Advice from college advisor

[Bootsie]

I hear a lot of people comment that their children have received poor or incorrect advice from their college advisor.  If you have experienced this, what has this advice been?  To not take a required class in sequence? To take a class that wasn't required?  To take the incorrect class?  Something else?

 

When I was in college, all registration for classes would occur in the two days before classes.  Students read the catalogue, went to their advisor with a list of classes, which was briefly checked (Mostly spotting classes that students were not taking classes for which they didn't have prereqs or to OK a student taking more than 18 hours).  Then students went into the gym to get the cards for their classes--when the cards for that class were gone the class was closed.  

 

I just attended freshman orientation with DS; almost every student there was waiting to hear about AP scores to know if they placed out of classes.The university had not received many high school transcripts yet.  So, much of the advising and registration process revolved around, let's see what we think you will need to take with this major that you think you want and when you get your AP scores it will all probably changed...  In some ways this seems much less efficient than the old-fashioned, low-tech process.   

Edited June 29, 2017 by jdahlquist

[regentrude]

Coming from the other side: there are things an inexperienced advisor simply does not know. I have been advising our majors for several years and am working together with an experienced advisor who has been doing this for many decades, and I am constantly learning new things he knows that are vital for the students. Stuff like this:

 

 

Chem 2 is required for our major and only offered Tuesdays and Thursday afternoons. Students need to take the course during the early years, even though it is not a prerequisite for anything, because the four semesters of required upper level lab for majors are during the same time slot

 

Certain courses are only offered in fall semesters, others only in spring semesters. certain electives come around only every four years.

 

Of courses A, B and C, only two should be taken at the same time because of the work load. Best combination is A+C because of the material.

 

Course A can be substituted for the course B requirement, just ask the advisor and we can fill out a form.

 

Subject X courses A and B both count for the major. A is check the box, B is when you actually want to learn the material.

 

If you want to take Philosophy of Science as your upper level humanities requirement, note that thos has a prerequ of intro to philisophy which must be fulfilled in an earlier semester to be eligible to take the course.

 

All these things are little nuggets of information that can make a big difference for students to graduate on time, because they affect their long term planning. Any advisor can look at the degree audit and figure out what courses the student still needs, but helping the students plan an efficient sequence that actually works requires a lot of forethought and long term thinking inexperienced advisors won't have.

Edited June 29, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Also, advising for double majors is notoriously difficult. We ran into this with DS, whose advisor for the primary major never had seen a student interested in his second major and did not know anything about it. DS went in prepared (we did a pre-advising session at home, correlating the degree requirements for both majors), but ended up not getting into one class that would have been important for him to stay on sequence. Granted, there were additional scheduling constraints, so this may have been the best possible outcome, but I don't know whether an advisor knowledgeable about the other degree as well might not have given different advice. (It is what it is and will work out)

 

In our department, we send double majors to a second advisor in the other department as well.

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by regentrude

I hear a lot of people comment that their children have received poor or incorrect advice from their college advisor.  If you have experienced this, what has this advice been?  To not take a required class in sequence? To take a class that wasn't required?  To take the incorrect class?  Something else?

 

 

Some colleges have major-specific advisers composed of faculty in that department.  Other colleges, especially for undecided majors, or maybe for underclassmen, have general purpose full-time advisers, staff who aren't faculty.  I think a lot of problems can happen when being advised from the latter category, as there is no way any one person can understand all the details of all programs in a college or university of any size.

[regentrude]

Some colleges have major-specific advisers composed of faculty in that department.  Other colleges, especially for undecided majors, or maybe for underclassmen, have general purpose full-time advisers, staff who aren't faculty.  I think a lot of problems can happen when being advised from the latter category, as there is no way any one person can understand all the details of all programs in a college or university of any size.

 

Absolutely, There is NO WAY a non departmental advisor has any insight into things like the ones I mentioned in my post above.

they can work off the boiler plate schedule recommendation, but as soon as the student does not fit this cookie cutter model, they cannot give sensible advice. It simply is not possible and not their individual fault.

