The Mary Tyler Moore Show

[fairfarmhand]

So as I was doing some mindless work yesterday, I watched an episode of the MTM show. I totally forgot how hilarious it was for one thing. I used to watch it in reruns with my mom. But for another, listening to the theme song, I was struck by how it seemed that the show was trying to make a point that a thirtysomething professional woman could make it alone.

 

Was that really so unusual for the time in which it was filmed?

 

Was that really a groundbreaking theme for that generation?

 

I was born in late '79 and it just boggles my mind that the accepted role for a woman was wife/kids. And it was a big deal for a lady to be single working professional.

 

Am I reading the show correctly? Or am I over analyzing a simple comedy?

[Lady Florida.]

You young whippersnappers ;) don't often realize how late in the 20th century women were still fighting to be equal (and we still are really). Yes, it was a big deal for women to make it in what were typically male professions. The character of Mary Richards was in a typically male profession. If you're able to watch the pilot episode you'll see Lou Grant wrestle with the decision whether or not to hire a woman for the position. Of course it's hilarious but yeah, it was uncommon for her to get that job. 

 

A single thirty-something woman should have been husband hunting to find someone before it was too late.

[TechWife]

Yes, it was a big deal. She also wore pants to work, it was downright shocking.  

 

I'm really glad your mind is boggled by this, though. It means women are making progress, however slowly it might be occurring. 

[redsquirrel]

super, super super groundbreaking. Hard to overstate just how groundbreaking.  I think you can go to Marlo Thomas in 'That Girl' to see it a little earlier? There must have been other women whose marital status was undefined, certainly small parts...but for a lead role? that was not common at all

 

The writers of the show wanted to make Mary Richards a divorced woman, but the network nixed it.  Most importantly, it was seen as being too controversial, secondly, they were afraid audiences would think she was divorced from Dick Van Dike, her onscreen husband on her previous job, lol.  So, they created a 'broken engagement' to make her sympathetic. She had been left at the alter, so it was ok to like her.

 

After her came the idols of my youth..Laverne and Shirley.  I adored them.  They were two working class women living on their own. My friends and i watched every single episode, spent free time making elaborate plans about what our apartments would be like and who would be roommates with who.  Interestingly, we never played 'getting married' or talked about who we might marry. We were too busy imagining living in basement apartments and working. That was much, much closer to the lives we led after graduation.

[redsquirrel]

Yes, it was a big deal. She also wore pants to work, it was downright shocking.  

 

I'm really glad your mind is boggled by this, though. It means women are making progress, however slowly it might be occurring. 

 

Yes! The pants!  I remember my grandfather grumping about that. 

 

As kids, we didn't understand what his problem was. We would look at him like he was talking a different language, lol.

We were just... :mellow: :mellow:  :mellow:  :mellow:   (there were four of us) 

[OneStepAtATime]

Agreed, it was a big deal.  And yep, the pants, LOL.  :)

 

 

[JennW in SoCal]

As a child of the 60s and 70s I can attest that there were not many role models of successful, single working women on television or in the movies. Uhura on Star Trek, even though she didn't say more than "Hailing frequencies open, Captain', was a big deal to little girls like me, who were excited by the idea that a woman could be on the bridge, too. My mom actually used the character of Mary Richards to encourage me to pursue a career of my own. There weren't any others that I can think of.  Shoot -- I grew up watching reruns of Petticoat Junction which actually had a song in one episode, "The everyday housewife who gave up the good life for me". Yeah -- the message was fairly clear!  (I had forgotten about "That Girl" -- she was single and on her own, too, wasn't she?!)

 

The other "strong" women on tv were simply objects -- the first Wonder Woman, Charlie's Angels.  (Some boys put that famous Farah Fawcett poster up in my 10th grade English classroom, and sat there giggling over it for several weeks -- the male teacher didn't object or have it removed!)

 

I found a fascinating article from The Atlantic on the behind-the-scenes feminist break throughs of the show

 

The Real Feminist Impact of the Mary Tyler Moore Show

[redsquirrel]

And it should also be pointed out that Nichelle Nichols as Uhura, actually Nyota Uhura, was an even earlier example of a single working woman. Star Trek started in 1966.  She was a central character but wasn't the lead.  I figured out later on that she was in fact an officer and would have been in line for command. But when I was a little girl, I thought she was like the secretary of the Enterprise. I figured it out later on.

