Peaceseeker Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) Can those of you with high schoolers tell me at what point (if any) your teens are using calculators for their math? Is calculator use recommended in most high school math? How about standardized tests like the ACT/SAT? Edited March 20, 2017 by CaliforniaDreaming 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnMyOwn Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 We did very little with the calculator until agebra 2. If my child was solid on the computation, but struggled with speed, I might have been inclined to allow them to use the calculator earlier for some of their problems, but I would still have had them do at least a few each day without the calculator so that I could make sure they continued to understand the relationships between the numbers. To me, that would be a reasonable compromise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Did not use calculators except for some of the trig stuff in Algebra 2. Then DS went to the CC for math courses and uses it all the time. I'm kind of torn. Some people are dead against it, and some think it's no big deal. Certainly using one for high school math doesn't rank up there with having first graders use them! KWIM? So I don't see it as detrimental at this point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedmom4 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 In Saxon Algebra I (4th edition). It is required to use a graphing calculator. IMHO, once they are solid on their computation skills it's not necessary to do difficult problems on paper. But I do understand the dilemma. It can feel like they are taking the easy way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetC Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 When math starts to have square roots and logs, time to use calculators more. Certainly by Algebra 2, it's easier to focus on the complex concepts and leave basic computation to the calculator. Calculators are allowed on ACT math and for part of SAT math. I like the TI 30 XS Multiview as a starter scientific calculator. It displays both the input and the output so you can check for keyboard errors and is very reasonably priced. Switch to a graphing calculator around trig or precalc. The TI 84 series seems to be pretty standard in my area so that's what I got. I didn't compare models besides also checking the approved calculator list for ACT/SAT. It is good practice to do a lot of graphing so that students are seeing functions visually and not just manipulating symbols. That said, the precalc we ended up using was written towards the TI 30. They wanted students to do a lot of graphing by hand. My DD carries both her calculators these days, as her calculus class is oriented towards the 84, but the 30 is quick and easy for simple things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 I think by second semester of Algebra I, we began switching over to calculators. By then, basic math calculations only slowed them down, even though they understood them perfectly. Algebra became so much more bearable and even enjoyable for my kids when we brought in calculators. As long as I felt confident in their basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division skills, bringing in calculators in order to speed up those steps and get to the real meat seemed like a good thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Not much until algebra 2, which seemed reasonable to me because that is what I remember from my own schooling, right or wrong. It probably also depends on what book you use for algebra 1. You really don't need a calculator at all for AoPS, for example, but for Foerster's, it is necessary for some problems if you are solving the way the book tells you to and using their solutions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 We use AoPS, and I believe it was in Algebra that there's a section on calculating interest rates that requires the use of a calculator. It comes up now and then in AoPS, but not often. If you think your student will be relying on a calculator in the long term, you might consider having him use one that uses RPN, reverse polish notation, aka a scientific calculator. It makes calculations much easier and faster. Once he learns RPN, he'll never go back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Not much until algebra 2, which seemed reasonable to me because that is what I remember from my own schooling, right or wrong. It probably also depends on what book you use for algebra 1. You really don't need a calculator at all for AoPS, for example, but for Foerster's, it is necessary for some problems if you are solving the way the book tells you to and using their solutions. Yes definitely the book has something to do with it. Books that don't emphasize or expect calculator use generally won't use so many unwieldy numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) My kids did not use a calculator in math through calculus, with the very rare exception of a few problems for which calculator use was specifically allowed. They used a simple scientific calculator for their physics and chemistry problems. They never used a graphing calculator. For SAT/ACT/SAT 2 subject test math, a simple scientific calculator is sufficient. DD is a third year college student majoring in physics; she has never needed to use a graphing calculator. As a college instructor, I see the negative effects of calculator overuse in schools. Students don't develop number sense and become dependent on calculators; their mental math skills are suffering. They need a calculator to calculate 120/5 or multiplication by ten, and they are unable to use the law of exponents to estimate orders of magnitudes for expressions where the numbers are given in scientific notation. There are places where a calculator is a good tool - but you don't learn math with one. I would be wary of any curriculum that is designed to encourage calculator use, because that often misses the learning objective of a problem (like using laws of logarithms or trig identities to solve - punching the problem into the calculator does not teach