10 year old unable to distinguish vowel sounds

[MinionMom]

Last week we decided to bring out dd10 home for the remainder of the school year. We were doing a simple spelling assignment today where she needed to decide if the words had either a short a, short e, short i, or none of the above. She was unable to pick out the vowel sounds, or even separate the sounds of a word like 'cat'. I'm dumbfounded!

 

She taught herself to read at 3, was reading Harry Potter in kindergarten, has always been at the top of her class working well above grade level in reading and spelling (just competed in the school spelling bee!). I guess we just assumed she knew the sounds. How do I help her? The simple request to circle the words with a short a sound literally sent her into hysterics. Even as I set next to her and slowly said each word exaggerating to sound, it seemed that she was guessing (if the word just had an 'a' in it, she'd assume it was a short sound, no matter the pronunciation).

 

ETA: maybe I'm overthinking it? Is it really so bad if she reads completely by sight?

Edited February 8, 2017 by MinionMom

[Jenn in CA]

Wow! That's pretty amazing. I'd post in the Learning Difficulties forum if I were you.

 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Crimson Wife]

Has she had a full hearing test (in the booth, not the screening at the pediatrician's) within the past year? If not, I would strongly encourage you to get one. A high frequency hearing loss can make vowels very hard to distinguish. I learned the hard way that a bright kid may figure out how to lip-read and use context clues to "fill in the gaps" so that the difficulty hearing is masked. 

 

Chances are that her hearing is fine but PLEASE go to the audiologist just to rule out any kind of physical hearing problem.

[OneStepAtATime]

I strongly agree with CW, get a full hearing eval with an audiologist just to make sure she isn't suffering hearing loss in the higher registers.  You might also look into APD (Auditory Processing Disorder), which they should be able to check for as well.  

[Ellie]

Last week we decided to bring out dd10 home for the remainder of the school year. We were doing a simple spelling assignment today where she needed to decide if the words had either a short a, short e, short i, or none of the above. She was unable to pick out the vowel sounds, or even separate the sounds of a word like 'cat'. I'm dumbfounded!

 

She taught herself to read at 3, was reading Harry Potter in kindergarten, has always been at the top of her class working well above grade level in reading and spelling (just competed in the school spelling bee!). I guess we just assumed she knew the sounds. How do I help her? The simple request to circle the words with a short a sound literally sent her into hysterics. Even as I set next to her and slowly said each word exaggerating to sound, it seemed that she was guessing (if the word just had an 'a' in it, she'd assume it was a short sound, no matter the pronunciation).

 

ETA: maybe I'm overthinking it? Is it really so bad if she reads completely by sight?

 

It is possible that she is a very visual, very bright child, with an excellent memory. Teaching herself to read at a young age does not mean that she learned that letters had such things as long or short sounds. 

 

It couldn't hurt to have her screened, as others have suggested, but it could just be that she has never had to know such things as short a sounds. You could start at the beginning, and of course, I would recommend Spalding. :-)

[OneStepAtATime]

Ellie may be right, she may be very bright and was able to teach herself to read without actually learning basic phonics like short vowel sounds. I would get the audiology eval but you also should maybe try running her through a basic phonics program to see if that helps...

[MinionMom]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I will call her pcp and ask about a referral to have her hearing tested and screened for an auditory processing disorder. Those ideas were never on my radar.

 

Back in first grade I did notice she had a tough time hearing the difference between f,v, and th. Her teacher said it was developmentally normal. Within months, her spelling had improved, and we never gave it another thought. Makes me wonder if it's not just vowel sounds she's not able to distinguish.

 

Im looking now for basic phonic books (she's a workbook kind of kid) to work through, but they seem rather "babyish". Any suggestions? Links to great websites with phonic games for older kids?

[Laura Corin]

Last week we decided to bring out dd10 home for the remainder of the school year. We were doing a simple spelling assignment today where she needed to decide if the words had either a short a, short e, short i, or none of the above. She was unable to pick out the vowel sounds, or even separate the sounds of a word like 'cat'. I'm dumbfounded!

