviously know how to organize for your brain, but I would not be able to follow your system. Just knowing you have all those labels tells me that, lol! 

 

Please don't take any of this as criticism because it's not, but your daughter might be your polar opposite, and it might be that she needs to be taught to organize in a way that honors her brain, whether or not she has executive functioning issues. Quite honestly, EF issues don't dictate style of organization necessarily, just that it doesn't come naturally. This book breaks organization down into very bare bones categories, and it might not work for all EF issues. It does work if you want the organization to be super, super simple. Your organization sounds complicated to my brain (and probably perfect to someone else's).

 

Your daughter might be one of those people who need broader categories for stuff--I am not a linear thinker, and so many detailed labels would drive me batty. I am also not as streamlined as the book recommends. I did learn that my organization has to be broad, or I forget where things are, and the labels don't help when I'm looking. For instance, if I file things alphabetically, they might as well be lost. I am very visual about organization as well--I have things in magazine holders to keep them upright and scannable. If my husband turns them around to look pretty, I will be very grouchy. I tell people all the time that if I could have an "ugly" room full of shelves and bins of things I don't use daily, it would be super organized, but it wouldn't be pretty. Pretty means visual distinction is lost, and I have no cues to remind me of where something goes. I am a very verbal person otherwise, but word labels are useless to me. Makes no sense, but it is what it is.

 

My guess is your daughter needs broad categories, color-coding, pictures vs. labels, and a system that honors what she uses most to least often. Pictures of what it looks like clean (insides of bins, drawers, etc.) down to all the details in one place that doesn't change (or on the bin, basket, etc.). Picture labels might be a big help. Video instructions she can go back to might also help a lot.

 

I would guess she needs things to be visually distinct.

 

Some random suggestions for categories:

• Dolls and stuffed animals--jumbled together in one large bin that includes all the clothes and accessories
• Lego bin--maybe a small organizer inside the bin for little parts
• Box and/or binder for Pokemon cards (no idea what she's into)
• Art supply bin or a small bookcase that is just for art supplies--doesn't have to share with books
• Magazine holders for notebooks and paper (when x number are full, then she has to choose what to get rid of)
• Milk crate for books

 

You probably get the idea. Clear bins are probably her friend. Lids might not be. She might prefer to hang up clothes and use a dresser to hold craft projects. You never know. I have one kid that is super organized, but not at all traditionally so. He was kind of hopeless when he was little, but I let him find his own system (with lots of help). I have one that is super messy, and we're still working on it.

 

My parents have certain bins for certain toys, but they found that all their grandkids mix and match what they play with, so other than Legos/building sets/puzzles/games, pretty much everything goes into one big toy box. It gets picked up this way. If they want it neater, they pause now and then to sort it themselves, or they make a game of it involving everyone. 

 

For clothing and shoes, I have one child that prefers to hang everything and one that prefers to put things on a shelf or in bins. Both of them have a coat rack where they can hang loose items--coats, bookbags, jammies, bathrobe, bath towel, whatever they want. It's purged from time to time. One child's coat rack has room to squeeze in a round container between the legs, and he puts little clutter in there. Shoes go under a bed or under shelves in the closet (they are attached to the wall with just a little room underneath). 

[Alicia64]

Just my .02 -- "pick up the playroom" isn't concrete enough for a little kid. I'd be very specific and give her regular tasks like take the trash out, empty dishwasher etc.

 

Also, when I had kids that age doing house work, it was never about the actual house work. . . I was trying to teach habits, the importance of working together etc.

 

I also worked hard to help the kids make an annoying task fun. So I'd put music on while we worked or I'd set a timer and say, "see how fast you can get a, b, or c done in 10 minutes."

 

Also, I'd create regular, regular, regular habits. So one of my boys feeds the kitty every morning (not easy b/c medicine is involved). He's a super responsible kid so I trust him to include the meds etc.

 

My other son feeds the birds every morning and empties the dishwasher every. single. morning.

 

There are other "like clockwork" jobs they do -- they do them without a hassle because they've been doing them for year.

 

Re: your daughter's tears. I'd have a heart-to-heart with her at a separate time and try to find out what's happening for her. Let her know how things will happen in the future, what will be expected of her. Give her a list of six jobs and let her pick three or four. Then have her do them to a timer every single day.

 

My kids aren't perfect and I didn't mean to give that impression!!

 

Alley

[Paige]

I remember crying and crying when my room was a mess and my mom wanted me to clean it and I thought the task was too big. She would threaten to come in with a trash bag. It was scary- I doubt she would have thrown stuff away but a little kid doesn't know what to think. My dad took pity on me and would make piles in my room. He said to clean up one small pile at a time only. For some reason that made everything easy. This did not happen just once...

