S/O: College views, expectations

[Bluegoat]

I have always expected all my kids to go to college and also professional or grad school after a 4 year degree. None have LDs or any other intellectual handicaps, are all high IQ, and both their parents have advanced degrees and all their grandparents had at least 4 year degrees (two of them had advanced degrees as well). So, I don't think that for my kids, those are unusual expectations, especially given that they also have parents (us) who are willing and able to support them through at least 4 year degrees. 

 

If any of my kids had special needs or disabilities that made academic achievement unrealistic, then obviously, I'd adjust my expectations. So far, my expectations still seem realistic for all my kids. I can't control their adult behaviors, so certainly I allow for the possibility that they won't all achieve what I expect, but I certainly hope so.

 

One thing that has evolved for me is that I very much expect them to use college (+/- grad school) as a prequel to a reliable, reasonably well paid career. Unfortunately, college has become *so* expensive that I don't think the expectation I grew up with (go to college, period . . . what you major in is totally up to you . . . follow your bliss . . .) is realistic these days unless you (parents) can afford to pay AGAIN for some professional re-education after they graduate and find they can't get a decent job/career with whatever blissful 4 year degree they started with. I don't want to be supporting my 25+year olds through an entire second education, so I expect them to use their college time to work towards a career.

I know this was a few days ago, but I keep thinking about this comment.

 

 

Why would you expect only people who were academically incapable would want to be in a career that required something other than university? 

 

I know many people who could easily have gone to university, but went to do other things instead, trade school, forestry school, apprenticeships.  I am not sure why that would be a lesser achievement - they are good at their jobs because they are smart, they also happen to like working with their hands or outdoors or working independently, or rural life.  They didn't settle for something because they were stupid or lazy.

[Anne in CA]

I have adjusted my thinking about college a great deal. I just can't wrap my head around how long it is taking my second child to finish his last little bit. I'm not surprised my oldest didn't finish, she is really determined not to grow up (although doing better this year than I ever thought possible!) and my youngest really wants to go to film school, not regular college. Although she says she may go to college if she can do some duel enrollment in the next two years so that it doesn't take forever.

 

Further adjusting my college reality are all the women on the board who went to college and still had to start a career completely over when their kids are grown. What point is a degree if it isn't a lifelong help? I do understand that college years form who people are, but I think it's a huge amount of money when it won't pay off monetarily later.

[creekland]

Why would you expect only people who were academically incapable would want to be in a career that required something other than university? 

 

I know many people who could easily have gone to university, but went to do other things instead, trade school, forestry school, apprenticeships.  I am not sure why that would be a lesser achievement - they are good at their jobs because they are smart, they also happen to like working with their hands or outdoors or working independently, or rural life.  They didn't settle for something because they were stupid or lazy.

 

Not who you were responding to so their views may differ, but for us "college" is the end of education for those who are capable.

 

I have no qualms at all with any of my kids never using their degree.  Youngest might not TBH.  I just want them to have the experience and the education level of b&m college (academics and more).  If at any point they need that piece of paper they will have it.  The education they will never lose (short of medical disorder).

 

Youngest wasn't sure he was on board with that after high school.  Some of the things he really likes don't necessarily require a degree.  However, he's capable so we wanted him to go.  He got started (rocky start actually) and is loving it now.  We just talked last night.  He has no regrets at this time at all - and he still might not really use his degree.  He has learned a ton though - very much expanded his horizons in all sorts of ways though his classes, his contacts (students, professors, and retired members of the community who share their experiences at his college), his trip to Greece, and just giving his mind a chance to see all that is out there.

 

One can't know what they don't know and there's only so much one can learn out of a book.  College - done correctly by the student - offers so much more.  Who cares if they use the degree?  They keep the education.  ;)

 

All that said, some kids are not cut out for college at all.  That's ok.  They are no less as people.  What is important for success in life is that they find their niche.

 

But our family's ideal is 4 years of college as the (first) end point, not high school.

 

Looking at it overall... one could argue that many don't need anything beyond grade school to do some jobs so why not quit there (and some do), but I think high school exposes one to so much more (when their brain is ready for it, so can take it in).  College is the same way to us.

[Bluegoat]

Not who you were responding to so their views may differ, but for us "college" is the end of education for those who are capable.

 

I have no qualms at all with any of my kids never using their degree.  Youngest might not TBH.  I just want them to have the experience and the education level of b&m college (academics and more).  If at any point they need that piece of paper they will have it.  The education they will never lose (short of medical disorder).

 

Youngest wasn't sure he was on board with that after high school.  Some of the things he really likes don't necessarily require a degree.  However, he's capable so we wanted him to go.  He got started (rocky start actually) and is loving it now.  We just talked last night.  He has no regrets at this time at all - and he still might not really use his degree.  He has learned a ton though - very much expanded his horizons in all sorts of ways though his classes, his contacts (students, professors, and retired members of the community who share their experiences at his college), his trip to Greece, and just giving his mind a chance to see all that is out there.

 

One can't know what they don't know and there's only so much one can learn out of a book.  College - done correctly by the student - offers so much more.  Who cares if they use the degree?  They keep the education.   ;)

 

All that said, some kids are not cut out for college at all.  That's ok.  They are no less as people.  What is important for success in life is that they find their niche.

 

But our family's ideal is 4 years of college as the (first) end point, not high school.

 

Looking at it overall... one could argue that many don't need anything beyond grade school to do some jobs so why not quit there (and some do), but I think high school exposes one to so much more (when their brain is ready for it, so can take it in).  College is the same way to us.

 

 

That may well be what she is thinking, but I still don't see the logic, because if I replace the word "college" and "degree" in your paragraph, nothing else changes.

 

So, you might have a history degree, say, but you now do not have a welder's ticket.  You know a lot about linguistics, which you can't lose, but you don't know a lot obout silvaculture, or building guitars, that you also can't lose.

[creekland]

That may well be what she is thinking, but I still don't see the logic, because if I replace the word "college" and "degree" in your paragraph, nothing else changes.

 

So, you might have a history degree, say, but you now do not have a welder's ticket.  You know a lot about linguistics, which you can't lose, but you don't know a lot obout silvaculture, or building guitars, that you also can't lose.

 

There's no reason one can't do both.  Plenty of kids - even college bound kids - take welding classes at our high school.  My oldest did a woodworking class while homeschooling.  My youngest did Wood 1 in ps high school too.

 

My middle son has learned to solder and is making his own music machines for his research projects at college.

 

My oldest learned a lot about wiring while on mission trips and ended up getting his work study at college in their AV dept.  They literally hunted him down at orientation once they found out about his prior experience.  He continued to learn more and has helped several places set up sound systems for whole churches/businesses etc even though it has nothing to do with his business degree (which he uses at his management job).  He can trouble shoot many, many electrical things.

 

Like anything else with education, it's not an either/or deal - or doesn't have to be.

 

Some want theirs to finish 8th grade, some high school, some college.  We're in that last category.

