hornblower Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 No, I'm saying imagine you telling your son, "you should be proud of finishing the 4th grade considering how unsuccessful your family is otherwise." The idea of being "proud" may seem uplifting, but "considering your skin color is a big disadvantage" seems counterproductive, especially for young kids who have not actually experienced the historical struggles and may, hopefully, be spared from at least some of them. I'm not sure but I think you might be making the "just ignore the disadvantages you face" because ignoring them will make them go away argument. They're not historical struggles. They're struggles and disadvantages and prejudices today. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I'm not sure but I think you might be making the "just ignore the disadvantages you face" because ignoring them will make them go away argument. They're not historical struggles. They're struggles and disadvantages and prejudices today. I don't know. My kids have a list of disadvantages, and I don't ever tell them they should be proud of achieving despite their disadvantages. Except I have said my very petite 9yo should not feel bad that she is only the second fastest runner in the 5th grade. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I don't know. My kids have a list of disadvantages, and I don't ever tell them they should be proud of achieving despite their disadvantages. Except I have said my very petite 9yo should not feel bad that she is only the second fastest runner in the 5th grade. :p I always tell my kids I'm proud of them for working hard. Just a few minutes ago, one handed me a "meh" paper with lots of potential to be tapped tomorrow, and I told her she should be proud of it (without saying "because you kind of stink at writing and this is better than most of your previous work." She knows that part.) Hard work is hard work, whatever your starting point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I don't know. My kids have a list of disadvantages, and I don't ever tell them they should be proud of achieving despite their disadvantages. Except I have said my very petite 9yo should not feel bad that she is only the second fastest runner in the 5th grade. :p I think there are two different things here: pride in an unusually difficult accomplishment and pride in an identity. If someone overcomes a bigger challenge than 'normal', because they're starting from a different position, they should be proud. Underprivileged groups face bigger challenges and so their successes are harder earned. The pride of identity comes as a response to the long and continuing history of disparaging comments made about various races and ethnicities of people. You get people like Steve King saying they don't see any other groups contributing to civilization. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/18/rep-steve-king-wonders-what-sub-groups-besides-whites-made-contributions-to-civilization/?postshare=2171468886091289&tid=ss_tw My nephews are adopted from 2 different countries and there's this issue of how you handle their 'identity' and how to teach them about their origins. One of my nephews is also of mixed race heritage. I do think there's an important component of explaining who they are, where they're from, what their cultural and ethnic background is about. That is a part of understanding and loving who they are. It's pride in the sense of understanding that your people - even if they're not people anyone here knows about - had a culture and values and a history which is rich and meaningful. Indigenous people in Canada for ex. have suffered from lack of understanding and pride in their history and culture. We had an entire generations here who were essentially told your culture and history are stupid and meaningless and you should forget about them and just 'be like us' because the default thinking is white Christian culture. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 OK but I don't think you have to be severely trodden upon in order to be allowed to feel pride in your identity. I think pride in one's identity is somewhat natural. Yes, for some people/groups it has been beaten down, but that does not mean nobody else is entitled to feel pride in their identity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 OK but I don't think you have to be severely trodden upon in order to be allowed to feel pride in your identity. I think pride in one's identity is somewhat natural. Yes, for some people/groups it has been beaten down, but that does not mean nobody else is entitled to feel pride in their identity. nm. I don't think it's fruitful to continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) I'm not sure but I think you might be making the "just ignore the disadvantages you face" because ignoring them will make them go away argument. They're not historical struggles. They're struggles and disadvantages and prejudices today. Exactly. My great-great grandparents came here from Italy and Ireland and faced discrimination (especially my great-great grandfather who never learned English). So did my great-grandparents who were (one) a teen and (one) a young adult when they arrived. Even my grandparents experienced prejudice for being children of immigrants. But me, a third-generation American of Irish-Italian descent? People look at me and simply see an American white woman. I have never experienced what my ancestors have or what people of color have. There are people of color whose families have been here generations longer than mine, yet I have advantages they don't simply by virtue of my skin color. You get people like Steve King saying they don't see any other groups contributing to civilization. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/18/rep-steve-king-wonders-what-sub-groups-besides-whites-made-contributions-to-civilization/?postshare=2171468886091289&tid=ss_tw Yeah, those people some politicians want to kick out, didn't they give us the concept of zero? No contributions indeed. :001_rolleyes: Edited July 19, 2016 by Lady Florida. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 No, I'm saying imagine you telling your son, "you should be proud of finishing the 4th grade considering how unsuccessful your family is otherwise." The idea of being "proud" may seem uplifting, but "considering your skin color is a big disadvantage" seems counterproductive, especially for young kids who have not actually experienced the historical struggles and may, hopefully, be spared from at least some of them. No I would not say that in that situation (probably), but if my kid finished the 4th grade despite it being extremely difficult for him to do so then yes I would be proud. I do think I get what you are getting at. That... why would this be automatic just because of skin color? Your kids may have that factor, but then they also have a lot of advantages that many people in general do not have. So does that make them quite in the same disadvantaged category? Probably not. And I do think I understand why some white people are frustrated by feeling as if they don't have any sort of special advantage because from their POV and life experiences they probably can't imagine it. It's definitely complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SporkUK Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) White, rather than heritage groups like Irish and such, was specifically created as an identity to oppress people and historically and presently groups gain access to the White identifier by the oppression of others. Prior to its wide usage, riots among European indentured and poor alongside the enslaved of other groups was very common - a bit of social privilege was dangled by the elites in return policing and being responsible for the behaviour of those they were then given power over and was grown and still maintained through the systems of law, education, media, and so on. The KKK and BNP and similar groups still openly recruit with the White Pride slogan and related rhetoric [and there is an anti-Neo Nazi movement called Good Night White Pride]. I find ignoring the history and current meaning of White pride and comparing it in any way to Black pride movements or LGBT+ pride movements illogical. Living within social systems that continue to dehumanize us based on these chances, being able to openly and happily call ourselves what we are is as much self care and survival as it is a push for recognition and social change. I can't recall calling myself proud, but I have had others say how happy and proud they are of how open I am to discuss who I am, that my 'pride' uplifts them by making louder what is often ignored. I am openly mixed race from a family that *hated* being mixed race - they were proud to be white passing - I had my hair bleached blonde as a child and had excuses made for my darker skin and praised when I became ill which led to me being pale and fighting that self hate ground into me by my family and wider society is an ongoing challenge. I am openly disabled. I am openly a person with PTSD that survived child abuse and neglect. I am openly bisexual and polyamorous and genderfluid. I am all of these by chance, but I choose to be open and help to build communities and support the needs and voices that are systematically told from birth that we are less human, told we shouldn't exist, told we shouldn't have kids, told to be quiet and be grateful that 'normal' people allow us to live. I've been told all of these for as long as I can remember, some of my earliest memories are being told what a burden I and people like me are and people still say these things so maybe I can forgive myself in fighting all of that to be happy in all the things that make me me and being part of a movement to help others build support so that others don't have to fight for that even if it is called pride. Edited July 19, 2016 by SporkUK 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 SporkUK, thank you so much for sharing that. I'm sorry for how you've been hurt. Thank you for being willing to talk about it. There is much in you to be proud of. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacharsis Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) Someone recently told me that I should be proud to be white. This kind of thing has always puzzled me. I'm not *ashamed* to be white, but I can honestly say I'm not proud. I have no negative feelings about it. I just find hard to understand why id be proud of something that just happened to me. It seems to be a fairly common sentiment in some circles. Please help me understand. I can talk from an American perspective... "American" is sort of seen as a placeholder identity within the country; in the words of Teddy Roosevelt, America is a country of "hyphenated Americans". There is also a very old subculture within American identity that believes in "the melting pot"; an idea that identity should be based on shared belief rather than shared ancestry. Traditionally, this shared belief was the unique culture of an individual state. Someone was a Virginian-American, regardless of ancestry, rather than a Scottish-American in Virgina. However, those who most strongly promoted state identity as a thing were also generally on the wrong side of the Civil War; the victors were New England Federalists, who saw states as administrative units rather than sovereign cultures. With the nationalization of media and commerce, many of the unique parts of the states started going away anyhow; everyone watched the same national TV, shopped at the same national stores, etc. America has always had rootless Americans, primarily those whose roots were taken away from them through slavery. Moving into the 20th century, they were joined by those who were rootless because of the choices of their ancestors -- they had renounced their ties to the Old World in favor of a melting pot ethos, but political changes had taken away their ties to the New World, where being a Virginian or a Georgian didn't mean anything anymore. People struggling with this grasp at what they can. Some try to reach out again to the Old World, even if the connection is tenuous. Ireland's tourism industry is largely supported by those they nickname derisively "Plastic Paddies" -- those with distant Irish ancestry who are desperate for a connection that those living in Ireland don't believe exists anymore. Some reach out to an imaginary past that they believe is purchasable. Maybe they focus on cowboy culture as seen in the movies, or preppie culture as glamorized by Ralph Lauren. Some focus on race, maybe seeing the positive impact that Black Power had on uniting the African-American community. I guess the strange thing is how few people focus on America itself. I wonder if maybe this is due to bitterness over Cold War propaganda -- in an effort to protect against the criticisms of the Communists, America was presented as a place very different than it actually was; maybe this lead some to decide that the reality of America was no more worthwhile than the fantasy, and to go looking elsewhere for roots... Edited July 19, 2016 by Anacharsis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I don't get the pride concept in general. Deadly sin thing and all that. But I see no reason for any skin color to be especially a point of pride. Is there anything that isn't up to chance in the end? It's all bull we tell ourselves to make us feel we have more control than we do and to make us feel we can keep from being like __ other category, or at least kid ourselves that we are better than ___ others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 I can't imagine being proud or non-proud of being white skinned. I have the privilege of never giving it a thought. Amen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 Using the word proud in the way is very southern I think. It really just means very happy with a situation or outcome in most cases. I am proud to be here. I am proud of my mom's biscuits. So being proud to be white means... I'm happy that I'm white & not any other "kind"? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 I do generally find pride a weird thing. Although it's possible to go a bit too far the other way, where you hold yourself responsible for everything that goes wrong but feel that the good things have nothing much to do with you. People often say about the kids 'You must be proud' and my response is to think why ? whatever good they are doing is probably in spite of me, not because of me, lol. I can't imagine being proud or non-proud of being white skinned. I have the privilege of never giving it a thought. When I encounter people who don't know anything about Slovakia (or Czechoslovakia) I might feel some pride as I educate them on some of the good things/people that come from there. That's about as close to Slovak-pride as I get. It's short-lived. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daria Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I think that "Pride" movements, like Gay Pride or Black Pride, come about because historically people have been taught that they should be ashamed about being gay or black. So, the pride movement seeks to counteract that. There is no historical trend of people being told they should be ashamed for being white. Another group that continues to be told that they are less than is individuals with intellectual disabilities. As teacher of students with ID, I absolutely teach my kids that they should feel good about who they are, and hold their heads high. When our school began to include students with intellectual disabilities, we planned activities to communicate to the entire student body that people with intellectual disabilities are valued members of our community, and that we should be proud to be part of an inclusive community. For example, we started an assembly with a beautiful poem with Down syndrome, and called the students' attention to the author's disability, by mentioning it in the introduction, and by projecting her photo during the screen. On the other hand, it would be highly offensive if we started a "normal intelligence pride" movement at our school. Our school certainly studies and celebrates people who don't meet criteria for intellectual disability. They do it all the time, but I can't imagine starting an assembly with a quotation by Dr. King and taking a moment to point out to the whole student body that this was a man without an intellectual disability. Because our students without disabilities just don't need that blatant of a message that "it's OK not to have an intellectual disability", and it would almost undoubtedly contribute to the idea that it is better to be a person without an intellectual disability than a person with one. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) Why do we give extra consideration and boosts to girls in some circumstances? For a similar reason. And there are plenty of girls and women who hate that reverse discrimination too. Edited July 20, 2016 by luuknam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 So being proud to be white means... I'm happy that I'm white & not any other "kind"? Please note I didn't use the expression.....I was just explaining a southern view of the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) N/m. Edited July 20, 2016 by luuknam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 And there are plenty of girls and women who hate that reverse discrimination too. That there are special programs and groups to help girls succeed where they are underrepresented or in things they have been shamed for being interested in at all in the past is NOT discriminatory to my sons. The situation my niece faces as a young girl of color is just not the same thing as my sons face. No one doubts if my son has earned his place in competitive enrichment programs or a program for gifted kids or thinks he's less of a boy for being way into math. My niece has had so many assume she doesn't belong or is a "weird girl" for enjoying certain hobbies and subjects. Plus, no one sexually harasses my 13 year old son. I can't say the same for my niece when she was 13 or now (at all of 14). I'm glad she gets to participate in programs that help her be more comfortable and confident and where she gets to meet other girls like herself. It's not like the world doesn't have plenty of other options and spaces for boys. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 That there are special programs and groups to help girls succeed where they are underrepresented or in things they have been shamed for being interested in at all in the past is NOT discriminatory to my sons. I never said it was discrimination to your sons. However, to name one example, all the girls I met major in electrical engineering in a certain university had a scholarship. Every single one of them. Most of the guys did not. So, did I get my scholarship because I was accomplished, or because I was female? I'll never know, but now I get to doubt myself in a way that the boys with the scholarships did not get to doubt themselves. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) I never said it was discrimination to your sons. However, to name one example, all the girls I met major in electrical engineering in a certain university had a scholarship. Every single one of them. Most of the guys did not. So, did I get my scholarship because I was accomplished, or because I was female? I'll never know, but now I get to doubt myself in a way that the boys with the scholarships did not get to doubt themselves.All I was saying was that there are actual reasons that programs to boost girls exist. It is absolutely NOT "reverse discrimination" to help girls out but not have the exact same program for boys. It is discrimnatory to pretend that girls don't still face discrimination that boys generally do not. I don't know how many women were in your electrical engineering program but I've been the only woman in classes for a program that did not, at that time or college, have many women enrolled for that degree. I was also treated like crap in that program by a highly sexist professor. He literally told me he thought I wasn't smart enough for the program (despite the fact that I was leading the class in objective test questions while he marked me down on subjective tests and essays) I thought I might be overreacting or even imagining things but the more I listened to what other women had experienced from him, it was clear I was far from the first. And the tenured jerky hack is still there and the department, knowing what he was like had to change my grade because people in the honors program on the strength of their writing and who are pulling close to 100% on the objective questions don't generally write only C and D essays, lol. Scholarships are given for so many reasons besides merit and I don't think you need to doubt yourself because every male student (in a degree program that used to literally or all but bar women) did not have a scholarship. With fewer women in the program it could be that donors had endowed enough scholarships which they restricted to women that every woman got one merely because there weren't a lot of women accepted to or applying to the program. Donors restrict their funding to all sorts of things. Nursing students from southern Washington who have parents who didn't go to college. Greek students majoring in the humanities. Students who grew up in a rural area and plan to major in Communications. Edited July 20, 2016 by LucyStoner 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I think people use the word in different ways. But overall, I am not keen on it as a descriptor for that kind of thing - I don't really like it for race, at all, or ethnicity, whatever. I do understand what people are trying to get at when they use that language and I don't think it's wholly bad, but I also think it isn't the best use of languague. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 Please note I didn't use the expression.....I was just explaining a southern view of the word. Oh, absolutely. I'm not trying to accuse you. I just read people acting as if your definition changes the meaning of "white pride" into something that maybe isn't as bad. And I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing much difference at all, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I never said it was discrimination to your sons. However, to name one example, all the girls I met major in electrical engineering in a certain university had a scholarship. Every single one of them. Most of the guys did not. So, did I get my scholarship because I was accomplished, or because I was female? I'll never know, but now I get to doubt myself in a way that the boys with the scholarships did not get to doubt themselves. What does your doubt mean to you, though? You're talking about being given financial incentive to enter a male-dominated field. Not about getting extra grade points or an intellectual "pass" because of a negative assumption of ability. Typically, these types of awards are meant to encourage women to overcome the statistics. Not to minimize their achievement. I can tell you that I'm going to encourage my daughter to look for scholarships and other opportunities that seek to empower female firefighters. Because I know that she DOES have to work harder, smarter, and more aware than her male counterparts, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with accepting offers to relieve some burden in some areas when she must unfairly carry so much in others. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 What does your doubt mean to you, though? You're talking about being given financial incentive to enter a male-dominated field. Not about getting extra grade points or an intellectual "pass" because of a negative assumption of ability. Typically, these types of awards are meant to encourage women to overcome the statistics. Not to minimize their achievement. I can tell you that I'm going to encourage my daughter to look for scholarships and other opportunities that seek to empower female firefighters. Because I know that she DOES have to work harder, smarter, and more aware than her male counterparts, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with accepting offers to relieve some burden in some areas when she must unfairly carry so much in others. I love free money just as much as anyone else, but when a scholarship is allegedly about merit, and somehow 100% of the 5% of students that are female get one, and 5% of the 95% of the students that are male get one (estimate - I did not ask every single male student), it starts to feel like maybe it's not just about merit after all. So, I think there's a difference between scholarships that are designed to empower women, and scholarships that are supposed to be merit only. My only complaint about an EE prof is the one who told the males in the class to go to Society of Women Engineers events and to network with the females, because females are good at socializing and networking and all that kind of stuff, which is important because in the workplace teamwork is important and all that kind of stuff. Which was obviously intended to be positive, but as someone with lousy social skills, the blanket statement that females have good social skills kind of sucked (and, stereotyping is stereotyping, whether it's positive or negative or w/e). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Yeah, I dislike that I can sign my kids up for scholarships etc, and they can qualify our school district for more $$, etc., just because of their biological origin. A lot of people have no problem taking advantage of that whether they need it or not. It takes away from others who need it more IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I love free money just as much as anyone else, but when a scholarship is allegedly about merit, and somehow 100% of the 5% of students that are female get one, and 5% of the 95% of the students that are male get one (estimate - I did not ask every single male student), it starts to feel like maybe it's not just about merit after all. I didn't realize this was disguised as a merit scholarship. I know my writing ability isn't so hot today, so maybe my reading comprehension is lacking, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Sorry, Stephanie. You're wrong. I don't think it can be explained any better than the way you worded it. Awww, thank you. :blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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