Edited June 29, 2017 by regentrude

  In some ways this seems much less efficient than the old-fashioned, low-tech process.   

 

I, too, went through the old-fashioned, low-tech process, where we walked around to different buildings to register for classes in those departments.  What I now appreciate about that process is that you talked to a live human being (usually a TA) for every class, in your major or not, that you were about to take.  And even though those TAs weren't bona-fide advisors, they all knew their particular department well, and could give useful, though last-minute advice about what to take, or not to take.

[Kassia]

My kids' advisors were totally useless.  I suspect they were overwhelmed with too many students.  One advisor told my ds "you're a smart kid, you'll figure out what to do" when he had a question about a class.  My other ds had an advisor would never respond to his emails or follow up with what she said she would do.  It was extremely frustrating - especially after being told on college visits that honors students had the best advising.  Totally false.  Fortunately, my three oldest did graduate in four years (they all attended the same university and had similar bad experiences with advising).  

[Bootsie]

My kids' advisors were totally useless.  I suspect they were overwhelmed with too many students.  One advisor told my ds "you're a smart kid, you'll figure out what to do" when he had a question about a class.  My other ds had an advisor would never respond to his emails or follow up with what she said she would do.  It was extremely frustrating - especially after being told on college visits that honors students had the best advising.  Totally false.  Fortunately, my three oldest did graduate in four years (they all attended the same university and had similar bad experiences with advising).  

I am curious about what types of questions your children had that they couldn't get responses from advisors. 

[Bootsie]

I, too, went through the old-fashioned, low-tech process, where we walked around to different buildings to register for classes in those departments.  What I now appreciate about that process is that you talked to a live human being (usually a TA) for every class, in your major or not, that you were about to take.  And even though those TAs weren't bona-fide advisors, they all knew their particular department well, and could give useful, though last-minute advice about what to take, or not to take.

You point to a subtle, but major, change in the process.  Now students talk to a bona-fide advisor in their major (depending on how the particular university structures advising) but only that one person, perhaps missing valuable information that others could provide.

 

I now work at a university where advising is handled by staff rather than faculty.   Of course, students will talk to professors they know regarding questions they have about majors and careers, but that is on an informal basis.  In the past I worked at a university where faculty did advised each student each semester.  I would meet in March with a student to schedule classes for the fall semester. Inevitably, students would say that they were doing fine in the courses they were taking that semester, were planning on taking a CLEP test in the upcoming weeks and were confident that they would pass, and were planning to take several classes in summer school.  We would get them signed up for fall classes based upon that wishful thinking only to have the student drop a spring semester class, not take the CLEP test, not take summer classes, or change majors by the fall.  So, much of the advising ended up being incorrect by the fall.  Going to orientation with DS, I realized how much, even as they come in as freshman, advising is being done with an incomplete information set.

[regentrude]

I would meet in March with a student to schedule classes for the fall semester. Inevitably, students would say that they were doing fine in the courses they were taking that semester, were planning on taking a CLEP test in the upcoming weeks and were confident that they would pass, and were planning to take several classes in summer school.  We would get them signed up for fall classes based upon that wishful thinking only to have the student drop a spring semester class, not take the CLEP test, not take summer classes, or change majors by the fall.  So, much of the advising ended up being incorrect by the fall.  

 

We get the complete midterm grades at the beginning of advising week, so we see whether students are on track to pass their classes, or are struggling and need to be advised for the case that they fail. 

With respect to summer classes, there is only so much one can do at March advising. If it's a student where it looks doubtful whether he can pass summer, we develop alternate scenarios.

 

Also, at our school, the students sign up online for their courses, after the advisor has lifted the advising hold when the student completed his appointment. There is nothing to prevent a student from signing up for completely different courses. They are free to disregard any advice we give them.

