Parenting Question: How would you handle this?

[TheAttachedMama]

This is sort of related to my "chore system" post earlier today.

 

Let's say (hypothetically) that you had a 9-year-old daughter who regularly breaks down in tears when you ask her to help around the house.   She still does the job, but she weeps very loudly (which sort of brings down the morale of other kids helping) and does it very slowly because she is feeling so sorry for herself.   (A quick picking up of the toys might take 2 hours because she is moving so slowly and crying.)   

 

She also sometimes does this when I ask her to do school.  (Or if I ask her to go back and correct work that wasn't done correctly.)   

 

Would you give a consequence for such behavior?   If so, what?   Would you ignore it and just stand your ground?   

 

I think a big part of the problem is that she isn't on any sort of routine with chores.   I've been sort of laid back and ask her to help when we need something done.  

 

 For example, today the kids were watching TV and playing with their Christmas toys.   I gave them warning that when their show was over, it was going to be time to help around the house.    I told my 11 year old DS to do the dishes (the hardest job imho), my 4 year old DS to wipe down the chairs and pick up shoes, and I asked my 9 year old  DD to pick up the playroom.   All of the other kids usually have a good attitude, but my 9 year old starts weeping very loudly (and it goes on and on.)  I admit it makes me mad because she has been doing nothing all day.  

 

I'm trying to think of a good consequence for such behavior.  

[HomeAgain]

I'd attack it playfully first, reading Mrs. Pigglewiggle at night and offering a black licorice the next time she blubbered unnecessarily.  (Trust me, it makes sense after the chapter)  I did this for the oldest when he was in a tattling phase and just looked up at the ceiling the next time he tattled.  He grinned sheepishly and gradually the habit subsided.

 

But the best consequence is going to be routine.  Second to that I'd probably be inclined to encourage her to rest directly after the job was done since she was so tired that the mere thought of work brought out the tears.  Go lie down, dear, I insist upon it.  You really must need it! :lol:   But then, I can be the mean mommy like that.

[rainbowmama]

Well, especially after the holidays, we often have more toys than homes for toys, so between the quantity and the lack of organization, I could see this as overwhelming. I'd probably purge a good deal of the toys: even if it doesn't feel like that much, if it's more than my kids can take care of with a good attitude, then it's too much. I often tell my kids that they have a certain amount of time to clean the room, and then afterwards, if I have to clean it, I will clean it how I want. They generally at the very least clean up what's important to them in that period of time. I often put chores before the fun thing: generally the anticipation of the show would help keep attitudes good, and it also would create motivation to get it done before the show started. 

[Sandwalker]

When my kids were young, I used to play loud music while we cleaned, and danced happily around because my dd was such a pill about chores and cleaning. She didn't actually cry, but would sulk, dramatically sigh, complain loudly about how DISGUSTING some item was, etc. So I kind of drowned her out with some Bowie or whatever.

 

She did outgrow it and actually cleans her own place without histrionics these days. :D

Edit for phone typos

Edited December 28, 2017 by Sandwalker

[OneStepAtATime]

Some children do a lot better with a routine and structure and clearly laid out expectations.  And consistency. 

 

Also, some people don't do well with a general instruction such as "clean your room".   I mentioned this type of thing in a way in your other thread regarding an Apprenticeship.  Even if something seems logical and simple and clear to an adult that has done something for years or even for a child that has done something many times, they may still be tripping up because of difficulty figuring out what to do and anxiety over not doing it right.  If they are still fighting it and struggling with it the issue may be that they have issues with organizing their thoughts for how to get something done.  I found that my kids could not easily figure out step one and two and three etc. of a chore, not because they are stupid but because they have anxiety in this area and subconsciously were second guessing and fretting.  They have weak executive function skills.  So do I.  Training them, daily, alongside me, with lots of encouragement and support, was a lot more effective than punishment.  Reread my Apprenticeship post.  It really, really helped here.

 

For the "clean the playroom" instruction I would start from scratch.  Literally.  When you are both calm, walk through each step together.  Talk to her.  Explain how you want things and why.  Even if you have done this before.  Seriously.  Do it with her several times and make certain that every single thing in the room has a designated place and she knows where that is.  Encourage her.  Praise her.  Work with her until procedural and muscle memory are in place.  This may have nothing to do with laziness and everything to do with anxiety and executive function issues.

 

Also, some kids really struggle with change.  They have trouble transitioning from one thing to another.  I would show her some grace.

 

:grouphug:

Edited December 28, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Mrs. A]

I'm not sure she necessarily needs an extra consequence. As long as you stand by what you said and make sure she follows through with the chores you've given then the length of time she spends doing them is really its own consequence in a sense.

 

If the crying and whining is incessant and really irritating you might think about possibly sending her to her room to gripe alone so you don't have to hear it, and then when she's done have her finish the chores at that time.

 

It might help to have something fun to follow up the chores to help motivate her. The other kids could have access to the fun thing as soon as their chores are done so that if she's still complaining she'll see them moving on while she's still not done. It would drive home the point that her dragging it out is only hurting her own opportunity to participate in said fun.

[TheAttachedMama]

Well, especially after the holidays, we often have more toys than homes for toys, so between the quantity and the lack of organization, I could see this as overwhelming. I'd probably purge a good deal of the toys: even if it doesn't feel like that much, if it's more than my kids can take care of with a good attitude, then it's too much. I often tell my kids that they have a certain amount of time to clean the room, and then afterwards, if I have to clean it, I will clean it how I want. They generally at the very least clean up what's important to them in that period of time. I often put chores before the fun thing: generally the anticipation of the show would help keep attitudes good, and it also would create motivation to get it done before the show started. 

(Smiling because you don't know how sick in the head I am with organization.)    No, everything has a place.   I am weird like that.  I don't bring things in unless I have a place for them.   In fact, there are even labels on the shelves/bins.   