 

My grandmother on my dad's side only finished through 4th grade before she had to quit school and work full time and she never quit working until her death in her 80s (though the jobs changed).  She's the one who started the "aim for college" tradition on that side of the family.  It wasn't to have her kids avoid work.  It was to give them a wide, strong, education - the type she always wanted, but missed out on.  

[FaithManor]

I agree with Creekland. Broad education is good.

 

Our kids are college bound but know how to swing an axe, stock a wood boiler, solder, do household maintenance, change the oil in the car, drywall...due to our self-renovated house project, they know how to drywall, LOL. They work with farm animals, and can repair fences. They've worked in my dad's heating business. We didn't restrict their experiences and education to only that which was traditional college bound material.

[Caviar]

Bluegoat, I've appreciated all your comments!  Thanks for responding to M-- for me! :hurray:  When my 11 yo told me she had no interest in going to college, I simply said that that was fine.  I'm not discouraging her from going, but I'm also not heaping upon her young shoulders a huge expectation that going to college is my goal for her, or that it should be her goal for herself.  There's simply way too much emphasis put on getting college degrees.  Here's an article I'd like to share with everyone following this.  http://zakslayback.com/2015/12/02/its-time-we-admit-the-degree-is-speculation-not-investment/

[Bluegoat]

There's no reason one can't do both.  Plenty of kids - even college bound kids - take welding classes at our high school.  My oldest did a woodworking class while homeschooling.  My youngest did Wood 1 in ps high school too.

 

My middle son has learned to solder and is making his own music machines for his research projects at college.

 

My oldest learned a lot about wiring while on mission trips and ended up getting his work study at college in their AV dept.  They literally hunted him down at orientation once they found out about his prior experience.  He continued to learn more and has helped several places set up sound systems for whole churches/businesses etc even though it has nothing to do with his business degree (which he uses at his management job).  He can trouble shoot many, many electrical things.

 

Like anything else with education, it's not an either/or deal - or doesn't have to be.

 

Some want theirs to finish 8th grade, some high school, some college.  We're in that last category.

 

My grandmother on my dad's side only finished through 4th grade before she had to quit school and work full time and she never quit working until her death in her 80s (though the jobs changed).  She's the one who started the "aim for college" tradition on that side of the family.  It wasn't to have her kids avoid work.  It was to give them a wide, strong, education - the type she always wanted, but missed out on.  

 

 

I agree with Creekland. Broad education is good.

 

Our kids are college bound but know how to swing an axe, stock a wood boiler, solder, do household maintenance, change the oil in the car, drywall...due to our self-renovated house project, they know how to drywall, LOL. They work with farm animals, and can repair fences. They've worked in my dad's heating business. We didn't restrict their experiences and education to only that which was traditional college bound material.

 

I think this is still much more tenuous than you are both suggesting.  And it doesn't address the idea in the comment I was interested in that said that something "less than" university was ok for a child that had something like an LD, but not for one that didn't.  I don't consider undergraduate education in math or fine art to be a "higher" kind of knowledge than the kinds found in other educational avenues.

 

Part of this is probably because I think many very intelligent people are not really interested in the kind of study that happens, or should happen, at the university level, they are interested in other kinds of knowledge.  So, why the one before the other?  I think it's a little naïve to think that four years of post-secondary school will not in many cases set the direction that students take - they might go on to other things, but it is not particularly easier than people who do some other training and then want to go on to university. 

 

As parents who want to see your kids go to university, if they want to have other training after that, are you prepared and willing to help pay in the same way?

 

And realistically, the majority of university graduates I know don't actually do that kind of thinking in university, anyway, and their parents don't seem to make that distinction even when it is obvious.  Someone who goes to university and does a nursing degree or business degree is in a vocational program in just the same way someone who learns to weld is, but I suspect that most parents who want their kids to have an undergraduate degree for its own sake would not discourage those.  There are many kids, very bright, who can get a history or biology degree, but still will not be thinking about history or biology like an academic.  A lot of institutions don't even make that an easy thing to do, in part because so many people are there without any interest in that sort of thing.

[Bluegoat]

I guess this is the thing for me - I think broad knowledge is great, everyone should be able to cook an edible meal or sew on a button or fix a leaky faucet.  But I can't imagine insisting anyone needs, as basic knowledge, post-secondary level education in any of those things, much less all of them, and many smart people might well be very unsuited to any number of them.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I'm not a planner. I believe they'll do what they have the drive to do. So far a private college graduated elm. Teacher ( stellar grades and scholarships but chose her low paying passion), state Uni.with scholarship but joined the guard and works as an EMT over using his degree, #3 got full ride state Uni. Scholarship and will hopefully actually use his degree 😀, #4 is strongly considering a 2 year degree in physical therapy asst. over 7 years of school to be a PT. none of those would be my dreams for them but I'll be content if they're content.

[creekland]

Part of this is probably because I think many very intelligent people are not really interested in the kind of study that happens, or should happen, at the university level, they are interested in other kinds of knowledge.  

 

Well, like I said before, one can argue that many people only need an education up to about 4th or 8th grade too.  There are certainly students who'd rather not go on and finish high school even though they could do it.

 

For us, the baseline expected is college degree, not 4th, 8th, or 12th grade.  Hubby and I have BTDT and enjoy the depth of thinking at that level and feel it helps develop many good things in (most) people's lives.  

 

What else can I say?  We treasure education.  Some treasure sports or crafts or cooking or whatever.  We treasure education.  I don't give a hoot if many people go to college and don't take advantage of what is there solely wanting the piece of paper.  That's not how we do it.  I also don't care if others don't see the need for college (or high school).  We simply don't share their views.  Within our family, we set our family ideas and plans.  That's what parents do.

 

In the meantime, mine also know quite a bit about taking care of the farm, fixing fences or other equipment, helping their dad with civil engineering field work, laundry, organizing events, basic cooking, gardening, and oodles of other stuff.  They have all turned out to be leaders in their worlds.

 

For some, once they are done with high school they figure out what they are doing.  For mine, once they are finished with college they figure out what they are doing.  They may or may not need their degree.  It all depends upon what path they choose.   ;)

 

(Yes, they might figure it out before the end of high school/college respectively.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

The reason I have provided a liberal arts college prep (and actual college level teaching in the later years at least in the humanities) is so that even if my kids don't decide to go to college, they will still have that breadth of educational understanding. 

[hornblower]

Further adjusting my college reality are all the women on the board who went to college and still had to start a career completely over when their kids are grown. What point is a degree if it isn't a lifelong help? I do understand that college years form who people are, but I think it's a huge amount of money when it won't pay off monetarily later.

 

? I don't understand that.

 

IMO, it IS a lifelong help, even if you completely disregard the actual education, the experience, the discipline to finish the darned thing, the people I met while doing it, the experiences I had there, the job I got while still working on my degree, which was directly related & which gave me a good career for the years before I decided to stay home & teach my kids.

 

I'm one of the people considering a career switch in the next couple years but my old B.A. is still helping me & will continue to help me if I decide to go back to school.  For one thing, I can go directly into grad school if I want. 

