ADD/ADHD = lazy?

[8circles]

No, I am wary of the idea that much of ADHD is a misdiagnosis - that is to say, is it just another label for what we used to call and still should call laziness?

 

I guess what I am saying is that I am not sure if I trust the whole paradigm - partly because it has been so misused and incorrect, and partly because it seems pretty biased on the whole against male behavior.

 

It would be so much easier if we could just jump forward 100 years and look back and see whether people 100 years from now think we are as crazy for drugging ADHD kids, or even thinking ADHD is a thing, as we think people 100 years ago were for electroshock or bloodletting or something.

 

(I don't mean to directly imply that ADHD doesn't exist, yada yada, please don't take offense.  I am just speaking honestly - psychological diagnoses are kind of nebulous, historically)

 

If the first bolded is true, then you are saying ADHD doesn't exist and that is offensive, especially given all the first-person experiences people are sharing with you.  (btw, I'm pretty sure none of the people posting their personal experiences here are juvenile males who have been misdiagnosed and "drugged", but this is the internet, so who knows?)

Edited November 5, 2016 by 8circles

[eternalsummer]

I am saying maybe it doesn't, or maybe it doesn't for as many people as have been diagnosed with it, or maybe it does for many more people than have been diagnosed (people who right now we just call lazy).

 

Can we not talk openly about things like this?  I am happy to scurry off to 4chan for freedom to speak clearly but they have a vastly different set of experiences and that set is not as close to mine as the set here, I think.

[maize]

 

I am starting to think you are all very weird.

Oh, I'm definitely weird!

 

:D

 

I'm curious to know if you have tried contacts?

 

For me, I don't like the feel of glasses on my face, and I don't like having to look through a lens a centimeter or so in front of my eye. I find it awkward and a bit uncomfortable.

 

With contacts though, there's no sense of anything between me and the world. I am just seeing with my eyes--really seeing as I never can without them.

 

Interesting side trail!

[maize]

I am saying maybe it doesn't, or maybe it doesn't for as many people as have been diagnosed with it, or maybe it does for many more people than have been diagnosed (people who right now we just call lazy).

 

Can we not talk openly about things like this? I am happy to scurry off to 4chan for freedom to speak clearly but they have a vastly different set of experiences and that set is not as close to mine as the set here, I think.

I personally have found this discussion very interesting, please don't scurry off.

 

But...if you judge me as lazy because of my executive function difficulties, I reserve the right to judge you as profoundly mistaken :)

[eternalsummer]

I had contacts; they were great for seeing but made me insane because I could never take them off.  I knew there was a layer of plastic between my eyes and the world.  I couldn't feel it like I could with glasses, but I knew it was there.

 

The laser surgery I might consider if there were absolutely no risk, but alas I am not willing to risk it.  Maybe if I were blinder (and glasses weren't so cheap)

[8circles]

I am saying maybe it doesn't, or maybe it doesn't for as many people as have been diagnosed with it, or maybe it does for many more people than have been diagnosed (people who right now we just call lazy).

 

Can we not talk openly about things like this?  I am happy to scurry off to 4chan for freedom to speak clearly but they have a vastly different set of experiences and that set is not as close to mine as the set here, I think.

 

Can we not talk openly about this? Well, I can only speak for myself.  We can talk very openly about this, but if you're going to suggest that maybe ADHD doesn't really exist and people who have received that dx are really just lazy, selfish jerks, then I'm going to talk very openly and tell you that I think that's offensive and that probably makes you a jerk.  Or is that *too* open for you?

 

You are welcome to go to 4chan if you think they'd be more likely to happily engage in such an offensive conversation. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by 8circles

[Lady Florida.]

OP much of what you've said here is offensive and hurtful to people who have ADHD and to those of us who love them.

 

There's no point in me giving you information. You've been give plenty. You don't want it.

[eternalsummer]

I personally have found this discussion very interesting, please don't scurry off.

 

But...if you judge me as lazy because of my executive function difficulties, I reserve the right to judge you as profoundly mistaken :)

 

deal :)  I don't mind being judged.

 

Interestingly, I don't see you as lazy because I figure you know your own brain and how it works.  It is somewhat harder to change the way one thinks about oneself than the way one thinks about others.

[eternalsummer]

Can we not talk openly about this? Well, I can only speak for myself.  We can talk very openly about this, but if you're going to suggest that maybe ADHD doesn't really exist and people who have received that dx are really just lazy, selfish jerks, then I'm going to talk very openly and tell you that I think that's offensive and that probably makes you a jerk.  Or is that *too* open for you?

 

You are welcome to go to 4chan if you think they'd be more likely to happily engage in such an offensive conversation. 

