Not going out with opposite sex without spouse

[QueenCat]

I have had to share rooms with co-workers.  Usually someone I didn't even know (big nationwide company).  Same sex, but once a roommate [married with kids] brought her boyfriend up.  It was most awkward for me.  :p

 

 

That would be awkward!

[Slartibartfast]

What bothers me most about that is that those posts are examples of women defending oppressive patriarchy.  It more than bothers me.  It disgusts me.  Et tu Bruta?  Et tu?

 

Has there been a, "person dressing slutty," thread lately? 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Slartibartfast

[FaithManor]

Has there been a, "person dressing slutty," thread lately? 

No, and actually I was just a little bit shocked that there wasn't one after that headline about United Airlines putting two girls off a flight for wearing leggings. Not even certain if that was true or just something that went around the net since I never researched it, but after the leggings one a few years ago about the TSA guy berating a teen because he didn't like what she was wearing, I honestly thought there would be a hive kerfuffle, LOL.

[FaithManor]

I have had to share rooms with co-workers.  Usually someone I didn't even know (big nationwide company).  Same sex, but once a roommate [married with kids] brought her boyfriend up.  It was most awkward for me.  :p

 

YOWZA awkward!

[Bluegoat]

Which in and of itself is ridiculous. We should shut down the gossipers and tell them they're stupid for assuming two professionals meeting = hokey pokey. We should change our base assumption that men and women working together is something lurid that needs to be highly structured to avoid evil.

 

Yes, I agree.  That is what I would do.  I'm probably most sympathetic to people being worried about their reputation though in politics - people are so ready to take anything about a political figure they don't like and twist it around. It could concretely damage that person and it would just be so unpleasant. In a way though this controversy is a bit like that - it's taking a really old comment from someone, without much context, and using it to paint an unappealing picture of the person.

[Caroline]

No, and actually I was just a little bit shocked that there wasn't one after that headline about United Airlines putting two girls off a flight for wearing leggings. Not even certain if that was true or just something that went around the net since I never researched it, but after the leggings one a few years ago about the TSA guy berating a teen because he didn't like what she was wearing, I honestly thought there would be a hive kerfuffle, LOL.

The United Airlines thing was because they were flying using their parent's employee tickets. Employees and their families have a dress code for using the employee tickets. The girls weren't dressed to code. Delta has rules for its employees, too. They have relaxed from the days when they had to be dressed up, but there are rules.

[FaithManor]

The United Airlines thing was because they were flying using their parent's employee tickets. Employees and their families have a dress code for using the employee tickets. The girls weren't dressed to code. Delta has rules for its employees, too. They have relaxed from the days when they had to be dressed up, but there are rules.

Okay. So it was a real thing. I had no idea, and never checked any reputable news sources.

 

At any rate, I kind of thought there would be a thread, but there wasn't.

[zoobie]

The United Airlines thing was because they were flying using their parent's employee tickets. Employees and their families have a dress code for using the employee tickets. The girls weren't dressed to code. Delta has rules for its employees, too. They have relaxed from the days when they had to be dressed up, but there are rules.

 

Delta's twitter attempt to capitalize on the situation was so disingenuous! 

[Bootsie]

For me it is just a standard of conduct between the sexes. It is a very simple principle which acknowledges the potential for problems of all kinds. Misunderstandings, a spouse with hurt feelings, the impression of impropriety, one party or both parties developing inappropriate feelings, and yes at the very worst end of the potential for problems is an affair which even if does not destroy a family at the very least damages a marriage and the conscience of the guilty party.

 

I have been watching the old Dick Van Dyke shows from the 1960's--remember that the married couple had twin beds.  However, there are a number of times on the show where men and women (who are not married to each other) are alone working together, having dinner together, etc.  Yes, sometimes the plot was that it led to misunderstandings--humorous misunderstandings that could be laughed out.  I haven't seen one episode (I haven't watched all) that the conclusion was to set a rule that the spouse couldn't be alone with the opposite sex to avoid these types of situations. 

