Is this a violation of academic integrity? UPDATE in post 61

[EKS]

I am taking a graduate course where one of the activities is participating in an online discussion group.  When we write posts, we are required to use APA formatting, which includes listing references.

 

I made a post last night that had a unique set of references.  This morning I discovered that another student copied and pasted my references into three of his posts.  He had used one of the references in each of his posts (the same one each time--one of the textbooks for the class) but not any of the others.

 

Is this a violation of academic integrity?  

 

If it is, would you report it?  

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by EKS

[Bluegoat]

No, I would not consider that a violation of academic integrity - copying and pasting an reference entry isn't plagarism - there are computer programs used by academics that will do it for you automatically.  It's not really different than copying and pasting a name that you are going to use if it is easier than just typing it.

 

He did it badly, so I guess I would call it a formating error, and he clearly wasn't paying very good attention.

[Hunter's Moon]

If you're following APA formatting as it's currently laid out, how do you know that the student copied the reference and didn't just use the same formatting as you?

 

I use APA formatting as well in my courses, so I'm just trying to get an idea of what you added to your reference list citation that made it unique.

 

ETA: Oh, I think I understand. The student copied your entire list of references and added it to the end of his posts, but he only actually used one of the references listed in his work? Unfortunately, I don't think that could be considered plagiarism. I imagine he'll get docked a few points though for having extra references listed (especally since there'd be nothing in-text that matches them).

Edited August 23, 2016 by Hunter's Moon

[Tap]

How do you know he copied it?

[Bluegoat]

If you're following APA formatting as it's currently laid out, how do you know that the student copied the reference and didn't just use the same formatting as you?

 

I use APA formatting as well in my courses, so I'm just trying to get an idea of what you added to your reference list citation that made it unique. That would color my answer.

 

I think because both times he also copied some other references that weren't applicable to his posts but which EKS had used in hers.  So it looks like he just copied her reference block and reproduced it by paste.  Which IMO is fine but he should have excised the irrelevant information.

[Bluegoat]

I think it is really odd that online discussion would need APA formatting though, that can't make for a very realistic "class discussion" if you have to worry about that stuff.  So I am not surprised that people are being fast and loose with copy/paste if they want to keep up and pay attention to content.

 

I wouldn't necessarily be very anal about things in that kind of format even if they were close to the line, it isn't the same as a paper IMO.

[Josh Blade]

How do you know he copied it?

 

It sounds like he also cited two sources that OP cited without actually using them (which would then imply he copied her citations) . At the end of the day, I don't think it's really an integrity issue. Definitely not worth reporting or squabbling over. 

Edited August 23, 2016 by Josh Blade

[Hunter's Moon]

I think because both times he also copied some other references that weren't applicable to his posts but which EKS had used in hers. So it looks like he just copied her reference block and reproduced it by paste. Which IMO is fine but he should have excised the irrelevant information.

Yeah, I didn't realize that the guy had copied her entire list of reference until right after I posted.

 

I agree that copying and pasting references isn't plagiarism, but I think he screwed himself a bit by keeping the non-used references in his list. I'm sure he'll lose a few points for that.

[EKS]

If you're following APA formatting as it's currently laid out, how do you know that the student copied the reference and didn't just use the same formatting as you?

 

I use APA formatting as well in my courses, so I'm just trying to get an idea of what you added to your reference list citation that made it unique.

 

ETA: Oh, I think I understand. The student copied your entire list of references and added it to the end of his posts, but he only actually used one of the references listed in his work? Unfortunately, I don't think that could be considered plagiarism. I imagine he'll get docked a few points though for having extra references listed (especally since there'd be nothing in-text that matches them).

 

He didn't use three of the four.

[EKS]

How do you know he copied it?

 

The only in-line citation (in all three of his posts) was referencing the course textbook.  The other three were for journal articles that had nothing to do with his posts.

Edited August 31, 2016 by EKS

[Hunter's Moon]

I think it is really odd that online discussion would need APA formatting though, that can't make for a very realistic "class discussion" if you have to worry about that stuff. So I am not surprised that people are being fast and loose with copy/paste if they want to keep up and pay attention to content.

 

I wouldn't necessarily be very anal about things in that kind of format even if they were close to the line, it isn't the same as a paper IMO.

This.