anything. ETA: Just for perspective: at our university, the placement tests into college math courses do not allow a calculator. The introductory math and physics courses don't either. Edited March 20, 2017 by regentrude 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 In Saxon Algebra I (4th edition). It is required to use a graphing calculator. IMHO, once they are solid on their computation skills it's not necessary to do difficult problems on paper. But I do understand the dilemma. It can feel like they are taking the easy way. I'll be annoying, sorry. It's taught, but not required. We haven't used a calculator for graphing and we're wrapping up Saxon advanced math. I do allow a calculator starting in algebra 2 for trig stuff (calculating, not graphing), and for arithmetic since the work takes a while to complete. DD did not suffer in the ACT, at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 If you think your student will be relying on a calculator in the long term, you might consider having him use one that uses RPN, reverse polish notation, aka a scientific calculator. It makes calculations much easier and faster. Once he learns RPN, he'll never go back. DH & I have both learned RPN, although only I owned a calculator which was actually RPN. We're both engineers. Both of us prefer not to use RPN. When my RPN calculator died, I did not buy another. So, this is not universally true. :laugh: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiaH Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Help! What is RPN? I Googled it - and was advised it is Reverse Polish Notation! I don't think that's what you meant...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) Help! What is RPN? I Googled it - and was advised it is Reverse Polish Notation! I don't think that's what you meant...! I think it is what the poster meant. But most calculators don't actually do that for operations like plus and minus. There are calculators that use a similar notation for functions, you use the button for the function after the argument "45 sin" , as opposed to typing "sin 45". I far prefer the former because it eliminates the need for parentheses. I have not seen any calculator in common use (my students have a lot of different types) that uses strict RPN for everything. Edited March 20, 2017 by regentrude 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Yes, RPN is Reverse Polish Notation. Some models of HP calculators have it. I also use an app on my phone that mimics an HP calculator with RPN. IMO once they are good at calculations, it's time to move on to higher productivity with more problems by not having them spending time doing arithmetic anymore. I don't know about graphing calculators. I had one all through college - engineering degree BTW - and I never used my graphing functions. I never even learned to use them. Maybe because they were brand new when I was in college, students weren't expected to use the graphing. Instead I learned the shapes of different types of functions, how to solve x and y intercepts, find the peaks and valleys and quickly sketch a graph. Obviously using the graphing functions would be faster. The elegance of RPN is the stack. I love love love RPN calculators that have a big stack and will show at least four lines of it. I still have my 48G. Our kids are in grades 5 and 8 now, and they both use RPN calculators for math. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaceseeker Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) Thanks for all the advice. This is very helpful. I think we will try to keep doing math without a calculator for the most part and see how it goes. Edited March 20, 2017 by CaliforniaDreaming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momofjep Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 We started in Algebra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 We use scientific calculators starting in Alg 1 - however I am starting to wonder about the effectiveness of a graphing calculator for the SAT/ACT. On one hand I would welcome the time savings of graphing parabolas... but I hate to spend the time learning how to operate a new calculator. Whatever the case I would want dd to be "fluent" with the new calculator before test time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 We use AoPS, and I believe it was in Algebra that there's a section on calculating interest rates that requires the use of a calculator. It comes up now and then in AoPS, but not often. If you think your student will be relying on a calculator in the long term, you might consider having him use one that uses RPN, reverse polish notation, aka a scientific calculator. It makes calculations much easier and faster. Once he learns RPN, he'll never go back. ACK... My son loves RPN. I'm not a fan though! Good grief it took me awhile to get used to using a calculator at all. :laugh: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Help! What is RPN? I Googled it - and was advised it is Reverse Polish Notation! I don't think that's what you meant...! Hah, I know, it sounds like some sort of joke. No joke, that is what it is called. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 How about standardized tests like the ACT/SAT?I read your longer OP before it was edited. I have a kid who needs the calculator for ACT, SAT and any other test which allows calculator use that is also a timed test. I have another kid who has fast computation speed. I would treat ACT and SAT test prep separately from high school math curriculum. When doing the test prep for the ACT and the calculator section of the SAT, let your child use the calculator. There is no point in not using the calculator and calculating manually or by hand instead if the question is structured for calculator use. The point would be to maximize the scores for a timed test. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 I was surprised, when I learned that DD would need a Graphing Calculator, before she began Algebra 1. I now believe there is a section of the SAT that requires the use of a Graphing Calculator? In the case of DD, the Calculator is used occasionally and I suspect that is to get the students familiar with their calculators, before they take the ACT and SAT exams. When she takes Math exams, DD submits pages, to show the Instructor how she arrived at solutions to problems. If one was dependent upon a calculator and could not solve a problem without it, that would mean to me that they do not understand the material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 I now believe there is a section of the SAT that requires the use of a Graphing Calculator?Nope, a graphing calculator is not required and has to be an approved model to be used. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/sat/taking-the-test/calculator-policyAll scientific calculators are approved (unless they can print on paper or they have large displays). Both my kids took the new SAT. AP Calculus require a graphing calculator. AP Statistics requires either a graphing calculator or a calculator with the required statistics computational capabilities. http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/ap_coordinators/on_exam_day/232033.html 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkT Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 When math starts to have square roots and logs, time to use calculators more. Certainly by Algebra 2, it's easier to focus on the complex concepts and leave basic computation to the calculator. Calculators are allowed on ACT math and for part of SAT math. I like the TI 30 XS Multiview as a starter scientific calculator. It displays both the input and the output so you can check for keyboard errors and is very reasonably priced. Switch to a graphing calculator around trig or precalc. The TI 84 series seems to be pretty standard in my area so that's what I got. I didn't compare models besides also checking the approved calculator list for ACT/SAT. It is good practice to do a lot of graphing so that students are seeing functions visually and not just manipulating symbols. That said, the precalc we ended up using was written towards the TI 30. They wanted students to do a lot of graphing by hand. My DD carries both her calculators these days, as her calculus class is oriented towards the 84, but the 30 is quick and easy for simple things. Another good choice is TI 36X Pro for a scientific calculator: https://education.ti.com/en/products/calculators/scientific-calculators/ti-36x-pro DS went/goes to Public Charter schools - they pushed purchasing a graphing calculator for Algebra 1 but it was totally unnecessary. In Algebra 2 and Geometry it is handy to have a scientific calculator available. A graphing calculator becomes useful in Precalc but is pretty much a necessity for AP Calc AB (other Calc I courses may rely less on graphing calculators). DS has a TI 84 CE now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkT Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) In Saxon Algebra I (4th edition). It is required to use a graphing calculator. IMHO, once they are solid on their computation skills it's not necessary to do difficult problems on paper. But I do understand the dilemma. It can feel like they are taking the easy way. DS used that text at his charter. It was totally unnecessary to purchase a graphing calculator to use with it. There were a few problems where it was handy - I found this easy one: https://my.hrw.com/math06_07/nsmedia/tools/Graph_Calculator/graphCalc.html The teacher liked it and shared it with the class. She did not have to spend time training the class to use a real graphing calculator. Edited March 25, 2017 by MarkT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 We use scientific calculators starting in Alg 1 - however I am starting to wonder about the effectiveness of a graphing calculator for the SAT/ACT. On one hand I would welcome the time savings of graphing parabolas... but I hate to spend the time learning how to operate a new calculator. Whatever the case I would want dd to be "fluent" with the new calculator before test time. I don't know, I rather enjoyed graphing equations, even if it is slower. Especially with polar coordinates, it was fun to see what mysterious flower would be generated by a particular equation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 I don't know, I rather enjoyed graphing equations, even if it is slower. Especially with polar coordinates, it was fun to see what mysterious flower would be generated by a particular equation. No problem graphing by hand, but this would simply be for time savings on the SAT. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 (edited) I allowed my kids to use a calculator for basic calculations starting in Algebra I. We never used a graphing calculator at home. My son, who is taking precalculus (honors) at the ps this year needs to be able to use a graphing calculator for certain problems, but to his teacher's credit, he is not allowed to use the calculator for most work. ETA: Neither of my kids has used the graphing aspect of their calculators when doing the SAT/ACT. Edited March 26, 2017 by EKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 My kids don't use a calculator for math until they get to calc. At that point, I get them a TI Inspire. Imo, you don't need a graphing calculator for the new SAT, but you do need a regular calculator to bash through the number crunching on some of the problems in the calculator section. My son is almost done with his second year of college. He has never needed to use his graphing calculator. In fact, he has only had one class that even permitted the use of a calculator. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 We use scientific calculators starting in Alg 1 - however I am starting to wonder about the effectiveness of a graphing calculator for the SAT/ACT. On one hand I would welcome the time savings of graphing parabolas... but I hate to spend the time learning how to operate a new calculator. Whatever the case I would want dd to be "fluent" with the new calculator before test time. You don't need a graphing calculator on the SAT/ACT. I am not convinced that using one would save any time. DD did fine without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.