 

The first show with an African American woman in the lead was "Julia",1968-1971 and started Diahann Carroll.  MTM ran 1970-1977, so Julia, as a widowed single mother, was first.

[Lady Florida.]

I still laugh when I think of the group hug in the series finale. Feminism aside the show was really, really funny. It had Betty White and Cloris Leachman. How could it not be funny? 

[Guest]

It was about career, being single, planning a career (not just a job), finding a voice of authority and getting respected while still being ... nice. It was also about female friendship, equality in relationship, a bit about the sexual revolution, and about male-female relationships. The relationship with the boss Lou Grant was really explored.. Was he a father figure? Were they in love? Or supposed to be? Were they friends, and was this even possible with a boss/employee relationship.

 

But it was light, not preachy. There was a genuineness about it. None of the characters were cartoons.

[Audrey]

So as I was doing some mindless work yesterday, I watched an episode of the MTM show. I totally forgot how hilarious it was for one thing. I used to watch it in reruns with my mom. But for another, listening to the theme song, I was struck by how it seemed that the show was trying to make a point that a thirtysomething professional woman could make it alone.

 

Was that really so unusual for the time in which it was filmed?

 

Was that really a groundbreaking theme for that generation?

 

I was born in late '79 and it just boggles my mind that the accepted role for a woman was wife/kids. And it was a big deal for a lady to be single working professional.

 

Am I reading the show correctly? Or am I over analyzing a simple comedy?

It was a very big deal for a 30-something woman to be independent then. I remember my parents telling me about their relationship and the impact that their age had on it. They were both 30 when they wed (in 1967) and that was very old for then. They had a very serious discussion about what to do if my mother was "too old" to have a baby. They decided they would like to have children and would adopt if they couldn't have their own. AND, they felt quite seriously and strongly that they should adopt an older child because they, themselves were already so old to be starting with babies. I thought it was odd when I first heard of this from them (I think I was in my early teens at the time), but they were quite serious. My mother had been working as a bookkeeper in the Bahamas for a good 10 years before she married and that was considered rather scandalous by many of her peers. Luckily, my father thought it was just fine, and his mother and father had no problem with a hard-working woman for a daughter-in-law. They were practical, hard-working people themselves and my dad's mom had been employed nearly all her married life, too. But that was also a rare thing in that day (and earlier).

 

My mother continued to work when married to my father, and he often took comments about that. It was perceived that if a man's wife "had to work" then he wasn't a good provider. My dad thought that idea was, in his sailor's vernacular, "a pile of horsesh!t" and he had no problem with telling anyone that who would question him on it. But, that perception was still there and very prevalent. Even into the 1980's there would be comments about wives who "had to work." There wasn't much conception that a woman might WANT to work.

 

The "backward" days aren't so far back as you think. And, then... there are some people who remain firmly entrenched in those horsesh!t notions, too.

[gardenmom5]

my mother watched it, so I picked it up first run.  yes, it was unusual for the time.

[gardenmom5]

 . The relationship with the boss Lou Grant was really explored.. Was he a father figure? Were they in love? Or supposed to be? Were they friends, and was this even possible with a boss/employee relationship.

 

But it was light, not preachy. There was a genuineness about it. None of the characters were cartoons.

 

 

ewwww. . . . . he was too old for her.  besides that would have been a cliché and demeaning to an otherwise independent woman.  I always got they're were friendly - and respected each other.

 

ted could  have been a cartoon ... 

[Guest]

They actually explored a romantic relationship I think it was two episodes. Lou even brought flowers and they went on a date. It was super awkward for the characters but ultimately charming.

 

Ted was comical but not cartoonish. He wasn't a flat character. He was incompetent, insecure, and pretty human. Multi dimensional.

[sarasue7272]

So now I'm watching it on Hulu. Hilarious!

[Amira]

When Everything Changed by Gail Collins is a great book to read about how everything really did change for women after the 1960s.

[bettyandbob]

Very big deal!

 

I have had trouble getting that into my dd's head. She's grown up with the idea that there are no limits and really doesn't understand there were limits everywhere.

 

It wasn't just career. It was education. Women in colleges and law school and med school were "taking the spot of a man." My mother in law was told in her Fulbright interview she was the best candidate but they wouldn't give it to her because she was just going to get married.

 

Another area was sports. Title IX made a huge difference to women.

