ADD/ADHD = lazy?

[goldberry]

 

 

there is MENTAL energy required for everything we do.  things we do on autopilot - require very little energy.  however, for adhd brains - there is no such thing as autopilot.  basic things take more energy.

 

I get this, having struggled with depression.  When depressed, I look at the full trashcan and want to cry, and the laundry pile and want to cry, and those basic things suddenly require too much energy to deal with or even look at.  I hadn't thought of ADD like that.

[Code Lyoko]

DD does take medication. It helped tremendously.  But it doesn't last equally all day and she uses it mostly when doing schoolwork, etc.

 

To all who responded to my question... THANK YOU.  Really.  For responding and not flaming me.  I have tried and continue to try to understand this.  

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

It isn't easy.  Hang in there.  :)

[LucyStoner]

Yes, I see pain conditions as similar - I guess maybe "things people used to handle but not longer handle so now they take drugs and/or sell the drugs because it's not like cancer where you would never sell your drugs because cancer is a real problem"?

I realize this sounds really derogatory and I don't mean it that way in a specific sense, but obviously in a general sense we as a society have a huge problem wherein we proscribe and maybe take more drugs than we need (thus the black market)

"Pain conditions"? You mean like cancer or surgery recovery? Because people resell narcotic pain relief, the most effective forms were not available to my mother via her insurance. When she was dying of cancer. Because she was disabled even before the cancer she was on Medicaid. The state wouldn't let other people pay to fill her prescriptions either. Her oncologist got so pissed off,he was like "clearly this woman is not abusing anything". She wasn't able to stay at home as long as she would have liked because the pain at the end was so great. At hospice, she could get pain relief as it was needed.

[8circles]

Thanks for explaining. If it is not too personal a question: why would somebody who experiences this frustration every day NOT want pharmacological help?

 

I don't know because I *do* want pharmacological help.  I can guess that at least in part it is due to the stigma with these medications.  Even the OP has said "medications, god forbid". As is it's some horrible thing that is to be avoided at all costs.  There's also a school of thought that is anti-every-label so getting an actual ADHD dx isn't even something they'd be inclined to do.  

 

My father was a pediatrician.  I don't know what his thoughts were on ADHD but I'm guessing he thought it was nonsense.  My parents called me lazy and all kind of other negative-character words and I grew up believing it.  As an adult, I've been dx with ADHD but haven't started meds for several reasons, too cumbersome to discuss here, but I plan to ASAP.  I have been self-medicating for decades with coffee and it does help.

[maize]

I understand the forgetting. But, to take the tp example: after that happened the second time, would one then not come up with a long term strategy to address the problem? Such as stashing an entire package of tp in each bathroom and replacing it regularly, so that one does not have to think about replacing tp on a daily basis?

Or writing down phone reminders immediately on one's hand?

I get the forgetting, but don't people develop compensation strategies so they can function? Or can't they do that either?

I'd have to remember that there was a problem involving toilet paper, without that thought slipping out of my mind as well. And then I'd have to figure out some ADHD-proof solution--which is a major challenge!

 

I do often write reminders on my hands, but that's no good if I don't think to look at my hand.

 

Nice tidy orderly minds that don't regularly lose track of stuff are entirely outside my experience. The strategies that would work for a mind like that are beyond my reach.

 

Yes I have coping strategies, but implementing each one is mentally challenging and tiring. And there just isn't enough time and energy in a day to strategize all the functionality that comes automatically to someone with normal executive function.

 

Imagine taking every single dayly task you do mostly without thinking--getting dressed in the morning, preparing a meal, clearing dishes from the table, getting your car keys, gathering the things you need for work, checking phone messages--and then imagine that every single one of those tasks takes as much mental effort as organizing a family vacation. Every single tiny thing.

 

It's exhausting, and entirely impossible for some stuff not to slip.

Edited November 4, 2016 by maize

[LucyStoner]

My husband was dx with ADD as an adult. He is brilliant and extremely hard working.

 

I really caution people from seeing it as "just a label." Understanding what the hell was going on not only saved his sense of self value (he thought he was stupid, crazy and lazy despite ample evidence to the contrary), it also helped save our marriage.

[Code Lyoko]

I get this, having struggled with depression.  When depressed, I look at the full trashcan and want to cry, and the laundry pile and want to cry, and those basic things suddenly require too much energy to deal with or even look at.  I hadn't thought of ADD like that.

Actually, the mental energy thing is a factor I don't know that many take into consideration.  When your brain is running full tilt, trying to focus on one specific task long enough to complete it takes a LOT of mental energy.  

[goldberry]

I was also a "no medication" person.  Here is what convinced me that in our particular case, meds were the right choice.

 

When I first married DH, I never understood his lack of self-confidence.  He often referred to himself as "slow" and "not very smart", which contradicted what I knew about him.  Later I realized he was seriously ADD and had developed coping strategies as an adult to function. 

 

When DD was first having problems, she was saying the same things:  I'm so stupid, why can't I do this...  Then it started her not being willing to try new things, because, "nah, I'm not smart enough for that, I'd never be able to do that".  She was not only down on herself, she was restricting herself and what she even attempted to do based on this false self-perception.  

 

That is when we decided on meds.  For her, they worked.  She bloomed.  As she gained self-confidence, she began reaching out and trying new things.  For her, it was totally worth the side effects and potential side effects.  You could say that my husband was able to manage his ADD without meds and by coping strategies alone.  And he was able to manage it, but not without damage - permanent damage - to his self-perception and self-confidence.  I was not willing to let that happen to DD.  