 

Most of what she had to clean up was bits of paper left over from a craft project they were doing.   (Lots of cutting and stuff going on.)   Picking up pillows and blankets all over the floor.   Putting toys back in their designated bins.  Putting things on the shelf.  etc.

[maize]

My kids respond better to positive than negative incentives, so I might offer something as a bonus to kids who complete their jobs without complaining and within a set time frame.

[bolt.]

I think that she needs teaching, support and kindness around this growing skill. Consequences don't do much to decrease a child's sadness or increase their enthusiasm. They have a role, but I don't think this situation calls primarily for a consiquence based response.

 

Teaching would involve storytelling, parables, lectures and role playing around the basic idea that 'it's only fair that all the people in a house do some housework'.

 

This builds from a solid foundation because she (probably) doesn't usually value unfair treatment of people. It gets her values on side with your goals. (This type of teaching takes a vast amount of repetition, engagement, patience, and relentless positivity.)

 

Support would involve openly acknowledging that housework is annoying, hard, frustrating and nobody is expected to like doing it. I would plan to show a lot of unconditional empathy, and open affirmation of that perspective whenever she expressed it somewhat-acceptably. (Empathy with scripting for inappropriate expressions.)

 

Support would also involve not having to work alone, and not having to work under disapproving supervision -- but having you present as a force for positivity and instructional promoting, narrating and modeling (for the whole task at first, then weaning).

 

(I know that throws a wrench into 'all the chores at the same time' planning, and it also might sound like she 'doesn't deserve it' or 'shouldn't need it' -- but it is your most efficient step towards changing how she works.)

 

Kindness is foundational to both teaching and support. The main reason children co-operate with parents -- at all, in any aspect of life -- is because they love us and crave our approval, affection and respect. When we are unkind or just not openly expressing understandable kindness (and we are all flawed in this sometimes -- I am, and so are all the other parents I know, like and respect) we get a lot of rope 'to hang ourselves' and a lot of time to outweigh negative with positive... but, eventually, we chip away at the primary source of childhood co-operation and effort. It's important to work from kindness outward if you want to see lasting internal shifts of attitude and behaviour from children.

[TheAttachedMama]

 

If the crying and whining is incessant and really irritating you might think about possibly sending her to her room to gripe alone so you don't have to hear it, and then when she's done have her finish the chores at that time.

 

 

That has been my go-to solution.   (At least when she gets to crying about school before Christmas break.  I didn't do this today.)   The problem I have is that once she gets going, she takes FOREVER to calm down.   Hours.   Then we have to wait around for her to finish the actual job if I hold my ground which means everyone's plans for the day are ruined.  

 

Once she calms down, she will usually admit that her reaction was a bit over the top.   But in the moment, there is no reaching her.  

[Paige]

Why is she so upset? Feeling sorry for herself could be rooted in many things. Does she feel that her precious time is being wasted or is she overwhelmed by the task and the decisions involved in completing it, or something else? My DD would cry because she was lonely while doing chores.

 

I think she’s old enough to just ask her what her problem is and maybe see if you two could work out a fix together. I wouldn’t want to punish tears because I think teaching kids to bottle it up is unhealthy. I’d prefer she didn’t feel like crying in the first place.

[MotherGoose]

That has been my go-to solution. (At least when she gets to crying about school before Christmas break. I didn't do this today.) The problem I have is that once she gets going, she takes FOREVER to calm down. Hours. Then we have to wait around for her to finish the actual job if I hold my ground which means everyone's plans for the day are ruined.

 

Once she calms down, she will usually admit that her reaction was a bit over the top. But in the moment, there is no reaching her.

I would figure out a consequence that doesn't affect everyone. Like you are going to a fun place, but if she doesn't get a grip by a certain time, then she gets to sit with mom and not participate.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Firstly, has dd been taught how to do these jobs ? I know it sounds silly, but sometimes kids just don't know how to tackle 'pick up the playroom' without 1. having the task broken down into its componenet parts eg pick up the Lego and put it in the box. And 2. without having been shown the right way to do each component part.

 

So that's what I'd do first. Choose a task for her to do regularly. Break it down into parts. Teach each part. Scaffold her to do each part before letting her do the whole task alone on a regular basis. Sounds time intensive ? It is - but only on this end. It pays off in spades later.

 

Another suggestion is to switch up the way you clean up - so instead of dividing up the chores between the kids, get the kids to do all chores together. 'Everyone, we're going to pick up the playroom together! Dd, please pick up the puzzle pieces, ds, please do X. I'll do Y."

 

Anyway. Rather than consequences, I'd try these things first. It really is worth it getting buy in on chores, and I've found the above really helps. 

:iagree:  :iagree:  This was going to be my advice.  Make sure she knows how then have them all work together with you (so you can head off arguments and keep them on track).  Eventually you can bow out/work elsewhere and they can complete the chores.  IMHO 9 is to young to be wholly responsible for cleaning a playroom that she didn't entirely make the mess in.  Have DS wash dishes while she rinses, he can pick up the toys while she does pillow and then they help youngest get all the bits of paper so you can vacuum... etcetera.  

[Guinevere]

Those sound like really big jobs for those ages. Maybe try much smaller chunks at a time. Ask her to put away five things and see if she can do it before you count to 30. Just little games to build her tolerance and confidence.

[Arcadia]

The problem I have is that once she gets going, she takes FOREVER to calm down. Hours. Then we have to wait around for her to finish the actual job if I hold my ground which means everyone's plans for the day are ruined.

My DS12 whines and wails about anything under the sun. We learn to ignore and go about our day. It helps him calm down as we are not being a captive audience (YMMV). Routine and detailed instructions help. Doing school every day without a day off helps, we do an hour of school even on public holidays. DS12 whines on daily tasks like washing his own cup because he wants to annoy DS13 enough so that DS13 will do it for him instead. DS12 cries over tasks he thinks are too tedious like sorting his own clean laundry pile in which case we give instructions in steps like put away all his pants first.

