ADD/ADHD = lazy?

[ktgrok]

No, I am wary of the idea that much of ADHD is a misdiagnosis - that is to say, is it just another label for what we used to call and still should call laziness?

 

I guess what I am saying is that I am not sure if I trust the whole paradigm - partly because it has been so misused and incorrect, and partly because it seems pretty biased on the whole against male behavior.

 

It would be so much easier if we could just jump forward 100 years and look back and see whether people 100 years from now think we are as crazy for drugging ADHD kids, or even thinking ADHD is a thing, as we think people 100 years ago were for electroshock or bloodletting or something.

 

(I don't mean to directly imply that ADHD doesn't exist, yada yada, please don't take offense.  I am just speaking honestly - psychological diagnoses are kind of nebulous, historically)

 

First, the people here posting that they themselves have this problem are all  women, not young boys in a classroom. 

 

SEcond, even if it is more boys, lots of diseases or issues effect one sex more than the other. Doesn't make those problems not real. 

[Tanaqui]

You've repeatedly referred to your own behavior as "laziness", "selfishness", a sign that you "don't care enough" about your loved ones to refrain from "inconveniencing" them, "obnoxious", a "moral failing". You've also said that if you do have ADHD, that taking medication would be "taking the easy way out".

 

Exactly what are we supposed to infer from all this?

[eternalsummer]

Ok, if you are generous and forgiving and diligent, how can you be lazy and selfish? If you WANT to help others and are motivated to do so, and yet don't, that doesn't sound like selfish to me. Selfish people don't want to help others. They don't care what others think. That's selfish. Lazy is not caring if it gets done. 

 

ADHD is caring very much, but not managing to get it done. 

SaveSave

 

 

When you say them like that they do seem sort of mutually exclusive.  Maybe it is a difference in motivation for different circumstances?  Maybe it is just an inability to finish things (I do hate finishing things, and doing the last little part of a long process just makes me want to run away).

 

hmmm

[Tanaqui]

I'm not talking in this instance about ADHD-caused behaviors. I'm talking more about larger moral issues - say, why someone doesn't contribute anything to charity, ever (even though they can) or why they cheat on their taxes, or why they support factory farming, or a million other things.

 

I'm sure there are many interesting studies on those subjects which I'm not going to google for at this very moment.

[eternalsummer]

You've repeatedly referred to your own behavior as "laziness", "selfishness", a sign that you "don't care enough" about your loved ones to refrain from "inconveniencing" them, "obnoxious", a "moral failing". You've also said that if you do have ADHD, that taking medication would be "taking the easy way out".

 

Exactly what are we supposed to infer from all this?

 

I'm not exactly sure what the question means - do you mean, am I trying to imply something that I'm not saying directly?  I am posting stream of consciousness, not with any sort of machination in mind.

 

Or maybe I'm just not understanding what you're asking.

[ktgrok]

 

 

I am just questioning if some behaviors which are in fact negative (not cleaning up after oneself is in fact a negative behavior, among others), which I have had trouble managing, are difficult for me to manage because of something other than lack of willpower, basically.

 

 

this seems pretty easy to figure out. Are you not cleaning up because you don't give a crap about other people's feelings, or because you meant to, but got sidetracked and never got to it?

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[ktgrok]

I dunno, this was the first google result:

http://www.fastweb.com/student-life/articles/the-problem-with-study-drugs

 

This was the second: http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2425&context=utk_graddiss

 

Here's a third: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/778843

 

 

All these students aren't using prescription stimulants because they're *not* effective...

 

It keeps them awake. It doesn't do for them what it does for ADHD people. 

 

If you have horrid anxiety xanax may make you feel more calm. If you don't have anxiety, it may make you feel high and super happy and relaxed. That people who don't have anxiety like it doesn't mean the other people don't actually have true anxiety. 

[Tanaqui]

I'm not exactly sure what the question means - do you mean, am I trying to imply something that I'm not saying directly?  I am posting stream of consciousness, not with any sort of machination in mind.

 

Or maybe I'm just not understanding what you're asking.

 

You basically said people have suggested depression to discredit you because you disagree with us.

 

In reality, people have suggested depression because everything you say about yourself is overwhelmingly negative.

 

You claim that you're happy with yourself, you love the way you are, you wouldn't change a thing - but in the very next post you're saying you are selfish and uncaring.

 

I don't know how you deal with the cognitive dissonance of all this. But either it's true that you're happy with yourself... or it's true that you think you're lazy and selfish and also that laziness and selfishness are bad things, moral failings. I do not think it is possible that you think you're nothing but a huge moral failure and are also really happy with the way you are.

[eternalsummer]

this seems pretty easy to figure out. Are you not cleaning up because you don't give a crap about other people's feelings, or because you meant to, but got sidetracked and never got to it?

SaveSave

 

 

What a lot of society seems to say is that getting sidetracked and never getting to it *means* that I don't give a crap about other people's feelings (that is to say, if I cared more about the other people than the thing that sidetracked me, then I'd clean up).

 

I am not exactly sure how to counter this argument.  It makes sense, maybe because I have heard it for so long?  I cannot tell.  It is hard to be objective because of course I'd *like* to be not morally responsible for my own poor cleaning habits.

[ktgrok]

What a lot of society seems to say is that getting sidetracked and never getting to it *means* that I don't give a crap about other people's feelings (that is to say, if I cared more about the other people than the thing that sidetracked me, then I'd clean up).