 

I agree that freshmen advising is intrinsically difficult if the AP scores and summer class grades are not available, but I don't see any way to work around it. But then, not much damage is done if the freshman semester is not perfectly set up; that tends to be recoverable for almost any student.

[klmama]

As regentrude explained above, advisors only know so much.  Students need to go into their advising sessions with at least some idea already of what courses are needed for their gen ed requirements and for their major - usually that can be found online or in the departmental handbook.  Colleges often post a sample 4-year schedule to give the student an idea of what can be taken when.  Students need to know as much as they can before meeting their advisor so they can ask good questions.  There's no guarantee of getting good answers, but going through the process of figuring out a working schedule and multiple class options beforehand will make the process go a lot more smoothly.

 

Since advisors also won't likely know all of the professors from all of the departments or exactly how their classes work, I think it's also a good idea to take a look at ratemyprofessors.com beforehand to get a better idea of what to expect from the different professors. The numerical ratings are not always accurate, but we've found the students' comments from the most recent semesters to be very helpful regarding how accessible, reasonable, and challenging a professor is, as well as regarding the use of technology, group projects, required outside events, and frequency of tests, pop quizzes, etc.  Semesters my dc have checked that site beforehand, they had terrific instructors and courses that matched their online descriptions perfectly.  One of my dc transferred to a new college and didn't check the site beforehand; after dc had some frustrating instructors there, I looked at ratemyprofessors.com, and the very negative descriptions other students had posted matched my dc's negative experience.  Lesson learned.     

[regentrude]

ETA: at our school, students who do not meet the prerequisite for a course, but plan to take it over the summer, need to get permission numbers to hold their spot. They must present evidence of passing the course by a deadline two weeks before the beginning of the semester; this is checked, and any student who failed will not be permitted to enroll. It is a very cumbersome system and places a large burden on the people doing the emailing and checking (the two large enrollment courses in our department have each 500+ students)

[creekland]

We've had no problem at all with undergrad advisers at any of my boys' schools, but massive problems with Pre-Med advising for middle son in that they told him (and others) 100% incorrect information.  I'm not sure that's what you're looking for on this thread though.  Their regular advisers were just fine - quite knowledgeable with their jobs and making sure my boys could do what they wanted from Study Abroad to double majoring/minoring.

You point to a subtle, but major, change in the process.  Now students talk to a bona-fide advisor in their major (depending on how the particular university structures advising) but only that one person, perhaps missing valuable information that others could provide.

 

 

Forgive me for continuing to not answer your original question, but there's something important here.  I think there's still all kinds of informal sources of valuable information at college, but it is on the individual student to go out and find this information, and evaluate how accurate or applicable it may be.  Making connections with upperclassmen, especially in your major, can be very useful.  A major-related club can be a great way to do this.  Having conversations with professors that don't just revolve around grades and test scores is another.  Graduate students and TAs can often be veritable founts of knowledge.  In some places, the departmental secretaries know more about what is going on than anyone.  Obviously, your advisor is a big part of the picture, but the more people you talk to, the better view you get of that picture, but the student has to take the initiative to find this information.

[regentrude]

 Making connections with upperclassmen, especially in your major, can be very useful.  A major-related club can be a great way to do this.  Having conversations with professors that don't just revolve around grades and test scores is another.  Graduate students and TAs can often be veritable founts of knowledge.  In some places, the departmental secretaries know more about what is going on than anyone.  Obviously, your advisor is a big part of the picture, but the more people you talk to, the better view you get of that picture, but the student has to take the initiative to find this information.

 

To be fair, none of these resources are available to incoming freshmen who needs to sign up for courses over the summer.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I have nothing to add.  My oldest dd will be a freshman in the fall.  I am so stressed about this very topic though.  I am glad you asked.  I am all ears.  She is starting to book bag for classes and the process for signing up for classes seems daunting. 

[regentrude]

I have nothing to add.  My oldest dd will be a freshman in the fall.  I am so stressed about this very topic though.  I am glad you asked.  I am all ears.  She is starting to book bag for classes and the process for signing up for classes seems daunting. 