 

I have also known many situations where couples are friends, doing things as couples together, only to find out that one of the wives and one of the husbands is having an affair. The friendship, attraction, curiosity developed while the couples were interacting as couples.

[SKL]

I have been watching the old Dick Van Dyke shows from the 1960's--remember that the married couple had twin beds.  However, there are a number of times on the show where men and women (who are not married to each other) are alone working together, having dinner together, etc.  Yes, sometimes the plot was that it led to misunderstandings--humorous misunderstandings that could be laughed out.  I haven't seen one episode (I haven't watched all) that the conclusion was to set a rule that the spouse couldn't be alone with the opposite sex to avoid these types of situations.

 

Comedy shows usually follow that pattern.  Every crisis resolved and everybody happy before the credits.  Nothing so serious that it can't be laughed off.  The whole point being an escape from real life.

[Bootsie]

Comedy shows usually follow that pattern.  Every crisis resolved and everybody happy before the credits.  Nothing so serious that it can't be laughed off.  The whole point being an escape from real life.

I think comedy shows can be much more than escape from real life.  They can be a way of exploring some of our issues and values.  They can be an insight to societal values.  They can provide us with new ways of looking at issues and new strategies for handling crisis.  I acknowledge that real life is more complex and complicated than a 30-minute sitcom. 

[QueenCat]

No, and actually I was just a little bit shocked that there wasn't one after that headline about United Airlines putting two girls off a flight for wearing leggings. Not even certain if that was true or just something that went around the net since I never researched it, but after the leggings one a few years ago about the TSA guy berating a teen because he didn't like what she was wearing, I honestly thought there would be a hive kerfuffle, LOL.

 

It was true BUT the girls were flying on employee nonrev passes, which have dress code requirements. Normal for airlines to have dress codes for nonrevs.

[Audrey]

No, you can't control them but you can also avoid putting yourself in a situation where you have to shoot someone down. Especially a workmate where had the "shutting down" conversation never came to a head you wouldn't have a future awkward as hell working relationship.

 

 

So, one must adjust one's behaviour just in case someone else is tempted to act inappropriately?  Hmm...  victim blaming?  All right then, perhaps Mr. Pence and his ilk might consider attiring in burquas so as to further reduce any unwanted attentions. 

[heartlikealion]

So, one must adjust one's behaviour just in case someone else is tempted to act inappropriately?  Hmm...  victim blaming?  All right then, perhaps Mr. Pence and his ilk might consider attiring in burquas so as to further reduce any unwanted attentions. 

 

YOU don't have to do anything. I just said what some people do is based on the knowledge that their actions don't only affect them. It's not really adjusting behavior if that's not the way you intended to behave in the first place. If I was still single I wouldn't go to lunch with a married man alone (I'm sure there's some exception even for me, but this is just as a rule of thumb for me). This didn't change because I got married. But that's just me.

 

As I said in another post (not sure which thread, getting them all mixed up) sometimes someone gets shot down and then things are incredibly awkward in the workplace from that point forward. Maybe for some it's about avoiding drama by never setting up a scenario where people grow close together one on one and someone makes a move or airs their true feelings. If you think avoiding lunch pals is the drama, then that's your prerogative. To each their own.

[Audrey]

YOU don't have to do anything. I just said what some people do is based on the knowledge that their actions don't only affect them. It's not really adjusting behavior if that's not the way you intended to behave in the first place. If I was still single I wouldn't go to lunch with a married man alone (I'm sure there's some exception even for me, but this is just as a rule of thumb for me). This didn't change because I got married. But that's just me.

 

As I said in another post (not sure which thread, getting them all mixed up) sometimes someone gets shot down and then things are incredibly awkward in the workplace from that point forward. Maybe for some it's about avoiding drama by never setting up a scenario where people grow close together one on one and someone makes a move or airs their true feelings. If you think avoiding lunch pals is the drama, then that's your prerogative. To each their own.