 

I am not exactly sure how to counter this argument.  It makes sense, maybe because I have heard it for so long?  I cannot tell.  It is hard to be objective because of course I'd *like* to be not morally responsible for my own poor cleaning habits.

 

ok, but they say that because they aren't in your head. You are in your head. Do you care about other people? Do you want to get done the things that need to be done? Do you feel badly if you don't get them done?

[Tanaqui]

I am not exactly sure how to counter this argument.  It makes sense, maybe because I have heard it for so long?  I cannot tell.  It is hard to be objective because of course I'd *like* to be not morally responsible for my own poor cleaning habits.

 

Nobody is saying that.

 

We're suggesting that with a diagnosis, you could more efficiently be taught coping habits that help you, or even, yes, be given access to helpful medication.

[eternalsummer]

You basically said people have suggested depression to discredit you because you disagree with us.

 

In reality, people have suggested depression because everything you say about yourself is overwhelmingly negative.

 

You claim that you're happy with yourself, you love the way you are, you wouldn't change a thing - but in the very next post you're saying you are selfish and uncaring.

 

I don't know how you deal with the cognitive dissonance of all this. But either it's true that you're happy with yourself... or it's true that you think you're lazy and selfish and also that laziness and selfishness are bad things, moral failings. I do not think it is possible that you think you're nothing but a huge moral failure and are also really happy with the way you are.

 

 

Again, (again again), this particular thread is about a negative aspect of my personality, right?  I could start 30 threads about positive aspects of my personality, but this one is about something negative.  That is okay.  I don't have to be positive about everything about myself in order to have a generally good self-image.

 

I am not on the whole selfish and uncaring -but some of my behaviors *are* selfish and uncaring, when looked at objectively (without consideration for cause).  This is true of everyone!  I don't know a single person who doesn't have some personality trait that is less than perfect.

 

Being a moral failure in one aspect (that is, the possible moral failing of not replacing the TP, for example) does not make me a moral failure on the whole.  In fact, I definitely believe I am morally superior to just about everyone in some ways; I don't eat factory farmed food, for instance.  That is something that requires rather a lot of personal sacrifice (some times more than other times) compared to the toilet paper issue.

 

But I'd still like to fix the TP issue, kwim?  Or at least understand it.

[Corraleno]

I dunno, this was the first google result:

http://www.fastweb.com/student-life/articles/the-problem-with-study-drugs

 

This was the second: http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2425&context=utk_graddiss

 

Here's a third: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/778843

 

 

All these students aren't using prescription stimulants because they're *not* effective...

 

For people without ADD, stimulants are only "effective" in the sense of prolonging physical energy — they do not make a nonADD person smarter or more focused or more "academic." In fact, if you read the first article you linked, it said the college students who are most likely to abuse ADD meds are basically frat boys who are C students, so the drugs are not exactly turning them into geniuses are they? What Ritalin is doing for those kids is allowing them to party a lot and then pull an all-nighter before an exam or a paper is due. That is not more effective or efficient than actually focusing and studying appropriately — which is what the meds do for someone with ADD.

 

The fact that some students may believe that "Vitamin R" is making them smarter doesn't mean it's true. The article said students compared it to the way they feel on cocaine. People on coke often feel like they are awesome, brilliant, invincible, but anyone who has worked with them will usually tell you that the coke user's perception of their abilities are not usually accurate — what it feels like from the inside and what it looks like from the outside are two different things.

 

Also, you mentioned in an earlier post that there's a reason why stimulants are banned in athletic competition, and that's also due to the increased physical stamina, not because it makes nonADD athletes smarter or faster or whatever. And in fact, athletes who have a valid medical reason to take ADD meds are usually granted a "TUE" (Therapeutic Use Examption). Simone Biles, Olympic Gold Medalist, has ADD and is legally allowed to compete while taking Ritalin.

[ktgrok]

Also, it's pretty easy to look and see if the same problem happens when you yourself are the one most inconvenienced. For instance, okay, maybe I might not pick up hubby's dry-cleaning because I don't care about him, that's a possibility. But when I consistently leave my purse at the store/restaurant/etc...the only person inconvenienced is me. Obviously, I do care about leaving it there, having to drive back and get it, etc. So that's not lazy or selfish. So if I know I already have this problem in areas that are obviously not about being lazy (takes more time/energy to go back and get it than just remember it the first time) and are not selfish (because the person being hurt by the behavior is me) why would I think when I am forgetful about other things it is selfishness or laziness?

[eternalsummer]

ok, but they say that because they aren't in your head. You are in your head. Do you care about other people? Do you want to get done the things that need to be done? Do you feel badly if you don't get them done?

 

 

Indeed I want to, and yes, I feel rather terrible when I forget things that are important to other people (I forgot to take DD11 to the Mayfair at school last year - I had the start time wrong - and I still feel bad right now!).  But it is hard to reconcile that bad feeling with my continued failing at these kinds of things without concluding that there is something going wrong in the works.  For most of my life, I've called that wrong thing laziness, or maybe forgetfulness or inconsiderateness, depending on the situation.  I think many people probably have a similar thing - some aspect of their personality they'd like to shift but haven't been able to, and have ascribed that inability to either a moral failing of some sort or a mental condition.