 

Here is what you can do:

Look at the list of required courses for the majors. This will contain coursework in the major, core requirements, major electives, free electives.

A good starting point is to pull up the sample schedule for her major. This is a four year plan of a typical course sequence that will get students to fulfill all requirements. It is not set in stone; students don't have to adhere to this very sequence.

If she signs up for the courses listed for the freshman semester of the sample schedule, that cannot be totally wrong.

 

Next, identify any courses where she has AP or DE credit. Look at the articulation agreement on the college website to see which earns credit for what course. Identify these courses in the requirements/sample schedule to know where she has wiggle room.

 

Relax. Doing the standard boilerplate course selection for the first semester cannot hurt.

Edited June 29, 2017 by regentrude

[Kassia]

I am curious about what types of questions your children had that they couldn't get responses from advisors. 

 

 

Mostly simple ones.  For example, one son came in with transfer credit and his degree audit didn't show a class that he was supposed to get credit for.  The advisor said she would get it done, but MONTHS went by and she never did.  He finally went to a different advisor in the dept. and she got it done within 24 hours.  This was typical.  

 

This was an email he received from his faculty advisor when he asked a scheduling question (students are told they must meet with faculty advisors): 

 

I will recommend that you talk with the undergrad advising office.  I am not on top of all requirements, and would hate to give you wring advise.  

 

 

My other son asked about a class he started that had a prerequisite that he found out about on the first day of class.  He hadn't taken the prerequisite and asked his advisor about it and that's when she told him he's smart and would figure it out.  

 

My oldest son's major came from a combination of two colleges within the university.  While he was there, they made the scheduling switch from quarters to semesters, which affected degree requirements.  That was a nightmare because the advisors from each college did not agree on requirements and gave my son different answers on what he needed to graduate.  

Edited June 29, 2017 by Erica H

[Ann.without.an.e]

Here is what you can do:

Look at the list of required courses for the majors. This will contain coursework in the major, core requirements, major electives, free electives.

A good starting point is to pull up the sample schedule for her major. This is a four year plan of a typical course sequence that will get students to fulfill all requirements. It is not set in stone; students don't have to adhere to this very sequence.

If she signs up for the courses listed for the freshman semester of the sample schedule, that cannot be totally wrong.

 

Next, identify any courses where she has AP or DE credit. Look at the articulation agreement on the college website to see which earns credit for what course. Identify these courses in the requirements/sample schedule to know where she has wiggle room.

 

Relax. Doing the standard boilerplate course selection for the first semester cannot hurt.

 

 

She wants to double major and she will need to really work hard to get her classes in and double major at Duke.  DD sees the list of classes but there are so few slots left in the classes she needs and so many kids to fill those slots that she is pretty sure she can't in to the classes she needs.  Is this process this hard at all schools?

[Bootsie]

She wants to double major and she will need to really work hard to get her classes in and double major at Duke.  DD sees the list of classes but there are so few slots left in the classes she needs and so many kids to fill those slots that she is pretty sure she can't in to the classes she needs.  Is this process this hard at all schools?

I don't know about Duke, but some schools will hold out a particular number of slots for freshman in each orientation group.  So, what looks like a full, closed class online many not actually be full.  

[regentrude]

She wants to double major and she will need to really work hard to get her classes in and double major at Duke.  DD sees the list of classes but there are so few slots left in the classes she needs and so many kids to fill those slots that she is pretty sure she can't in to the classes she needs.  Is this process this hard at all schools?

 

Depends. There are typically processes in place that dole out course selection slots in order of "urgency" - sometimes seniors first, sometimes students who take the course in the scheduled semester first, etc. Signup apointments may be released in a staggered manner.

 

If a class she needs shows up as full, she should contact the professor and ask what to do. Sometimes departments have wait lists. Our large foundational courses usually fill up, and then we have a wait list, and our department usually manages to accommodate everybody. 