 

She taught herself to read at 3, was reading Harry Potter in kindergarten, has always been at the top of her class working well above grade level in reading and spelling (just competed in the school spelling bee!). I guess we just assumed she knew the sounds. How do I help her? The simple request to circle the words with a short a sound literally sent her into hysterics. Even as I set next to her and slowly said each word exaggerating to sound, it seemed that she was guessing (if the word just had an 'a' in it, she'd assume it was a short sound, no matter the pronunciation).

 

ETA: maybe I'm overthinking it? Is it really so bad if she reads completely by sight?

 

I don't think it matters - she's reading and spelling well.  It's a tool, not a goal in itself.

 

I remember mentioning the silent 'e' rule to Calvin when he was about ten.  He mostly taught himself to read and had never internalised the rules I had taught him.  He had no idea what I was talking about.  He is studying English and Classics at a very good university.

 

ETA: getting a hearing test sounds like a good idea, but I don't think that academic remediation is necessary.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Laura Corin

[Guest]

It doesnt matter. If she knows how to use the dictionary, she will learn to correctly prounounce words she hasn't heard. She will spell by comparing the new word to one she knows, then correcting her guess.

 

If you want to teach the phonemes, Megawords 1 is good, but at this point it doesn't matter. Most adults couldn't tell you what the schwa sound is, or what letter symbolizes it, but they can read and spell words that have that sound.

[historically accurate]

All three of my children have had trouble with distinguishing vowel sounds, and two have had problems breaking words into sounds. "a", "e" and "i" are the three that completely flummox them. I use visual hints I stole from LeapFrog Letter Factory. /a/ is a scream, /e/ is a hand to my ear like I can't hear you (eh?), and /i/ I wrinkle my nose like I've smelled something icky. (/o/ is Tarzan swinging through the forest, and /u/ is pointing up although I haven't had to help those in years) I have run them all through All About Spelling level 1, and we spent a huge amount of time on Step 2 or 3 where you break down words using tokens - so for the word cat, you put 3 tokens in front of the child, pull down the first while saying /c/, say /a/ pulling down the next, and say /t/ while pulling down the last token. You could try doing that with your dd and see if it starts to get it. 

Oldest has dysgraphia. She is a stellar reader (reading by age 3) and progressed quickly. She cannot spell her way out of a paper bag though even at age 14. 

 

Middle is both a fantastic reader and speller. She has Apraxia of Speech though, hearing and producing letter sounds has been an uphill climb for her. 

 

Youngest hasn't been tested, but I'm assuming dysgraphia. She was the latest to learn to read (age 7) and struggles with spelling, though not as much as the oldest. 

 

Honestly, if your dd is reading and spelling well, I might check her hearing, but I don't think it will affect anything long term. Is she able to sight read words she doesn't know? 

[mamamoose]

Vowel sounds can be very difficult to isolate. It sounds like she is a visual learner (as am I) and memorized words based on how they looked. I would also have her hearing checked, post on the learning challenges board, and consider a program that isolates sounds after the eval, depending on the outcome.

[Ellie]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I will call her pcp and ask about a referral to have her hearing tested and screened for an auditory processing disorder. Those ideas were never on my radar.

 

Back in first grade I did notice she had a tough time hearing the difference between f,v, and th. Her teacher said it was developmentally normal. Within months, her spelling had improved, and we never gave it another thought. Makes me wonder if it's not just vowel sounds she's not able to distinguish.

 

Im looking now for basic phonic books (she's a workbook kind of kid) to work through, but they seem rather "babyish". Any suggestions? Links to great websites with phonic games for older kids?

 

Spalding. It teaches children to read by teaching them to spell; when children already know how to read, it will improve their spelling. No workbooks. Your dd needs to *hear* those sounds and to recognize them, something that won't happen with a workbook.

[Hunter]

I taught myself to read at age 4 with a Dr Suess book. I am a very very very visual learner. I switched schools constantly as a child, including international moves, and when it was required, I was sometimes able to complete phonics worksheets backwards because of my advanced reading skills; I failed and tried to hide the ones I couldn't do that with, and just waited to move again.

 

I didn't learn phonics till my mid 40s after both my boys were grown. They did some phonics in PS, but mostly learned to read by memory like I did. My oldest failed to learn to read at school with phonics, but did learn at home with the easy reader I wrote for him.