[ktgrok]

It also helps that my father is the same way, total absent minded professor, and I will beat up anyone that says that man is selfish or lazy. He's incredibly hard working, and he would give anyone the shirt off his own back if they needed it. So knowing that his forgetfulness doesn't mean he is lazy or selfish, I don't have any reason to think I am. 

[Tanaqui]

I am not on the whole selfish and uncaring -but some of my behaviors *are* selfish and uncaring, when looked at objectively (without consideration for cause).

 

If you're not considering the cause, you're not being objective.

 

[eternalsummer]

Also, it's pretty easy to look and see if the same problem happens when you yourself are the one most inconvenienced. For instance, okay, maybe I might not pick up hubby's dry-cleaning because I don't care about him, that's a possibility. But when I consistently leave my purse at the store/restaurant/etc...the only person inconvenienced is me. Obviously, I do care about leaving it there, having to drive back and get it, etc. So that's not lazy or selfish. So if I know I already have this problem in areas that are obviously not about being lazy (takes more time/energy to go back and get it than just remember it the first time) and are not selfish (because the person being hurt by the behavior is me) why would I think when I am forgetful about other things it is selfishness or laziness?

 

Yes, I think I've always reconciled this by saying to myself that these things obviously aren't important to me (being able to find my glasses or having perfectly clean counters or having homework turned in on time) but since they are important to other people, I should be able to manage doing them correctly when they impact other people.  Does that make sense?  It makes sense in my head but a bit less sense when I write it out.

[8circles]

I think you should be in therapy.  Not because I'm diagnosing you with anything or because I think you should be diagnosed, but because I think that would be an appropriate place to hash-out your internal dialogue & your behaviors and explore these questions and whether or not the critics in your life have anything valid to say.  

 

Continuing to have this "open dialogue" where you're not really listening to anything people say & instead keep coming back with insults doesn't seem to be helping you.  And it's actually hurting a bunch of people.

[ktgrok]

Yes, I think I've always reconciled this by saying to myself that these things obviously aren't important to me (being able to find my glasses or having perfectly clean counters or having homework turned in on time) but since they are important to other people, I should be able to manage doing them correctly when they impact other people.  Does that make sense?  It makes sense in my head but a bit less sense when I write it out.

 

Trust me, it doesn't make sense. You are saying you wish you could do better, you want to be considerate, you feel badly when you aren't and then label that selfish. That's not selfish. That's having a problem. Selfish is not caring, not wanting to be considerate, etc. 

 

Someone who wants to walk across the room to get a slice of cake but has a broken or paralyzed leg might LOOK the same as someone who doesn't feel like walking across the room. But the person themselves should be able to realize "I want that cake over there, but can't get it" versus "I just don't care about that cake over there, i'm not hungry"

[eternalsummer]

It also helps that my father is the same way, total absent minded professor, and I will beat up anyone that says that man is selfish or lazy. He's incredibly hard working, and he would give anyone the shirt off his own back if they needed it. So knowing that his forgetfulness doesn't mean he is lazy or selfish, I don't have any reason to think I am. 

 

 

Neither of my parents are/were forgetful, but my dad did have a million phobias, some quite strong.  They prevented him from doing some things that from the outside might look like he was uncaring - he would only come to some concerts, for instance, and would stand at the back and leave early.  He was so nervous around crowds that he only grocery shopped at 6 in the morning.  I never doubted that he cared as much as any other parent, though.  I will have to think about this some more.  Seeing an analogous situation in someone you are certain of is easier than seeing yourself, sometimes. (for me)

[eternalsummer]

I think you should be in therapy.  Not because I'm diagnosing you with anything or because I think you should be diagnosed, but because I think that would be an appropriate place to hash-out your internal dialogue & your behaviors and explore these questions and whether or not the critics in your life have anything valid to say.  

 

Continuing to have this "open dialogue" where you're not really listening to anything people say & instead keep coming back with insults doesn't seem to be helping you.  And it's actually hurting a bunch of people.

 

 

I really wasn't trying to insult anyone.   You guys can be kind of hard to talk to, as a community, tbh.  

[maize]

Yes, I think I've always reconciled this by saying to myself that these things obviously aren't important to me (being able to find my glasses or having perfectly clean counters or having homework turned in on time) but since they are important to other people, I should be able to manage doing them correctly when they impact other people. Does that make sense? It makes sense in my head but a bit less sense when I write it out.

I think you probably grew up like most of us without being offered any explanation for these kinds of failures other than laziness, selfishness, or not caring. So of course you learned to frame them that way.

 

And now you are considering the possibility of a different framework, one that actually has a fair bit of scientific research behind it--that some brains have functional differences or deficits that make it very difficult to stay organized and on task.

 

I actually went through this process myself not so long ago. I also was taught to believe that my failings were the result of laziness or not caring or a lack of willpower--things that ought to have been under my control. But...when I look back now...it doesn't fit my experience. All of that homework that didn't get done? People said I didn't care. Baloney. I was constantly stressed because of my inability to stay on top of homework. I did care. But caring didn't give me the ability to keep my life and responsibilities under control.

Edited November 5, 2016 by maize

[8circles]

I really wasn't trying to insult anyone.   You guys can be kind of hard to talk to, as a community, tbh.  

 

Would there be another group who would say,"Oh, you think I really don't have this medical condition and just have character flaws instead?  Sure, let's really talk about that.  Let me continue to tell you how I suffer from this condition and you can just keep repeating that it might be a character flaw.  This is great.  Very cerebral.  We're so open-minded.  We should do this more often."