[KatieJ]

Pants..I remember dress code changes to allow girls to wear pants to school when I was in Jr high. Then another change to allow jeans ( make and female) to school when I was a senior.

I worked for a Dr after high school. My uniform was a short white dress. I did all the filing amongst my other duties and really was uncomfortable in that short dress. I asked the other two staff members why we didn't wear pants. Dr didn't allow it but feel free to ask him. I did and he gave us permission to change to pants and a top. This was 1973.

[Guest]

Speaking of scandalous, who remembers when Murphy Brown dated to be a single mom? That was not that long ago. How quickly things change.

[redsquirrel]

Was that a typo? She wasn't trying to become a single mom, she had a reunion with her estranged husband. He decided not to stick around after all, and she found out she was pregnant.

 

Dan Qualye misrepresenting it to make his political point was infuriating to fans. She agonized over whether to abort and decided to keep the baby. He (who admitted he'd never seen the show) said she decided to bear a child out of wedlock as "a lifestyle choice."

 

pretty sure she meant 'dared'

 

I loved the episode that was her baby shower. They had all these real journalists come on and give her gifts that they had found helpful as working mothers.  Murphy thought the baby went in the diaper bag, lol.  And her male coworker who taught her how to hold a baby properly.  They did a nice job of showing the truth of parenting...that almost no one is a 'natural' and we all need to be taught how to do things.  And, that some people are never going to look like a traditional mother or father but are still loving and attached parents. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by redsquirrel

[Lady Florida.]

So now I'm watching it on Hulu. Hilarious!

 

I didn't realize it's on Hulu! Thanks for the notice.

 

Speaking of scandalous, who remembers when Murphy Brown dated to be a single mom? That was not that long ago. How quickly things change.

 

Oh yes, that was a huge big deal. As was the fact that she was a hard hitting journalist - another typically male profession. Murphy Brown began ten years after the Mary Tyler Moore Show ended and single professional women in a "man's job" was still uncommon.

[gardenmom5]

I remember when pantsuits for women came out in the 60's - my grandmother was thrilled.  not sure she ever wore a dress afterwards.

 

 

 

Speaking of scandalous, who remembers when Murphy Brown dated to be a single mom? That was not that long ago. How quickly things change.

 

Candace bergman has had second thoughts on that and has expressed her own concerns.

 

and think about it - mtm, was the kind of person you'd want to be friends with.  murphy?  she was regularly sarcastic and insulting.  but it's TV and there is much on TV/movies that is done for humor, that wouldn't be tolerated in real life.  (and stuff that would get people arrested in real life that is done for "humor".)   and just like corpral max klinger was only meant to be in one ep but became permanent - same with Eldon.  he was only supposed to be in one episode.  but he was great. one of the more sane characters on the show.

[ktgrok]

I remember when pantsuits for women came out in the 60's - my grandmother was thrilled.  not sure she ever wore a dress afterwards.

 

 

 

I think a LOT of women of that time period felt that way. It explains why 90 percent of the senior women at my parish are in pants, not skirts or dresses. It's the young women in dresses. (also the younger women that wear a veil, although there are only a few of them. The older women remember the bad old days and don't want to go back I guess.)

[redsquirrel]

I think a LOT of women of that time period felt that way. It explains why 90 percent of the senior women at my parish are in pants, not skirts or dresses. It's the young women in dresses. (also the younger women that wear a veil, although there are only a few of them. The older women remember the bad old days and don't want to go back I guess.)

 

That can absolutely be part of it. 

 

My mom was never, ever a dress or skirt person. She is very practical and always wears pants, has short hair, no make up etc. But now that she is 70 she is even less likely to wear a skirt to an event unless she absolutely has to because she doesn't like how her legs look in a skirt. She feels self conscious about varicose veins etc.  She isn't going to wear a very long skirt because to her, a skirt is 'a little below the knee' and anything else is faddish or for young women.  Why would she wear a skirt to her ankles when she can just wear pants?  Plus, she occasionally has a little difficulty standing up or sitting down, not much, but I know she would feel mortified if she couldn't get out of her car modestly.  Pants solve that problem.

[kewb]

Yes, it was that groundbreaking and that big of a deal. And very funny.

 

I was born in the 60's and Mary Tyler Moore, Rhoda, and That Girl all helped women realize you are more than someone's wife.

 

And there is still so far to go.