 

 

I said "one."  I did not say "me" or "you."  I said "one."  As in anyone.  To suggest that anyone should change their behaviour to avoid unprovoked attacks, flirts, come-ons, etc.  is victim blaming.  Buying into the victim blaming mentality is perpetuating it, which is a far more shameful thing to do than dealing, in an adult-like manner, with a bit of 'drama.' 

[heartlikealion]

I said "one."  I did not say "me" or "you."  I said "one."  As in anyone.  To suggest that anyone should change their behaviour to avoid unprovoked attacks, flirts, come-ons, etc.  is victim blaming.  Buying into the victim blaming mentality is perpetuating it, which is a far more shameful thing to do than dealing, in an adult-like manner, with a bit of 'drama.' 

 

As I said it's not a change in behavior if you wouldn't do it, anyway. Many women would not choose to carpool with a married man. Their choice to do that is their choice and you can call it victim blaming if you want but maybe others would call it pragmatic. It doesn't mean they actually think they will be hit on but rather they are doing it for the comfort level of everyone involved. Going out to eat without any regards to third parties (spouses of dining pals) could also be called "shameful."

 

[TechWife]

No, you can't control them but you can also avoid putting yourself in a situation where you have to shoot someone down. Especially a workmate where had the "shutting down" conversation never came to a head you wouldn't have a future awkward as hell working relationship.

 

 

I don't mind putting someone in their place if they need it. Believe me, in the case of sexual harassment, I would do every thing in my power to make sure that conversation would "come to a head," as you put it. The poor behavior of some people (or even one specific person) does not dictate what I do or do not do with my time in either personal or professional settings. I refuse to let other people control me.  Personally, I wouldn't feel awkward at work at all if I had to tell a male colleague to keep his hands to himself or to otherwise stop coming on to me. He may feel awkward, but that's on him. Like I said in an earlier thread, I'd report said colleague to HR and if there was a crime committed, to the police. People get away with bad behavior because they are not held accountable for it. 

 

Before anyone jumps up and says "You don't know how you would really react in this situation," I can assure you that I can and have stood up to male bullies behaving badly and lived to talk about it. It's time to woman up. 

[TechWife]

Ok. Good to know. My husband spent two weeks in England last year with three other male coworkers and they spent all their evenings walking to different pubs together and the weekend visiting tourist places, besides being in the same meetings all day. Slept in the same room. He had trouble getting time to talk to me. But I'm glad that's not always the case, especially with opposite-sex trips.

 

That would drive my husband absolutely batty. When my husband is in European countries, he spends the full day working, then after he eats dinner, puts in several more hours on the phone with his co-workers and clients in the US because, due to the time difference, they are in the middle of their workday. He effectively works nearly 1 3/4 work days every 24 hours when he is there. 

 

Regular business travel is highly over-romanticised. 

[TechWife]

Not all four, but they had two rooms. I think they all agreed to that to get the hotel they wanted in the pub district that was otherwise full.

 

They made a lot of choices to accommodate their desired after work hours activity, then. They spent that much time together by design, not requirement. My husband is never required to share a room and his company finds hotels for them accordingly. If accommodations can't be found, the trip is rescheduled. 

[SKL]

Well if it's victim blaming to avoid things, then victim blame me all day long since I lock my doors, instruct my kids to not go in other peoples' homes/cars/backyards without my knowledge, avoid sharing specific personal info, don't leave my wallet or checkbook around for other people to snatch, don't show most of my body parts, don't touch or get very close to men if I can avoid it, don't walk in high-crime neighborhoods at night, and lots of other things.

[Scarlett]

Well if it's victim blaming to avoid things, then victim blame me all day long since I lock my doors, instruct my kids to not go in other peoples' homes/cars/backyards without my knowledge, avoid sharing specific personal info, don't leave my wallet or checkbook around for other people to snatch, don't show most of my body parts, don't touch or get very close to men if I can avoid it, don't walk in high-crime neighborhoods at night, and lots of other things.