 

Every situation is different, but that was ours.

[LucyStoner]

I understand the forgetting. But, to take the tp example: after that happened the second time, would one then not come up with a long term strategy to address the problem? Such as stashing an entire package of tp in each bathroom and replacing it regularly, so that one does not have to think about replacing tp on a daily basis?

Or writing down phone reminders immediately on one's hand?

I get the forgetting, but don't people develop compensation strategies so they can function? Or can't they do that either?

My husband had a lot of compensation strategies. Thing is, such strategies are only as effective as your ability to remember that you made them. 😂

 

It's also very energy intense to have to think about things in such detail all the time, even the little things. So it's common for people to set up a few fail safes for the really important shit and focus on sticking to those at the expense of trying to do all that for everything. Where are the kids, the keys, the shoes, the work schedule and so forth rather than investing that much into things like where the toilet paper or the spaghetti pot is.

 

It's easy for me to set up systems and use them while it's hard for him to set up systems and remember that they exist. That's ok...it's easy for him to pick up an instrument he's never played and learn the basics without lessons and it's hard to the point of impossible for me to do so.

Edited November 4, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Code Lyoko]

I'd have to remember that there was a problem involving toilet paper, without that thought slipping out of my mind as well. And then I'd have to figure out some ADHD-proof solution--which is a major challenge!

 

I do often write reminders on my hands, but that's no good if I don't think to look at my hand.

 

Nice tidy orderly minds that don't regularly lose track of stuff are entirely outside my experience. The strategies that would work for a mind like that are beyond my reach.

 

Yes I have coping strategies, but implementing each one is mentally challenging and tiring. And there just isn't enough time and energy in a day to strategize all the functionality that comes automatically to someone with normal executive function.

 

Imagine taking every single dayly task you do mostly without thinking--getting dressed in the morning, preparing a meal, clearing dishes from the table, getting your car keys, gathering the things you need for work, checking phone messages--and then imagine that every single one of those tasks takes as much mental effort as organizing a family vacation. Every single tiny thing.

 

It's exhausting, and entirely impossible for some stuff not to slip.

This.  Before cancer, it didn't take much effort to get dressed, complete daily tasks, remember to pick up the dry cleaning, etc.  After cancer?  I have a whole lot more sympathy for people with ADHD/ADD.  Every single task takes mental energy.  Just cooking dinner takes a massive amount of mental energy.  And afterwards I would love to stop having to think and organize and complete tasks but the day isn't over.  I have to keep going.

 

It is sort of like every task takes the mental energy of studying for your PhD.  Your brain is on a constant treadmill.  By the end of the day, there is no energy left.

[goldberry]

I really caution people from seeing it as "just a label." Understanding what the hell was going on not only saved his sense of self value (he thought he was stupid, crazy and lazy despite ample evidence to the contrary), 

 

 

This was 100% the case with DD.

[Innisfree]

well, and what would the difference be between

 

A. not having the capability

 

and

 

B. having the capability and choosing not to apply it

 

in terms of brain chemistry? How would I know it was one or another? I don't feel like I am not trying ( I feel like I work really really hard) but since I don't get as much done as I should, how do I know whether I have a moral failing or a brain difference, or if the moral failing is what is causing the brain difference or visa versa?

 

I think this has been a really interesting thread, with some intriguing things discussed.

 

On the point you made above, OP:

 

On the one hand, one can posit a brain difference causing a behavioral difference. Both are physical, cause and effect. They are measurable and observable.

 

On the other hand, one can posit a character flaw causing a behavioral difference, or in your formulation above, causing a brain difference. The effect is physical, measurable and observable. But what is the cause? What *is* a character flaw? I'm not willing, personally, to attribute an observed physical trait to something as nebulous as a character flaw.

 

Obviously opinions will differ here ;-).

[LucyStoner]

Before ADD medication, my husband was on a first name chat about life basis with the pop-a-lock guys our roadside assistance sends. Imagine how much you need to lock the keys into the car to reach that point.

 

Since ADD meds, this has become a non-issue.

 

Meds aren't for everyone. But they are a tool that too many people throw out without any serious consideration or research.

Edited November 4, 2016 by LucyStoner

[maize]

Real-time example:

 

It's 1:15. I have to leave at 1:20 to pick up my son from school. I'm working hard to keep that in the forefront of my mind so I don't forget in the next 5 minutes. I'm currently lying on my bed trying to get the toddler down for a nap.

 

I've thought of setting up a reminder on my phone so I don't forget to get ds on time, but setting up a reminder is hard. I know it shouldn't be but for me it is. I can't remember how to do it. And if I set my phone down somewhere I won't hear it anyway.

 

Two more minutes to go, hopefully I can get up without waking the little one. I can hold onto a thought for two more minutes, right? I can, as long as I am consciously focusing on that thought and on not getting distracted by something else.

[maize]

I really wish I could be on meds right now but they're not in a good safety category for pregnancy. And I've been pregnant or breastfeeding for almost 14 years straight.

[goldberry]

I've thought of setting up a reminder on my phone so I don't forget to get ds on time, but setting up a reminder is hard. I know it shouldn't be but for me it is. I can't remember how to do it. And if I set my phone down somewhere I won't hear it anyway.

 

 

OMG, I've been trying for two weeks to get DD to set a reminder on her phone for something.  Yesterday she came home from school and sat down to chill and chat.  I said, oh, let's get your phone and set that reminder.  I even handed her the phone.  She got so mad. "You won't even let me have one minute, I just got home from school, I'm tired.."  I said, "What is the big deal about setting a reminder?  I'm not asking you to run a marathon!"