[Bluegoat]

As far as going out of the workforce - I do think it's wise to consider if that is likely, and whether that changes your goals and needs in terms of education.  It might make no difference, but it could, and that might suggest a different path that would offer more flexibilty.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ds just got a job in his intended field yesterday.  I graduated him from high school last week.  He is hoping to keep this job part time through college so that he will have both the degree and experience when he is done. 

[Arcadia]

Further adjusting my college reality are all the women on the board who went to college and still had to start a career completely over when their kids are grown. What point is a degree if it isn't a lifelong help? I do understand that college years form who people are, but I think it's a huge amount of money when it won't pay off monetarily later.

My cost of college education was paid off working in a year as I stayed home rent free and used public busses monthly pass to get to and from work.

 

Where I stay now, almost everyone is a college graduate and many are PhD holders. I can be a private tutor in math or science for more than double the minimum wage because of my degree, else parents (neighbors) won't be interested unless my kids happen to win a tippy top competition.

[StephanieZ]

I know this was a few days ago, but I keep thinking about this comment.

 

 

Why would you expect only people who were academically incapable would want to be in a career that required something other than university? 

 

I know many people who could easily have gone to university, but went to do other things instead, trade school, forestry school, apprenticeships.  I am not sure why that would be a lesser achievement - they are good at their jobs because they are smart, they also happen to like working with their hands or outdoors or working independently, or rural life.  They didn't settle for something because they were stupid or lazy.

 

I don't have any expectations at all for *other* people or *other* families. I have expectations for my *own* kids, my own family. I thought that was the question -- expectations for your own kids. I must have missed some earlier thread that this spun off that maybe implied something else. 

 

As I indicated, my kids have parents with advanced degrees (MS+DVM, MS)and 2/4 grandparents also had advanced degrees (MBA, JD) and the other 2 had 4 yr degrees and professional careers (satellite engineer with undergrad from MIT, RN). My kids have IQs in the "genius" range. They also test well enough to get free tuition at various schools and we live in a college town where they could most likely attend and *make a profit* if they lived at home while doing so. And they have parents who have committed to paying for them through a reasonable 4 yr degree with no debt and little suffering (modest working during summers, school year just devoted to studies) . . . So, for *my* lucky kids, I think a 4 year degree is a reasonable baseline minimal expectation. Frankly, I hope and expect they all get advanced degrees, but I won't press that if one/all of them don't chose to do so. 

 

I think a 4 year degree is a nice insurance policy. If the money is not a problem (which it is not in my family) and there isn't some other pressing need to do something else those 4 years (say an elite dancer who doesn't want to lose those 4 critical years), then I think getting a 4 year degree is a nice level of "basic" education in my small family/world. It's what I consider a basic level of academic competency to make life more interesting (open intellectual doors, explore the world a bit, etc) and provides a foundation for later study if someone's career goals change. If you have a 4 year degree and later decide, "Oh, I would like to be a lawyer", it's pretty easy to apply. (My mom did that. 4 year degree from Purdue in *home economics* and Masters from an Ivy league in college administration . . . 10-12 years later, mom of 2 littles, she decides to be a lawyer . . . and applies and gets in on her first try . . . And had a great career) I've known lots of people who changed career directions after 5+ years and it's been *much* easier for those who already had at least a 4 year degree than those who did not. 

 

If one has a 4 year degree in math, but later decide they want to be a nurse, they have the option of looking at "fast track" programs that are just 18-24 months and you can be a RN with a bachelor's of nursing. If you had a background in say, being an electrician (great option), you'd have to start from scratch and it'd take a lot longer (and more $$) to get that RN. Having that baseline 4 year degree seems like a good insurance policy towards a stable future with options. Re-schooling when you "have a life" with spouse/kids/mortgage is really a financial challenge, and I'd like my kids to "launch' with as strong a foundation as possible, so that if/when life throws them curveballs, they are best prepared to respond/adapt/etc. 

 

If my kid wanted to be an electrician, I'd encourage him/her to get a 4 year degree in some relevant field (say business or electrical engineering or maybe some field I don't know of) and to work for an electrician during summers, etc, to begin learning the field and strategizing their future. Then, when s/he got their degree, they'd be more than ready to carry on in the field. I'd also encourage them to go to school free/cheap and save some of the "bank of mom and dad money" to be seed money for a future business plan . . . 

 

And, FWIW, my dream life was always to homestead somewhere in the middle of the woods (Alaska) or to be an old fashioned farmer. I love working with my hands, love the earth, etc, and so does dh. He fixes our tools, we garden, etc. He replaced the blades on the riding mower yesterday, and I power washed the driveway . . . When we retire in 19 years, if we're still strong enough, we'd love to buy more land and less house. We have chickens and a goat on our 2 acres . . . I'd love to learn to wood work . . . and we do loads of our own electrical/plumbing/etc. Totally cool with that. Total respect. I don't believe that a 4 year degree precludes any of those options. I have lots of schooling and I don't do any paid job that required it. . . Doesn't mean it was wasted . . . 

[StephanieZ]

My belief is that a college education only for the sake of the education and "experience" is a luxury item. I believe it's actually always been but the current economic situation has only made it more obvious. I think that at $10k to $50k per year, a full on degree, just for the sake of the degree/education/experience, it's a very expensive luxury.

 

That doesn't mean paying for that luxury is a bad thing, our middle class is chock full of luxuries in that price range. I don't care if someone wants a $20k boat, $50k piece of art, or whatever other $10k+ luxury item. I do however think it does a disservice to the student when that luxury is framed as a necessity.

 

Yes, I agree that it often a luxury item if it is being paid for . . . But, if a student earns scholarships to make it free and/or the parents can easily afford the luxury item, then, to me, it becomes a basic/staple. 

[StephanieZ]

Well, like I said before, one can argue that many people only need an education up to about 4th or 8th grade too.  There are certainly students who'd rather not go on and finish high school even though they could do it.

 

For us, the baseline expected is college degree, not 4th, 8th, or 12th grade.  Hubby and I have BTDT and enjoy the depth of thinking at that level and feel it helps develop many good things in (most) people's lives.  

 

What else can I say?  We treasure education.  Some treasure sports or crafts or cooking or whatever.  We treasure education.  I don't give a hoot if many people go to college and don't take advantage of what is there solely wanting the piece of paper.  That's not how we do it.  I also don't care if others don't see the need for college (or high school).  We simply don't share their views.  Within our family, we set our family ideas and plans.  That's what parents do.

 

In the meantime, mine also know quite a bit about taking care of the farm, fixing fences or other equipment, helping their dad with civil engineering field work, laundry, organizing events, basic cooking, gardening, and oodles of other stuff.  They have all turned out to be leaders in their worlds.

 

For some, once they are done with high school they figure out what they are doing.  For mine, once they are finished with college they figure out what they are doing.  They may or may not need their degree.  It all depends upon what path they choose.   ;)

 

(Yes, they might figure it out before the end of high school/college respectively.)

 

Yes, yes, yes!! On all counts. 