[Guest]

I've been thinking about this today.  My mom loved this show, and I was thinking about the conversations we had about it over the years, and also about my mom's character and accomplishments.  

 

Mom loved that show because she could identify with it in a lot of ways.  She was an accomplished (award-winning) journalist for a major metropolitan daily paper, both before and after marriage and motherhood.  She was an athlete, and won city tennis tournaments into her late 40s.  AND she is a woman with deep and abiding sense of humor.  And I think it was the *light touch* that the MTM show took that made it a good show, and one my mom liked.  Because she was a little nonplussed to find out that she shouldn't have been able to "make it after all" before the 70s.  She'd been at it for 25 years by that time.  

 

If you knew my maiden name, you could Google "maiden name Getty Images" and you would find a 1965 picture of my mom at her manual typewriter (the same one I used to get through college 15 years later).  It was the picture used in the story about one of her awards.  

 

The reason I mention the picture is this:  as I said above, my mom was a little nonplussed to find that doing what she had been doing for all these years was so hard and so new that a whole TV empire was built around the idea.  She just was who she was.  

 

But here are a couple of interesting points:  When my dad was dying last year, the hospice lady asked my mom why she married my dad, what she loved about him.  Her response:  "He let me be who I am.  He didn't try to squash me."  My dad was a contrast to the other guys she dated who were too insecure to deal with a strong and accomplished woman.  She married when she was 30 (old in those days).  (Her own mother married at age 33, after supporting herself independently from age 16...my grandmother was born in 1890!)   

 

The other thing that struck me was the caption for the photo; I don't need to explain why it is a little odd:  "Mrs. Doe and her husband, John Doe, live with their two small daughters in ______."  Nowhere in the caption is my mother identified by her Christian name.  

 

Mom found her path by being herself and surrounding herself with people who respected that.  But the society at large still couldn't recognize her by name, only by role.  

[Lady Florida.]

Ann Marie (That Girl) had Daddy and Donald to keep her in line when she got too independent. Mary Richards had Mr. Grant to do the same but she also had Rhoda to counter her when she was unsure of herself, and a male friend in Murray who respected her as an equal. Murphy Brown didn't have or need a man to look after her. It doesn't mean she didn't want male companionship or love, but that she could be successful on her own. Some say Ally McBeal was the next level of single professional women but that show wasn't without its criticisms, often coming from feminists.

 

 

In 1973 when my mother and stepfather split up:

 

-My mother couldn't get a check cashing card at the grocery store because her bank account belonged to her alone - no man's name was on the account.

 

-She couldn't get a car loan without a male co-signer even though she was financially capable of making payments. My grandfather had to co-sign for her. He was retired and living on a fixed income but he was male and that's all that mattered.

 

-She tried to buy life insurance and the salesman sat at our kitchen table and told her sarcastically if she wanted life insurance she should get a husband. "There's your life insurance", he said. He refused to sell her a policy when she wanted to be able to provide for us if something happened to her.

 

I was a senior in high school and was shocked at all of this. I thought we were living in liberated times. She raised me to believe I could be/do anything I wanted. Anything I guess except the simple things like get a check cashing card (that was a big deal then), a car loan, or life insurance. Four years later when I bought my first car from a car dealer my mother was able to co-sign for me. Some changes happened fast, some still aren't complete.

[Guest]

Ann Marie (That Girl) had Daddy and Donald to keep her in line when she got too independent. Mary Richards had Mr. Grant to do the same but she also had Rhoda to counter her when she was unsure of herself, and a male friend in Murray who respected her as an equal. Murphy Brown didn't have or need a man to look after her. It doesn't mean she didn't want male companionship or love, but that she could be successful on her own. Some say Ally McBeal was the next level of single professional women but that show wasn't without its criticisms, often coming from feminists.

(snip)

 

Don't forget One Day at a Time--divorced mom of two teens.  

Bob Newhart (the show with Suzanne Pleshette) was actually a little bit forward-thinking as well, as they were a happy couple with 2 careers, no kids in the works.

 

One thing that was pretty fun about MTM was while Mary was the main character, there were other women on that show, and they were not just MiniMarys, but each had their own developed character, with strengths and foibles.  The writing on that show was so good.  Phyllis was strong in some ways, but had the weaknesses of her strengths...as did all the characters.  The one that never stopped astounding me was Georgette who came across as a dumb blond...but she was NOT and was really strong...without having to change her presentation to be so.  All the main characters were well written and complex, but it sort of stands out more with the women.  