People drop courses all the time (it's crazy how in flux the class lists are until a few weeks in). Additional sections may get openend. Professors may allow students to enroll on the first day of class by signing an Add slip and simply raising the cap when they have physical seats in the class. There are often ways, and it is important for a freshman to know that. 

 

A double major is always difficult to fit into the four year time slot, depending on the overlap. Our students typically take longer when they do a double major. OTOH, DD is scheduled to graduate within four years with a double major in completely unrelated subjects, at a school that requires an extensive core. It can be done. She should make appointments with the academic advisors of both her departments to figure out a strategy.

Edited June 29, 2017 by regentrude

[daijobu]

Some of your student's best advisors will be other students, in his class or older students who have already gone down his path.  I wish I had learned this sooner.  

 

In particular, some rules are not really rules, and other students can tell you which is a hard rule and which is soft.  For example, as freshman we were assigned to different sorts of Western Culture courses.  I was very disappointed in the class I was assigned to, and for completely different reasons, it wasn't a good fit at all and I did poorly in the class.  Had I spoken to more informed students, I might have learned that I could have petitioned out of the class (by simply drawing a line through my preprinted list of courses and writing in the class I really wanted).  

 

Ask lots of questions of the students and RAs around you.  They can be your best resource.  

 

[elegantlion]

At my school, undecided students are advised by academic advisors who are non-departmental specific. If you express an interest in a major, you can sit down with someone from that department. Faculty complete advising for the majors and while our department is very thorough, I've heard varying stories from other departments. 

 

I've always went in with questions and prepared and advising has made a huge positive difference in my experience. Our college makes it easy to find and print major forms, so it's easy to see what classes you need. They've added a pre-advising shopping cart online, so you can select your courses and see various schedules for different sections. To actually register you have to get a PIN from your advisor and in a couple of clicks, you're done. 

 

Make sure your student knows what resources are available for them. We have a planning tool that shows us exactly what courses are credited where and what courses we need. My advisor slots an entire hour, instead of the standard 30 minutes, per student. He takes the time to help the student and discuss goals, which is how I opted to do majors honors instead of a second minor. 

 

They also have a planning tool to help set out schedules for the entire 4 years. I was using it with ds recently as he's trying to decide on adding another major or minor(s). The non-specific department is also willing to do that with students who have already declared a major. 

 

I also advise ds to really read the university catalog. Know what classes have pre-reqs and when classes are offered. Also, be sure to check with the advisor or department if unsure, not all classes may be offered when the catalog suggests. 

[Clemsondana]

Some of it depends on the requirements of the college. When I was an undergrad, we had a book with our plan of study. We were guaranteed that there would be classes available to fit the requirements if we stayed on schedule...so we did. Usually the only thing that we needed to learn from our advisors was to double-check whether something filled a certain requirement. But, that was usually clearly spelled out in the plan of study (humanities requirement fulfilled by courses in engl, psych, soc, hist, or flng, at least 12 hours must be 300 level or above). For me, the only question involved how many band (marching, symphonic) hours could be counted. We sometimes got major-specific advice - I was advised to switch from a science elective in bacterial genetics to cell biology because, based on my interests, it was more applicable.

 

When I went to grad school, I watched profs try to advise undergrads. That college had a lot of non-major requirements. You had to take a course that focused on...I don't remember what they called it, but something about under-represented groups? So, genetics faculty would have to try to figure out whether 'women's lit' or 'asian history' fulfilled that requirement. It was much more complicated than knowing that you needed to get through 'intro to psych' at the 200 level to take the required number of 300 level classes. Because course offerings change from year to year, they couldn't just list specific courses to take. Sometimes you'd find upperclassmen in a panic because they needed to fulfill that sort of requirement and they had been mis-advised. Usually the faculty did a decent job of classes within their field, though, and if they were unsure they would check with the undergrads and grad students in their lab, since we were often taking or teaching the classes and could give specific recommendations.