[Bluegoat]

I don't have any expectations at all for *other* people or *other* families. I have expectations for my *own* kids, my own family. I thought that was the question -- expectations for your own kids. I must have missed some earlier thread that this spun off that maybe implied something else. 

 

As I indicated, my kids have parents with advanced degrees (MS+DVM, MS)and 2/4 grandparents also had advanced degrees (MBA, JD) and the other 2 had 4 yr degrees and professional careers (satellite engineer with undergrad from MIT, RN). My kids have IQs in the "genius" range. They also test well enough to get free tuition at various schools and we live in a college town where they could most likely attend and *make a profit* if they lived at home while doing so. And they have parents who have committed to paying for them through a reasonable 4 yr degree with no debt and little suffering (modest working during summers, school year just devoted to studies) . . . So, for *my* lucky kids, I think a 4 year degree is a reasonable baseline minimal expectation. Frankly, I hope and expect they all get advanced degrees, but I won't press that if one/all of them don't chose to do so. 

 

I think a 4 year degree is a nice insurance policy. If the money is not a problem (which it is not in my family) and there isn't some other pressing need to do something else those 4 years (say an elite dancer who doesn't want to lose those 4 critical years), then I think getting a 4 year degree is a nice level of "basic" education in my small family/world. It's what I consider a basic level of academic competency to make life more interesting (open intellectual doors, explore the world a bit, etc) and provides a foundation for later study if someone's career goals change. If you have a 4 year degree and later decide, "Oh, I would like to be a lawyer", it's pretty easy to apply. (My mom did that. 4 year degree from Purdue in *home economics* and Masters from an Ivy league in college administration . . . 10-12 years later, mom of 2 littles, she decides to be a lawyer . . . and applies and gets in on her first try . . . And had a great career) I've known lots of people who changed career directions after 5+ years and it's been *much* easier for those who already had at least a 4 year degree than those who did not. 

 

If one has a 4 year degree in math, but later decide they want to be a nurse, they have the option of looking at "fast track" programs that are just 18-24 months and you can be a RN with a bachelor's of nursing. If you had a background in say, being an electrician (great option), you'd have to start from scratch and it'd take a lot longer (and more $$) to get that RN. Having that baseline 4 year degree seems like a good insurance policy towards a stable future with options. Re-schooling when you "have a life" with spouse/kids/mortgage is really a financial challenge, and I'd like my kids to "launch' with as strong a foundation as possible, so that if/when life throws them curveballs, they are best prepared to respond/adapt/etc. 

 

If my kid wanted to be an electrician, I'd encourage him/her to get a 4 year degree in some relevant field (say business or electrical engineering or maybe some field I don't know of) and to work for an electrician during summers, etc, to begin learning the field and strategizing their future. Then, when s/he got their degree, they'd be more than ready to carry on in the field. I'd also encourage them to go to school free/cheap and save some of the "bank of mom and dad money" to be seed money for a future business plan . . . 

 

And, FWIW, my dream life was always to homestead somewhere in the middle of the woods (Alaska) or to be an old fashioned farmer. I love working with my hands, love the earth, etc, and so does dh. He fixes our tools, we garden, etc. He replaced the blades on the riding mower yesterday, and I power washed the driveway . . . When we retire in 19 years, if we're still strong enough, we'd love to buy more land and less house. We have chickens and a goat on our 2 acres . . . I'd love to learn to wood work . . . and we do loads of our own electrical/plumbing/etc. Totally cool with that. Total respect. I don't believe that a 4 year degree precludes any of those options. I have lots of schooling and I don't do any paid job that required it. . . Doesn't mean it was wasted . . . 

 

I don't see university as being about getting a job.  Actually, I rather wish it had nothing to do with getting a job, I think the view of it as vocational is very detrimental to the institution.  It actually sounds to me though that largely you see this as a practical job prep issue.  I am really very much a purist in seeing the university as being fundamentally about seeking knowledge, of a very particular type.  I'm a pretty major proponent of the liberal arts model of the university, and as that being a very important social institution.

 

I think what I really, deeply, object to though is this idea that people who are "geniuses" are supposed to be the same people who want to pursue that particular approach to knowledge, and not the people who want to do other kinds of work, or pursue other kinds of skills, or for that matter other kinds of knowledge.  Whereas in reality, when geniuses go into those things, when they are allowed to develop them as passions with scop for all their energy and mind, they do amazing things in those disciplines.  We wonder why countries like Germany, that really respect technical education, do better at those things than we do.

 

It isn't simple or a short amount of time to do those things, so that starting at 25 is no different than starting at 20, or something someone can do in summers.  I worked with a man who is a master bricklayer this past fall, he's dedicated his life to it, it's taken him 30 years to get there.  Would having a degree as well hurt - not really I guess, but how would it have helped?  Or, my husband's friend.  He spent several years at forestry school, then he spent several years learning to log with horses, he spent time learning some less mainstream forestry management approaches as a kind of apprentice.  Then he worked at them, and now, 20 years work down the line, he has come to a place where he is doing what he wanted, which is teaching young people going into the forestry school now about really sustainable management, from a real position of experience and knowledge - something that he had to cobble together himself.

 

It seems to me there is a real lack of respect for deep knowledge that doesn't have a degree attached to it.

[Bluegoat]

My belief is that a college education only for the sake of the education and "experience" is a luxury item. I believe it's actually always been but the current economic situation has only made it more obvious. I think that at $10k to $50k per year, a full on degree, just for the sake of the degree/education/experience, it's a very expensive luxury.

 

That doesn't mean paying for that luxury is a bad thing, our middle class is chock full of luxuries in that price range. I don't care if someone wants a $20k boat, $50k piece of art, or whatever other $10k+ luxury item. I do however think it does a disservice to the student when that luxury is framed as a necessity.

 

Well, not necessarily always.  It was not always associated in the same way it is now with being a way to get a job, and the very strong association we have that way is pretty new.  UNder those circumstances, it isn't so much a luxery as something that is meant for students who will provide a particular social role as academics.  You could say that under those circumstances, it tends to be more like a calling.

 

It would be a luxury then for those who don't intend to ever be academics of some sort but want to do something else. 

[StephanieZ]

I don't see university as being about getting a job.  Actually, I rather wish it had nothing to do with getting a job, I think the view of it as vocational is very detrimental to the institution.  It actually sounds to me though that largely you see this as a practical job prep issue.  I am really very much a purist in seeing the university as being fundamentally about seeking knowledge, of a very particular type.  I'm a pretty major proponent of the liberal arts model of the university, and as that being a very important social institution.

 

I think what I really, deeply, object to though is this idea that people who are "geniuses" are supposed to be the same people who want to pursue that particular approach to knowledge, and not the people who want to do other kinds of work, or pursue other kinds of skills, or for that matter other kinds of knowledge.  Whereas in reality, when geniuses go into those things, when they are allowed to develop them as passions with scop for all their energy and mind, they do amazing things in those disciplines.  We wonder why countries like Germany, that really respect technical education, do better at those things than we do.