 

I have the same format in my courses, and it does nothing to encourage actual class discussions. Instead, you have students just regurgitating facts in reply to each other. The discussion goes absolutely no where after the initial posting.

[bolt.]

If he followed up your references (went and looked at them because your post interested him) he needed to cite them, and to do so correctly his reference would be the same as yours. Therefore, I think copy-paste would be fine.

 

However, if he did not follow up your references, did not read them, and they did not support or inform his posts, then he is "bibliography padding" -- which all profs can recognize.

 

In either case, it's not plagiarism. At worst, it's padding.

Edited August 23, 2016 by bolt.

[EKS]

I think because both times he also copied some other references that weren't applicable to his posts but which EKS had used in hers.  So it looks like he just copied her reference block and reproduced it by paste.  Which IMO is fine but he should have excised the irrelevant information.

 

This--I really don't care about him being too lazy to format his own reference list!

 

Actually, I don't really care about his forgetting to remove the irrelevant references, but the academic integrity policy says I need to report violations.

[EKS]

I think it is really odd that online discussion would need APA formatting though, that can't make for a very realistic "class discussion" if you have to worry about that stuff.  So I am not surprised that people are being fast and loose with copy/paste if they want to keep up and pay attention to content.

 

I wouldn't necessarily be very anal about things in that kind of format even if they were close to the line, it isn't the same as a paper IMO.

 

The online "discussions" are ridiculous in so many ways.

[kiana]

I don't think it's something you need to report. 

 

If the professor is worth anything at all, they'll say something about citing references you didn't use to the student. 

[QueenCat]

I think it is really odd that online discussion would need APA formatting though, that can't make for a very realistic "class discussion" if you have to worry about that stuff.  So I am not surprised that people are being fast and loose with copy/paste if they want to keep up and pay attention to content.

 

I wouldn't necessarily be very anal about things in that kind of format even if they were close to the line, it isn't the same as a paper IMO.

 

All of my classes for my bachelors were online. The discussion posts had to be cited using APA. But you also had to use in-text citations that matched the reference list.

[QueenCat]

He didn't use three of the four.

 

I really think the professor will notice that.... dh used to teach masters level classes and really watched for that kind of thing. If you do report it, I'd only report it to the professor.

[Bluegoat]

If he followed up your references (went and looked at them because your post interested him) he needed to cite them, and to do so correctly his reference would be the same as yours. Therefore, I think copy-paste would be fine.

 

However, if he did not follow up your references, did not read them, and they did not support or inform his posts, then he is "bibliography padding" -- which all profs can recognize.

 

In either case, it's not plagiarism. At worst, it's padding.

 

It wasn't a paper though, it was an online discussion - how do you have a discussion when you are trying to write a bibliography as you go along?

 

I have no idea how that even makes sense - if I am in a class, in person, that has a discussion, I might wave my copy of the book in the air vaguely, but I am not expected to hand out the citations in any kind of format to every member of the class.  And even the book waving is optional, if I left it home I'd just say the title of the book.

 

I've never done an online class in something where there needs to be class discussions, and if that is a normal requirement, it just says to me that it is an inappropriate format for that topic.

[Bluegoat]

This--I really don't care about him being too lazy to format his own reference list!

 

Actually, I don't really care about his forgetting to remove the irrelevant references, but the academic integrity policy says I need to report violations.

 

I think they mean real violations, not formatting errors in this kind of situation.

[zoobie]

Instead of reporting, if it's an online discussion, can you quote him and say, hey, I noticed my references here. You read the same ones? [insert relevant question to his use of the same resources... I found that X had differing views on blah. Did you have this conflict as well?] 

[nd293]

Yes and yes. Of course copying a specific reference isn't an issue - any citation software would churn out the same reference - but the fact that he copied and pasted all three is an issue and it is not appropriate. I would report it.

 

On the other hand I would expect it to be a matter of discussion rather than discipline from the university's side.

[luuknam]

It sounds like he also cited two sources that OP cited without actually using them (which would then imply he copied her citations) . At the end of the day, I don't think it's really an integrity issue. Definitely not worth reporting or squabbling over. 

 

I do think bibliography padding is an integrity issue. Especially if there were rules about needing to cite at least x sources (which I've had in online class discussions). That said, I don't know that I'd bother reporting it - it's out there for the professor to see. Now, if I saw a student sneak into the professor's office and read the answers to tomorrow's test, then yeah, that would be something to report, since the only way for the school to know is if I were to report it.