 

No, that is fine.  Why wouldn't it be?  Honesty is good :)

[Charlie]

For people who are those things and don't have ADHD (surely they exist), does it really matter?

 

It matters to me because one behavior reflects the intention of the individual, the other might be an obstacle to it. For the inconsiderate person, one behavior may function to express indifference or apathy regarding something that might be important to someone else. The same behavior may defy the intention of the individual with ADD/ ADHD. They may not actually be indifferent, they simply forgot something that was important to another person. They may not be apathetic, they are otherwise focused on something else and not able to recognize surrounding cues that aren't of immediate interest to them. It makes a difference in how I respond, and my expectations in the future.

 

Whether or not you decide to undergo a formal assessment or not, whether or not you decide to try behavior modification for your own goals is up to you, and best of luck whatever you decide. Hearing someone continually support the implication that ADD/ADHD is a matter of not having strong enough will power is problematic in the same way hearing someone continually support the implication that autism is a product of an unloving mother. Misinformation gets people hurt.

[eternalsummer]

OP much of what you've said here is offensive and hurtful to people who have ADHD and to those of us who love them.

 

There's no point in me giving you information. You've been give plenty. You don't want it.

 

I'm sorry you are hurt; open conversation about things that are not often discussed openly can be hurtful.  

 

Lots of the discussion in this thread has been really helpful; the information, especially about how people who have similar difficulties have reconciled them with themselves and/or modified behavior is great.  But I didn't mean to post a thread saying, please educate me about a condition you have - I meant to post a thread saying, I wonder to what extent this particular behavior is attributable to this particular label.

 

I guess it is a matter of perspective?

[eternalsummer]

And ack, I just realized I left the diapers in the washer this morning!

 

I get that ADHD behavior is not just a matter of willpower; I guess what I am saying is that if there is a spectrum (that is, more and less effective willpower) and the behavior looks the same on the outside, isn't it difficult for society to judge which kinds of laziness are laziness and which are ADHD (and therefore something else entirely - not laziness)?

 

I can see that willpower does come into play with the establishment of supports/procedures that alleviate the negative behavior - like my putting 12 rolls of TP in the bathroom so I remember to refill the roll.  I'll have to look into more things like that (or if anyone has really good specific ones that they already do I'd love to hear about them), because if I could start doing things like filing the taxes on time and sending permission slips back to school, that would be awesome.

[Innisfree]

What is the benefit in assigning laziness as a cause for difficulties?

 

What *good* does that do?

[Charlie]

And ack, I just realized I left the diapers in the washer this morning!

 

I get that ADHD behavior is not just a matter of willpower; I guess what I am saying is that if there is a spectrum (that is, more and less effective willpower) and the behavior looks the same on the outside, isn't it difficult for society to judge which kinds of laziness are laziness and which are ADHD (and therefore something else entirely - not laziness)?

 

Maybe, especially to those who don't recognize the clues that explain ADD/ADHD behavior. Yes it's a spectrum, all behavior can be plotted on a spectrum. It's neither good nor bad, but it can be inconvenient to varying degrees. If yours is mildly inconvenient, you might find behavior modification a perfect intervention. It's cheap, you don't have to find a professional, you can pick and choose what sounds good without having to explain yourself to anyone. But behavior modification doesn't always work, and there's nothing wrong with recognizing and acting on that.

 

I can see that willpower does come into play with the establishment of supports/procedures that alleviate the negative behavior - like my putting 12 rolls of TP in the bathroom so I remember to refill the roll.  I'll have to look into more things like that (or if anyone has really good specific ones that they already do I'd love to hear about them), because if I could start doing things like filing the taxes on time and sending permission slips back to school, that would be awesome.

 

In my opinion, a big stumbling block to understanding these kinds of disabilities is that each example seems so inconsequential. Each example has a simple solution, and it seems silly to do much more. It's only worth addressing if these things pile up in such a way that interfere with your well-being, as defined by you (assuming your SO isn't prodding you to get help and you don't want to take their opinions into consideration).

 

Btw, I leave the light on in my laundry room so I remember to put the wash in the dryer. I hate to waste electricity, but I figure wasting a load of water is worse. Also, I find I only have to do that on days when I'm tired. Insufficient sleep affects my executive functioning more than it used to, and I am learning to recognize signs of tiredness.

[lanalouwho]

I have really found this entire thread enlightening. I have always thought that I was disorganized, scatterbrained, and just not good enough to complete basic tasks. I had never even considered ADHD, but a lot of what is being described really fits me to a tee.

I have developed some coping mechanisms over the years, such as setting reminders on my phone so I don't forget to eat (or feed my children). I keep a box of toilet paper right next to the toilet so its always within reach. But sometimes the most basic tasks seem impossible.