[EMS83]

My DS12 whines and wails about anything under the sun. We learn to ignore and go about our day. It helps him calm down as we are not being a captive audience (YMMV). Routine and detailed instructions help. Doing school every day without a day off helps, we do an hour of school even on public holidays. DS12 whines on daily tasks like washing his own cup because he wants to annoy DS13 enough so that DS13 will do it for him instead. DS12 cries over tasks he thinks are too tedious like sorting his own clean laundry pile in which case we give instructions in steps like put away all his pants first.

 

This.   For us it's a mix of lagging coping skills and willfulness.  Very, very gradual work in progress.  I starve the bad behavior, do not allow it to lessen whatever requirements I've laid, and do not allow it to inconvenience others as much as possible.  If he's pitching a fit in the store while I'm checking out, I can't help that right then.  I can only get out of the store asap.  Preferably without people freaking coddling and mollifying him.  Not. helpful.

 

And yes, just one or two specific instructions work best for most things.  More than three and he sort of short-circuits.

[BlsdMama]

I'd attack it playfully first, reading Mrs. Pigglewiggle at night and offering a black licorice the next time she blubbered unnecessarily. (Trust me, it makes sense after the chapter) I did this for the oldest when he was in a tattling phase and just looked up at the ceiling the next time he tattled. He grinned sheepishly and gradually the habit subsided.

 

But the best consequence is going to be routine. Second to that I'd probably be inclined to encourage her to rest directly after the job was done since she was so tired that the mere thought of work brought out the tears. Go lie down, dear, I insist upon it. You really must need it! :lol: But then, I can be the mean mommy like that.

You and I must make a coffee date. I so relate to this post.

[spaceman]

That has been my go-to solution. (At least when she gets to crying about school before Christmas break. I didn't do this today.) The problem I have is that once she gets going, she takes FOREVER to calm down. Hours. Then we have to wait around for her to finish the actual job if I hold my ground which means everyone's plans for the day are ruined.

 

Once she calms down, she will usually admit that her reaction was a bit over the top. But in the moment, there is no reaching her.

I second (third, fourth) the teaching of the skills required and making things more routine.

 

Then, in the moment, I do what is suggested here. I don’t let my kids cry through their chores or school work. They go to their room and come back when we both agree they are ready to do their work. They usually apologize on their own for the over-the-too behavior. So, teaching calming skills and navigating when you are given something you really really don’t want to do is important, also.

[happi duck]

I hate doing chores alone. That was my first thought.

[Rosika]

This is sort of related to my "chore system" post earlier today.

 

Let's say (hypothetically) that you had a 9-year-old daughter who regularly breaks down in tears when you ask her to help around the house.   She still does the job, but she weeps very loudly (which sort of brings down the morale of other kids helping) and does it very slowly because she is feeling so sorry for herself.   (A quick picking up of the toys might take 2 hours because she is moving so slowly and crying.)   

 

She also sometimes does this when I ask her to do school.  (Or if I ask her to go back and correct work that wasn't done correctly.)   

 

Would you give a consequence for such behavior?   If so, what?   Would you ignore it and just stand your ground?   

 

I think a big part of the problem is that she isn't on any sort of routine with chores.   I've been sort of laid back and ask her to help when we need something done.  

 

 

Would I give a consequence? That would depend on my end goal - is it about discipline (doing what she's asked to do)? Is it about teaching a skill (learning to specific chores or school work)? A little bit of both? (In which case I'd pick one to focus on for now, and work on the other one later.)

 

If it's about discipline, a consequence here might be when x, then y. "When x (picking up toys) is done, then y (you can join us in the living room to watch a movie."  A second consequence would be one of mom's infamous talks: "Ya know, if you wept and fussed and gnashed your teeth WHILE cleaning up the mess, it'd be way more efficient and we'd both come out winners ...." followed by a boring lecture on how mom and maid both start with "m" but the similarities end there (and if she'd like proof, i'm happy to whip out a sheet of paper so she may write the definition of each ten times apiece.)

 

But here's something that worked here, too: a rhyme. Have you heard the "clean up, clean up, every body do your share" song that is taught to preschoolers? I let her make up her own angry version. And I let her screech it most unpleasantly as she cleans because (for me) the end goal was for her to pick up the damn mess. A "silly" version might work better at your daughter's age /blush. My daughter sings "Clean up, clean up, it's not my mess, it isn't fair; clean up, clean up, the stupid $h!t that's everywhere." {Not one of my finer parenting tricks, but she gets it out of her system, the mess gets cleaned, and truly she bounces back to human again way more quickly than before. 

[bolt.]

Ok, I'm never going to hear that "clean up" song without those words again! (Much better than the original!)

[displace]

My thoughts are more along the lines of learning about self regulation. Since this happens with chores and school work, I’d work it into the curriculum. Basically teaching her how to handle these situations. Zones of regulation book is a great resource but maybe too much. In general, teaching her that how we act affects others. Mom’s good or bad mood may make other people feel good or bad. How we’re acting affects what other people think about us. Reacting appropriately to the situation: is it appropriate to cry for hours about being asked to do chores, or is that more appropriate for a real problem, like a car accident? Showing her how she acts affects how others view and want to associate with her.

 

It’s possible you may consider if she has a mild social challenge or something else and may need very explicit instructions on expected behaviors, social norms, as well as explicit instructions on chores.

Edited December 29, 2017 by displace

[8circles]

I think she sounds anxious. Lots of good suggestions (the clean-up song lyrics are GOLD). I would not give this a consequence.