 

I just didn't get why setting a reminder was that big of a deal. Maybe it is.

[8circles]

Real-time example:

 

It's 1:15. I have to leave at 1:20 to pick up my son from school. I'm working hard to keep that in the forefront of my mind so I don't forget in the next 5 minutes. I'm currently lying on my bed trying to get the toddler down for a nap.

 

I've thought of setting up a reminder on my phone so I don't forget to get ds on time, but setting up a reminder is hard. I know it shouldn't be but for me it is. I can't remember how to do it. And if I set my phone down somewhere I won't hear it anyway.

 

Two more minutes to go, hopefully I can get up without waking the little one. I can hold onto a thought for two more minutes, right? I can, as long as I am consciously focusing on that thought and on not getting distracted by something else.

 

This is totally it. I hope you remembered. :D

[8circles]

OMG, I've been trying for two weeks to get DD to set a reminder on her phone for something.  Yesterday she came home from school and sat down to chill and chat.  I said, oh, let's get your phone and set that reminder.  I even handed her the phone.  She got so mad. "You won't even let me have one minute, I just got home from school, I'm tired.."  I said, "What is the big deal about setting a reminder?  I'm not asking you to run a marathon!"

 

I just didn't get why setting a reminder was that big of a deal. Maybe it is.

 

It is.  It's kind-of like an introvert (I'm not saying introversion is ADHD or ADHD is introversion) needing time to decompress.  She just got home.  She's probably been on high-alert mentally all day.  Her brain is tired, her brain needs to put it's feet up for a few before jumping in again.

[marbel]

It is.  It's kind-of like an introvert (I'm not saying introversion is ADHD or ADHD is introversion) needing time to decompress.  She just got home.  She's probably been on high-alert mentally all day.  Her brain is tired, her brain needs to put it's feet up for a few before jumping in again.

 

Yeah, this is how my son is.  Actually, even more, my daughter, who has no ADHD dx but also shows some signs of it.  Or, she could be just overtired from school, work, social life.  :-/     Perhaps my son is less that way because I didn't deny him needed medication.  (Note I said needed.  That is not a criticism of people who make an informed decision not to medicate.)

 

Anyway, I tend to want to do things RIGHT NOW.  Let's just get this done, OK?  Why wait?   Drives my family nuts. They, in turn, drive me nuts at times.   (I am pretty sure my husband would get a dx if he was ever tested.)    But I have learned a lot.

[8circles]

One thing I also wanted to say about this ADHD = lazy nonsense.

 

ADHD is about a brain which functions differently, less dopamine, I think?  Anyway, it means that when people with ADHD are really interested in something, they will not show signs of ADHD.  So it can *seem* like we're lazy because when it's something we really are interested in, we do better.  But it isn't controllable, it's brain chemistry.

 

Not sure if that makes sense, I'm just posting quickly in between other things.

[8circles]

Yeah, this is how my son is.  Actually, even more, my daughter, who has no ADHD dx but also shows some signs of it.  Or, she could be just overtired from school, work, social life.  :-/     Perhaps my son is less that way because I didn't deny him needed medication.  (Note I said needed.  That is not a criticism of people who make an informed decision not to medicate.)

 

Anyway, I tend to want to do things RIGHT NOW.  Let's just get this done, OK?  Why wait?   Drives my family nuts. They, in turn, drive me nuts at times.   (I am pretty sure my husband would get a dx if he was ever tested.)    But I have learned a lot.

 

 

I have tried to do the "get it done right away" coping method but it doesn't work too well when your next thought comes before you've finished task #1.  

[maize]

This is totally it. I hope you remembered. :D

I was only three minutes late :D

[marbel]

One thing I also wanted to say about this ADHD = lazy nonsense.

 

ADHD is about a brain which functions differently, less dopamine, I think?  Anyway, it means that when people with ADHD are really interested in something, they will not show signs of ADHD.  So it can *seem* like we're lazy because when it's something we really are interested in, we do better.  But it isn't controllable, it's brain chemistry.

 

Not sure if that makes sense, I'm just posting quickly in between other things.

 

Oh yeah, I've heard that song before.

 

But that is also one of the gifts, right?  (Didn't someone upthread mention good things about ADHD?)    Deep interest and ability to focus on the topic can be a very useful thing in life.

[maize]

OMG, I've been trying for two weeks to get DD to set a reminder on her phone for something.  Yesterday she came home from school and sat down to chill and chat.  I said, oh, let's get your phone and set that reminder.  I even handed her the phone.  She got so mad. "You won't even let me have one minute, I just got home from school, I'm tired.."  I said, "What is the big deal about setting a reminder?  I'm not asking you to run a marathon!"

 

I just didn't get why setting a reminder was that big of a deal. Maybe it is.

Yep. Setting a reminder is hard. It requires multiple steps, each of which use up mental resources.

 

Truth is, everything is hard. Just the other day we were leaving the house for something and dd13 piped up: "mom, did you know your shirt is on inside out and backwards?" Oh. It was. 

 

Getting dressed is hard. You have to actually notice which way things are facing and get them the right way. 

 

As best I can tell, most brains just pay attention to all kinds of stuff and keep it all ordered without their owners having to specifically gather and direct and keep directing that attention. From an outsider's perspective, that looks like a sort of superpower.

Edited November 4, 2016 by maize

[lauraw4321]

Oh yeah, I've heard that song before.