 

I do that with my DD now but it doesn't solve her problem. She's 10. She wants someone to sit with her while she cleans the piles. She doesn't ask for the person to help with the cleaning, but wants company or she feels sad and overwhelmed. She also knows she'll get off task if left alone. DS (16) needs a checklist and a time limit. Everyone needs something different to help get through tedious tasks. I bet DD (10) will eventually not need someone in the room or she'll be the type to have a friend on speaker phone or something while she works. DS may always need checklists and time limits but hopefully he'll make them for himself when he's older. When I clean a big messy room now, I mentally or physically still create piles and do one at a time. I don't think these accommodations are problems but rather solutions to problems and it's great when we can find what solution each person needs. My DDs 13 need nothing. I ask them to clean and they clean, but there's other areas in life with which they need extra supports. 

 

My advice to the OP is the same as before- talk to DD, find out what specifically is bothering her if you can, and try to find a solution to the root problem. The problem isn't that she is crying- it's whatever is causing the drama. Maybe it really is that she's doing it to annoy you (doubtful) but if so, why? Is she mad? Does she not understand the purpose? I can't give specific advice without knowing her and knowing her reasons.

[foxbridgeacademy]

She sounds a lot like my 9yo and with her it has all come around to be serious anxiety. We have learned a lot of things that make cleaning go better. It's by no means good yet, and we all have a long way to go, but we don't have a 2 hour meltdown with screaming, slamming, and kicking anymore. 

 

* Warning. We give her a head's up before we start cleaning time or giving a big instruction. As much notice as I'm able to give, really. "Hey, tomorrow we're going to take some time to clean the playroom and school room". or "after lunch we're going to spend 15 minutes cleaning up the main level" Today we made a new "after dinner" chart with expected jobs. In writing is great for her. She can easily see exactly what is expected of her and when. This one is not a full chore system spelled out, it is only the few things that need done every night after dinner (dishes, table, sweeping...) 

 

* Spell out every step. I give her one step at a time. Clean up all the stuffed animals. Put away all the books. Legos. Doll clothes. and so on. Today we made a list like this for her bedroom so she can start taking control over this step-by-step that I usually guide her through. If the living room has gotten out of control, I'll use a jump rope or something similar and section of a bit at a time. So she is only responsible for what is enclosed. It's much less overwhelming than the whole room at once. This also gives her small accomplishments along the way, and natural spots to give her a quick jump around the room sensory break. 

 

* Scaffolding. Suddenly having to unload the dishwasher can be overwhelming. But we start doing things together so the first time she did utensils, then the next time I asked her to do cups. Then the next time plates and bowls.... Slowly until she'd done every aspect of the job. So that the first time I asked her if she could unload the whole dishwasher she was eager to take it on as a challenge, knowing she'd done all the parts of it before. 

 

* Bigger jobs. Surprisingly, she has done better if I trust her with more. If I tell her to gather all the dirty dishes from the table, she whines and drags her feet. If I ask her "Would you like to gather dishes while mommy loads the dishwasher, or would you rather work in here while I do that job?" She will often jump at the kitchen job. She will proudly (poorly, but proudly!) load the dishwasher while I gather up the dishes. Also if I word it so that it's less of a command and more of a gentle request for assistance, along with choices. "Okay, the bathroom needs cleaned today. P, would you like to help me in there, or do you think you can do it by yourself?" I'll sometimes get "OH I can do it! Watch!" 

 

I give consequence for behavior (if she screams at her sister, hits, throws...), but not for the reluctance, crying, or melting down. That stems from anxiety and needs to be resolved, not punished. 

 

I'm so going to adopt your DD's song! It is so much better than the original! 

This is some of the best advice for this kind of situation I've ever heard.  I wish I had more patience and understanding when my kids were little.

[katilac]

My kids did get a consequence for this, we called it boot camp. 

 

Basically, if they were fairly cooperative, then they could just clean the room quickly and move on. They could also be silly and giggly and drag it out a bit, fine. But if they were uncooperative, and overly dramatic with the whining and crying, and getting nothing accomplished, they might wind up in boot camp. 

 

Boot camp meant that I would stand over them as they cleaned the room or completed the chore, and boot camp standards were high. Regular room cleaning meant picking up toys off the floor and putting them more-or-less in the correct bins. Boot camp room cleaning meant handpicking every stray thread out of the carpet. 

 

My kids were taught and scaffolded and supported in their cleanup journey. I did all the things and sang all the songs. Sometimes they were little shits, though, lol. They never got boot camp for chores they hadn't handled competently dozens of times before. It was a rarely used tool, but sometimes, sometimes, kids are little shits and mom has had enough, and everyone goes to boot camp.