[Garga]

The crying for hours bit has me wondering if there’s a deeper issue going on, like a medical dx of anxiety.

 

If not, then these are the things I’d do, in a jumbled up random order:

 

Figure out what jobs need to be done daily or weekly.

At the beginning of the week, figure out who will do what of the daily or weekly jobs.

Put this in writing. I use Excel to create charts of the jobs we do and who does them.

Post those charts somewhere-on the wall or on a counter, wherever.

 

Make sure everyone knows that there will also be surprise jobs during the week as well, like if a craft is done that week that wasn’t expected, it’ll have to be cleaned up. Talk about how surprise jobs will surprise us and we’ll have to be ready to be surprised and get those jobs done when the time is right.

 

For every job that needs to be done, write instructions for each part. Here’s an example of one item on my chart (and note my kids are 12 and 15) :

 

Job: Clean Baseboards in Dining Room

Tools: White basin from tub, 5 drops of dish detergent from kitchen, yellow rag from brown cupboard in bathroom.

How:

Fill the white basin about 1/4 of the way with hot water.

Add the 5 drops of detergent.

Soak the rag and then squeeze it out super well.

Using your muscles, scrub the rag on the baseboards.

Every 6 or 7 scrubs, soak the rag in the water and squeeze it out super well and scrub some more.

Scrub around the entire room.

When done, dump the water in the tub and turn the basin upside down in the tub to drain.

Rinse the rag in clean water.

Drape over the side of the tub to dry.

 

I would give your daughter checklists like that because jobs are that complicated. I can’t just say, “Clean the baseboards,†without realizing there are actually quite a number of steps involved. From your daughter’s intense reaction, I’d assume that the job has overwhelmed her and she can’t figure out what to do. The whole job looks huge. So, if you break it down into tiny steps and let her put a checkmark next to each step, that might help.

 

Pick up papers from floor (check)

Put pillows on couch (check)

Put dolls in doll bin (check)

Put cars in car bin (check)

Etc.

 

After you’ve figured out what the weekly/daily jobs are and have provided detailed instruction on how to do them, you need to have a routine of when to do them. Some kids absolutely cannot (cannot!) handle unexpected interruptions to their leisure time. For those kids, they need to know their parameters—when is leisure time and when is work time? It doesn’t have to be tied to the clock, though it could if you want. But it ought to be tied to a before/after time. For example, “Before we eat breakfast, we dress.†You might eat breakfast at 8 one day and 7 the next and that’s fine. But we all know that before we eat breakfast we dress.

 

After we eat lunch, we ***. When the movie is over we ***.

 

And while you’re working on this, I’d stay in the room with her if possible, helping her to use the checklist. She may make this impossible if she’s crying so much. You might have to step out. Do so without a lot of drama and come back every so often to try to help her again. Do your very best to keep your emotions calm, which is hard, because she’s being very unreasonable and it’s hard to deal with unreasonable people.

 

I’ve found that once my kids knew that “this is the order we do things†and “these jobs are done every dayâ€, they didn’t fight me on them any more. It can take some time for the routine to kick in.

 

For now, I might not do any surprise jobs. I might not say to her, “Oh look, we made a mess, let’s clean it up!†if it’s not on the list. I’d just get her used to the jobs she expects and give her the list to complete it. After a few months, if she can handle jobs that are routine, then I would try springing unexpected jobs on her. For now, I’d do the surprise jobs.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Garga

[Garga]

At this point I wouldn’t punish the behavior. In fact, I’d try being gentle and sweet first before coming down hard or banishing her. Crying for that long is odd and there’s something else going on. After you set up clear instructions on how to do the jobs and set up times to do them, then I’d be loving and sweet to her about them. If you can. I know how hard it is when a child is flipping out and you want to Make It Stop.

 

My son went through a stage when he was about 9ish where he flew into rages. I didn’t handle them well at all, but my DH did. My DH would sit next to him ever so calmly and say how he knows how frustrating things are and how hard it is to feel things that are so strong. My DH never yelled at my son when he was flying into his rage. He was a calm, steady rock.

 

Over the years, I’ve learned that gentleness and compassionate words and kindness can go farther than sending kids to rooms or speaking harshly. But it’s really hard. It’s also hard to give advice online without being able to see what’s going down while it’s going down.

 

If you’ve been firm and no-nonsense in the past, perhaps it’s time to try gentle and sympathetic.

[Meriwether]

Those sound like really big jobs for those ages. Maybe try much smaller chunks at a time. Ask her to put away five things and see if she can do it before you count to 30. Just little games to build her tolerance and confidence.

She is *9*.

[eternalsummer]

This is sort of related to my "chore system" post earlier today.

 

Let's say (hypothetically) that you had a 9-year-old daughter who regularly breaks down in tears when you ask her to help around the house.   She still does the job, but she weeps very loudly (which sort of brings down the morale of other kids helping) and does it very slowly because she is feeling so sorry for herself.   (A quick picking up of the toys might take 2 hours because she is moving so slowly and crying.)   

 

She also sometimes does this when I ask her to do school.  (Or if I ask her to go back and correct work that wasn't done correctly.)   

 

Would you give a consequence for such behavior?   If so, what?   Would you ignore it and just stand your ground?   

 

I think a big part of the problem is that she isn't on any sort of routine with chores.   I've been sort of laid back and ask her to help when we need something done.  

 

 For example, today the kids were watching TV and playing with their Christmas toys.   I gave them warning that when their show was over, it was going to be time to help around the house.    I told my 11 year old DS to do the dishes (the hardest job imho), my 4 year old DS to wipe down the chairs and pick up shoes, and I asked my 9 year old  DD to pick up the playroom.   All of the other kids usually have a good attitude, but my 9 year old starts weeping very loudly (and it goes on and on.)  I admit it makes me mad because she has been doing nothing all day.  