 

But that is also one of the gifts, right?  (Didn't someone upthread mention good things about ADHD?)    Deep interest and ability to focus on the topic can be a very useful thing in life.

 

Yes, that was me. DH has amazing concentration skills on things he is interested in. He rocks at what he does professionally.

[Bluegoat]

It is.  It's kind-of like an introvert (I'm not saying introversion is ADHD or ADHD is introversion) needing time to decompress.  She just got home.  She's probably been on high-alert mentally all day.  Her brain is tired, her brain needs to put it's feet up for a few before jumping in again.

 

It's interesting, there seem to be some real overlaps wit my experience of being an extreme introvert.  I am mostly internally focused - it takes enegy for me to payattention to things around me usually I have to decide to make the effort.Learning to drive was orrible, I ad to focus on everything and it just overwhelmed my senses.

 

I ften don't cange the tp because I don't really noticr I finished it.  And I will leave tings undone when I do notice because I am spending my focus on some other task at the moment.

[Code Lyoko]

Yep. Setting a reminder is hard. It requires multiple steps, each of which use up mental resources.

 

Truth is, everything is hard. Just the other day we were leaving the house for something and dd13 piped up: "mom, did you know your shirt is on inside out and backwards?" Oh. It was. 

 

Getting dressed is hard. You have to actually notice which way things are facing and get them the right way. 

 

As best I can tell, most brains just pay attention to all kinds of stuff and keep it all ordered without their owners having to specifically gather and direct and keep directing that attention. From an outsider's perspective, that looks like a sort of superpower.

Yes.  I think it is sort of like when you very first learn to drive a car.  There is no muscle memory, or procedural memory, etc.  You have to think about every.single.thing. you are doing from moment to moment.  Where is the brake pedal?  How hard and how quickly do you need to press the accelerator?  I need to turn left, what do I do?  Oh, o.k. where is the turn signal indicator?  Where are the other cars?  How do I press on the accelerator?  Hard or soft?  Fast or slow?  How far do I turn the steering wheel?  A car cut me off.  What do I do?  Where are my mirrors?  What do I check first and where is it located?  Etc.  When you are having to do all of these things and think about every single one of these things every single moment and nothing is automatic it can be confusing, distracting, and exhausting.  That is why it takes time to get good at driving.  

 

Now take that same scenario but because of the way your brain works NONE of that every truly becomes automatic.  You never really develop muscle memory or procedural memory.  How exhausting and frustrating and even possibly dangerous would it be every time you had to drive your car?

[UCF612]

I've been told my youngest has ADHD.  He doesn't seem to fit the mold completely but he definitely has characteristics of it that I'm seeing more clearly now than I did before diagnosis.  He is most definitely NOT lazy!   He works very hard and is very busy all the time.  He always has something he's working on.  But...he's very, for lack of a better term "scatter brained."  Clothes never make the hamper, drawers are never shut, dishes never taken to the kitchen, doors left open behind him.  It is like the details and follow through are lacking but the motivation is very much there.  I'll tell him "pack your bag for the YMCA" and we get to the YMCA and he's got nothing he needs.  Totally opposite his big brother with normal executive function skills and the ability to focus on one task to completion.  But we've found work arounds.  He now has a tag on his Y bag with all the things he needs.  When we are ready to leave I tell him to check his list and pack his bag.  Before we leave the driveway he checks his list again and tells me what he has and doesn't have plus the reason he doesn't have it (like he doesn't always need to take his soccer ball).  It has helped us both tremendously.  He's prepared and I'm not left frustrated that he can't remember simple things like his bathing suit when we're heading to the pool!  But lazy is definitely not the root cause of his forgetfulness.

[eternalsummer]

As someone who is not ADD but has an ADD daughter, this is one of the hardest things for me to understand.  She often says she "forgot" to do something that I just don't understand can be forgotten.  It has always seemed like an excuse to me.

 

For example, you say... 

I don't remember to put a new roll of toilet paper on the toilet paper thinger.

 

 How is that "not remembering"?  You use the toilet paper.  It is empty.  Don't you only "forget" because you don't take the time to do it at that moment, instead thinking to do it at some later date?  Which really is laziness?  I'm not trying to be mean here, I myself can be incredibly lazy at times.  But I don't see how it's not laziness but instead ADD.

 

For example, I texted DD yesterday to pick something up from her school's office.  It was during a free period.  She could have gone and done it at the time I texted her.  She came home without the something and said, "sorry, I forgot."  She has often said I shouldn't get mad at her for just forgetting things sometimes because it is not on purpose.  I agree with that.  But choosing not to do something when you can and then forgetting it later is a different deal.

 

I have worked very hard over the last several years raising this child to be more understanding of her challenges.  But sometimes yes, it does seem like laziness.

 

Well, the toilet paper thing is that I use the last of the roll, say to myself "get more TP," flush, wash hands, leave bathroom, walk down the hall to the closet with the TP, and by the time I get there I've forgotten that I meant to get more TP; I am now thinking about dinner or laundry or email, and I walk right by the closet.

 

I did work out a system to manage this: I started keeping many extra rolls of TP in the actual bathroom, right by the toilet (but high up, as I have a toddler who loves to flush a whole roll).  That works for as long as it takes to use up those rolls, but then it takes me forever to remember to put another set of rolls in the bathroom.

 

Another way to think of it (instead of laziness) is inconsiderateness or lack of caring about the people I'm inconveniencing; I feel like I care about them but I do inconvenience them.  Or you could call it selfishness (that actually may be quite accurate - ADD as an inability to maintain focus outside the self) 

[eternalsummer]

One thing I also wanted to say about this ADHD = lazy nonsense.