 

It isn't simple or a short amount of time to do those things, so that starting at 25 is no different than starting at 20, or something someone can do in summers.  I worked with a man who is a master bricklayer this past fall, he's dedicated his life to it, it's taken him 30 years to get there.  Would having a degree as well hurt - not really I guess, but how would it have helped?  Or, my husband's friend.  He spent several years at forestry school, then he spent several years learning to log with horses, he spent time learning some less mainstream forestry management approaches as a kind of apprentice.  Then he worked at them, and now, 20 years work down the line, he has come to a place where he is doing what he wanted, which is teaching young people going into the forestry school now about really sustainable management, from a real position of experience and knowledge - something that he had to cobble together himself.

 

It seems to me there is a real lack of respect for deep knowledge that doesn't have a degree attached to it.

 

Huh, well, I don't really think knowledge = degree. I mean, we are on a homeschooling board, lol. I definitely agree that knowledge and learning and intellect can/should be pursued outside of an institution. 

 

I think that a 4 year degree provides fundamental 2 things:

 

1) a basic learning/knowledge/experience beyond what I can provide in homeschooling. I see that experience as a foundation of education for a learned person and that learning should allow the child to better self-educate for the rest of his/her life. Creek land explains this better than I could, so I'll just refer to her posts that I agree with . . . For my family, I see a 4 year degree as the final leg of a *basic* education -- providing a foundation for the rest of the person's life. 

 

2) a starting point for many careers. The careers I aspire to for my kids are mostly those which require advanced degrees, so having a 4 year degree is a fundamental starting point. If they end up choosing a career that didn't require the 4 year degree, that degree still serves the purpose #1 above and also provides an insurance policy for the kid if they change their career goals later in life. 

 

I won't argue about how our educational and economic systems are structured. It is what it is, and I have plenty of complaints, lol. Education here is also very expensive, and so is life (kids, health care, child care, mortgage, etc). In *our* country, it is expensive to have kids and expensive to get educated. We don't have the free child care, free higher education, free health care, etc, that is available in some countries. If we *did* have a stronger support system for families, I'd feel much less pressured to make sure my kids are fully educated and fully self-supporting *before* they have kids. But, in our country, having a family while also pursing a lengthy education most likely means a lot of sacrifice and a lot of debt. Since I have the ability to help help my kids avoid that struggle, that's what I prefer to do. Since life here in the US requires money, I'd like to make sure my kids have money before they have a lot of life responsibilities . . . thus, I'd like them to have a solid education before life interrupts and they suddenly have a spouse/kids/etc. And, I don't particularly want money to stop them from having kids, either, so another vote for getting that basic education done ASAP.

 

I don't think spending from age 18-22 in college should negatively impact one's ability to pursue all sorts of learning in the future in any contexts desired. I require my kids to learn a language, learn an instrument, learn to cook and clean and do laundry and fix things, learn to drive, complete Calculus in high school, and I also expect them to get a 4 year college degree and to make themselves capable of supporting themselves and any children they produce. Those are just some of the basics I expect in *my* family. What my adult children chose to do will ultimately be up to them, but I will provide assistance/help/support towards meeting my expectations should they choose to embrace them. 

[creekland]

Having that baseline 4 year degree seems like a good insurance policy towards a stable future with options. Re-schooling when you "have a life" with spouse/kids/mortgage is really a financial challenge, and I'd like my kids to "launch' with as strong a foundation as possible, so that if/when life throws them curveballs, they are best prepared to respond/adapt/etc.  

 

This is a biggie too.  We have several adult friends who reached a ceiling in their jobs with no degree.  They've had to accept the ceiling or go back and get a degree. Those who chose to get the degree told me it was significantly more difficult to juggle with a family. Every single one of them has made sure their kids got a degree right after high school.  If they use it, fine.  If not, they'll have it.

 

Getting a degree stops nothing in life really just as getting a high school diploma doesn't.  Being in college has exposed my guys to so many things they didn't do here and given them the time to delve into them.

 

Maybe it is a luxury, but if so, we can pay for that luxury due to the degrees my parents got and the degrees we have...  I thank my grandparents for their foresight.

[StephanieZ]

This is a biggie too.  We have several adult friends who reached a ceiling in their jobs with no degree.  They've had to accept the ceiling or go back and get a degree. Those who chose to get the degree told me it was significantly more difficult to juggle with a family. Every single one of them has made sure their kids got a degree right after high school.  If they use it, fine.  If not, they'll have it.

 

Getting a degree stops nothing in life really just as getting a high school diploma doesn't.  Being in college has exposed my guys to so many things they didn't do here and given them the time to delve into them.

 

Maybe it is a luxury, but if so, we can pay for that luxury due to the degrees my parents got and the degrees we have...  I thank my grandparents for their foresight.

 

Exactly. Thank you for expressing so articulately the points I try to make so awkwardly, lol. 

[raptor_dad]

The fact we are even considering if college is a luxury explains why I really liked Bernie Sanders plan to make public college free. It short circuits all the discussions of ROI and who should get gov't benefits and all the rest and instead declares that access to college education is a basic human right. Clearly many Americans disagree with that. Many posters here disagree with that. No one is going to change anyone's mind on this issue in this thread. But, I think the idea of college as a basic human right is the other end of the spectrum from college as a luxury good.

[DawnM]

I disagree. If someome gives me a $10k jetski or $25k boat or whatever, I still think that I have been given a luxury.

 

And again, I have no problem with people having luxuries. I don't care what luxuries a person has or wants or wants their kids to have or whatever. Not to mention, luxuries are nice to have. And they can certainly be beneficial to have.

 

The only issue I have is when luxuries are framed as necessities. Now, in a lot of cases, a degree might very well be necessary to get a person where they want to go. Someone who wants to be a teacher, or a metorologist, or engineer or any one of a million other jobs is going to need a degree to get there.

 

But there are also a million other ways to be happy, successful, and productive without it. My mom and sister own a cake shop, neither has a degree. My cousin owns her own dog grooming business, no degree. And there are plenty of other options out there.

 

 

I don't think you can compare a jet ski or boat to a college education.  A college education is a degree that follows you for life, a jet ski or boat will eventually not work anymore.

 

I rarely, if ever, hear people regret getting a college education.  I do hear people regret NOT getting one.  Does that mean everyone needs one?  Nope!  But it does mean that there is importance to "that little piece of paper."

 

For many, many jobs out there, a degree is indeed a necessity.  

[StephanieZ]

I disagree. If someome gives me a $10k jetski or $25k boat or whatever, I still think that I have been given a luxury.

 

And again, I have no problem with people having luxuries. I don't care what luxuries a person has or wants or wants their kids to have or whatever. Not to mention, luxuries are nice to have. And they can certainly be beneficial to have.

 

The only issue I have is when luxuries are framed as necessities. Now, in a lot of cases, a degree might very well be necessary to get a person where they want to go. Someone who wants to be a teacher, or a metorologist, or engineer or any one of a million other jobs is going to need a degree to get there.

 

But there are also a million other ways to be happy, successful, and productive without it. My mom and sister own a cake shop, neither has a degree. My cousin owns her own dog grooming business, no degree. And there are plenty of other options out there.