 

I'm trying to think of a good consequence for such behavior.  

 

 

I would give her a regular chore that I expected her to do daily, ideally at a certain time.  DS9 just got put on dishes duty - he does all the dishes, all the time.  Generally he does them at the end of the day but occasionally he does them in the middle of the day if we need them done for dinner.  He also used to do the weeping and gnashing of teeth when asked on the spot to do this or that - there is much less weeping now that he knows what is expected, it's regular, it's never a surprise, it doesn't feel like an added burden.

 

The amount of work that is done by him is the same as when I had him pick up the living room one day and vacuum the basement the next and clean the bathroom the next, but it is regular work and this suits him better.

 

DD6 is just now learning to put away laundry and clean the laundry room - she puts it away when a load is done in the dryer (we don't fold).  She tends to be pretty slow and loud about it, but it's been 2 weeks or so and she does it with much less complaint now that she is sort of used to the routine and knows she has to work at it until it's done anyway, so it doesn't help to be slow or loud.

 

Kid noise largely doesn't bother me though, so there's that. If it really gets to you, maybe you can explain to her that weeping and complaining really drive you a bit bonkers and it would be much easier on everyone if she can tone it down.  In return, you won't ask her to do things on the spot as much - which tasks are her favorite?  Maybe she can pick one of those to do regularly, etc.

[J-rap]

I think I'd start by doing it with her, setting the timer for 5 minutes and racing to get it done before it went off.  Then it becomes a fun challenge, and not so overwhelming because you're helping.

[Guinevere]

She is *9*.

But she isn't acting like it. I just advocate for meeting a kid where they are and working to build the skills they lack.

[Tanaqui]

But she isn't acting like it. I just advocate for meeting a kid where they are and working to build the skills they lack.

 

Yes, but if she feels like she's being deliberately insulted and treated like a baby, this could backfire badly.

 

[Tanaqui]

TheAttachedMama, I don't think your daughter wants to cry and cry. This isn't any more pleasant for her than it is for you! I would not try to discipline this away.

 

I agree with others who suggested she could be suffering from anxiety. I also suspect that poor executive functioning may be turning what you consider a "quick" job into a nigh insurmountable one.

 

Has this started recently, or is it ongoing for a very long time? Does she act like this in other areas of life, or are there other things she does which seem unusual for a child of her age?

 

Most of what she had to clean up was bits of paper left over from a craft project they were doing. (Lots of cutting and stuff going on.) Picking up pillows and blankets all over the floor. Putting toys back in their designated bins. Putting things on the shelf. etc.

 

To me, this sounds like a much HARDER job than washing the dishes! Washing dishes: Pick up the top dish. Soap, scrub, rinse, dishrack. Pick up the top dish.... Four steps. Those steps are intuitive and repetitive.

 

But the playroom! Pick up pillows and blankets. Should I fold the blankets? Return them to their rightful spots. (Does anything have to go in the laundry? Better sniff. Ugh. Whose pillow is this, anyway?) Pick up the toys, put them in the bins. Should I start in this area and work to that area, or should I pick up all of these toys and then all of those toys? Ugh, the room is ENORMOUS it will NEVER be over. Etc. (ETC? THERE IS AN ETC!? OMG!)

 

There is no way I could have handled an open ended job like "clean the playroom" at nine years of age, not without my parents standing over me and helping.

 

When she calms down from crying, how long does it take her to do the chores at that time, and does she need help? You say she gets like this over schoolwork as well sometimes. What sort of tasks cause her to do this when it comes to schoolwork?

 

Without more information, I think the best bet is to start slow. First, give everybody a set chore that should be done at a set time every day. For this child, the chore should be very simple: Sweep the kitchen floor. Wipe the table. Fold the sheets. Nothing open-ended or complex. Tell her that you'll set a timer for no more than ten minutes. If she completes her chore within ten minutes, you might offer her a reward - a sticker chart dealio works well enough. If she doesn't, then so long as she was actually working you'll complete it for her, no questions asked. (The goal is to make it easy for her. Even if she doesn't get a reward, she's not stuck laboring for two hours.)

 

Let her know that as time goes on, you'll gradually increase the number of chores she has, and the total amount of time spent on those chores.

 

As you introduce more complex chores like "clean the playroom", you'll simplify them as much as possible. You might ask her to identify two things to pick up from the playroom, and then YOU will put them on a checklist and have her pick up just those two things, checking them off as she does so. Then you'll build up to three things, then three things "and everything on the table", and so on, never moving forward until she can handle the present level with aplomb and always helping her stay focused.

 

But this plan is hinging on the assumption that she is a typical child. If she has more severe anxiety than normal, or more serious executive functioning issues, then you may need to get help from people with experience in this matter.

[eternalsummer]

I have had success, as Tanaqui suggested, with saying to a littler one (or a more resistant-to-work one), "Look, we're all going to be working for the next 20 minutes.  If you are not done in 20 minutes, that is absolutely fine, as long as you are working with us that whole time (or until you finish, if you finish early)."  This helps with kids who really think, as a couple of mine have, that sweeping the living room is going to take 2 hours.  They actually really think that, I am sure, because when they work steadily and get it done in 10 minutes they are completely flabbergasted.  Just that sense of, "I only have to work for this shortish amount of time no matter what" seems to ease some of the anxiety about having to work FOREVER, etc.  Then once it's happened 4 or 5 times and really only takes 10-20 minutes (or 30 in the case of a large load of dishes), there's less resistance when it's time to do it again because their body knows it's not an overwhelmingly hard task after all.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I asked my kids. They have 2 suggestions

1. Have compliant kids do their chores first, then the crier. Happy kids can go enjoy themselves away from the drama.

2. Crying results in another chore. To quote my 16 yo "If this makes you cry wait until you scrub the toilet."

 

 

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[Garga]

I asked my kids. They have 2 suggestions

1. Have compliant kids do their chores first, then the crier. Happy kids can go enjoy themselves away from the drama.

2. Crying results in another chore. To quote my 16 yo "If this makes you cry wait until you scrub the toilet."

 

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Your kids don’t have kids yet. Ask any person who doesn’t have kids how to raise them and they’re full of “good ideas.†I don’t think saying to a crying 9 year old, “Just wait until you have to scrub the toilet†is good parenting.