 

ADHD is about a brain which functions differently, less dopamine, I think?  Anyway, it means that when people with ADHD are really interested in something, they will not show signs of ADHD.  So it can *seem* like we're lazy because when it's something we really are interested in, we do better.  But it isn't controllable, it's brain chemistry.

 

Not sure if that makes sense, I'm just posting quickly in between other things.

 

 

I get this, I do.  I know that my brain functions differently in some ways, whether I could be labelled ADD/ADHD or not.  

 

I guess what I am saying is - to what degree is that something within my control or without my control?  

 

And maybe this can be discussed in the context of other mental differences; for instance, re: depression - for some people, depression is a *result* of a chemical or hormonal imbalance, right?  I have had that kind of depression (postpartum).  But there is also situational depression, where your brain chemistry may be different, but it is not that you are depressed because the chemistry is different, but the chemistry is different because you are depressed.

[maize]

 

 

Another way to think of it (instead of laziness) is inconsiderateness or lack of caring about the people I'm inconveniencing; I feel like I care about them but I do inconvenience them.  Or you could call it selfishness (that actually may be quite accurate - ADD as an inability to maintain focus outside the self) 

 

Except you would never consciously choose to inconvenience these people you love. 

 

Cut out the "outside of the self" and just stick with the "inability to maintain focus" and yes you have one of the symptoms of ADHD. 

 

Now, your tendency to be self critical--that is not ADHD, but it can certainly be a symptom of depression.

[maize]

I get this, I do.  I know that my brain functions differently in some ways, whether I could be labelled ADD/ADHD or not.  

 

I guess what I am saying is - to what degree is that something within my control or without my control?  

 

And maybe this can be discussed in the context of other mental differences; for instance, re: depression - for some people, depression is a *result* of a chemical or hormonal imbalance, right?  I have had that kind of depression (postpartum).  But there is also situational depression, where your brain chemistry may be different, but it is not that you are depressed because the chemistry is different, but the chemistry is different because you are depressed.

 

Mm. Situational depression--if it is not very temporary and resolves on its own, it turns into plain old physiological depression. So making a distinction between the two at that point becomes irrelevant.

 

I want to address some things you wrote earlier about not being interested in diagnosis or medication for your child. I wonder why you are opposed to diagnosis? Yes, it is a label, but as someone else pointed out--labels are inevitable. Is the label going to be "you have a disability called ADHD that you need to recognize and work around" or is it going to be "you are lazy and oppositional and don't care about getting your work done and meeting expectations"? Of the two, the second is in my opinion by far the more dangerous and harmful. The first gives you insight into yourself and sets you up to seek out solutions and resources to work around your legitimate weaknesses. 

 

With regard to medication, I myself tend to be fairly conservative in choosing to use it simply because every substance we put into our body has multiple effects, some desirable and some undesirable. Balancing that out however is the understanding that there can also be undesirable side effects of not medicating, and that these can outweigh the potential disadvantages and side effects of medicating. My husband, for example, would be completely non functional and likely not even alive without medication for his chronic mental health issues. A child whose anxiety prevents them from engaging in activities they want to engage in is suffering badly from the side effects of not medicating. This past year, my son was unable to move up to the team level in gymnastics along with his classmates because, while he had the physical skills necessary he did not have the focus ability needed for the more intense practices and competition. His disability is holding him back significantly in areas that are important to him, which means it is time to seriously consider medication.

Edited November 4, 2016 by maize

[eternalsummer]

Thanks for explaining. If it is not too personal a question: why would somebody who experiences this frustration every day NOT want pharmacological help?

 

 

This one I can answer (for me): there is a level at which a difference in functioning is not worth taking a drug to change your personality/abilities, esp. when that drug also has some negative side effects.

 

So for example, say you have some trouble falling asleep at night.  For *me*, (and I am just saying for me), I would have to have really significant health problems to be willing to take sleeping pills.  They're addictive, they change the way you think (and how we think is pretty closely associated with our identity, imo), and they have a host of potential side effects.  The same is true of depression - if I were severely depressed for some time, I would consider uppers.  First, though, I'd want to do everything else possible, because what I want more than anything, barring really severe problems in daily functioning, is to be what I perceive as myself, sans drugs.

 

I may be somewhat out of the ordinary in this regard: I also wear glasses, not contacts.  The reason for no contacts is that I like to be able to take off my glasses and see the world through my own real eyes without a filter.  Now if I were blind and they could give me contacts that made me see, of course I'd take them. 

 

As for ADD drugs themselves - you could be a lot more efficient as a normal-brained person if you were a normal=brained person who took speed.  You'd get more done and lots of things would be easier.  Unfortunately it also is addictive (to a degree) and has some negative side effects, so it makes more sense to adapt as well as you can without it.

[eternalsummer]

Mm. Situational depression--if it is not very temporary and resolves on its own, it turns into plain old physiological depression. So making a distinction between the two at that point becomes irrelevant.

 

I want to address some things you wrote earlier about not being interested in diagnosis or medication for your child. I wonder why you are opposed to diagnosis? Yes, it is a label, but as someone else pointed out--labels are inevitable. Is the label going to be "you have a disability called ADHD that you need to recognize and work around" or is it going to be "you are lazy and oppositional and don't care about getting your work done and meeting expectations"? Of the two, the second is in my opinion by far the more dangerous and harmful. The first gives you insight into yourself and sets you up to seek out solutions and resources to work around your legitimate weaknesses. 