 

I did have a booth hearing test once and passed, but listening is torture for me. Something isn't a strength. Visual is what I do best.

 

For remedial students I have used Alpha-Phonics. I think the lists of similar words work better than single words for some students. I use Alpha-Phonics as copywork and teach intensive handwriting at the same time. The student is focused on the handwriting, while I am able to evaluate their phonics without quizzing them.

 

Alpha-Phonics is free now.

http://blumenfeld.campconstitution.net

 

Don Potter wrote some Spalding like supplements.

http://www.donpotter.net/reading_clinic.html

.

.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Hunter

[GoVanGogh]

My son taught himself to read but never could catch the vowel sounds, or distinguish v and f. He has oral apraxia and couldn't feel where his lips and tongue where. Now, several years later, we are headed to an audiologist because it appears he has a hearing issue.

I would say from my experience - kids are amazing at adapting and compensating - until something gets too much, then everything crashes down because that solid foundation hasn't been built. People that don't have kids with learning issues cannot understand that without seeing it, IMHO. A hearing and speech screening are relatively inexpensive in the big game of life and they are non-invasive procedures. Do the screenings. If you find out nothing is wrong, awesome. One important thing I learned from the learning challenges board here - people never say they wish they had waited to find out, everyone regrets not finding out earlier.

[Hunter]

Not everyone has the resources to get proper evaluations. I tried and failed to get proper evaluations for my 2E kid. What he did get hurt him more than helped him. All the preliminary stuff, done by poorly trained people, does is get a 2E kid labeled enough to close doors.

 

I am not for or against evaluations in general. They just are not always a cure-all, or the the thing to try first. Not for everyone all the time.

[PeterPan]

Ok, thing one, I'm totally with Crimson that I'd have her hearing checked out pronto. Just because she's incredibly bright or gifted and able to cover the problem doesn't mean it's not a problem. Does she have issues hearing you when there is background noise? Does she get headaches in noisy situations that are fine for other people? That would be interesting to note. 

 

What you want is an audiologist who will do basic hearing, yes. If she has any issues with background noise, etc., also get the SCAN test for auditory processing. Sometimes APD will show up that way. Our university will run both of those in an hour for $35. Seriously. It's that easy to eliminate as a question.

 

Now the other thing I would want, and this is just me personally, is a CTOPP. Sometimes an SLP can run it. A psych can run it. The ps can run it. Again, you're trying to figure out what's going on here. Does she have any ADHD symptoms or behavioral or social issues? If any of those are in the mix, use a psychologist. If no ADHD suspicion or behavioral or social things you notice, then an SLP can run it for less. But me, again, I like the psych. Around here I can also get a reading tutor to run the CTOPP and a DAR for $75. That would give you a lot of info and a good baseline for just a little money.

 

As for intervention, you can do the pre-test for Barton for free. Students | Barton It might give you some interesting information. It's NOT a dyslexia test, but it might catch a few more things. 

 

Then, based on the results from that and a CTOPP, I would use either LIPS or the other newer program Barton recommends OR this really, really stellar, super easy to use workbook.

Attention Good Listeners

This is a workbook I used with my ds when he was struggling with vowel discrimination, and it is made specifically for it. I would *not* put her through a regular phonics program. You don't know if it's necessary, and it won't be as detailed and targeted as this awesome workbook. 

 

If you get the workbook, post on LC and let us give you some tips on using it. The pages are deceptively simple. What you do is drill them every day, but stepping up how you use them. You can bring in working memory work, word retrieval, rapid naming, you name it. There's a lot you can target and you can use the same page to do 3-5 different exercises, easy peasy. EXTREMELY effective, extremely targeted. Highly recommend.

 

Yes, you could buy the workbook and just start, but me personally I'd want some testing to get a baseline and figure out what's going on.

Edited February 8, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Mergath]

Spalding. It teaches children to read by teaching them to spell; when children already know how to read, it will improve their spelling. No workbooks. Your dd needs to *hear* those sounds and to recognize them, something that won't happen with a workbook.

 

Spalding is going to be massive overkill for a child who already knows how to read and spell.

[PeterPan]

Spalding is going to be massive overkill for a child who already knows how to read and spell.

 

Not only that, but it's using curriculum for a problem that would respond better to targeted intervention. 