[Garga]

She is *9*.

And crying for hours. She probably has anxiety.

 

My kids are 12 and 15 and need the jobs broken down into bits. They have ADHD and one has executive function issues.

 

You meet the child where she is from a position of love and guidance and you help them. Doesn’t matter if they ‘should’ be able to do it yet. If they can’t, then that’s the reality you work from.

[Farrar]

Seconding a lot of the things being said here. I'm not crazy organized like that, but there is a clear, usually labeled, spot for most of the things that would be out in the dining/school room and the living room and I felt that my kids should have been able to be told to "tidy up" at age 9 and they simply were not. They needed discrete tasks like clean up the paper, now pick up all the pens, now put that game away in the next room, etc. Otherwise it was overwhelming to them. Now that they're 13, they can do it on their own, but it genuinely took a little longer than I anticipated for them to get there.

 

We also have the "okay, time to get things in order, everybody pitch in" mentality with chores instead of having a specific schedule. It works fine for us, but part of it at that age (and still, sometimes, honestly) was cleaning alongside them and giving specific tasks until everything was done. I don't think this method works for all families. I think you're on the money when you say you've realized it's not right for this kid. I'd find her a set of daily tasks and let her off the hook when you do this type of cleaning. It's okay to have different systems for different kids.

 

As the parent of an anxious kid, I also second that there may be some anxiety going on from the way you describe how she's crying and miserable for so long.

[EmseB]

That has been my go-to solution.   (At least when she gets to crying about school before Christmas break.  I didn't do this today.)   The problem I have is that once she gets going, she takes FOREVER to calm down.   Hours.   Then we have to wait around for her to finish the actual job if I hold my ground which means everyone's plans for the day are ruined.  

 

Once she calms down, she will usually admit that her reaction was a bit over the top.   But in the moment, there is no reaching her.  

 

I wonder if showing her a video of her reaction would give her some self awareness of what's going on? I've also been known to put on a little show of crying and whining as I cook dinner or do things that the kids generally expect and want *me* to do and make them giggle when they realize that it is a silly way to do any kind of task.

 

To me, a 9yo carrying on about chores can be pretty normal so I wouldn't jump to anxiety or something outside of her control. I was as whiner and crier up into middle school about certain things (cleaning my room, schoolwork) so this colors my opinion, but looking back, what I needed was for someone to tell me there's "no crying in baseball" and insist on a better attitude while doing what needed to be done. I would have benefited from someone assigning more tasks for each 10 minutes that I carried on. And then seeing it through to me doing what was assigned. And then pointing out that the original task would have taken far less time if I had just done it in the first place. As it was, I sort of got left to my own devices and developed a really bad work ethic that I still struggle with to this day. But as a mom now, I can see how hard it is to stick through to making a kid do something like that and both of my parents were working long hours so it just kind of morphed into me not doing the things that caused the whining and crying, and then it would turn into a big family deal when they figured out I hadn't been doing my homework or my room finally reached epic levels of messiness.  ANYWAY.

 

But obviously she needs some help getting her emotions under control, and sometimes sending someone away because they are feeling awful only compounds the feelings and adds rejection into the mix. It is hard if her attitude is bringing down the morale of the other kids, but staying with her (praying with her, talking with her) may help her feel that she isn't being sent away because of her attitude, but that her attitude is something that does need to be changed and the work does need to be done. Maybe she needs to know that we all have certain ways of being ugly sometimes and we don't send family members away for being ugly, but we stay with them and help them to change their attitudes. I would think differently if you said being alone helped her get herself together, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Certainly, if she needs help seeing small bits of her task, then maybe make a list of things to do for each room when she's asked to "clean up this or that". But also, I think just kindly but firmly insisting the work be done and without whining or crying and implementing some small task consequences to show that not crying and whining is beneficial for her in the long run too would be helpful.

 

This is what I would do for myself at that age, obviously YMMV.

[Meriwether]

And crying for hours. She probably has anxiety.

 

My kids are 12 and 15 and need the jobs broken down into bits. They have ADHD and one has executive function issues.

 

You meet the child where she is from a position of love and guidance and you help them. Doesn’t matter if they ‘should’ be able to do it yet. If they can’t, then that’s the reality you work from.

Absolutely you meet a kid where they are. So, training and scaffolding are good for any kid for any job when it is necessary. But it is an appropriate task for a 9 year old to be doing.

[EmseB]

Absolutely you meet a kid where they are. So, training and scaffolding are good for any kid for any job when it is necessary. But it is an appropriate task for a 9 year old to be doing.

 

Yes. My 4yo can pick up a common room. He doesn't know where everything goes and can't reach to put everything away, but he can tidy a room and make a pile of things he can't put away himself.

 

I'm not saying he does it cheerfully every time or that their aren't issues related to wanting to pick up because he's 4, but expecting a 9yo to do basic pick up in a room that already has organizational systems in place without crying is not demanding too much of a kid.

[Guinevere]

I've had 3 9yo, and none of mine could clean a whole playroom. They could work for hours at specific tasks, given one or 2 at a time, but not deal with a big mess. Dd12 can do it with ease now.

[bolt.]

My 13 yo still cries sometimes when a task looks really big in her eyes, or when she perceives it as 'unfair' (even to a small degree), or when it conflicts with something particulary desirable, or when the timing seems arbitrary (or surprising, or demanding), or if the chore is given with any sense that she is being blamed, shamed or punished.