 

With regard to medication, I myself tend to be fairly conservative in choosing to use it simply because every substance we put into our body has multiple effects, some desirable and some undesirable. Balancing that out however is the understanding that there can also be undesirable side effects of not medicating, and that these can outweigh the potential disadvantages and side effects of medicating. My husband, for example, would be completely non functional and likely not even alive without medication for his chronic mental health issues. A child whose anxiety prevents them from engaging in activities they want to engage in is suffering badly from the side effects of not medicating. This past year, my son was unable to move up to the team level in gymnastics along with his classmates because, while he had the physical skills necessary he did not have the focus ability needed for the more intense practices and competition. His disability is holding him back significantly in areas that are important to him, which means it is time to seriously consider medication.

 

 

 

I agree that at some point drugs are useful and desirable (I addressed most of that in the post just before this one, we were cross-posting).  

 

 

As far as a label goes, I think it is stigmatizing.  I agree that being labelled lazy is also stigmatizing, but the former (labelling a child ADHD) is an acceptance of the legitimacy of the system that wants to assign that label.

 

What I mean is, in this society, behavior which for a significant percentage of *especially* young boys is normal has been stigmatized and labelled a mental illness, in need of drugging/correction.  Boys who are young for their grade are more likely to be labelled and drugged than ones who are old for their grade.  Boys are *much* more likely to be labelled than girls, because this society prefers, right now, inherently female behavior (passivity, largely) in its children, esp. in group situations.  

 

If I say, well, son, you have ADHD (and especially if I give him drugs to change his behavior and personality), I am saying that society is correct in this preference.

 

But I don't think society is correct.

 

 

Does that make sense?  I haven't really thought about it concretely before.

[eternalsummer]

Except you would never consciously choose to inconvenience these people you love. 

 

Cut out the "outside of the self" and just stick with the "inability to maintain focus" and yes you have one of the symptoms of ADHD. 

 

Now, your tendency to be self critical--that is not ADHD, but it can certainly be a symptom of depression.

 

 

Well again, the fact that the people I love are inconvenienced and I have inconvenienced them when I could *not* inconvenience them means either that:

 

A. I can't *not* inconvenience them (that is to say, ADHD is real and in control)

B.  I don't care enough about others to not inconvenience them 

C. I am too lazy to change my behavior (this is slightly different than B., which is more like selfishness)

 

 

All of those things look the same from the outside; the behavior is the same.  I am just not sure whether it matters what the cause of the behavior is, or if there is a possibility of A.

[maize]

I agree that at some point drugs are useful and desirable (I addressed most of that in the post just before this one, we were cross-posting).  

 

 

As far as a label goes, I think it is stigmatizing.  I agree that being labelled lazy is also stigmatizing, but the former (labelling a child ADHD) is an acceptance of the legitimacy of the system that wants to assign that label.

 

What I mean is, in this society, behavior which for a significant percentage of *especially* young boys is normal has been stigmatized and labelled a mental illness, in need of drugging/correction.  Boys who are young for their grade are more likely to be labelled and drugged than ones who are old for their grade.  Boys are *much* more likely to be labelled than girls, because this society prefers, right now, inherently female behavior (passivity, largely) in its children, esp. in group situations.  

 

If I say, well, son, you have ADHD (and especially if I give him drugs to change his behavior and personality), I am saying that society is correct in this preference.

 

But I don't think society is correct.

 

 

Does that make sense?  I haven't really thought about it concretely before.

 

And yet you are considering the possibility that you also have ADHD. There appears to be a significant genetic component to ADHD--the numbers I have seen indicate that if one parent has the disorder, each child has approximately a 50% chance of also having it. Which would indicate that there is definitely more going on than just young boys being labeled for boyish behavior (though I do believe that happens to some extent in our school system.)

 

I can tell you that my ADHD is very, very real. And that NOT receiving a label did not help me at all. I beat myself up over my inability to meet both my own and others' expectations, regularly committed to becoming better organized and staying on top of stuff--and failed over and over and over and over again. 

 

Finally receiving an diagnosis as an adult has been oh so very helpful. Now I can learn about why my brain is the way it is and what kinds of supports and adjustments may be helpful, as well as the option of relieving some symptoms with medication.

 

Not having a diagnostic label does not make a person not have the disorder. 

[LucyStoner]

Or one can let go of the bias and just see ADHD as any other thing that a person might have to deal with. There's no more reason for my husband to feel ashamed that he has ADHD than for my dad to be ashamed he has MS.

 

This issue is close to my heart because my ILs bias was that ADHD and pretty much anything similar was all hogwash and babble. These are educated medical professionals (a medical doctor and a registered nurse) and they eschewed anything that might have helped their child in favor of their own ideological beliefs. He was 32 when he was dx and had spent a decade of adulthood wondering WTF was wrong with him, and a childhood before that thinking he was just defective.

 

What some don't see is that denigrating legit dx as "labels" and not being open minded to any professional help can be as or even more damaging to their kids as "labeling them".

Edited November 4, 2016 by LucyStoner

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

This one I can answer (for me): there is a level at which a difference in functioning is not worth taking a drug to change your personality/abilities, esp. when that drug also has some negative side effects.

 

So for example, say you have some trouble falling asleep at night.  For *me*, (and I am just saying for me), I would have to have really significant health problems to be willing to take sleeping pills.  They're addictive, they change the way you think (and how we think is pretty closely associated with our identity, imo), and they have a host of potential side effects.  The same is true of depression - if I were severely depressed for some time, I would consider uppers.  First, though, I'd want to do everything else possible, because what I want more than anything, barring really severe problems in daily functioning, is to be what I perceive as myself, sans drugs.