[Ellie]

Spalding is going to be massive overkill for a child who already knows how to read and spell.

 

The Op said, "She was unable to pick out the vowel sounds, or even separate the sounds of a word like 'cat'. I'm dumbfounded! <snip> I guess we just assumed she knew the sounds. How do I help her? The simple request to circle the words with a short a sound literally sent her into hysterics. Even as I sit next to her and slowly said each word exaggerating to sound, it seemed that she was guessing (if the word just had an 'a' in it, she'd assume it was a short sound, no matter the pronunciation)."

 

And that's why I recommended Spalding.

 

It's possible that this child's visual memory, which helps her spell so well, may reach its limit. Spalding would give her the skills to move past memorizing words by sight alone.

[Petrichor]

I agree with Ellie on the advice to try Spalding. 

 

You don't have to use the whole curriculum. Teach the phonograms. Dictate words from the word list and help her extract the sounds. Label(or at least point out) the sounds. Learn the phonics rules. It will help with spelling. 

 

I don't think she needs to know that cat has a "short a", and tape has a "long a", but she should be able to tell that the "a" in cat and the "a" in tape are different sounds. 

 

[PeterPan]

I would think that a 10 yo who can spell proficiently has already been through your basic experiences with inferential learning of phonics. 

 

At this point she's either going to need physical instruction of vowel production and how it works in the mouth (which you can get with LIPS or some of the newer programs or find in a youtube video) or she needs minimal differences pairs, which you can also get either as a targeted workbook or by googling for worksheets. I gave her a link to a workbook, because I've used it, like it. I've also done minimal differences pairs with an ESL student. The workbook is more thorough, since more is going on. 

 

From my college linguistics classes, it was easy to pick up the LIPS materials and explain vowel production. I used LIPS with my ds in conjunction with the DeGaetano workbook, and it's stellar, very solid.

 

Here's a hack video to get you started. It's not me.

 

Here's a page with more pictures. LIPS is a solid program btw. At this link you'll see pictures of the faces they use and snapshots of how they group the sounds under each production face. It's a really easy concept once it clicks in your mind, and it's something you can demonstrate to your student, have them FEEL, and do intervention for in a SNAP. This, of all things, is surprisingly easy. Like it can be rocket science, but it's not THAT complicated to intervene on properly. It doesn't have to be left to inference. You can teach it explicitly. 

Vowel Circle - Coffemix

 

Here's a google search for minimal differences vowels worksheets. TONS of hits. They cost you NOTHING. Just print and use. Again, I like the DeGaetano workbook I linked BETTER, but these will work. 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=minimal+differences+vowels+worksheets&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

If you WANT to do discrimination exercises with word lists you generate, that's fine. I would use words she'll find interesting, like words from her hobby or favorite books or special interests. Like is she interested in horses or LotR or something? Use words from that. Then what you want to do is ONLY make the exercise about discriminating minimal differences in the two vowels you've taught. And MAKE SURE the vowels are far apart on the vowel circle. So don't just jump in with what is hard, kwim? Start with maybe /a/ (like in cat) and /oo/  (like in goose). And print some lip faces or draw them yourself or take pictures or whatever you think up. 

 

So if she likes horses, you might have her discriminate:

 

hand brushing / riding suit

cap under my helmet/goose at the pond

 

and so on. And then, when she's solid on those to where they're easy peasy (maybe even they already were when she started!), then bring in another vowel that is inching closer to ones she doesn't discriminate so well. 

 

You don't want to throw in tons of vowels at once. Only two vowels. Stress the one you're discriminating. I used phrases because she's old enough to hear you stressing the syllable or word you are emphasizing. If that's too hard, then just use single words. 

 

When you add another vowel to the mix, narrow the field back to two and build up again slowly. This is all about baby steps, thoroughness. That's how you make sure she can hear every sound in every position. So you'd like her to be able to discriminate every vowel (and consonant) in all the positions (initial, final, and medial).

 

So that's like:

 

axe

hand

 

and now I'm drawing a blank for /a/ in final position, lol. But you get the idea. As she gets it in single syllable cvc words, make it more complex. Then crank it to 2 and 3 syllable words, but same gig, ONLY discriminating for a narrow field that you expand.