[ktgrok]

Neither of my parents are/were forgetful, but my dad did have a million phobias, some quite strong.  They prevented him from doing some things that from the outside might look like he was uncaring - he would only come to some concerts, for instance, and would stand at the back and leave early.  He was so nervous around crowds that he only grocery shopped at 6 in the morning.  I never doubted that he cared as much as any other parent, though.  I will have to think about this some more.  Seeing an analogous situation in someone you are certain of is easier than seeing yourself, sometimes. (for me)

 

My dad didn't have phobias, but on top of the absent minded professor thing (he forgot to pick us up from school more than once, and I'm sure was more upset than we were about it, and has never remembered to bring a grocery list, etc), he also is likely closing in on the Aspergers/ASD area. He shopped daily because if you had more than two bags of groceries our store would insist on a bag boy walking out to the car with you to help you. And he could NOT handle the small talk, etc. So he'd shop daily so he could buy just enough that he could carry himself to avoid talking to the bag person :)

 

He also paged himself on his pager to fake work appointments to get out of parties. My mother was not amused. 

 

My oldest has Asperger's, and it helps to think of the traits my dad has, and how awesome my dad is, and know it's going to be okay. 

[lauraw4321]

People on this board love people or are people with ADD. You have said things like "God forbid" to medication, and several deragatory comments about over-diagnosis and over-medication. The "selfish" and "lazy" adjectives you are using for yourself would also apply to us or to our loved ones. Do you not see any harm in that?

[ktgrok]

I really wasn't trying to insult anyone.   You guys can be kind of hard to talk to, as a community, tbh.  

 

When you speculate that maybe people diagnosed ADHD are just lazy and/or selfish, and you say it to people that have told you they have ADHD, you are saying THEY are possibly selfish or lazy. How else can they take that, than as an insult?

[8circles]

I really wasn't trying to insult anyone.   You guys can be kind of hard to talk to, as a community, tbh.  

 

Poor social skills can also be another symptom of ADHD.  Really.  You should do some actual research.

[LucyStoner]

I dunno, this was the first google result:

http://www.fastweb.com/student-life/articles/the-problem-with-study-drugs

 

This was the second: http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2425&context=utk_graddiss

 

Here's a third: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/778843

 

 

All these students aren't using prescription stimulants because they're *not* effective...

Here's the thing though. Students with ADHD don't respond to these drugs (when used properly) the same way that students and others without ADHD who are taking the drugs for the stimulant affects. Do you, or do you not understand that? When my husband takes his medication it helps him even out and maintain calm, he does not seem to be on any form of speed. If he takes his next dose too soon, he might well fall asleep. People without ADHD don't sleep on ADD meds.

 

I know speed. I've never used any illegal drugs but I have known a lot of addicts*. Speed causes hyper activity, anxiety, paranoia, insomnia. Tweakers tweak. Accurately dx ADHD patients do not tweak out on their meds. Even if they are trying to. My husband more closely resembles a tweaker if he's NOT on his meds. 😂

 

*Speed and meth addicts I have known range in terms of their functionality. Ranging from a teacher at my high school (not a rumor- she was convicted of crimes she committed to support her habit) to agitated frat boys to people so high they can't maintain normal life.

Edited November 5, 2016 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

Ummm, tweakers tweak may be my new user title.

[KathyBC]

.

 

I have a DS who has ADHD behaviors.  We will never get him a label or (god forbid) meds; it is mostly manageable, esp. with homeschooling.

 

As a parent who easily compensated for their child, and who later recognized ADD in hindsight.... they will not always be homeschooled. They will not always live at home. Consider right now what skills they possess to live completely independently. It would be much easier to work though a diagnosis, coping skills, strategies and/or even possibly meds when they *are* homeschooled and have you to navigate those waters with them.

 

 

 

What a lot of society seems to say is that getting sidetracked and never getting to it *means* that I don't give a crap about other people's feelings (that is to say, if I cared more about the other people than the thing that sidetracked me, then I'd clean up).

 

I am not exactly sure how to counter this argument.  It makes sense, maybe because I have heard it for so long?  I cannot tell.  It is hard to be objective because of course I'd *like* to be not morally responsible for my own poor cleaning habits.

 

Considering there might be a *reason* you get sidetracked more often than others and doing something about it would actually be taking responsibility. Please read Smart but Scattered. 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by KathyBC

[Corraleno]

I am not on the whole selfish and uncaring -but some of my behaviors *are* selfish and uncaring, when looked at objectively (without consideration for cause).  This is true of everyone!  I don't know a single person who doesn't have some personality trait that is less than perfect.

 

Being a moral failure in one aspect (that is, the possible moral failing of not replacing the TP, for example) does not make me a moral failure on the whole.  In fact, I definitely believe I am morally superior to just about everyone in some ways; I don't eat factory farmed food, for instance.  That is something that requires rather a lot of personal sacrifice (some times more than other times) compared to the toilet paper issue.

 

Being less than perfect does not mean that any less-than-perfect behaviors equal a "moral failing." The fact that anyone would even consider attaching the term "moral failure" to forgetting to replace a roll of TP boggles my mind. And actually, I think the fact that you don't see how bizarre that is, is the real problem here.

 

I think your problem is not forgetfulness or ADD or depression, it's this strangely inflexible black-&-white thinking you have about this issue:

Forgetfulness is either "mental illness" or it's laziness & selfishness.