 

I may be somewhat out of the ordinary in this regard: I also wear glasses, not contacts.  The reason for no contacts is that I like to be able to take off my glasses and see the world through my own real eyes without a filter.  Now if I were blind and they could give me contacts that made me see, of course I'd take them. 

 

As for ADD drugs themselves - you could be a lot more efficient as a normal-brained person if you were a normal=brained person who took speed.  You'd get more done and lots of things would be easier.  Unfortunately it also is addictive (to a degree) and has some negative side effects, so it makes more sense to adapt as well as you can without it.

 

This is inaccurate. You would be high, that does not equal more efficient.

[maize]

Well again, the fact that the people I love are inconvenienced and I have inconvenienced them when I could *not* inconvenience them means either that:

 

A. I can't *not* inconvenience them (that is to say, ADHD is real and in control)

B.  I don't care enough about others to not inconvenience them 

C. I am too lazy to change my behavior (this is slightly different than B., which is more like selfishness)

 

 

All of those things look the same from the outside; the behavior is the same.  I am just not sure whether it matters what the cause of the behavior is, or if there is a possibility of A.

 

If it is A, then both you and they can be more patient and understanding, AND you can start to figure out specific supports and strategies to keep from failing and inconveniencing people who you don't want to fail and inconvenience.

[maize]

Or one can let go of the bias and just see ADHD as any other thing that a person might have to deal with. There's no more reason for my husband to feel ashamed that he has ADHD than for my dad to be ashamed he has MS.

 

This issue is close to my heart because my ILs bias was that ADHD and pretty much anything similar was all hogwash and babble. These are educated medical professionals (a medical doctor and a registered nurse) /'d they eschewed anything that might have helped their child in favor of their own ideological beliefs. He was 32 when he was dx and had spent a decade of adulthood wondering WTF was wrong with him, and a childhood before that thinking he was just defective.

 

What some don't see is that denigrating legit dx as "labels" and not being open minded to any professional help can be as or even more damaging to their kids as "labeling them".

 

YES!!!

 

My parents were also leery of labels. That attitude was not helpful and they have since revised their opinions on the matter.

Edited November 4, 2016 by maize

[eternalsummer]

This is inaccurate. You would be high, that does not equal more efficient.

 

 

There is a reason speed is banned for atheletes (and steroids).  There is also a reason there is a black market for Adderall on college campuses (I had a friend in high school who made a fortune in college selling her ADD meds).  It does indeed increase productivity.

[eternalsummer]

And yet you are considering the possibility that you also have ADHD. There appears to be a significant genetic component to ADHD--the numbers I have seen indicate that if one parent has the disorder, each child has approximately a 50% chance of also having it. Which would indicate that there is definitely more going on than just young boys being labeled for boyish behavior (though I do believe that happens to some extent in our school system.)

 

I can tell you that my ADHD is very, very real. And that NOT receiving a label did not help me at all. I beat myself up over my inability to meet both my own and others' expectations, regularly committed to becoming better organized and staying on top of stuff--and failed over and over and over and over again. 

 

Finally receiving an diagnosis as an adult has been oh so very helpful. Now I can learn about why my brain is the way it is and what kinds of supports and adjustments may be helpful, as well as the option of relieving some symptoms with medication.

 

Not having a diagnostic label does not make a person not have the disorder. 

 

 

Well, I am considering it, but I am also considering the possibility that I just have a personality flaw (i.e. I am lazy); with regard to my son, there is obviously something different about him, but calling it a disorder that needs medication seems like agreeing with our society's preference for a certain kind of behavior or personality.

[LucyStoner]

another factor for us (having at least one child where ADHD seems to be comorbid with previously dx ASD) is that going without help and treatment didn't just cost my husband the pain and shame and frustration. It also led to not having the tools in place to suceed in college. He was a National Merit Scholar with an enormous intellectual potential but in college he'd miss tests because he forgot which room they were in or hyper focus on one part of the class and not do enough of the assigned work. He is very modest but this is a man few people meet without commenting on how bright and curious and crazy knowledgeable he is. At times he flunked out, dropped out or switched courses of study so often he never finished one of them. Had he known what was happening he could have been far better organized and prepared to do well. He's just now finishing a professional course of study and starting a job which is not far below what he is able to accomplish when he's not thinking he's a lazy lunatic. He's 37. The cost of underemployment for 10+ years is...not insubstantial. That's why we decided that if we do persue medication for our son, it will be before he's racking up a transcript that follows him. My husband is fortunate he didn't have to take out loans for all those crappy college years.

Edited November 4, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Code Lyoko]

YES!!!

 

My parents were also leery of labels. That attitude was not helpful and they have since revised their opinions on the matter.

Yep.

 

My husband and my mother (reading specialist teacher in the public school system for many years) absolutely pushed for me to NOT get a diagnosis for my daughter.  I knew she was struggling in school. I knew that my having to reteach everything after school was not normal.  I knew her self esteem was tanking.  But they were so afraid of "labels" and felt strongly that the school was not recognizing that every child learns at their own pace (I agree with this, by the way) that they kept pushing me not to seek answers, just "give her more time".  

 

I did our child a terrible disservice by not seeking answers and being afraid of "labels".   Finding answers for what was wrong was what we both needed.  Finally getting an evaluation and finding out WHY she struggled was a HUGE relief for all of us, especially my daughter.  She was relieved to hear she is dyslexic.  It gave her answers that made sense and it gave me many of the answers I needed to get her the help she needed.  