[bettyandbob]

 

Bob Newhart (the show with Suzanne Pleshette) was actually a little bit forward-thinking as well, as they were a happy couple with 2 careers, no kids in the works.

 

I recently watched some early episodes of this. One of them was about efforts to go on a trip at a specific time because her doctor had the timing would be good for getting pregnant. I thought it was an interesting early foray into infertility.

 

There's also an episode where Bob is upset when her new job keeps her from being home to make dinner some nights. She did plan ahead and leave food for him to heat up.

[Guest]

I recently watched some early episodes of this. One of them was about efforts to go on a trip at a specific time because her doctor had the timing would be good for getting pregnant. I thought it was an interesting early foray into infertility.

 

There's also an episode where Bob is upset when her new job keeps her from being home to make dinner some nights. She did plan ahead and leave food for him to heat up.

 

 

You're right about the early foray.  

 

The thing is, even though she left him food to heat up (which was sweet and an act of generosity), she didn't cancel her attendance at the meeting.  There's people this very day, 40 years later, who would be scandalized by THAT.  LOL

[maize]

This is fascinating to me. I was not aware of things like women being unable to get life insurance or loans in their own name so recently. I have an aunt who never married and spent her life as a professional woman, so I guess that never seemed strange to me. My mom was a very traditional stay at home mom but my dad was always concerned about making sure his daughters would be able to support themselves if necessary--we were not raised with the expectation of relying on a man for support.

 

I spent most of my formative years outside of the US and in a household without a TV so I'm not much aware of media portrayals.

[gardenmom5]

 

Bob Newhart (the show with Suzanne Pleshette) was actually a little bit forward-thinking as well, as they were a happy couple with 2 careers, no kids in the works.

 

and carol . . .  might be the receptionist - but they all depended upon her.

 

I loved the murphy brown ep where she was her secretary of the day . . .  murphy was ecstatic.

[Lady Florida.]

Thanks to The Hive and this thread I decided to watch the show. It will be my silly show when dh isn't home and I want a show that's not long and will make me laugh. 

 

There are two things I forgot about the show -

 

-That Mary's apartment was originally supposed to be Rhoda's.

-That Phyllis had a daughter.

 

Both were "Oh yeah, I remember" moments when I watched.

 

I didn't watch the show all the way through. I went away to college while it was still on, and other things to do on Saturday nights besides watch tv. ;) I did however, watch the series finale and had seen much of the later seasons in syndication over the years. I know it got serious for a while and took on a few social issues. Comedies did that back then but they were often preachy, moralizing, and would hit you over the head with it. 

[Guest]

Thanks to The Hive and this thread I decided to watch the show. It will be my silly show when dh isn't home and I want a show that's not long and will make me laugh.

 

There are two things I forgot about the show -

 

-That Mary's apartment was originally supposed to be Rhoda's.

-That Phyllis had a daughter.

 

Both were "Oh yeah, I remember" moments when I watched.

 

I didn't watch the show all the way through. I went away to college while it was still on, and other things to do on Saturday nights besides watch tv. ;) I did however, watch the series finale and had seen much of the later seasons in syndication over the years. I know it got serious for a while and took on a few social issues. Comedies did that back then but they were often preachy, moralizing, and would hit you over the head with it.

My son nursed endlessly. MTM was the show I watched at 2 am. At 4 am, it was the Hip Hop Body Shop.

 

:0)

[FaithManor]

I just read "Rise of the Rocket Girls" and while I have always known how bad rhings were for women it still startled me that the extraordinary accomplishments of these women at JPL were so easily overlooked.

 

Well and infuriated me that they were forced to take part in beauty pageants and while the male engineers showed up to work looking like slobs at times, none of the women could dream of wearing practical shoes to work or having a hair out of place, lacking lipstick.

 

Rock on MTM! Rock on!

 

In terms of the present one of the things I really appreciate about Madame Secretary with Tea Leoni is that the marriage is protrayed as a true partnership. She worries about the demands of her job, but Henry is all about her answering the call to serve the country and role model social responsibility to the kids. They deal with some pretty deep topics in a fairly pro family way without demonizing these two parents with their crazy public service jobs.

 

I do not watch much on tv though so I have no idea if there is anything else on that explores these topics on a serious level.