A person is either their "true self" without meds, or some distorted, unreal personality on meds.

A person is either undiagnosed and therefore happily unlabeled or they are diagnosed and labeled with a terrible stigma attached.

A person either accepts that the public school paradigm w/regard to the behavior of little boys is 100% accurate and chooses meds or they disagree with that paradigm and therefore avoid meds at all costs.

 

These are thinking errors, and they have nothing to do with either "moral failings" or ADD. 

[Tanaqui]

I really wasn't trying to insult anyone.   You guys can be kind of hard to talk to, as a community, tbh.  

 

In at least one comment you say that distractedness and forgetfulness on the level of forgetting to change out the toilet paper is a "moral failing", even if you can't help it.

 

Now you're saying that insulting people is okay if it's unintentional.

 

Well, which is it? Is it a moral failing to accidentally cause a minor amount of harm to other people, or isn't it?

 

(Or is it only a moral failing if you decide not to take the positive steps that can help you refrain from making that same mistake over and over again?)

[Tanaqui]

I am not on the whole selfish and uncaring -but some of my behaviors *are* selfish and uncaring, when looked at objectively (without consideration for cause).  This is true of everyone!  I don't know a single person who doesn't have some personality trait that is less than perfect.

 

Oh, I meant to address this before and I forgot.

 

You may think that other people don't live up to the standards you have set as "perfect", and that's fine... but I have to say, as somebody who is mostly happy with herself, I don't consider any of my personality traits to be character flaws, and I never have. Even if they impact my life in a negative way. Even if I would like to ditch them.

 

I don't know which of us is more normal in this respect. I will say that I definitely do struggle with depression. (Guess what, it's comorbid with autism!) Perhaps it is normal for healthy people to think this sort of thing. I don't know. If so, I'm really glad I'm not.

[Code Lyoko]

I really wasn't trying to insult anyone.   You guys can be kind of hard to talk to, as a community, tbh.  

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

I'm sorry that you feel people here are hard to talk to.  I am confused as to what you were expecting in this thread?  People ARE talking to you.  You asked questions and people have answered to the best of their ability.  You seemed to reject 90% of what was said out of hand so people continued to respond with specifics from their own lives as well as reflections and scientific data and links and etc. etc.  

 

Your responses seemed to be turned in a very negative way towards yourself and others diagnosed with ADHD so people expressed concern for you and felt a bit hurt themselves.  They kept talking, though.  They didn't run away from the thread.  All they know is what you posted.  Since your posts seems to be negative about yourself people expressed concern because they care.  

 

And even though your posts seemed pretty negative to others who have ADHD and there are many on this thread that have ADHD or family members who have ADHD and many were hurt by your posts they continued to try and help you see their view.  You continued to throw what they were saying back at them as if they have no idea what they are talking about.  And still people are posting and trying to have a discussion.  

 

Honestly, I don't see people unwilling to talk and discuss.  They are very willing.  That doesn't mean they are going all say "Yes, you are right, people labeled with ADHD are actually lazy and selfish and this is all some sort of made up diagnosis to control young boys."  because that has not been their personal experience.  People are sharing their personal experiences.  Are you saying they are lying?  Badly mislead?  Seriously delusional?  What sort of discussion were you hoping for?

 

People ARE trying to have a discussion with you.  But perhaps you are not hearing what you wanted to hear and until you do you are going to continue to say that no one is interested in having a discussion?  

[gardenmom5]

I am unclear on how a drug meant to change behavior doesn't change personality, when a fair amount of what we consider personality is a person's behavior.

 

If you have two people who are very similar, except that one is impulsive and hyper, and the other is sedate and considerate, do you not say that their personalities are different in those ways?

you need to understand the difference  between NT brains and add brains.   stimulants in the NT brain- speeds things up, makes them high.  gives them energy, etc.  does other stuff - that in the long term can be damaging.

for the add brain  . .  the stimulant actually triggers the brain to work the way it is supposed to . and. it. calms. down so it can  function.  it doesn't speed it up, or make it high.

 

This is just anecdotal, but DD says that the meds "made her feel like herself".  You can easily ask how would she know what "herself" felt like if she never felt it before being on meds.  I don't know the answer to to that, I only know that is how she describes it.

 

In her evaluation DD was in the 12th percentile for short term memory and whatever the holding-a-thought-while-processing category was.  That is an identifiable deficit in brain functioning compared to average.  I don't think taking medication that helps correct a deficit is the same as taking medicine to enhance something beyond normal human bounds.  And from what I understand, the medicine doesn't even have the same effect.  Much like methadone for a chronic pain sufferer does not produce the same effects as it does on a healthy person.

my mutation also leaves a predisposition for depression, so I take 5htp.

when I started it - that's how I felt.  I finally felt like "myself".  it was more like it cleared up the clutter.

 

 

eta: and I'm out of like. :ohmy:

Edited November 5, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

this came across my feed, and I thought it was very timely.

 

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/adhd-women-better-together-festival?utm_source=broadlyfbus

 

 

[gardenmom5]

one more think I wanted to add.  you were asking about the 'strengths' of add.  (and also applies to hfasd,capd,etc.)  the ability to turn something  on it's head and see things from other angles.