So I want to thank everyone for sharing their experience, and I will be doing some further research and investigation.

[maize]

And ack, I just realized I left the diapers in the washer this morning!

 

I get that ADHD behavior is not just a matter of willpower; I guess what I am saying is that if there is a spectrum (that is, more and less effective willpower) and the behavior looks the same on the outside, isn't it difficult for society to judge which kinds of laziness are laziness and which are ADHD (and therefore something else entirely - not laziness)?

 

I can see that willpower does come into play with the establishment of supports/procedures that alleviate the negative behavior - like my putting 12 rolls of TP in the bathroom so I remember to refill the roll.  I'll have to look into more things like that (or if anyone has really good specific ones that they already do I'd love to hear about them), because if I could start doing things like filing the taxes on time and sending permission slips back to school, that would be awesome.

 

I had a thought: 

 

Whether or not your or your child have ADHD, it does sound like you both have some executive function difficulties. Those are not unique to ADHD, and learning about and working to address executive function would be valuable to anyone for whom it is a struggle.

 

You might start familiarizing yourself with executive function skill deficits and ways to address them by doing some reading here:

 

https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/executive-functioning-issues/understanding-executive-functioning-issues

[ktgrok]

We avoided medication for a long time.   Finally a doctor convinced us that for our kid, medication was the only way he would succeed with high school work (and beyond).  He was 16 when we started.  I'm so glad we did.  He's so glad we did.  It was a huge revelation to him that his thinking didn't have to be "fuzzy" all the time.    When I read stuff like "god forbid" about ADHD medication (not sure who said it here, but it wasn't maize) I feel a little sorry for the kid, because some people just need it. 

 

Yes! My son is very bright (2E) so he was able to make up for the ADHD until high school. Then his grades were slipping and was upset that his graded didn't reflect his intelligence. We started meds, and it is a huge difference. Huge. He's getting stuff done when he needs to, or at least when he wants to. And he is getting A's in his college classes (dual enrolled) and honestly, he's NICER. I think being constantly scattered was making him meaner, because he was distressed but not realizing it. He's way more pleasant now. 

 

He takes a low dose of Vyvanse. And it hasn't made him lose weight, or have insomnia. In fact, he eats better because he remembers he is hungry, instead of getting hungry then getting distracted before he could get up to get a snack. 

 

As someone that is smart (genius IQ) and cares very much about pleasing people, it was VERY hard to go through school and life being so scattered, myself. I was that kid in class that didn't have a piece of paper, or a pen, or my textbook. The one that did the 2 hour long assignment at home and then forgot to turn it in. My purse is a disaster. I've lost my purse and wallet more times than I could remember. I lose my phone daily. I don't close cabinets. I forget appointments. Etc etc. 

 

Honestly, I've learned that this is who I am. We all have things we are good at and things we are not good at. Executive function skills I am nt good at. But I'm well spoken, I am a published author, I am a loyal friend, I care about people and important ideas and such. But stuff? I am awful at daily living stuff. And that's okay. I refuse to feel badly about it anymore. Being good at keeping house or keeping track of your phone doesn't make a person morally superior to one that loses that stuff. 

[LucyStoner]

I'm sorry you are hurt; open conversation about things that are not often discussed openly can be hurtful.

 

 

Where do you get the idea that these ideas are not often discussed? Frankly, the stereotype that ADHD is faked, an excuse for laziness, a label pressed on young boys due to unrealistic school expectations by parents and teachers who want to drug away their personalities and/or a clever rouse to legally score Adderall is discussed ad nauseam in mainstream culture. Edited November 5, 2016 by LucyStoner

[ktgrok]

 

 

 

Did you never think of your kid as lazy or defiant or whatever the moral equivalent would be for his personality?  How did you arrive at "brain difference caused by chemistry" instead of "brain chemistry difference as a result of inferior choices/personality?"

 

Well, for myself I know that I am not a bad person. I want to have a clean house. I want to please others. I obviously don't want to lose my purse and have to drive 30 minutes back to where I last had it. Etc etc. I don't make inferior choices in other areas. And I'm not dumb. So this obvious answer is this just isn't a skill I'm good at (executive function). It's who I am. I'm short, I have freckles, I'm a good writer, a good cook, and i have horrible executive function skills. 

[Arcadia]

OP,

 

You might want to borrow any of the Smart but Scattered books from the library. Whether it is executive function skills or ADHD, the books have good tips.

http://www.smartbutscatteredkids.com/Books/listings

 

What is the benefit in assigning laziness as a cause for difficulties?