[luuknam]

It wasn't a paper though, it was an online discussion - how do you have a discussion when you are trying to write a bibliography as you go along?

 

They're not real-time discussions. It's really not that hard to do.

[Bluegoat]

They're not real-time discussions. It's really not that hard to do.

 

So - not a discussion at all, really.

 

I still don't really see the point in treating them like a formal bibliography?  Seems like a waste of time, like workbook/check-box education.

[Lanny]

Interesting. I purchased 2 "optional" books for DD for her 10th grade English course. I suspect they will be useful to her, throughout High School and University. The title of the 2nd book is off putting, but hopefully it explains how to do things properly. Both of these books were very inexpensive, purchased Used.

 

For HIGH ENG 2A / Online course:

 

MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers, Seventh Edition. ISBN: 978-1-60329-024-1 (Optional) 

 

Plagiarism: How-Not-to Guide for Students 2009 Edition THIS ITEM IS OPTIONAL ISBN 978-0-325-02643-5

 

[EmseB]

So - not a discussion at all, really.

 

I still don't really see the point in treating them like a formal bibliography?  Seems like a waste of time, like workbook/check-box education.

 

It's a discussion board like this is a discussion board. People post on a topic, but it's also academic writing (an assignment that one is required to complete, not a discussion like you would have live in class) about the subject at hand, so topical, not philosophical (although philosophy can enter into it).  So, since it's academic, assertions must be cited and backed up, and I think for ease of the profs tracking that sort of thing they standardize it and require APA format.

 

It's like writing a mini-essay that people are required to respond to in kind. It's really the only way a "discussion" works in a class that is not live.

 

ETA: Usually you are reading a bunch of articles on the topic anyway, so if you make an assertion based on what you're reading it is not that hard to copy/paste the citation, because most journal cites now give you that information automatically in whatever format you need.

Edited August 23, 2016 by JodiSue

[luuknam]

So - not a discussion at all, really.

 

I still don't really see the point in treating them like a formal bibliography?  Seems like a waste of time, like workbook/check-box education.

 

The merit of them is debatable, but they *are* discussions... they're just spread out over a couple of days or so. The format that I've seen goes roughly like this: do your reading, look up at least x additional sources, write an opinion, citing at least x sources (with references). Then, reply to at least y of your classmates' posts (usually the class is divided up in smaller groups for this purpose). Reply to at least z of the people who replied to your original post. Etc. It's quite artificial, but in my experience there were usually 1-3 other people in my assigned group who actually were interested in having some sort of a discussion, along with a few others who didn't have any interest and did the minimum possible, including basically saying "me too" despite that being against the rules.

[Bluegoat]

It's a discussion board like this is a discussion board. People post on a topic, but it's also academic writing (an assignment that one is required to complete, not a discussion like you would have live in class) about the subject at hand, so topical, not philosophical (although philosophy can enter into it).  So, since it's academic, assertions must be cited and backed up, and I think for ease of the profs tracking that sort of thing they standardize it and require APA format.

 

It's like writing a mini-essay that people are required to respond to in kind. It's really the only way a "discussion" works in a class that is not live.

 

ETA: Usually you are reading a bunch of articles on the topic anyway, so if you make an assertion based on what you're reading it is not that hard to copy/paste the citation, because most journal cites now give you that information automatically in whatever format you need.

 

I see the idea - I don't know that I would actually consider it adaquate as a humanities discussion.  But whatever works for people I guess. 

 

As far as the bibliography though - it still seems like it would be fairly easy to copy more than intended, being sloppy, and not cut it out, being lazy. 

I made a post last night that had a unique set of references.  This morning I discovered that another student copied and pasted my references into three of his posts.  He had used one of the references in each of his posts (the same one each time--one of the textbooks for the class) but not any of the others.

 

 

Did he cite your post?  :laugh:

[luuknam]

As far as the bibliography though - it still seems like it would be fairly easy to copy more than intended, being sloppy, and not cut it out, being lazy. 

 

I'm sure it's easy to do. However, it (sloppy/lazy) is also something you shouldn't do, in either an academic or professional environment, and something that some people do on purpose as bibliography padding, which is an academic integrity issue. So, bad whichever way you look at it.

 

ETA: it's a graduate course. By grad school, students should know to proofread before submitting anything (though I'm aware many don't, having been in a bunch of mixed 4000/5000 level courses made up of almost entirely grad students).