 

DD was in school from 4k through 5th grade.  She had loving teachers (mostly) and a really great school...for NT kids.  I loved that school and got close with many of DD's teachers.  And yet, as loving and supportive as they were, they could not teach her to read.  And because I didn't get her evaluated until mid-5th grade the labels she got were not useful.  She was labeling herself as "stupid" and "incapable" and "useless".  Her teachers were labeling her as "slow" and "unfocused" and "needing to try harder" even though she was working harder than any of her classmates.  How are those labels better than being labeled as dyslexic?

 

I finally put my foot down, got an evaluation, got answers, got that "label" and it was awesome.  It gave us a more productive path to follow.  DD went from struggling horrifically to read even 1st grade level books at the end of 5th grade to reading young adult novels 2 years later.  And that would not have happened without evaluations.  The label was not my goal.  Answers were.  

[regentrude]

Well, I am considering it, but I am also considering the possibility that I just have a personality flaw (i.e. I am lazy); with regard to my son, there is obviously something different about him, but calling it a disorder that needs medication seems like agreeing with our society's preference for a certain kind of behavior or personality.

 

I am not personally affected by ADHD, but when I read what other posters here shared, this is definitely real and affects their everyday function - completely irrespective of what "society" says. Seriously, if a parent has trouble getting her brain to remember for five minutes that she needs to get her child from school, that is not "society's preference", it is an impairment in functioning that deviates so far from the neurotypical as to cause problems for this person herself.

 

I agree that school expectations are often not developmentally appropriate and that some children are misdiagnosed when they simply display age typical behavior, but this does not mean that some kids do not have ADHD. I work with young adults. There is nothing developmentally inappropriate in the executive functioning that is expected from a 20 y/o college student, yet some students simply cannot function at that level because of the way their brains work. 

[eternalsummer]

I am not leery of all labels; ADHD is a particular one.  Dyslexia is not a matter of personality or behavior, and no one is drugging 4 year old dyslexics to make them learn to read.  People *do* drug 4 year old boys to make them sit still and behave.

[eternalsummer]

I am not personally affected by ADHD, but when I read what other posters here shared, this is definitely real and affects their everyday function - completely irrespective of what "society" says. Seriously, if a parent has trouble getting her brain to remember for five minutes that she needs to get her child from school, that is not "society's preference", it is an impairment in functioning that deviates so far from the neurotypical as to cause problems for this person herself.

 

I agree that school expectations are often not developmentally appropriate and that some children are misdiagnosed when they simply display age typical behavior, but this does not mean that some kids do not have ADHD. I work with young adults. There is nothing developmentally inappropriate in the executive functioning that is expected from a 20 y/o college student, yet some students simply cannot function at that level because of the way their brains work. 

 

 

I agree, there are definitely levels of abnormality that interfere with functioning to a degree that would make drugs a lot more palatable.

 

Right now neither I nor my son (nor a large percentage of children who are drugged) meet those criteria, imo.

 

 

I think a lot of it is really that behavior and thinking are so associated with identity, and I am resistant to changing identity.  

 

ETA: on the other hand, I'd really like to be able to not be lazy/inconsiderate on my own (without drugs), and would I consider that changing my identity?

Edited November 4, 2016 by ananemone

[Code Lyoko]

Well, I am considering it, but I am also considering the possibility that I just have a personality flaw (i.e. I am lazy); with regard to my son, there is obviously something different about him, but calling it a disorder that needs medication seems like agreeing with our society's preference for a certain kind of behavior or personality.

Only if you let it.  

 

If you get an evaluation through someone highly trained, that doesn't just toss out labels and meds on a whim (and yes I acknowledge there are those out there) then you aren't kowtowing to society, you are getting the answers you need to help your child.  If you feel there is something causing him significant struggles, evaluations can give you solid answers on how to help.  Maybe meds is part of the answer (usually meds coupled with behavior/EF therapies is more successful).  Maybe not.  What matters is actually knowing what is happening so you can address the issues and tap into the strengths you may not even be aware that he has.  And you, too, for that matter.

 

And I don't call DD's dyslexia a disorder.  It is a difference in processing.  I see ADHD as the same thing.  A difference in processing.  Sometimes that difference is a strength and for some things it isn't.  Knowing how to help the weak areas and tap into the strengths (that may be undermined by the weak areas without some systematic help) can be the difference between surviving and thriving.

[regentrude]

And I don't call DD's dyslexia a disorder.  It is a difference in processing.  I see ADHD as the same thing.  A difference in processing.  Sometimes that difference is a strength and for some things it isn't.  Knowing how to help the weak areas and tap into the strengths (that may be undermined by the weak areas without some systematic help) can be the difference between surviving and thriving.

 

I hear strengths mentioned repeatedly: what exactly do you consider the strengths of having ADHD?

I don't buy into "creativity" because there are plenty of very creative people without ADHD, so I do not consider them linked.

[eternalsummer]

I'm not all that creative.  I am able to run through a list of possibilities for problem-solving rather quickly, and pretty exhaustively.  I don't know if it is linked to ADD at all.

 

DH, who is definitely not ADHD, has the opposite skill: he can hold a thought in his head and pursue it for a long time.  What this means in practice is that he can look many moves ahead in chess (because he can hold the board and possibilities in his head); I cannot play chess at all.  Einstein said something once about how his intelligence was just a matter of being able to pursue a problem longer than other people - to stay with the thought longer.