 

I don't think there needs to be a goal of ending all crying over chores -- sometimes chores suck. Kids don't always hold back their tears over them. The trick is that emotions matter, but they don't need to stand in the way of doing good work.

[Alice]

I also wonder about anxiety or executive function issues. My middle son has ADD and he would often have those kind of crying fits over school or sometimes cleaning/chores. He’s 11 now and it’s been awhile since he’s done that but I think at 9 he still would occasionally get like that. I do think part of it for him was frustration. He’s not good at organizing and he knows it and he feels frustrated by it. He loses stuff and always makes a mess and doesn’t want to be that way but is. He also gets frustrated with school when it’s taking longer than it should. Added to that, his personality is basically to just want to have free time. He hates schedules or doing anything anyone tells him. So whenever there is something he has to do...he hates it. It’s gotten much much better in the last 1-2 years and he’s more self-aware as he’s matured. He’s also a wonderful, quirky, outside the box, sweet, funny kid. I say that because he has been the most difficult for me to parent and teach and it helps me to remember all the good things in the middle of the frustration. 

 

No way could my son have cleaned a playroom on his own without a lot of direction. It would have overwhelmed him. Even now, he is not good at that kind of thing. Just yesterday, I told him he needed to clean his room which was a pit after Christmas. So instead he hired his sister to do it. She is 8 and did a way better job in a much quicker time than he would ever have done. He said it was the best $5 he every spent. :) 

 

 

Some things that helped...

-When he would go into the crying fits, I would just leave him alone in his room. I would tell him that I loved him and that if he needed me I would be there but that I was going to let him get it under control. It really helped him to have a space to just go and be mad and upset. 

 

-With chores, I let them choose what they want to do. It always surprises me what they are willing to do. My daughter likes cleaning bathrooms, for some odd reason. She also likes organizing and putting things away. My middle son hates sweeping after dinner but will vacuum with a smile. Why, who knows? The floor is clean though, so I’m fine with it. The oldest hates to vacuum but will happily wash windows. Occasionally, there are times when someone has to do a chore they don’t like but it does help that most of the time they can choose. 

 

-Some kids like to do things together. My daughter is like that. She will work harder if we are all doing the same thing. Sometimes for efficiency, it’s not possible but if it is it works better. So in your example, maybe everyone cleans the playroom, then you go to the kitchen and all work in the kitchen together. That also might help with “It’s not fair, this job is harder than the others†feelings. 

 

 

-

[EmseB]

I've had 3 9yo, and none of mine could clean a whole playroom. They could work for hours at specific tasks, given one or 2 at a time, but not deal with a big mess. Dd12 can do it with ease now.

 

I definitely have a "if you can take it out and make a mess with it, you can put it back the way you found it" mentality.

 

Seriously, they can build and play for hours and hours doing very intricate tasks and coming up with creative forts, systems of organization in said forts, elaborate stories and villages with all kinds of toys. Toys that came out of specific bins and have a place so that no one kills themselves trying to get to the utility room or guest bedroom.

 

They "can't" clean the room because they don't want to because it's not as fun as the other stuff. But it's not because they aren't able. If they weren't able to get the toys out and play with them in a NT way, I might believe that clean up is too much for them to handle.

 

ETA: I fully admit it is difficult to do things we don't want to do and kids do need help with that. But if they've been in a playroom playing with stuff and removing it from bins and creating with said stuff, I generally don't give much sympathy to falling apart and "I caaaaan't" when it's time to clean up. Generally I tell them that it is hard to do things we don't want to do and Mom has trouble with this too, but we still have to do them.

Edited December 29, 2017 by EmseB

[bagel270]

Whining and complaining about a chore gets another chore here. Regularly assigned chores would probably help though. Maybe she would rather do the dishes.

[fralala]

How do I handle something like this? Badly, often. A cautionary tale. (Has a kid ever said, "Hey, you're right, Mom. If I just quit bellyaching and did this task, it would take less than five minutes. Thanks for pointing that out to me." No, there's nothing like superior reasoning to make an irrationally upset kid more defiant.)

 

However, I've found it works really well after I've been impatient and intolerant and less than understanding (and my kid has been at her worst, too) to give it some time, find a time when we're both in a decent mood, join her for whatever she's doing (like plunking myself on my tummy next to her on the floor and drawing), and eventually saying, "You really didn't want to clean up earlier." Then I let her get everything off her chest without getting mad, and I occasionally scribble down notes, and then we can problem-solve, often with some cathartic silliness involved.

 

I do the same thing for schoolwork, too. I mean, the only way to really get at the root of what's going on is by talking about it. Otherwise I'm afraid sometimes we parents end up punishing (or "giving consequences") for behavior when the true reason for the behavior goes unidentified. If you're like me, you will think about a scene like this six months or a year or five years from now and feel an overwhelming compassion for your child that is often difficult to find in the moment, when this kind of fit can be so frustrating. (Especially when you begin worrying, as I am wont to do too soon, that it is a sign of a character deficiency rather than a temporary problem.)

[Tanaqui]

2. Crying results in another chore. To quote my 16 yo "If this makes you cry wait until you scrub the toilet."

 

That's really mean. I would rather have a child who did no chores at all than one who was mean to another, smaller child.

 

Esme, yours is the only four year old I've ever heard of who could handle an open-ended task like that without more specific direction. I'm not doubting that your child can do this, but I think you don't know how unusual it is. This is like a friend I know who learned to read at two thinking that his own child was behind because she couldn't read at four.

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Tanaqui

[Garga]

How do I handle something like this? Badly, often. A cautionary tale. (Has a kid ever said, "Hey, you're right, Mom. If I just quit bellyaching and did this task, it would take less than five minutes. Thanks for pointing that out to me." No, there's nothing like superior reasoning to make an irrationally upset kid more defiant.)