Edited August 23, 2016 by luuknam

[EKS]

I see the idea - I don't know that I would actually consider it adaquate as a humanities discussion.  But whatever works for people I guess. 

 

It's not adequate, and I've given detailed feedback on the course evaluation forms about it, but I'm pretty sure that no one is interested in changing the courses.

 

One of the problems is that the discussions are actually attempting to serve two purposes--the first is that they want to be able to check off the box that says that classes need to have a discussion piece and the second is that they are trying to use the discussion assignments to check for whether students have read the material and understood it.  What ends up happening is that most of the students simply regurgitate the assigned reading and never go beyond it with their own research and insights.  It makes for *incredibly* boring reading, and it is also very difficult to respond to many of the posts because there is nothing of substance to respond to.

Edited August 23, 2016 by EKS

[QueenCat]

So - not a discussion at all, really.

 

I still don't really see the point in treating them like a formal bibliography?  Seems like a waste of time, like workbook/check-box education.

 

It keeps it academic. And sets high standards.

[peachskittles]

It's not adequate, and I've given detailed feedback on the course evaluation forms about it, but I'm pretty sure that no one is interested in changing the courses.

 

One of the problems is that the discussions are actually attempting to serve two purposes--the first is that they want to be able to check off the box that says that classes need to have a discussion piece and the second is that they are trying to use the discussion assignments to check for whether students have read the material and understood it.  What ends up happening is that most of the students simply regurgitate the assigned reading and never go beyond it with their own research and insights.  It makes for *incredibly* boring reading, and it is also very difficult to respond to many of the posts because there is nothing of substance to respond to.

 

This my SO's entire problem with online discussions.  No one cares to actually discuss.  I'd sit next to him as he went through trying to find someone with a unique thought, and it amazed me to see similar posts almost all the way through.  I think the worst class he had was the professor using the discussion board to do an assignment.  After you answered the questions (which were obvious answers), then you had to respond thoughtfully to 3 other people.  HOW?!?!  Everyone had the exact same answers and since the board wasn't locked for the first post, you know that some people were taking answers from other people.  I think that my SO's grades are lower just because of the discussion boards.  He can do the work, but that discussion board annoys him every single time.  He makes a choice to not do the discussion board beyond his first post some weeks.

 

It got more interesting last semester when two professors actually locked the discussion board so you couldn't see the responses until you made your first post.  Worse than people saying the same thing over and over is people not even responding because then they'd have to have their own thoughts.  A class of 20 would have only 5-10 people discussing.

 

As to the main problem, I wouldn't report it.  The professor will catch it, possibly post a message telling everyone not to do that, and deduct a few point from his discussion board grade...

[Bluegoat]

I'm sure it's easy to do. However, it (sloppy/lazy) is also something you shouldn't do, in either an academic or professional environment, and something that some people do on purpose as bibliography padding, which is an academic integrity issue. So, bad whichever way you look at it.

 

ETA: it's a graduate course. By grad school, students should know to proofread before submitting anything (though I'm aware many don't, having been in a bunch of mixed 4000/5000 level courses made up of almost entirely grad students).

 

I agree sloppy/lazy is bad, just not the same as plagerizing or pretending to have read something when you haven't.  I'd tend to give another student the benefit of the doubt as far as motivation if it wasn't quite clear.

[Bluegoat]

It keeps it academic. And sets high standards.

 

I kind of think that is precisly what it doesn't do. 

 

I don't think online classes have really figured out a good way, yet, to approximate the kind of discussion that goes on in a real academic environment in a class or even in a non-class environment.  From everything I've seen myself and heard from other people, it's become a major fly in the ointment of the promise of distance education at the university level, making those classes much less like a real university and much more like some kind of private professional/technical program.

[EKS]

I kind of think that is precisly what it doesn't do. 

 

I don't think online classes have really figured out a good way, yet, to approximate the kind of discussion that goes on in a real academic environment in a class or even in a non-class environment.  From everything I've seen myself and heard from other people, it's become a major fly in the ointment of the promise of distance education at the university level, making those classes much less like a real university and much more like some kind of private professional/technical program.

 

The first thing they should do is stop using the discussion piece to evaluate reading comprehension, except loosely.