 

Well, running water is a luxury in many places. Education is a luxury in many places. Owning a home is a luxury in many places. Owning your own transportation is a luxury in most places, too. Heck, food is a luxury in many places. 

 

Every family/home/community/culture has different definitions of necessities, basics, and luxuries. In my family, within the culture I live in, a 4yr degree is not a luxury. In my family it is a basic. Not maybe a necessity (as in food, shelter, healthcare) but definitely a basic (like a safe and reliable vehicle, internet access, a private bedroom in a safe home, tasty as well as nutritious food). In *my* family culture, luxuries include expensive vacations, organic foods, expensive wines, jewelry beyond a wedding ring, fancy name brand clothes, Ivy league degrees, high end or new cars . . . To me, those things are luxuries, but a 4yr degree from a reputable institution is a basic, not a luxury. TO ME. 

 

*I* feel an obligation to help my children (so long as they are willing and able) to achieve a lifestyle similar to the one my own parents helped me achieve and my husband's parents helped him achieve. My kids can certainly make choices as adults that differ from ours (dh and I certainly did make some choices very different from our own parents), but until they are ready and able to take adult responsibility for their lives and their choices, I will help them be on track to have the same opportunities that dh and I have had. And, to do that, a 4 year degree at the very least is required. 

 

I don't think a 4 year degree is a necessity for every person, and I don't think you are a bad parent if you don't encourage/expect/support your kid in that goal, but, for me, I absolutely think a 4 year degree is a basic element of preparing for life (assuming it is feasible for the student). 

[DawnM]

i totally think a parent should encourage/expect/support their child through a college degree.

 

I just think that should go beyond "get the degree." I think if someone is going to all the work and time and, yes, money, of getting a degree, it needs to be part of a greater plan beyond the education. I don't believe that any degree is better than none at all, but at the same time I belive that a degree as a part of a larger plan is beneficial.

 

It's not that I disagree with the vast majority of people getting a college degree. It's that I think getting that degree should always be part of a larger plan.

 

Do you know people who have no end game in mind and just go to college for no reason and don't plan to do anything with it?

 

Everyone I know goes to school precisely because there is a larger plan.  

[creekland]

The only issue I have is when luxuries are framed as necessities. Now, in a lot of cases, a degree might very well be necessary to get a person where they want to go. Someone who wants to be a teacher, or a metorologist, or engineer or any one of a million other jobs is going to need a degree to get there.

 

But there are also a million other ways to be happy, successful, and productive without it. My mom and sister own a cake shop, neither has a degree. My cousin owns her own dog grooming business, no degree. And there are plenty of other options out there.

 

One could easily argue that your mom, sister, and cousin didn't/don't need a high school diploma for their jobs too.

 

I'm ok if my guys choose any job short of pimp, illegal drug dealer (or other criminal), or terrorist.  They know we have those restrictions as we mention them.   :lol:   But we still want them to have a college education since they are 100% capable of doing so.  It's the base level in our family.  No regrets.  None from my kids either.  They're loving (or loved) their college years just as we parents did.  There's plenty of time to settle down and work for a living afterward.

 

I'm glad there are jobs that don't require a college degree.  Some students need those jobs as academics don't come easily to them.  It doesn't mean a college education is worthless for those pursuing that route though just like a high school education isn't worthless for a dog groomer.

 

Education has its own value.

 

A car has its own value whether one uses it for their job or not too.

 

Pets have their own value even if they aren't hunters "working" for a living.

 

None of these are basics in the same sense that food, water, and shelter are, but they're the next level of basics to us.  Travel is right up there too.  For us, travel and education are hand in hand buddies.

[creekland]

Do you know people who have no end game in mind and just go to college for no reason and don't plan to do anything with it?

 

Everyone I know goes to school precisely because there is a larger plan.  

 

My oldest and youngest went to school not really knowing what they were going to do afterward.  Oldest is using his degree having discovered he absolutely loves all things business (even tax knowledge).  Youngest might never use his degree, though he's already using some of the knowledge he's learned.

 

Middle is my only child who knew (from 3rd grade) that he wanted to be a doctor and med school in this country requires an undergrad degree first.  Even so, he got to choose what he wanted to major in because choice of major doesn't matter.  He's loving what he chose - and making a difference via his research.

[DawnM]

My oldest and youngest went to school not really knowing what they were going to do afterward.  Oldest is using his degree having discovered he absolutely loves all things business (even tax knowledge).  Youngest might never use his degree, though he's already using some of the knowledge he's learned.

 

Middle is my only child who knew (from 3rd grade) that he wanted to be a doctor and med school in this country requires an undergrad degree first.  Even so, he got to choose what he wanted to major in because choice of major doesn't matter.  He's loving what he chose - and making a difference via his research.

 

But there is still a goal, to get a BA for a purpose.  If your plan is to be a welder or a plumber, there is no need. That is what I mean.

 

I didn't know what I wanted to do either.  I went undeclared.  But I can't do my job now without a degree.

[Jane in NC]

But there are also a million other ways to be happy, successful, and productive without it. My mom and sister own a cake shop, neither has a degree. My cousin owns her own dog grooming business, no degree. And there are plenty of other options out there.

 

Owning a business may or may not require a degree or certification--depending on the business.  In my area (tourist and construction driven), there are jobs for people without degrees but the problem is that they might be minimum wage or they might be seasonal or even under the table.  Consider two lawn and garden businesses whose owners I know.  One business started with two mowers and a dad and son who mowed lawns after school and on weekends.  This is an extra money business, not a support the family business.  Compare this to the people who own the earth movers and deposit fill dirt as well as sod lawns--they have a business that required significant capitalization.  That money came from the wife's father who invested in the business for his daughter and her husband.  It was a business that supported the family and a couple of employees until the last recession.  Then the wife found a corporate job for the sake of benefits while her husband kept the landscaping business going. 

 

Small businesses can be very successful.  I don't think every realtor in my area is pulling in six figures but it would not surprise me if a number were after they write off their business expenses.  No degree required.

 

Where I live it would be challenging for a high school graduate to open a cake shop without family money.  I don't know if a bank would give a loan to a high school grad with a plan.  Perhaps the high school grad started making wedding cakes in high school.  Do you need a commercial kitchen for that?  Again I don't know.

 

Whatever our kids decide to do, I think they need to be aware that life changes.  One of my buddies had a successful career as a respiratory therapist.  She started in the field with a two year degree which was the norm at that time.  As the years went by, new hires had four year degrees.  There was no way she was moving up the food chain with a two year degree.  She had no choice but to get a BS while she was working full time.  I doubt if this is the only field for which industry standards changed.

 

The other thing that we need to consider is that our kids are not us.  They may have different values. They are going to live through different economic booms and busts.  I think the best we can do as parents is to provide a solid foundation.  In my family culture, that means college or some sort of post secondary certification. Of course many of us have raised autodidacts who will be well served with this skill in the long run but they'll still have to jump through some sort of hoop to demonstrate their self learned knowledge. 