 

However, I've found it works really well after I've been impatient and intolerant and less than understanding (and my kid has been at her worst, too) to give it some time, find a time when we're both in a decent mood, join her for whatever she's doing (like plunking myself on my tummy next to her on the floor and drawing), and eventually saying, "You really didn't want to clean up earlier." Then I let her get everything off her chest without getting mad, and I occasionally scribble down notes, and then we can problem-solve, often with some cathartic silliness involved.

 

I do the same thing for schoolwork, too. I mean, the only way to really get at the root of what's going on is by talking about it. Otherwise I'm afraid sometimes we parents end up punishing (or "giving consequences") for behavior when the true reason for the behavior goes unidentified. If you're like me, you will think about a scene like this six months or a year or five years from now and feel an overwhelming compassion for your child that is often difficult to find in the moment, when this kind of fit can be so frustrating. (Especially when you begin worrying, as I am wont to do too soon, that it is a sign of a character deficiency rather than a temporary problem.)

This is exactly my story! Oh, how I cringe when I think of some of the ways I handled things in the past. I rarely actually screamed or punished, but I was certainly less than gracious and I’m sure there was sarcasm and impatience shown to my children.

 

In the moment with small children, it is SO HARD to be patient and understanding. Now that mine are older, it’s easier. They don’t fling themselves to the floor and kick their heels and wail. They have rationality. So, when they’re suddenly giving me pushback about something, we can all usually pause in the moment and figure out what’s going on. When they’re younger and completely falling apart, there’s pretty much nothing you can do in the moment. Being silly makes them madder, being firm makes them crumble, being sympathetic can also backfire. Sometimes only silence and waiting it out works in the moment.

 

If I could relive my children’s smaller years knowing then what I know now, I’d know to create routines for almost everything right away. From age 1 forward. I’d know to work side-by-side with my little ones from the get-go. I’d know to write up little happy checklists so we could check things off together. I’d know to talk about issues that flip them out later.

 

I know my mother and MIL also feel this way just by thinking back to their body language and very occasional comments that “they’re just little†when my kids were falling apart over something and I was doing my very, very best to be a good parent and teach them how to control their emotions by being firm and logical with them. Now when I see a parent with littles I want to be like a grandma and say, “Just love on them! Just be gentle and kind and sweet to them!†I know you can’t always do that. Sometimes you really must be firm and strong, but if I could do it over, I’d err on the side of trying to be as patient as I could and speak as gently as I could.

 

But I know how hard it is when they’re crying for hours. Especially like how fralala said that you start to fear it’s a character issue that has to be address and not something that will pass with some time.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Garga

[happi duck]

The Sidetracked Home Executives chore system has you time how long tasks take because even adults with housekeeping experience overestimate how long chores will take and then avoid the task.

 

If a child is feeling lonely in the work and anticipating that it will take a long time it can feel like banishment.

 

I really hate doing chores alone.

[eternalsummer]

I find it much easier to be patient with smaller children than with older ones.  Now that DD12 is 12 I find myself very impatient with her (inaccurate, imo) perception of her life's woes in a way that I am not impatient with a 2 or 4 year old's perception of his life's woes.  Part of this, I think, is that the complaint of a 2 or 3 or 6 year old is something I can very clearly see as her immaturity issue, not a failing on my part.  For instance, I say to the 6 year old, put your clean laundry in your room.  Much wailing.  I don't have some internal guilt about asking her to put the laundry up, so I don't feel defensive or irritated about it - I just sympathise with the desire to not put up the laundry and largely insist that it be done anyway.

 

Once they're 10+, the complaints feel much more personal.  Whhhyyyyyy don't I get to see my friends every day?  Whyyyyyyy do I have do do so much of the housework?  Whhhhyyyyyy are you allowed to drink caffeinated tea but I'm not?  Etc.  I feel guilty about these things - I wish she could see her friends more often, and that she had as few responsibilities as I did at 12 (I did basically no housework), and..well, I don't feel bad about the caffeine.  But anyway, the guilt makes me snappy and defensive and much less sympathetic (even though underneath, there's obviously more real sympathy than there is for the smaller kid's woes).

[Ausmumof3]

This is sort of related to my "chore system" post earlier today.

 

Let's say (hypothetically) that you had a 9-year-old daughter who regularly breaks down in tears when you ask her to help around the house. She still does the job, but she weeps very loudly (which sort of brings down the morale of other kids helping) and does it very slowly because she is feeling so sorry for herself. (A quick picking up of the toys might take 2 hours because she is moving so slowly and crying.)

 

She also sometimes does this when I ask her to do school. (Or if I ask her to go back and correct work that wasn't done correctly.)

 

Would you give a consequence for such behavior? If so, what? Would you ignore it and just stand your ground?

 

I think a big part of the problem is that she isn't on any sort of routine with chores. I've been sort of laid back and ask her to help when we need something done.

 

For example, today the kids were watching TV and playing with their Christmas toys. I gave them warning that when their show was over, it was going to be time to help around the house. I told my 11 year old DS to do the dishes (the hardest job imho), my 4 year old DS to wipe down the chairs and pick up shoes, and I asked my 9 year old DD to pick up the playroom. All of the other kids usually have a good attitude, but my 9 year old starts weeping very loudly (and it goes on and on.) I admit it makes me mad because she has been doing nothing all day.

 

I'm trying to think of a good consequence for such behavior.

I'm not sure if this is true for you but my kids often really struggle with picking up and organising whereas they are better and more willing with other chores.

 

I wonder if you could do a team approach where you all work together to tackle on job at a time rather than delegating separate jobs. My kids don't have great ef skills so it works better if we tackle one thing at a time and I give specific small tasks rather than one big one.