Maybe some people thinks ADHD is insurmountable compared to laziness.

 

For example, I am relaxing instead of cleaning up the kitchen. Someone with executive function issues would likely forget that the kitchen cleanup chore is pending/incomplete.

 

A friend said it took her some time to accept even though it was obvious by the time her public school child was eight because of worrying about the future. Her child was "restless" everywhere and feeling bad about not completely anything.

[ktgrok]

 

Here's an example. DH has to sign a time card every day he works.  Has to be done. The fact that has to be done, and that hasn't changed in 5 years, is not sufficient for him to remember to do it on time. He's gotten dinged for it.  He's had to take extra training because of it.  He's been written up for it.

 

 

 

OMG, this is so me! Forever and ever. Thankfully my boss gave me some accommodation, and I could have another employee verify I'd been there at a certain time, because she knew I really was trying. but ugh. It was so bad, that even after not working in a job environment for 6 years now, I STILL have nightmares about forgetting to clock in at work. 

[ktgrok]

 

 How is that "not remembering"?  You use the toilet paper.  It is empty.  Don't you only "forget" because you don't take the time to do it at that moment, instead thinking to do it at some later date?  Which really is laziness?  I'm not trying to be mean here, I myself can be incredibly lazy at times.  But I don't see how it's not laziness but instead ADD.

 

For me, I'd take the old roll off, grab the new roll, then instead of putting it on I'd tear a piece off to use, then set it down as I wiped, then forget to pick it back up.

 

For example, I texted DD yesterday to pick something up from her school's office.  It was during a free period.  She could have gone and done it at the time I texted her.  She came home without the something and said, "sorry, I forgot." 

 

Maybe she did mean to do it right then. She looked at the text, said "oh, better go to that" then as she was heading for the office someone asked her a question, she got sidetracked, and totally forgot. Happens to me ALL the time. Heck, my son has gone into he bathroom to brush his teeth, then forgotten why he went in there. 

 

I have worked very hard over the last several years raising this child to be more understanding of her challenges.  But sometimes yes, it does seem like laziness.

 

[UCF612]

I didn't know it but apparently a few weeks before my son was diagnosed with ADHD my sister had been diagnosed as well.  She's in her late 30s.  I've always thought she just had a unique personality with quirks.  For example if we wanted to order a pizza online it would take her forever to find her laptop, then once she did we all had to be totally silent and still so she could place the order.  No talking or movement because she couldn't concentrate otherwise.   Same for driving.  We had to be quiet if she came to a stop sign or a strange point in traffic (not in an I'm lost so let me turn the radio off and focus because this is an extreme problem way).  Things like making a turn required NOTHING distract her.  She got on medication (after apparently meeting every single criteria for a diagnosis) and said that for the first time ever she came to a stop sign, completed the stop normally and didn't require her kids to stop talking.  It was a game changer for her.  She can actually complete projects now without wandering off into other things.  I definitely think I have a tad bit of that myself but nowhere near the extreme of my son or my sister.  Her IQ is extremely high and she did really well in school despite ADD.  

 

I have 2 boys, 2 years apart in age.  The night and day difference in their abilities to do simple things are amazing.  Both are very smart, tested gifted or near gifted IQs.  My oldest can fully complete tasks one at a time.  He rarely needs reminding about regular things.  My youngest can't.  He truly can't.  He WANTS to.  He feels terrible when he forgets for the millionth time to carry his plate to the kitchen.  He can be standing next to the table, reminded to take the plate and still manage to not get it done because he's drawn into something else.  But you asked about strengths...not sure what's ADHD and what's just him but he's hilarious, empathetic beyond belief, he's my worker bee always willing to help, he is constantly desiring to learn about life around him, he wants to be an active participant in everything. My oldest just doesn't get as invested in or excited about life as my youngest.  I think part of that is the ADHD.  If anything I'd consider my older son "lazier" than my younger ADHD son.  

[ktgrok]

If you replace "I forgot x" with "my brain didn't notice or hold onto x long enough for me to do it" you'd maybe have a more accurate idea of what happens in an ADHD brain. I can use up the last of the toilet paper roll without really noting that fact, or maybe noting it but so fleetingly that the next instant it is gone from my mind. You could tell me on the phone to pick something up from the office and I can agree, but by the time I hang up the thought of the thing needing to be picked up has vanished without a trace.

 

Your brain doesn't do this. It's a normally functioning brain that notices and hangs onto stuff long enough for you to follow through.

 

Mine doesn't reliably do that. The forgetting--the thought slipping away--is not a choice.

 

YES!  It's why I can walk into the grocery store to get milk, and leave with half a dozen things and no milk. 