 

a number of times after  I made a comment, in class, etc. - something that was obvious to me - wasn't to other people.  even teachers, people who had a whole lot more 'formal' education, experience, status, etc. than me - would comment "oh, I'd never thought of it that way".  many different areas, but all were observations outside the standard way of looking at things - and usually opened up options becasue of seeing it other ways.

 

 

[regentrude]

@Regentrude - do you have me blocked?  I feel like I've answered this, but I'll try with a specific example. 

 

My DH works on rockets. Big ones that will one day go to the moon and Mars. He was frustrated with the commercially available software that was used to optimize rockets. It made bad assumptions and it had variables that you couldn't change. So he decided to make his own software program. Basically you should say, ok, I want to build a rocket that would go this far, this fast, this much thrust, weighs no more than this and costs no more than this. And it would spit out what kind of metal you  should use, what kind of shape, how many stages it should be, what kind of stiffeners it should use. This program was so awesome, that it is used by folks in the industry and referred to by his last name.

 

DH described developing this program as like building a giant mansion our of cards in his head. Every placement of every card had to be carefully thought about to makes sure that it fit properly and didn't disturb something else. If he was interrupted, it would sometime take him hours to be able to get back to where he had left off.  He ignored everything while working on this. He forgot to eat, to go to the bathroom. I would have to call him to remind him to come home.  He came to the conclusion (correctly, I think) that he was only able to do this because of his ADD. He could be inattentive to everything else and devote all of his mental energy to this software.

 

I sometimes have to concentrate on things, but nowhere to the depth and length of time that he described. Because my brain is also keeping up with stuff like where my keys are, what time it is, when I need to leave, etc.

 

No, I don't have you blocked - why should I? If I overlooked your answer in this long thread, I apologize.

 

Thanks for the example. Great that your DH is able to do this - but I have seen similar super focused concentration in people who do not have ADHD but are extremely organized and have high executive functioning.  When my DH is embroiled in a difficult calculation or in programming or building his computer cluster, he forgets everything else until the problem is solved, including eating, coming home, or talking to me while we have a conversation. It is a trait I find rather often in my physicist colleagues and don't think is unique to ADD.

Edited November 5, 2016 by regentrude

[ktgrok]

one more think I wanted to add.  you were asking about the 'strengths' of add.  (and also applies to hfasd,capd,etc.)  the ability to turn something  on it's head and see things from other angles.

 

a number of times after  I made a comment, in class, etc. - something that was obvious to me - wasn't to other people.  even teachers, people who had a whole lot more 'formal' education, experience, status, etc. than me - would comment "oh, I'd never thought of it that way".  many different areas, but all were observations outside the standard way of looking at things - and usually opened up options becasue of seeing it other ways.

 

Yes. I think ADHD people are often "big picture" people. We are the ones that do see the forest, although we may miss some of those trees :)

 

I'm also very good at seeing both sides of an argument, and good at odd things like being able to get up with a baby and go back to sleep and get up and go back to sleep. 

SaveSave

Edited November 5, 2016 by ktgrok

[Guest]

I'm super late to this party, but maybe it's the kind of party where everyone is happily tipsy, and no one will mind.

 

I have several, not necessarily related, thoughts.

 

First of all, OP you just can't go around speaking dismissively about the things that people use to feel OK (in this case, add meds) and not expect to be called out on it. You are surely aware that not everyone feels the same as you do about medicine for this. I think, fwiw (I am AWARE, not much lol) it's how flippant your tone was that grated, not your anti-med stance....though for sure there will always be pro-meds stalwarts. Just accept them as a fact of life.

 

OTOH, There are VERY GOOD reasons not to take ADD meds. They are not a panacea, and it's not straightforward. And when people do not want to take ADD medicine, or even get a formal diagnosis, their reasons are almost certainly complex and they are often (especially when someone is making this decision for themselves, as opposed to for their children) very informed about what they need. No one else could possibly be MORE informed, in fact.

 

IOW, you have the accept that adult people often know what is best for their own selves, even when they don't phrase everything in such a way as to convince YOU of the correctness of their decisions at this time. This isn't debate club, it's someone just chatting about something that is important in their life.

 

And to the point, ADD and laziness/selfishness are not mutually exclusive. My ADD adults and I got a laugh out of that idea. They are just people lol. OF COURSE they do shitty things sometimes. But, indeed, a moment's self-reflection will tell them immediately when they are being jerks vs. when they are having an ADD moment.

 

OP, if you're being inconsiderate and you can help it....YOU BETTER. You just get this one shot at life. Do your best. If, OTOH, you're trying to do better and can't, it's time to get help. I have GREAT NEWS for you! You can work on EF issues without getting a formal diagnosis, including working with a therapist (not a prescription-enabled psychiatrist). But also, get Smart But Scattered and __do the things__. I mean, start small.

 

Lastly, anecdotally, I can tell you (since it came up) that having the (correct) diagnosis of ADD, coupled with years of explicit training in coping methods AND medication (!) is not necessarily *the* thing to help someone succeed in college. I know a man with ADD that did not find success in University until he stopped taking medication and instead just embraced what he was, wholesale, and got through school his way. This included such "strategies" as trading work to get a scribe to take down, verbatim, his stream-of-consciouness that he could go back through later ad edit into a proper paper. This is different than the services provided, who would not just write down whatever he said. He kept an insane schedule. He waited til the verrrrrry last minute to do everything. .....and his grades improved by *a lot* over when he'd been working diligently like a "normal person" thanks to meds and learned coping strategies. This is a person whose family sought early help, whose ADD was never particularly stigmatized within his immediate family (though certainly from other parties).