Yes. I am scratching my head at how the phrase victim blaming is being used. A victim before you are a victim. Because you avoided a situation in a manner that angers some people.

[heartlikealion]

I don't mind putting someone in their place if they need it. Believe me, in the case of sexual harassment, I would do every thing in my power to make sure that conversation would "come to a head," as you put it. The poor behavior of some people (or even one specific person) does not dictate what I do or do not do with my time in either personal or professional settings. I refuse to let other people control me.  Personally, I wouldn't feel awkward at work at all if I had to tell a male colleague to keep his hands to himself or to otherwise stop coming on to me. He may feel awkward, but that's on him. Like I said in an earlier thread, I'd report said colleague to HR and if there was a crime committed, to the police. People get away with bad behavior because they are not held accountable for it. 

 

Before anyone jumps up and says "You don't know how you would really react in this situation," I can assure you that I can and have stood up to male bullies behaving badly and lived to talk about it. It's time to woman up. 

 

We are not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about avoiding getting to the point where someone feels comfortable enough to make a move, air a crush or giving them more opportunities to do this outside of the eyes of fellow employees. Besides, we were talking about eating out lunch with male coworkers off site I thought. If the move was made, it might happen off site. I guess you could still report that to HR but I don't know if it would be a work-related complaint if it wasn't a work assigned meal. Your word against theirs, too if they denied it.

 

People are not always straight forward. It could be very subtle. Like you're gonna tell HR that John Doe gazed into your eyes too long at the Chinese lunch buffet and you got really uncomfortable. You can complain or address it with him, but if you have to work with that person it can still be awkward even if you stood up to them, complain about them, addressed it etc.

 

As I said, the people that choose to avoid these situations are probably not changing their behavior. So please don't think we are all letting everyone "dictate our lives." Odds are we are doing this for the comfort of ourselves as well as others. Yes, I feel more comfortable NOT eating out alone with a married man. I said that is how I felt when I was single, too.

[TCB]

It's always interesting where people draw the line between victim blaming and taking sensible precautions to avoid problems. Do those of you who feel that no one else should influence what one chooses to do never lock doors or keep track of purses etc? It seems like, on these threads, it's only called victim blaming if the topic discussed is a hot topic for them. Why is it not victim blaming if someone locks their door etc. The things those precautions are taken for are illegal or wrong. I'm not trying to be snarky. It's just tiresome that so often, along comes the bandwagon and on they jump. It's hard to have a proper conversation about some things because of that.

[heartlikealion]

Well if it's victim blaming to avoid things, then victim blame me all day long since I lock my doors, instruct my kids to not go in other peoples' homes/cars/backyards without my knowledge, avoid sharing specific personal info, don't leave my wallet or checkbook around for other people to snatch, don't show most of my body parts, don't touch or get very close to men if I can avoid it, don't walk in high-crime neighborhoods at night, and lots of other things.

 

I had similar thoughts as well. I feel like I could suggest a jogger to wear light reflective clothing and I'd be called a victim blamer.

 

[Bootsie]

Well if it's victim blaming to avoid things, then victim blame me all day long since I lock my doors, instruct my kids to not go in other peoples' homes/cars/backyards without my knowledge, avoid sharing specific personal info, don't leave my wallet or checkbook around for other people to snatch, don't show most of my body parts, don't touch or get very close to men if I can avoid it, don't walk in high-crime neighborhoods at night, and lots of other things.

Locking doors can be prudent to keep people who are uninvited and specifically have harmful motives in mind from entering.  I do not think it would be prudent, however, to keep my doors locked and bolted all of the time.  I don't keep my door locked and refuse to have a party at my home because some guest might choose to steal from me and then it would be uncomfortable for me to confront that or because the person may mistake my invitation and think that means that they can move into my house.  I don't refuse to unlock the door to let the repairman in, because I am concerned that he will steal from me.  I don't feel the need to hide my wallet when I am around invited guests.  