 

[helena]

I'll tell you what threw me for a loop. It's the pompous and classist attitude we've encountered over and over again about going to community college before transferring.   

 

I may live in a nice neighborhood, but my family is working class. I'm trying to push my kids up, so that they can move beyond where the older generation stopped. That's hard to do when your kids come home from fencing to say that everyone in class is mocking them for our choices. I've had to have some pretty frank discussions about class issues, wanting more in life and knowing/appreciating where you come from. My family is a little rough around the edges. I think at this point my girls are glad about that. They think there's a lot of rich pricks around us basically. They'd rather be a little rough, and well read and travelled. I'm fine with that.

Adults, kids, teens, all the rude little things they say, have soured the topic a little for my girls. Oh well... what doesn't kill you makes you stronger right? It seems like this is the year of overusing those cliches. 

 

I keep typing and erasing so I'll leave it at that. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by helena

[DawnM]

I met a very large number of students when I was in school who, yes, had no reason to be there. They were there because mom and dad said so. My DH had the same experience when he was in school (he went to college while we were married, graduated about 4 hrs ago). And, DD has relayed the same to me, the number of students there who have no idea why they are there (dd20 is going to Ball State,) astounds her.

 

Yes, it has been my experience, first and second hand, that a very large number of kids are taught that they *have* to go to college because it's a necessity, but then they get there and have NO idea what what they are there for-there is not a larger plan for a large number of students. That's the disservice IMO.

 

But are they going there with the attitude of never using their degree because their passion is something completely unrelated?  

 

Most I met whose parents made them still knew they needed a degree.

 

I guess the people I have met are different.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Being able to afford college with no end game in sight is for people in a higher financial bracket than I am.  I am all for a liberal arts education.  That's why I provided that via a classical college prep homeschool.  But college needs to have a dual function for us with some application to future job prospects. 

 

Helena, we are doing doing our first two years at community college.  I think it is the financially savvy thing to do.  Also- as a neighbor pointed out (we were talking about this very thing today), our closest community college gives a really good education with small(er) class sizes and undergrad courses taught by actual professors but without the big private college price tag.  That's another win in my book. 

[DawnM]

It is harder to attend a 4 year school with no end game these days anyway.   Most colleges require you to declare a major and apply to the school and the school within the school.  Changing majors mid-stream requires a new application and admissions process and not just a signing of a piece of paper, like it used to.

 

I understand not entering school with no plan.  A plan is very important to us, in fact, we are sitting down with our soon to be 11th grader this summer and discussing some things about college.    

 

The local 4 year school isn't much more $$ than the CC, which is strange, but the way it is.  So either of those would be a viable option if he isn't completely sure about what he wants.

[helena]

Being able to afford college with no end game in sight is for people in a higher financial bracket than I am.  I am all for a liberal arts education.  That's why I provided that via a classical college prep homeschool.  But college needs to have a dual function for us with some application to future job prospects. 

 

Helena, we are doing doing our first two years at community college.  I think it is the financially savvy thing to do.  Also- as a neighbor pointed out (we were talking about this very thing today), our closest community college gives a really good education with small(er) class sizes and undergrad courses taught by actual professors but without the big private college price tag.  That's another win in my book. 

I agree. I feel good about our plan. 

I went to the CC my kids will go to. I liked it, I know they will too. If they don't come up with a better plan on their own, the school they'll be transferring to is a good school, and right here in town. 

[Prairie~Phlox]

College isn't as cheap as it once was, so to just go for the sake of going with no end plan is quite hard unless you just have money to throw away.

[FaithManor]

Really? DH's mom is a 4-H leader and I haven't heard this.

 

DH went to Ferris State and two siblings went to U of M.

It is a local county thing. Lots of rivalry.

[DawnM]

College isn't as cheap as it once was, so to just go for the sake of going with no end plan is quite hard unless you just have money to throw away.

 

 

See, I just don't see education as throwing money away.  

 

And sometimes the end plan can be to just get the degree.  You may have to get to grad school eventually, but the degree can open doors.  As was stated earlier, and now stated by me, I know people whose careers would advance if they would just have a degree in anything.  I know many on this board would argue that that is stupid, and maybe it is, but those are the hoops to jump through, and they weren't willing to do it.

 

I admit I DID change majors.  It is a long story, but one of my professors who was my advisor and working on an independent major with me, was fired between my Jr and Sr year.  I had to quickly find another major.

I thought of switching to something that would have taken an additional year, but my father was very wise and told me to just get the degree and use that extra year for grad school.  As it turned out, that served me better than doing the extra year of undergrad.  That obviously isn't the answer for everyone, but it was a good choice for me.

 

However, we are also blessed with inexpensive state schools locally, and if my son isn't sure what he wants to do, it is an excellent choice to start there.

Edited June 23, 2016 by DawnM

[Jean in Newcastle]

Two years of community college here costs less than one year of the state university.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[creekland]

my experience has been that they are there because......well...they don't know. They were told they NEED to go to college, so they went. No real answer to questions like "what do you want to do with your life?" Or "what do you want to be when you want to grow up?" They change majors like 6 times, completely unrelated fields like going from theater to physical therapy to journalism to whatever else. It may be that you have met different people. I admit that my experiences with traditional students isn't always traditional.

 

This is why my youngest went.  It's also why many go to high school if you ask them.

 

At 13 (7th/8th grade) or 18 (end of high school) many just don't know what they want to do.  Some do, and that's fine, but most have vague ideas at best.  They haven't really been exposed to much of what is out there.  Life is long enough now that they don't have to know at that age what they want to be when they grow up.   ;)

 

My youngest started out as a Marine Science major, then switched to Bio, then to Theater, and now to International Relations (I need to update my sig).  Along the way he's discovered he loves languages and different cultures.  He's picked up Arabic and will be starting Italian.  He already knows French.  He's also discovered a love of studying longevity in humans though his "standard" LAC courses at college.  He went to Greece on a school trip to get more of a "real" grasp on that.  Plus he discovered he enjoys leading a Christian club on campus and has been very active with that.  He's found a great resource for oodles of tidbits of learning with a retired "Educated Folks" (Aspec) https://www.eckerd.edu/aspec/ who get together on campus.

 

Four years of this is well worth what we are paying and is helping him hone in on his niche in his life.  We're not full pay, but would pay it if we could anyway.  It's worth it and sure beats forcing him to figure out what he wanted to do by age 18.

 

Oh... and he's the one who already has a job offer using his skills (learned in college) when he graduates.  He's also had others telling him to look them up when he's done.  They're serious.

 

Is he alone?  No. I work at a public high school.  Oodles of kids figure out what they want to do during their college years.  They may start off with some sort of idea (like mine did with Marine Science), but often change when they see a combo of all that is out there and discover what they really like doing.  The last gal I heard about (from mom) started as something (not sure what), switched to Poly Sci, then Communications, then has ended up with Occupational Therapy which she loves.  She graduates in Dec - half a year extra due to indecision - but also already has a job when she's done.  She had no idea she'd love it when a senior in high school.