 

It just depends on the individual. And! needs fluctuate. What's right right now, might be wrong next year. Regardless, there is exactly one person that can make that call.

 

Also, OP, AD/hD is very, very real. You're wrong about that. But I think you're absolutely correct that the environment is what makes the difference between that being OK at any given time, or not.

 

And adding another voice of support to the idea that ADD people can't "just" decide to set a reminder or whatever a normie would do. I do think, though, that if given the space to do so, ADD people can find a way to do what THEY need to do.

 

Space for that i a sticky wicket, though. {all of} Our lives are very very full of expectations from without.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

One thing I did not see mentioned, is that if we are talking about adult, married people with ADD...

 

there is no reason, for example, that the non-ADD spouse can't see to it that the bathroom has a pile of toilet paper, if empty toilet paper rolls are a THING for that household.

 

Aside from just plain old not wanting to do that, but then in that case, the non-ADD spouse better get real good at accepting what they can not change, since they don't want to change what they can.

 

For example, if I had an ADD spouse and he kept not remembering to change the TP, I would install a rack on the wall and *I* would make sure it was always full of (multiple rolls of) TP. It would be *my* deal.

 

IOW, being part of a strong team is, itself, an excellent ADD strategy.

[Code Lyoko]

OP, I agree with Okbud, being part of a team that understands and accepts and is proactive about ADD/ADHD (or whatever the underlying challenges are that a family may be facing) can make all the difference.  Without a team, things can get really tough on everyone.

 

And I also agree that meds are NOT right for everyone.  Absolutely.  And I think most people here would be supporting you 100% in an informed decision not to use medications.   Of course they would.  Why?  Because there ARE side effects and sometimes they DON'T work for specific people/situations and sometimes they AREN'T necessary if there is solid understanding and support systems in place and sometimes going without the meds really is the better option.  

 

You got hit with a lot of stories of how meds can help because your "god forbid" comment and future posts indicated you do not have a solid grasp of ADHD medications.  Your comments indicated your decision to not even get evaluations (and no, getting evaluations is not necessarily the best option) was not made based on solid research and understanding.  

 

Also your honestly fairly flippant dismissal of using those meds and your implication that anyone that does use meds has been tricked or misdiagnosed and has doped their child or themselves into oblivion and deliberately altered their personality just so they are compliant and it makes life more convenient was insulting, hurtful and showed an amazing level of ignorance regarding medications for ADHD/ADD.

 

But you came here for an open discussion and I think that is great.  Just accept that your views and attitudes are going to be challenged.  That can happen with any discussion.  Doesn't mean the discussion isn't worthwhile.  It just means that maybe there are a lot of people who have had first hand experiences that do not agree with your views.  The discussion is still interesting and worthwhile, IMHO.  If you have a thick enough skin I think we all may find value in continuing it.  

 

Best wishes.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Code Lyoko

[MercyA]

I'm going to be a voice of dissent here.

 

I don't think the OP has a poor self-image. I think she just wants to understand her continual struggle with behaviors that inconvenience those she loves. She wants to know if those behaviors are the result of an inherently flawed character (or inherent laziness, or selfishness, or whatever you'd like to call it) or a glitch in her brain, or both. I don't think those are strange questions. I've often asked them myself. 

 

OP, I think the way you will ultimately answer these questions depends largely on whether you believe you have a self, an identity, a soul, outside of your physical brain. 

 

You might be interested in these articles as a springboard for more exploration of the topic: from Psychology Today, You Are Not Your Brain, and from Discover, Rewiring the Brain.

 

Best to you, ananemone. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by MercyA

[Guest]

I'm going to be the lone voice of dissent here.

 

I don't think the OP has a poor self-image. I think she just wants to understand her continual struggle with behaviors that inconvenience those she loves. She wants to know if those behaviors are the result of an inherently flawed character (or inherent laziness, or selfishness, or whatever you'd like to call it) or a glitch in her brain, or both. I don't think those are strange questions. I've often asked them myself. 

 

OP, I think the way you will ultimately answer these questions depends largely on whether you believe you have a self, an identity, a soul, outside of your physical brain. 

 

 

I agree! I meant to say that as well.

[MercyA]

I agree! I meant to say that as well.

 

I posted before I read your post.  :)

Edited November 5, 2016 by MercyA

[Greta]

this came across my feed, and I thought it was very timely.

 

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/adhd-women-better-together-festival?utm_source=broadlyfbus

 

 

From the article:  ADHD symptoms can appear later in girls than they do in boys, which challenges the common perception that the disorder is a kid thing. 

 

That sentence may have just changed my life!  I've known most of my adult life that something is "wrong" with me.  For the most part I've just viewed it as a personal flaw/failing.  My darkest fear is that it's early-onset Alzheimer's.  I've considered ADD, especially when I saw a few little glimmers of the symptoms of it in my daughter, but then I dismissed it because I always did well in school, and I kind of thought the defining sign is that you have trouble concentrating in school.  I always did well in school, so that can't be me, right?  

 

Except that when I got to college, I continued to do well academically (no trouble memorizing all of those molecule shapes and reactions in organic chemistry) but I got really stupid (self-perception, not talking about anyone else!) in other ways:  forgetting important appointments, losing important items like car keys, etc.