[SKL]

Well you do what you feel comfortable doing, but if I avoid certain situations because I don't want to deal with things that HAVE happened to me in the past, then I don't think that makes me some kind of bad or sick person.  It just means I won't be doing xyz.  There are so many things I can do instead that are social, helpful, etc.

Edited April 4, 2017 by SKL

[TechWife]

We are not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about avoiding getting to the point where someone feels comfortable enough to make a move, air a crush or giving them more opportunities to do this outside of the eyes of fellow employees. Besides, we were talking about eating out lunch with male coworkers off site I thought. If the move was made, it might happen off site. I guess you could still report that to HR but I don't know if it would be a work-related complaint if it wasn't a work assigned meal. Your word against theirs, too if they denied it.

 

People are not always straight forward. It could be very subtle. Like you're gonna tell HR that John Doe gazed into your eyes too long at the Chinese lunch buffet and you got really uncomfortable. You can complain or address it with him, but if you have to work with that person it can still be awkward even if you stood up to them, complain about them, addressed it etc.

 

As I said, the people that choose to avoid these situations are probably not changing their behavior. So please don't think we are all letting everyone "dictate our lives." Odds are we are doing this for the comfort of ourselves as well as others. Yes, I feel more comfortable NOT eating out alone with a married man. I said that is how I felt when I was single, too.

 

Actually, I think we are talking about the same thing. 

 

I refuse to insulate myself from the world on the basis of what might happen. I expect other adults to act like adults. I expect to control myself and I expect others to control themselves. I am not responsible if someone chooses to flirt with me or has a crush on me. If they choose to express it, they are choosing the consequences. If they can't control their emotions around their co-workers or friends, that is their issue, not mine. I should not and do not have to avoid the company of others because they might behave badly. If they do behave badly, then it's their problem, not mine. If I knowingly put myself in a position where I will encounter someone who behaves badly, then I might be an idiot, but that still doesn't justify anything they might do or make me responsible for their actions or feelings. 

 

If someone were to overtly flirt with me, admit to a crush or anything else, there is a wide range of options available to me (and to anyone else in that situation). If someone exhibits these behaviors towards me, I am smart enough and comfortable enough with myself to rebuff the advances and, if necessary, directly tell the person to buzz off. I can remove myself from the situation (leave the meal, decline to meet with the person again, etc.) and if necessary, I will do whatever is possible at the time to physically defend myself.  I can decide to report them to HR and/or the police if the situation warrants it (escalating into stalking, continuing to flirt, physical contact, whatever).  I can decide to tell all of my family and friends. This is true in any context, personal or professional.

 

Yes, you can report off site harassment to HR.  Yes, their options for action will be limited. So what? Unwanted flirting is sexual harassment.  

 

John Doe is only going to be able to gaze into your eyes as long as you are gazing into his - so if that happens to you and it makes you uncomfortable, stop gazing into John Doe's eyes. You might be creeping him out. 

 

Yes, reporting bad behavior is often "your word against theirs." So what? Whether or not anyone believes me or whether or not I have proof does not change the truth of what happened. 

 

Speaking the truth is not awkward for me.  If I stand up to someone, report them, complain about them or address it in any way, I have done the right thing and have nothing to feel awkward about. If the other party feels awkward because I stood up to them, reported them, complained about them, etc., then they should. Additionally, how they feel is not my problem. If they feel awkward, it is because of their actions and the consequences, not because I reported them. If they don't want to feel awkward in their workplace, they need to control themselves. 

 

If someone harasses you (that unwanted and sustained flirting you were describing) and you choose not to  rebuff or report it when necessary out of a desire to avoid conflict or awkward feelings, and instead avoid them at all costs, then yes, you are letting others dictate your life. I am not saying that people shouldn't protect themselves (sometimes we need to avoid people to ensure our safety or that of others), but silence is not necessary. We have to woman up.