[lauraw4321]

I hear strengths mentioned repeatedly: what exactly do you consider the strengths of having ADHD?

I don't buy into "creativity" because there are plenty of very creative people without ADHD, so I do not consider them linked.

 

@Regentrude - do you have me blocked?  I feel like I've answered this, but I'll try with a specific example. 

 

My DH works on rockets. Big ones that will one day go to the moon and Mars. He was frustrated with the commercially available software that was used to optimize rockets. It made bad assumptions and it had variables that you couldn't change. So he decided to make his own software program. Basically you should say, ok, I want to build a rocket that would go this far, this fast, this much thrust, weighs no more than this and costs no more than this. And it would spit out what kind of metal you  should use, what kind of shape, how many stages it should be, what kind of stiffeners it should use. This program was so awesome, that it is used by folks in the industry and referred to by his last name.

 

DH described developing this program as like building a giant mansion our of cards in his head. Every placement of every card had to be carefully thought about to makes sure that it fit properly and didn't disturb something else. If he was interrupted, it would sometime take him hours to be able to get back to where he had left off.  He ignored everything while working on this. He forgot to eat, to go to the bathroom. I would have to call him to remind him to come home.  He came to the conclusion (correctly, I think) that he was only able to do this because of his ADD. He could be inattentive to everything else and devote all of his mental energy to this software.

 

I sometimes have to concentrate on things, but nowhere to the depth and length of time that he described. Because my brain is also keeping up with stuff like where my keys are, what time it is, when I need to leave, etc.

[ktgrok]

I understand the forgetting. But, to take the tp example: after that happened the second time, would one then not come up with a long term strategy to address the problem? 

 

Only if they then remember the problem exists. I don't. I wouldn't think about it again until once again I'm sitting on the toilet with no toilet paper. at that moment I might think, I really should organize this better! I will do that, I will make a plan!

 

But by the time I'm washing my hands and leaving the bathroom I've forgotten I was even out of toilet paper. 

 

(although in this instance, I eventually, at age 40, after years of this, finally just buy toilet paper  every single time I grocery shop so I don't forget, and stash it within arms reach of the toilets. And still, sometimes, I get on the toilet and realize the toilet paper is empty and the new rolls are on the kitchen counter where I put them when I emptied the groceries. And even THEN it might take me two more times of having to use kleenex instead of toilet paper, before i remember to go move the toilet paper to the bathroom. 

[Tanaqui]

Ananenome, I, too, am becoming a bit concerned about the tenor of your posts. You say you've suffered from depression... but are you aware that a great many people who have had episodes of major depressive disorder also suffer from chronic dysthemia? (That is, a more mild but constant form of depression.) And of course, most people who suffer from dysthemia... well, it's like needing glasses. No matter how bad your vision is, it seems normal to you. Even if one time you were poked in the eye and really couldn't see, you still think that your base level of bad eyesight is normal. You might know the difference between major depression and your normal without your normal actually being normal.

 

It may not surprise you to hear this, but symptoms of dysthemia (and depression in general) include low self-esteem, irritability, poor concentration, problems with making decisions, thoughts of worthlessness or guilt... and, as it happens, depression of all sorts is often comorbid with ADHD.

 

I don't know what your life is like, and I promise this is the only time I will say this to you, but I really think it would be a good idea for you to speak to somebody about this. You don't sound very happy with yourself, and you deserve to be happy.

 

On the topic of laziness and selfishness, I actually am not sure I believe in those - at least, not outside of major personality disorders such as sociopathy and narcissism. I think that humans typically want to do the things they're motivated to do - and that most humans, being that we're a social species, are motivated to be nice to other people, especially when it requires minimal effort on their own parts. People who are mentally healthy are not lazy or selfish. So I guess it all ends up in the same place - either you have problems because of a ADHD, which is a developmental disorder - or you really are lazy and selfish, in which case you're probably suffering from a mental illness.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Tanaqui

[ktgrok]

Could you explain this a bit more? Why does it cost you more energy? I thought the issue was distractedness and lots of different thoughts at once - how does having energy to do xyz comes into play? Thanks for taking the time, I am really trying to understand. I have students with ADHD and it is sometimes exasperating.

 

Mental/emotional energy. Like...for us, dealing with the toilet paper issue is like you solving a calculus problem. It can be done, but it takes a ton of mental effort. 

[maize]

Mental/emotional energy. Like...for us, dealing with the toilet paper issue is like you solving a calculus problem. It can be done, but it takes a ton of mental effort.

A really, really tough calculus problem because I'm pretty sure regentrude breezes through ordinary calculus problems :D

[Tanaqui]

Perhaps the spoons analogy comes into play here. This page specifically expands the metaphor for ADHD. If you need the background on the analogy, go here.