 

I think that this forum is a great example of how discussions could be handled in these courses.  I suspect that some people would be doing all of the "talking," but how is that any different from an in person class?

[QueenCat]

I kind of think that is precisly what it doesn't do. 

 

I don't think online classes have really figured out a good way, yet, to approximate the kind of discussion that goes on in a real academic environment in a class or even in a non-class environment.  From everything I've seen myself and heard from other people, it's become a major fly in the ointment of the promise of distance education at the university level, making those classes much less like a real university and much more like some kind of private professional/technical program.

 

First, it's a real university if it's properly accredited, whether online or brick/mortar. Having done my bachelors online (and having done in-person, on campus, when younger), I disagree. In real person discussions can often leave many just listening, not talking. Online, we were required to participate. And unlike another poster, my experience was that there were often unique perspectives and good dialog. The standards were much higher than my on campus experience (at a top notch state school). Interestingly, my eldest was going on campus at the same time I was going online, at different schools. He couldn't believe how much higher the standards were for me, and he was at a decent school. Additionally, dh taught at a different online school. Very high standards and expectations. But it's not for everyone, some people do better when they are in the classroom, others online.

[Bluegoat]

The first thing they should do is stop using the discussion piece to evaluate reading comprehension, except loosely.

 

I think that this forum is a great example of how discussions could be handled in these courses.  I suspect that some people would be doing all of the "talking," but how is that any different from an in person class?

 

Yes, I'm not sure why they would not want to separate "assignments" and "discussion" which is what typicaly happens in a class.  And yes - some people don't participate in sclass discussions much, but may still get a lot out of them.  And I've never been in a class where people were marked for participating in class discussion!

 

I think that you are correct that the discussions here would be a better model. 

 

One of the valuable aspects I think of in class discussions really is that they are essentially moderated by someone really knowledgeable, so I think that would have to be a factor - I've done classes that were "peer led" and even when the materials were good and people really were invested, they tended to fall flat - people being reduced to giving whatever their personal opinions were on the topic, because no one really had enough knowledge to do anything more or lead the group to a deeper understanding. Even just a significant knowledge of the academic literature on the topic makes a difference, which might speak to the reason for including full out references in what is supposed to be a discussion.

 

My university education was very much based on a tutorial model, so I guess I just see that as very fundamental to the task of academic discussion in the humanities.

[Bluegoat]

First, it's a real university if it's properly accredited, whether online or brick/mortar. Having done my bachelors online (and having done in-person, on campus, when younger), I disagree. In real person discussions can often leave many just listening, not talking. Online, we were required to participate. And unlike another poster, my experience was that there were often unique perspectives and good dialog. The standards were much higher than my on campus experience (at a top notch state school). Interestingly, my eldest was going on campus at the same time I was going online, at different schools. He couldn't believe how much higher the standards were for me, and he was at a decent school. Additionally, dh taught at a different online school. Very high standards and expectations. But it's not for everyone, some people do better when they are in the classroom, others online.

 

I don't think "real" university education has anything essentially to do with being online or not, it has to do with the type of education.  A professional program might be taught at a university but that doesn't really change its essential charachter.

[QueenCat]

Yes, I'm not sure why they would not want to separate "assignments" and "discussion" which is what typicaly happens in a class.  And yes - some people don't participate in sclass discussions much, but may still get a lot out of them.  And I've never been in a class where people were marked for participating in class discussion!

 

 

I agree. Our discussion board posts and responses were separate from our assignments. The discussions were only meant to replace the in-person discussions had in a regular classroom. They didn't replace essays, papers, etc.

[QueenCat]

I don't think "real" university education has anything essentially to do with being online or not, it has to do with the type of education.  A professional program might be taught at a university but that doesn't really change its essential charachter.

 

I don't either, but you are the one that initially used the term "real university", not me.

[Bluegoat]

I don't either, but you are the one that initially used the term "real university", not me.

 

Yes, and by real, I didn't mean brick and mortar particularly.

 

However, I do think that online university programs seem to have some challenges with replacing the type of learning that happens in an academic university program.  They seem somewhat to gravitate to something that looks to me much more like professional programs or even like private career colleges. So - I would say if that is happening, it might be an accredited university, but brick and mortar or not, it is not giving a real academic education.