 

Fwiw, the DeGaetano workbook will be better than any of that, and it will save you from wasting tons of time printing worksheets, generating lists, etc. It's exceptional.

Edited February 9, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[MinionMom]

Thank you for the very thorough suggestions. It's a lot of information. It'll take a few times reading through to make sense of it all. But, really, thank you!

[PeterPan]

Thank you for the very thorough suggestions. It's a lot of information. It'll take a few times reading through to make sense of it all. But, really, thank you!

 

Sorry, wasn't trying to overwhelm you, lol. I was trying to demonstrate that there's a wide gap between the implicit phonics of regular curriculum and the very explicit way we can break sounds down with therapy level interventions and help them FEEL the production, SEE how it looks, make the connection between how it sounds and feels and looks, and then connect all those multi-sensory inputs to the orthography. Huge gap. And it's not hard to do. It's just a matter of picking up the right materials. :)

 

PS. If you actually decide to do any of those things and want help, come over to LC. Lots of people there have done it and can help you. :)

Edited February 9, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[mamamoose]

Ok, thing one, I'm totally with Crimson that I'd have her hearing checked out pronto. Just because she's incredibly bright or gifted and able to cover the problem doesn't mean it's not a problem. Does she have issues hearing you when there is background noise? Does she get headaches in noisy situations that are fine for other people? That would be interesting to note.

 

What you want is an audiologist who will do basic hearing, yes. If she has any issues with background noise, etc., also get the SCAN test for auditory processing. Sometimes APD will show up that way. Our university will run both of those in an hour for $35. Seriously. It's that easy to eliminate as a question.

 

Now the other thing I would want, and this is just me personally, is a CTOPP. Sometimes an SLP can run it. A psych can run it. The ps can run it. Again, you're trying to figure out what's going on here. Does she have any ADHD symptoms or behavioral or social issues? If any of those are in the mix, use a psychologist. If no ADHD suspicion or behavioral or social things you notice, then an SLP can run it for less. But me, again, I like the psych. Around here I can also get a reading tutor to run the CTOPP and a DAR for $75. That would give you a lot of info and a good baseline for just a little money.

 

As for intervention, you can do the pre-test for Barton for free. Students | Barton It might give you some interesting information. It's NOT a dyslexia test, but it might catch a few more things.

 

Then, based on the results from that and a CTOPP, I would use either LIPS or the other newer program Barton recommends OR this really, really stellar, super easy to use workbook.

Attention Good Listeners

This is a workbook I used with my ds when he was struggling with vowel discrimination, and it is made specifically for it. I would *not* put her through a regular phonics program. You don't know if it's necessary, and it won't be as detailed and targeted as this awesome workbook.

 

If you get the workbook, post on LC and let us give you some tips on using it. The pages are deceptively simple. What you do is drill them every day, but stepping up how you use them. You can bring in working memory work, word retrieval, rapid naming, you name it. There's a lot you can target and you can use the same page to do 3-5 different exercises, easy peasy. EXTREMELY effective, extremely targeted. Highly recommend.

 

Yes, you could buy the workbook and just start, but me personally I'd want some testing to get a baseline and figure out what's going on.

It would be helpful if you used the actual words rather than an acronym. I've been in the learning disability world for 2 years and still don't have them straight. 😊 Edited February 9, 2017 by mamamoose

[PeterPan]

It would be helpful if you used the actual words rather than an acronym. I've been in the learning disability world for 2 years and still don't have them straight. 😊

 

Most of the acronyms I used are how they are actually said and what professionals call them. You can google the names. CTOPP, DAR, ADHD. SLP even is a normal abbreviation you can google, not board lingo.. The only board lingo there is LC=Learning Challenges board. APD=auditory processing disorder, but they'll use that or CAPD in book titles. 

[Bluegoat]

I would say, by all means schedual some testing, but she's only been home a short time, and it may well be the case she's never been taught this at all.  At 10, as a long-time reader, I think this might be a less intuitive skill than it would have been at 6. But if she gets it, it might suddenly all become easy.