[ktgrok]

My husband had a lot of compensation strategies. Thing is, such strategies are only as effective as your ability to remember that you made them. 😂

 

 

 

Yup. Grocery lists are great if you remember to bring them. I remember maybe 1 percent of the time. The other 99 percent they are either on my desk, or in the car. I have calendars but forget to look at them. Etc etc. 

 

And yes, I focus my energy on the things that matter, like not leaving a stove on. That and keeping the front door locked so kids don't escape. Keys/wallet are a step down from that. Phone a step down from that. Everything else kind of goes by the wayside. 

[ktgrok]

It is.  It's kind-of like an introvert (I'm not saying introversion is ADHD or ADHD is introversion) needing time to decompress.  She just got home.  She's probably been on high-alert mentally all day.  Her brain is tired, her brain needs to put it's feet up for a few before jumping in again.

 

And there is PRESSURE when setting a reminder. "What if I set the clock wrong? What if I don't put in the right info? Will I hear it? Will I just mess this up like I do everything else? Probably won't work anyway." 

 

That's what goes through my head. 

[ktgrok]

Yep. Setting a reminder is hard. It requires multiple steps, each of which use up mental resources.

 

Truth is, everything is hard. Just the other day we were leaving the house for something and dd13 piped up: "mom, did you know your shirt is on inside out and backwards?" Oh. It was. 

 

Getting dressed is hard. You have to actually notice which way things are facing and get them the right way. 

 

As best I can tell, most brains just pay attention to all kinds of stuff and keep it all ordered without their owners having to specifically gather and direct and keep directing that attention. From an outsider's perspective, that looks like a sort of superpower.

 

LOL, I realized in my driveway the other day, on the way to Mass, that my pants were on backwards!  I have gone to work with shirts on inside out many times. And more than once shown up with two different shoes on without realizing it. 

 

Oh, and speaking of, that's another thing I lose a lot. We do have a basket by the door, and MOST of the time I put them there now (at age 40!) but still lose them once a week at least. 

[eternalsummer]

Ananenome, I, too, am becoming a bit concerned about the tenor of your posts. You say you've suffered from depression... but are you aware that a great many people who have had episodes of major depressive disorder also suffer from chronic dysthemia? (That is, a more mild but constant form of depression.) And of course, most people who suffer from dysthemia... well, it's like needing glasses. No matter how bad your vision is, it seems normal to you. Even if one time you were poked in the eye and really couldn't see, you still think that your base level of bad eyesight is normal. You might know the difference between major depression and your normal without your normal actually being normal.

 

It may not surprise you to hear this, but symptoms of dysthemia (and depression in general) include low self-esteem, irritability, poor concentration, problems with making decisions, thoughts of worthlessness or guilt... and, as it happens, depression of all sorts is often comorbid with ADHD.

 

I don't know what your life is like, and I promise this is the only time I will say this to you, but I really think it would be a good idea for you to speak to somebody about this. You don't sound very happy with yourself, and you deserve to be happy.

 

On the topic of laziness and selfishness, I actually am not sure I believe in those - at least, not outside of major personality disorders such as sociopathy and narcissism. I think that humans typically want to do the things they're motivated to do - and that most humans, being that we're a social species, are motivated to be nice to other people, especially when it requires minimal effort on their own parts. People who are mentally healthy are not lazy or selfish. So I guess it all ends up in the same place - either you have problems because of a ADHD, which is a developmental disorder - or you really are lazy and selfish, in which case you're probably suffering from a mental illness.

 

 

 I don't have low self-esteem.  I think I am an awesome person, on the whole.  I do not think that I am awesome in every aspect. I think that's pretty normal :)  I don't feel worthless or guilty or irritable, and I actually have pretty good concentration and decision-making ability (which is how I manage to run a successful small business, homeschool DS, and manage 6 kids under 11).  

 

I am indeed happy.  

 

I am just questioning if some behaviors which are in fact negative (not cleaning up after oneself is in fact a negative behavior, among others), which I have had trouble managing, are difficult for me to manage because of something other than lack of willpower, basically.

 

Do you think all lazy or selfish people are mentally ill?  That seems a bit much to me, and would change the definition of mental illness.

[ktgrok]

 

As for ADD drugs themselves - you could be a lot more efficient as a normal-brained person if you were a normal=brained person who took speed.  You'd get more done and lots of things would be easier.  Unfortunately it also is addictive (to a degree) and has some negative side effects, so it makes more sense to adapt as well as you can without it.

 

No, people addicted to speed are not well known for being productive members of society, lol. They THINK they are but no they are not. 