 

I suspect some of that has to do with how they hire and pay the teaching staff, but I also think a significant barrier, at least in the humanities, is that it tends to make it difficult to use the kind of model of a knowledgeable expert who presents a text or argument and then leads a group of students through it over the course of a lecture/discussion.  I've seen it done well where the lecture/discussion were integrated, and where the lecture happens first and the discussion afterwards, but working through the argument and doing so with the expert and often with other students, with real back and forth and thinking in the moment, was always an integral aspect of the process. 

 

This is why I was so surprised to see that there would be a requirement to include bibliographic references during class discussion, I just cannot imagine for the life of me having that kind of discussion at the same time as sorting out references, or why it would possibly be useful to do so. 

Edited August 23, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Crimson Wife]

 

  they are trying to use the discussion assignments to check for whether students have read the material and understood it.  What ends up happening is that most of the students simply regurgitate the assigned reading and never go beyond it with their own research and insights.  It makes for *incredibly* boring reading, and it is also very difficult to respond to many of the posts because there is nothing of substance to respond to.

 

Yep!

 

[Crimson Wife]

 

It got more interesting last semester when two professors actually locked the discussion board so you couldn't see the responses until you made your first post.  Worse than people saying the same thing over and over is people not even responding because then they'd have to have their own thoughts.  A class of 20 would have only 5-10 people discussing.

 

I actually dislike this policy because I don't want to say the same thing that lots of previous posters have already said. So what I end up doing is putting a "filler post" (sometimes literally typing "This is a placeholder") so that I can read the previous posts & come up with something novel to say.

 

[luuknam]

And I've never been in a class where people were marked for participating in class discussion!

 

They definitely exist.

[Liz CA]

Not sure if it qualifies as plagiarism but he definitely cheated intentionally - from how I understand it.

I probably would not report it in this instance but if something I wrote as an essay, thesis or dissertation was copied, I would most definitely report.

I suppose I would hope the instructor would pay close enough attention to see that he has no in-text citations matching the references. Was there a minimum number of references required for the assignment and he fell short and copied yours?

Edited August 23, 2016 by Liz CA

[QueenCat]

  And I've never been in a class where people were marked for participating in class discussion!

 

 

It's part of the class participation portion of the grade for many. Dh taught both in person and online. For in person, he kept his attendance list by his podium. He didn't stay at his podium all the time, as he likes to move around, but he would put little tallies by people's names to help him remember who participated. Basically, if you were there and you stayed for the entire class, you got 8/10 for the class period. If you left early, he took a point or two off, depending on whether it was before or after the break. If you participated by actually speaking during class, you got the full 10/10. He then averaged those grades for one class participation grade for the semester. It was 10% of your semester grade. He modeled this off of what was the norm at the university he taught at.

[EmseB]

I agree. Our discussion board posts and responses were separate from our assignments. The discussions were only meant to replace the in-person discussions had in a regular classroom. They didn't replace essays, papers, etc.

I don't know of any online class that didn't also have papers and essays and tests to take along with the discussion board assignments.

 

I don't think the discussion board thing is ideal, but neither is an in-person class with or without participation grades. Having experienced all three, they all have shortcomings in my opinion.

 

What I really gave bad feedback on were the required group projects. Don't even get me started on those.

 

For the OP, I might send an email to the professor saying you noticed it and weren't sure if it was an academic violation, but it didn't sit right with you. Then it would be up to them to investigate on their own and decide and might give the prof an opportunity to look at that student's papers a little more closely. My bet would be that if he's copying your references, that's not the only thing he's copying.

 

Alternatively you could email the other student directly and tell him you noticed he made a mistake and you didn't think it was a violation, but you didn't want him to get in trouble just for forgetting to delete or reformat something he was working on.

[EmseB]

And I've never been in a class where people were marked for participating in class discussion!

Oh my goodness it is annoying. When you know you have to come up with something to say or you won't get points for the day it makes for very stilted and reptitive conversation.

 

And when it's not graded, there's usually a few people who dominate and people who don't understand the material just say nothing.

[QueenCat]

Oh my goodness it is annoying. When you know you have to come up with something to say or you won't get points for the day it makes for very stilted and reptitive conversation.

 

And when it's not graded, there's usually a few people who dominate and people who don't understand the material just say nothing.

 

hmm... the way dh did it, the students didn't really see the tally-making and such. It just gave him a reminder for himself. And if someone regularly participated but had an off day or two, or if there was less to discuss, your grade wasn't going to go down.