 

I was a really strange dichotomy.  On the one hand, I had such obsessively neat, thorough, organized (color coded!) class notes that I had a reputation among my classmates for having the best notes, which others would frequently ask to borrow.  But on the other hand, my dorm room was always such a disaster that my friends lovingly teased me, not understanding how anyone could possibly live that way (while I didn't know how to live any other way!).

 

My poor husband cannot comprehend how he can ask me to do something, and two minutes later I've completely forgotten and I'm doing something else entirely.  He's patient and kind, but once in frustration he did ask me, "what exactly is it you're thinking about, when you're not thinking about what you should be thinking about?"  I don't really know how to explain it to him, but the answer is:  approximately five quadrillion other things.  To use the toilet paper example:  between the moment I realize the toilet paper needs to be refilled, and the moment where I've finished up, washed my hands, and can actually retrieve some, ten or twenty other thoughts have flown through my head, and at least one of them is bound to be more compelling than toilet paper, so the memory of the toilet paper is long gone.  I can't hold onto a thought for 30 seconds, and that honestly scares me.

 

Among my most brilliant achievements:  forgetting to take my dog in for her surgery appointment, forgetting to pick up my friend's daughter after school like I said I would, leaving the poor kid stranded for 45 minutes -- I still get a knot in my stomach every time I think about that one even though it was years ago and she was incredibly calm and forgiving about the whole thing -- getting the time confused on when I was supposed to pick my own daughter up once, leaving her completely distraught, in tears, panic-stricken thinking that mom had gotten killed in a car accident!   :crying:   But my adult life is just one long series of events like that.  

 

Clearly, I need some coping strategies!

 

I've figured out a few on my own over the years, but I still could use some help - or a lot of help.  I am going to read Smart but Scattered and ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life.  Are there any other good resources I should know about?  Anything else that I should do?  Maybe it sounds crazy, I don't know, but I honestly do worry about Alzheimer's.  It terrifies me.  Should I talk to a doctor, so that maybe (hopefully?) I can put that fear to rest if nothing else?

[LucyStoner]

Greta- definitely talk to your doctor. Might as well get some answers and hopeful alleviation of the

Alzheimer's fears.

 

One reason why I think girls aren't dx or aren't dx until later is that cuturally we push girls to learn and do things that function as coping mechanisms. Certain behaviors are not socially acceptable in girls and girls get good at hiding it. I have a lot of female friends who are my age and are. Just now getting ASD or ADHD dx.

Edited November 5, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Heathermomster]

I've considered myself lazy for, oh, decades anyway. I have a tendency to forget things, I don't do many things (esp. paperwork) until the last minute, I am messy, my purse is one large bag full of whatever I felt like putting in there, I have to actively combat having a messy house. I don't remember to put a new roll of toilet paper on the toilet paper thinger. ETA: I could list 100 more things here. I leave the laundry in the washer. I never fold laundry. I cannot maintain long distance friendships as I just can't make myself send letters or emails regularly. I sign up for things and then back out (am getting better at this). I chew with my mouth open. I don't bring in the empty trash cans for days after trash day. etc etc.

 

I'm bright, so I got through school okay once I had a planner (which we were very well and rigorously trained in using, and I used to good effect). I still did some absolutely crazy things like forgetting community service until the very last second (we needed community service for weighted grades, which were more important to me than almost anything as I wanted class rank) - [ETA: that was a lie: I waited until well after the last second, and had to ask the principal personally to give me an exception to turn it in late, which she only did because the #10 guy in our class also forgot his community service) or leaving my (school-owned) piccolo in the parking lot or forgetting a movie date with a friend. I was a NM scholar, I got the IB Diploma (a ton of work!), etc.

 

But I have always thought of myself as lazy.

 

I have a DS who has ADHD behaviors. We will never get him a label or (god forbid) meds; it is mostly manageable, esp. with homeschooling.

 

But I wonder how many people - maybe myself included? maybe not? - have always thought of themselves or their kids as lazy when what they really mean is ADD.

 

Or, alternatively, do we call people ADD when what we really mean is lazy? Obviously it is overdiagnosed today (10% of children and a higher percentage of boys being labelled mentally ill as children suggests something wrong with the system rather than the children, imo) but I don't know how far that goes.

 

Just musing here, and wondering if anyone else has reconsidered their perception of their own failings in this way, or the other way around.

I am intimately acquainted with ADHD, mental illness, and one non-stimulant drug for inattention.

 

It is none of my business to have an opinion about how other people medicate themselves or their children. This is a medical issue not a moral one. The world isn't perfect. We all do what is best for our families and are not answerable to complete strangers. Mercy..

 

My DS has both compromised processing speed-working memory and is gifted. He was diagnosed inattentive ADHD two years ago. The kid works his bum off. He maintains friendships because his peers are important to him. He empties the trash without prompting and complains when the family overfills it.

 

BTW, forgetting to replace TP on a roll is not a moral issue; however, cheating on one's spouse or stealing money is a significant issue.

 

My very thoughtful son feels badly when he forgets simple things. That is why DS is willingly working with a CBT who specializes in EF so that he can learn strategy to help sort himself out.

 

When I come across poor functioning adults with attention difficulties, I feel badly for them and their families. My understanding of ADHD and EF developed by dealing with my children.

[Heathermomster]

sorry dp.. 

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Heathermomster