[eternalsummer]

Yup. Grocery lists are great if you remember to bring them. I remember maybe 1 percent of the time. The other 99 percent they are either on my desk, or in the car. I have calendars but forget to look at them. Etc etc. 

 

And yes, I focus my energy on the things that matter, like not leaving a stove on. That and keeping the front door locked so kids don't escape. Keys/wallet are a step down from that. Phone a step down from that. Everything else kind of goes by the wayside. 

 

 

Yes, this happens to me a lot.  I sort of figured this happened to everyone?  (the grocery list thing)

 

Yes to keeping the front door locked!  That is my number one thing that I keep at the top of my head all the time: Is the door open?  Is it open?  Is it open?  We finally invested in this super gate from amazon that sort of shuts off that whole side of the house, so my anxiety about the door is reduced somewhat.  But I think those things are normal for people who have more than one small child.  They are difficult to wrangle.  

 

My in-laws never seem to understand why I don't want to spend long at any house but ours - ours is very carefully childproofed.

[Tanaqui]

Do you think all lazy or selfish people are mentally ill?

 

I don't think I've ever come across a genuine example of laziness and selfishness in my life. I've come across many things which would be easier for me if I decided they were "lazy" or "selfish" and then wrote off the person who did them as a "bad person" - but further examination has always revealed something deeper going on. (I'd almost say it's lazy and selfish to attribute behaviors we don't like to poor character... but I understand the motivations behind that decision as well, so I know better.)

[eternalsummer]

No, people addicted to speed are not well known for being productive members of society, lol. They THINK they are but no they are not. 

 

 

I dunno, this was the first google result:

http://www.fastweb.com/student-life/articles/the-problem-with-study-drugs

 

This was the second: http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2425&context=utk_graddiss

 

Here's a third: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/778843

 

 

All these students aren't using prescription stimulants because they're *not* effective...

[eternalsummer]

I don't think I've ever come across a genuine example of laziness and selfishness in my life. I've come across many things which would be easier for me if I decided they were "lazy" or "selfish" and then wrote off the person who did them as a "bad person" - but further examination has always revealed something deeper going on. (I'd almost say it's lazy and selfish to attribute behaviors we don't like to poor character... but I understand the motivations behind that decision as well, so I know better.)

 

 

Huh, I think selfishness, to one degree or another, is in pretty much everyone, and probably has some evolutionary benefit (as a counter to communal behavior, which has its own set of benefits). 

 

I don't know how else to explain a lot of behavior, other than selfishness.  

[ktgrok]

I only know a few kids personally who have taken Ritalin or Adderall (I don't know what other drugs there are, or what is normal).  They were different kids on the drugs.  One was weepy, stopped eating, and couldn't sleep.  So he was given sleeping pills (melatonin, I think?), and they were considering uppers (he was 5 years old, btw).  On the drugs he was much more polite, quiet, stopped running out into the street, stopped  getting in trouble at school for impulsive behavior.  Another was a girl my age; she said the drugs made her feel muted and like she was wading through fog; on the other hand she could get her work done on time.  She quit taking them as soon as she was no longer required to by her parents.  Unfortunately she had not learned any adaptive behaviors (because she'd been medicated her whole childhood) and the first couple of years of college were rough as she figured out how to navigate.  She's functional now, though.

 

I can say that is NOTHING like my son's experience on meds. Nothing. He's still him. He can just remember and focus better. He is happier, so yeah, that's a personality change, but he's happier because he's less frustrated. I'm not sure why someone would want to be unhappy and frustrated just to avoid changing their personality. 

[Tanaqui]

All these students aren't using prescription stimulants because they're *not* effective...

 

Are you saying that people always make optimal decisions? Perhaps they begin using these stimulants under the false belief that they are effective, and then are unable to rationally assess whether or not the drugs actually helped them. Do you have any studies showing that those drugs are effective for NT students?

 

[eternalsummer]

Also, I have to say that in every community of (primarily) women I've ever been a part of, when a member insists on pursuing a line of thought or argument or discussion that is out of the group's general scope of accepted beliefs, eventually someone starts to ask if the member might be mentally ill and expresses concern for her :)  I mean, it is constant!  (though this is the first time it's happened to me)

 

I think it must be a group-preservation thing: if we redefine the person who won't agree with us as mentally ill, then the challenge of her nonconforming behavior is diminished back to a safe distance.

[Tanaqui]

I don't know how else to explain a lot of behavior, other than selfishness.

 

I've seen some of your examples on this thread. Other people have given you alternative explanations, but you've rejected them.