[*LC]

Coming from the other side: there are things an inexperienced advisor simply does not know. I have been advising our majors for several years and am working together with an experienced advisor who has been doing this for many decades, and I am constantly learning new things he knows that are vital for the students.

I agree that an experienced (and caring/competent) advisor is important. In my kids'department, the advisors are not faculty members. There are general advisors for freshmen and then students move on to an advisor specific to the major. The advisor for their department had been in that role for years and knew all the ins/outs. She was very patient with my oldest when she decided she was interested in doing a second semester abroad. This would have meant taking her last semester of classes through a different university's abroad program. The advisor didn't laugh; she looked at the info my daughter sent and told her which classes to work to fulfill the remaining requirements. (The advisor is retiring, but is working part-time with her replacement.)

 

My freshman received advice from the freshman advisor that didn't make sense, but I don't think it would have caused any real trouble longterm. He was told to take two math classes fall semester rather than a math and the next class in his major. Since students actually register themselves online, he simply registered as he wanted.

[J-rap]

The problems my kids had revolved around the correct scheduling of classes.  For example, taking specific prerequisite classes during certain semesters so that when another required course is needed a year later but offered only in the spring, they will have already taken the prerequisite for that already which is also offered only in the spring. Or when the final two classes for their double majors are only offered in the spring during the same time slot.  Or when a class is only offered every other year.  These are all situations that my kids caught on to eventually, but they were too inexperienced at first and relied on their advisors too much.  

 

It was a lot less complicated when I was in college! 

[Guest]

She wants to double major and she will need to really work hard to get her classes in and double major at Duke. DD sees the list of classes but there are so few slots left in the classes she needs and so many kids to fill those slots that she is pretty sure she can't in to the classes she needs. Is this process this hard at all schools?

xIts individualized at both my dc's schools. If the student has declared the double major, the advisor has the power to claim a reserved seat in a nonmajor course. They wont if there are alternatives. If its a course for the major, nonmajors are seated after declared majors. If its listed as full, the advisor has the power to add another person as they don't fill every physical seat at prereg. Also, the advisor can waive or substitute courses...that takes official documentation and the student needs to hang on to his copy as advisors may no longer be employed at the campus when the student applies for graduation.

 

What you have to watch for is required courses given in summer term only..ds has a friend affected by that,but since he knew about it he was able to arrange off campus housing inexpensively and grab a part time job.

 

Definitely read the fine print.

 

And one other thing....have the resume done before classes begin. Some employers do open applications for summer jobs in the fall.

[G5052]

It's going to depend on how the school handles it.

 

I can tell you that at the local community college, the job of "counsellor" is a revolving door. When I was a professor there, they never stayed more than a year or two. When they got a really good one, they inevitably moved up to a better job within the college. You have to see a counsellor to register.

 

So when mine began registering, we planned out a tentative schedule and went with things printed out from their website and the 4-year they feed into. We also took ALL of their college test scores and a high school transcript to every appointment. I always went along and had my teen take the lead, but there was ALWAYS something I knew that the counsellor didn't know. Or we had been told something had been resolved previously when it hadn't.

 

I could write a book. Every advising session showed how little they knew.

 

DS graduated in May (top business graduate), and we somehow got DD registered. The one we saw this round had only been on the job for two weeks.

[dirty ethel rackham]

The problems my kids had revolved around the correct scheduling of classes. For example, taking specific prerequisite classes during certain semesters so that when another required course is needed a year later but offered only in the spring, they will have already taken the prerequisite for that already which is also offered only in the spring. Or when the final two classes for their double majors are only offered in the spring during the same time slot. Or when a class is only offered every other year. These are all situations that my kids caught on to eventually, but they were too inexperienced at first and relied on their advisors too much.

 

It was a lot less complicated when I was in college!

This was our issue as well. At small achools, it can be especially difficult because even intro classes in a sequence are only offered certain terms. K went in with two of their intro physics courses credited, but the third one in the series was only offered spring term (trimesters.)

 

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