 

College isn't as cheap as it once was, so to just go for the sake of going with no end plan is quite hard unless you just have money to throw away.

 

People throw money away for all sorts of things from daily Starbucks to fancy cars.  We throw ours away by travel.

 

Education dollars aren't thrown away IMO - even if we could fund some nice trips with what we are paying.  Education dollars are an investment in my kids lives and by default, the next generation.  Even if they decide they want a job that doesn't require their specific degree, they'll never lose our investment (short of a medical issue).  This is why we consider this level of education to be basic (for kids who can handle the academics).

 

As a plus, that degree can open doors to all sorts of things later if they opt to do those.

 

It's like a high school degree - just four years more advanced.  As stated before, there are many arguments being used on here against college that can easily be applied to high school.  Some kids at school use those arguments often!  I'm one who believes some kids should be able to opt out of high school (esp when it's for that academic ability reason).  But I also believe that most kids who can handle the academics ought to go through 2 or 4 years of college if they can find an affordable option before they consider themselves "done."   ;)

 

My grandmother was only able to go to school through 4th grade and still led a successful happy life.  She always wished she could have gone to college.  We had an older janitor at school who gave a moving short speech to our high school graduates at an assembly a few years back tearfully encouraging them and mentioning that he wished he could have gone to college.

 

IRL I don't know anyone who's gone to college who wishes they hadn't.  I only know of a few of those on here.  Most in my IRL circle enjoy sharing stories from our college days.  A rare one or two didn't enjoy it, but still are glad they got their degree.  

 

My own youngest who wasn't sure about going and had a little bit of a rough transition loves it now.

 

It's an investment - not money thrown away.  (I never advocate high debt (> the cost of a new car), so affordable options are better.  High debt needs to be avoided IMO.)

Edited June 23, 2016 by creekland

[SparklyUnicorn]

Two years of community college here costs less than one year of the state university.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Same here. 

[DawnM]

Things have changed since I was in school.  

 

For our local CC and 4 year systems, CC *can* be a great option for your general education requirements, but for many majors now, specific general ed classes are required that may or may not be the ones you need.  

 

For example, my 16 year old is now mentioning Engineering.  I don't know if he will pursue that or not, but in looking at the specific prerequisites he needs, they can't all be met at the CC.   He could probably get 1 year of CC in before he will need to take the rest at the 4 year school.

 

Also, going to CC first can be a detriment if you qualify for any of the freshman scholarships.  If you don't enter as a freshman, you no longer can get any of those.

 

I don't know that freshman scholarships will be anything we need to worry about, but it is something I am looking into.

 

 

[flyingiguana]

 

I also thought I would be super homeschooling mom whose children would be ready to graduate from college at age 12.

This didn't happen.

 

There's a reason college age is 18.  Academically speaking, I think a lot of younger kids could mentally handle the coursework.  What they can't handle is being responsible enough to actually do it.

 

And 18 is just an average minimum age where this might be expected.

 

[flyingiguana]

Do you know people who have no end game in mind and just go to college for no reason and don't plan to do anything with it?

 

Everyone I know goes to school precisely because there is a larger plan.  

 

I'm pretty convinced my daughter's in college only because she likes the classes.  She's got no plan for what she'll do afterward or how her major will get her there.

 

To be honest, interest in learning might be the best reason of all to go to college. 

 

The side benefit is that it will make it easier for her to get a higher paying job afterwards.  (Well, for the field her major will put her in, she'll be able to GET a job in that area if she decides to stay in it.  I don't know of anyone who gets jobs in math/physics without a bachelor's)

 

[DawnM]

I'm pretty convinced my daughter's in college only because she likes the classes.  She's got no plan for what she'll do afterward or how her major will get her there.

 

To be honest, interest in learning might be the best reason of all to go to college. 

 

The side benefit is that it will make it easier for her to get a higher paying job afterwards.  (Well, for the field her major will put her in, she'll be able to GET a job in that area if she decides to stay in it.  I don't know of anyone who gets jobs in math/physics without a bachelor's)

 

 

 

I guess I actually see that as an end plan and maybe my definition is different than other people. 

[Bluegoat]

I met a very large number of students when I was in school who, yes, had no reason to be there. They were there because mom and dad said so. My DH had the same experience when he was in school (he went to college while we were married, graduated about 4 hrs ago). And, DD has relayed the same to me, the number of students there who have no idea why they are there (dd20 is going to Ball State,) astounds her.

 

Yes, it has been my experience, first and second hand, that a very large number of kids are taught that they *have* to go to college because it's a necessity, but then they get there and have NO idea what what they are there for-there is not a larger plan for a large number of students. That's the disservice IMO.

 

 

Yes, this was a lot of the kids at my university.  It wasn't true, so much, of the kids at my college - they weren't necessaraly there for a job - in fact that was less often the case, but they had a pretty clear idea about their educational goals.

 

And I do know many people who regretted their degrees, because they did not take them in a direction that they ultimately wanted to go - they ended up with the degree, and then they had fewer options for gaining the skills they needed for the work they wanted because they had loan debt, or no one would help with a second qualification.

 

I really don't understand the argument "well it is harder to get the degree later when you have a mortgage/kids/etc."  That works the other way as well, once you have a degree, you have spent time and money, and gone on with life - more time and money for some other kind of training may no longer be an easy option. 

 

That is often even the case in places where there is publicly funded post-secondary education.

 

ETA - I keep coming back to - if someone expects their kids will go to university, even if they are willing to pay for the whole thing, do they also have every intention of paying for a second set of training for the child for whom that doesn't offer a career direction that is what they are most interested or talented in?  I can't see how anyone can know, with a child, enough to expect that they will want to do the kind of work, for a lifetime, that university will best prepare them for - they might be much more inclined to something else.

 

Are they on their own, in that case, for finding training in career skills?  Or is it that people who take this view are just well off enough to be able to put their kids through two separate types of post-secondary education?

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Bluegoat

[hornblower]

Being college educated is an end plan in itself. Just getting the degree is an end plan in itself. 

I changed majors twice & had no end plan beyond just getting a bachelor's degree & then trying to figure out the rest of life. 

My 2nd kid has no real plan or specific idea about what to study. I'm going to send him for a 4 year degree. I don't care in what. I don't care if he picks the easiest (to him) subjects & gets a 'vague' degree.  Its value lies in the discipline, the exposure to ideas, and the piece of paper itself. It opens doors. 


But higher education is not ridiculously expensive in Canada.  

I think the US, by framing it as a luxury, gets away with not having adequately generous public funding for post secondary, and has created conditions which make it a luxury. It's a circle  - which could be broken with political will. 

[Bluegoat]

I guess I actually see that as an end plan and maybe my definition is different than other people. 

 

It could be an end plan, if it will help you get the kind of work you want.

 

If it won't than it really isn't an end plan, the student will have a whole second set of considerations upon finishing, and it might even be a barrier in that there will be less money, and they might be tired of living like a student at that point, or want to start making money, build a career, get married, whatever.