[eternalsummer]

Are you saying that people always make optimal decisions? Perhaps they begin using these stimulants under the false belief that they are effective, and then are unable to rationally assess whether or not the drugs actually helped them. Do you have any studies showing that those drugs are effective for NT students?

 

No, but don't they give stimulants to members of the military in situations where they need to perform better or for very long periods of time, especially pilots?  (I just remember reading this and am not certain)

[ktgrok]

It's important to remember that people with ADD generally respond differently to most stimulants than most people do. Most people who drink coffee do so to wake up and feel more energetic. My husband can drink coffee to help him calm down enough to go to sleep. Things like Adderall in the correct dosage do not have the same affect on a correctly dx ADHD patient as they do on people who abuse the drugs to be able to study all night or obtain a high. Focus is a calming thing, not a high energy thing.

 

That some people are prescribed drugs they don't need or are overmedicating their children does not mean the issue is with the drug itself.

 

I've never taken ritalin (pregnant or nursing since I realized this was a thing), but when I take Sudafed  I'm more relaxed, and I understand that most people are wired by it. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by ktgrok

[eternalsummer]

I've seen some of your examples on this thread. Other people have given you alternative explanations, but you've rejected them.

 

 

I'm not talking in this instance about ADHD-caused behaviors.  I'm talking more about larger moral issues - say, why someone doesn't contribute anything to charity, ever (even though they can) or why they cheat on their taxes, or why they support factory farming, or a million other things.

[Janeway]

If someone had undiagnosed ADD, I would think of them as disorganized, not lazy. They would appear disorganized, not lazy. For example, when they needed to be at community service, they might have forgotten, but be at home doing school work or cleaning. That does not appear lazy. And the H in ADHD means hyper. Hyper people do not appear lazy, they appear to be all over the place or even flighty. But they would also not likely to be called lazy.

 

You know what we say when we forget something... AT OUR AGE??? LOL....we point out our age..and mention something about growing old quickly. ha ha ha ha ha

[Arcadia]

I had punched time cards on my first temp job in 1991. Luckily when I started my Internship, time log was by those security (beep/swipe at the door) Motorola manufactured cards. I hate the loud sound of the time log punch card machine.

 

Many people in my family hyperfocus, including my kids and me. Hyperfocus is not just an ADHD trait. I asked the psych that evaluated my kids out of curiosity. I know many escalation engineers that hyperfocus for days when they have a tough case. Sleeping at your desk at your cubicle is norm enough that they have spare clothes at their cubicle, don't even need to go to their cars to retrieve spare clothes.

 

"Sam: And can people without ADHD have this hyperfocus?

 

Brandon: Absolutely. You see this in normal populations all the time, you know, anybody has had this experience where they just get so focused in on something that they’re just not paying attention to anything else. So you might have an experience where you say that you’re really in the zone on something. That’s essentially hyperfocus.

 

Sam: Is it that people with ADHD have this more commonly? How does one distinguish whether it’s ADHD or whether someone’s just really in the zone all the time?

 

Brandon: Well, if it’s a symptom of ADHD, it usually presents with a host of other symptoms that are also related to ADHD. So it wouldn’t be seen just in isolation, which is what would make you think that this is actually related to ADHD rather than something else. However, one of the problems we have right now is that we don’t know what makes hyperfocus different in people with ADHD and people who don’t have ADHD." http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/accessibility/transcripts/brandon-ashionoff-adhd.aspx

[ktgrok]

Yes, I like to use glasses too.  They are useful.  I like to see all of the little leaves on the trees. :)  But the reason I have glasses instead of contacts is that I like to be able to take them off, and see without them, with just my eyes.  It feels good.  

 

 

You have my desire re: ADHD backwards.

 

That's because your prescription isn't that bad. And maybe your ADHD is't that bad either. My prescription is more in the 550/575 range. I cannot function without my glasses. Seeing with my "own eyes" keeps me from functioning properly. If my ADHD did that, I'd want meds. (and kind of do, but pregnant now and nursing afterwards)

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[ktgrok]

I don't think I am a jerk :)  I do think I am somewhat lazy, and probably somewhat selfish.  I am also quite generous and diligent and forgiving, so on the whole not a jerk.

 

 

For people who are those things and don't have ADHD (surely they exist), does it really matter?  If we say you have these behaviors because your brain is wired a certain way, why do we judge them negatively? (regardless of what is causing the different wiring, ADHD or no)

 

 

Ok, if you are generous and forgiving and diligent, how can you be lazy and selfish? If you WANT to help others and are motivated to do so, and yet don't, that doesn't sound like selfish to me. Selfish people don't want to help others. They don't care what others think. That's selfish. Lazy is not caring if it gets done. 

 

ADHD is caring very much, but not managing to get it done. 

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