 

In the mean time, you might find over the next few weeks, there could be significant improvement.  I think trying to keep it from becoming pressured is important, so she doesn't end up in hysterics.  For a child who is used to being advanced, finding something so basic difficult might account for that.  I would discuss with her that its a skill she may have missed as a self-taught reader, and might be harder to pick up at her age and the materials may seem babyish.  Get her on board with what you need to accomplish.

And even if she never gets this, it may not be a huge issue in the end.  So - no need to freak out.  If you don't make progress, then you'll have some testing to do that will give some more insight.

[Petrichor]

I would say, by all means schedual some testing, but she's only been home a short time, and it may well be the case she's never been taught this at all.  At 10, as a long-time reader, I think this might be a less intuitive skill than it would have been at 6. But if she gets it, it might suddenly all become easy.

 

In the mean time, you might find over the next few weeks, there could be significant improvement.  I think trying to keep it from becoming pressured is important, so she doesn't end up in hysterics.  For a child who is used to being advanced, finding something so basic difficult might account for that.  I would discuss with her that its a skill she may have missed as a self-taught reader, and might be harder to pick up at her age and the materials may seem babyish.  Get her on board with what you need to accomplish.

And even if she never gets this, it may not be a huge issue in the end.  So - no need to freak out.  If you don't make progress, then you'll have some testing to do that will give some more insight.

 

Definitely this. 

[Plink]

I would say, by all means schedual some testing, but she's only been home a short time, and it may well be the case she's never been taught this at all.  At 10, as a long-time reader, I think this might be a less intuitive skill than it would have been at 6. But if she gets it, it might suddenly all become easy.

 

In the mean time, you might find over the next few weeks, there could be significant improvement.  I think trying to keep it from becoming pressured is important, so she doesn't end up in hysterics.  For a child who is used to being advanced, finding something so basic difficult might account for that.  I would discuss with her that its a skill she may have missed as a self-taught reader, and might be harder to pick up at her age and the materials may seem babyish.  Get her on board with what you need to accomplish.

And even if she never gets this, it may not be a huge issue in the end.  So - no need to freak out.  If you don't make progress, then you'll have some testing to do that will give some more insight.

 

As a parent of someone with multiple learning disabilities, it is easy to jump on the bandwagon and start offering great ideas for remediation (LiPS)

 

BUT

 

I'd be wondering if your assessment was at fault, and not her skills.  Did she have a cold?  Was she stressed or annoyed?  Was she rushing to try and finish? Were you clear in your instructions?   Did you present the tasks in the right way?

 

It is hard to imagine that a child could do well at spelling and not have the skill of determining short vowels from one another.  Yes, stealth dyslexia exists, as do auditory processing disorders and hearing loss, however I wouldn't jump to that conclusion with a student recently pulled from school with no obvious struggle in this area.  Personally, I'd wait for a week, review the teacher instructions, and then re-assess.  

[ElizabethB]

Here is a quick review of phonics and spelling rules designed for an older child.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html

 

You may need something like the app Sounds of Speech for learning sounds in isolation. I have a video about how sounds in isolation don't exactly match the sounds when blended, I will look for it and link.

 

Here is the video, you just need the first 5 1/2 minutes, the rest is about how to teach blending in fun ways for a young child.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q4KTyqpg5o

Edited February 9, 2017 by ElizabethB

[MerryAtHope]

One thing I'm wondering is whether she understood what you were asking.

 

For example, has she been directly taught which sounds are "short" sounds and which ones are long?

Does she know what it means to separate a word into it's sounds (rather than give letter names or spell a word)?

 

It may be that what you are asking is so different from things she was taught in school that it confused her. 

 

I do agree with others that there could be issues with hearing, auditory processing, or other possible learning disabilities that she has been masking. (Twice-exceptional or "2E" kids are pretty incredible at being able to compensate for various struggles!) However, if she reads well, spells well, and pronounces words correctly, I do wonder if she simply didn't understand what you were asking her to do. I think I would explore that angle first. Try directly teaching her the short vowel sounds--point to letters, say the short sounds, and have her repeat. When she has those down, teach her the long vowel sounds with a similar strategy. 

 

Work on some phonological awareness skills with her--see how she does with some rhyming and segmenting activities--work on them incrementally like in this article. If she struggles with these types of activities, then it's definitely worth pursuing whether something else is going on.