How much do you expect for writing at 9th grade?

[Janeway]

I felt like my 14 yr old's writing was very weak this past year. His class did not teach composition, but did have writing each week. Often, it was something short, like a short answer type thing. Other things, there was an actual essay. I did not like his papers when I saw them. He was clearly either unable to make a good solid paper, or he was trying to get away with writing as little as possible. He had fine structure, excellent grammar and spelling and word usage. He was very casual though. His papers generally were not more than a half page long. He had another class where he had to write and give speeches. Those, he did not bother with proper structure on paper. But when I listened to his speech, he did have good organization.

 

Figuring his writing was quite poor, I submitted his writing to Bravewriter to ask where to place him. They suggested Kidswrite Intermediate. Fine. I told my son and he said that is not fair. He said that was not his best work and he could do way better. 

 

So for both boys I assigned an end of year paper. I told them to write about our big field trip earlier this week. After about 36 hrs of not starting, I helped 14 yr old break it down in to an outline. We got the main points down. Then I told him to fill in the details and then put the paper aside and let me look at it and we will work together on the next step. Another 48 hrs has gone by. I have tried to offer him helpful hints and such, guidance to get him to write more. Nope. Finally, I told him he just had to sit there until he could fill in some details from each category. With him, a huge problem he has is rushing through papers and assignments. He does not want to take the time to do them. 

 

Now he is working on the details, but, he asks me "how long does this paper have to be?" I told him this is his final paper of the year and this is also sort of a test because I want to figure out where he needs to be placed in writing next year. So, the paper is likely to go on for an entire page, maybe even two pages. He thinks this is too long and way too much for him to do. Again, I think this is not about ability but rather about him trying to rush through everything. 

 

Can you all please tell me how much writing and the length and such you expect at 9th grade?

[rlestina]

I think a good 1-2 page paper, well-organized and cogent, is a very reasonable expectation for 9th. 

 

That said, I have had kids who can easily write a very good 8-10 page paper with no issues at 9th, and I currently have one, rising 9th, who struggles to write one respectable page. So it certainly varies by kid.  However, my struggling writer is using WWS1, which I think is somewhat remedial for 9th.  So maybe the Intermediate Bravewriter placement was good?

 

I tell all of mine, that it's not just whether you can write well when all the stars align and you have lots of time and help.  You have to be able to write quickly and well on demand, before you really have achieved that level of skill. 

 

Hope that helps.

[freesia]

I would expect 1-2 pages for an essay. How much is variable depending on the child, but about a rate of 1-2 pages every 3 weeks (with paragraph answers in certain classes weekly) is reasonable.

[EKS]

I would work with him on writing a solid one page paper.  By the end of 10th you could work towards 2-3 pages, 5 pages by the end of 11th, and 8-10 pages by the end of 12th.  Obviously if you are assigning longer papers, you're going to need to give him more time to complete them.

 

I would also help him with understanding the audience for his papers.  Generally speaking, the audience for a paper produced for a class is not the instructor.  When students assume that the audience is the instructor, they tend to write less because they also assume that instructor knows all and so doesn't need any background information or to be reminded of anything.

 

I'd also let him know that when a certain length is specified, the point is not to fill up the appropriate amount of space.  It is to develop the essay to the extent that is appropriate for that particular length.  This means that a one page essay will contain less background and supporting details than a 10 page essay that discusses the same issue.

 

Also keep in mind that producing high quality writing on a topic that you have just learned about is quite difficult--even a one page paper can be time consuming.  The best thing I ever did to improve my own ability to teach writing was to take several graduate level courses that forced me to write lots of long (and short) papers about issues that I had only recently been thinking about.  What I discovered is that it is not trivial--and I was a professional scientific/medical writer for several years before I started homeschooling.

Edited May 20, 2016 by EKS

[Carrie12345]

 

 

I would also help him with understanding the audience for his papers.  Generally speaking, the audience for a paper produced for a class is not the instructor.  When students assume that the audience is the instructor, they tend to write less because they also assume that instructor knows all and so doesn't need any background information or to be reminded of anything.

 

 

 

I think THIS has made for a huge change in my 7th and 8th graders' writing.  We never specifically discussed the assumed audience of papers.  *I assumed they'd somehow naturally understand that they should be writing "to" a complete stranger expecting to learn from their words.  *They assumed, hey, Mom knows exactly what I'm talking about!  It wasn't until I recognized this gap and specified their purpose that I got some fairly decent writing out of them.  :huh:

[EKS]

I think THIS has made for a huge change in my 7th and 8th graders' writing.  We never specifically discussed the assumed audience of papers.  *I assumed they'd somehow naturally understand that they should be writing "to" a complete stranger expecting to learn from their words.  *They assumed, hey, Mom knows exactly what I'm talking about!  It wasn't until I recognized this gap and specified their purpose that I got some fairly decent writing out of them.  :huh:

 

Yes--my son's writing got much better very quickly when I attended to this issue.  I was alerted to the issue while reading the book Engaging Ideas by John Bean.  The book is intended for college instructors, but it is the best book about teaching writing that I've come across.

[Janeway]

Great then. Thanks! This is the only paper I have personally assigned this year and his last paper from his outsourced classes was a month ago. So this assignment is reasonable then. Thanks!

[Shellydon]

My just completed 8th grader can easily pull together a very good 3-5 page essay.  We have been very intentional about teaching writing since 5th grade, and this year she has taken Potter's School English 1 which is writing heavy.

[EndOfOrdinary]

In my husband's public school 9th grade English, he expects at least 3-5 pages from 9th graders by the end of the year. He teaches at risk, remedial writers. For many this is a reach. It is supposed to be by the end of the year. Secondly, they are not helped with scaffolding. The scaffolding is what is taught during first and second semester. If you are helping create an outline, give bullet points, craft a thesis, then your ninth grader is definitely in remedial writing. Your assignment is more than adequate. It is too easy.

 

I think you might need to have a "coming to Jesus discussion." It sounds like writing is not a favorite subject and you just plain need to fail him a few times rather than jumping in to save him. If he can do it, you need him to know it is his obligation to do it. If he won't, then he needs some consequences. Nineth grade is hard for a lot of boys. It is a nig wake up that middle school is over and they might in fact have actually study.

[RootAnn]

First of all, the Bravewriter class suggested is the starter class they recommend at you sons level. IMO, it sounds beneficial- not remedial.

 

Second, my oldest is a reluctant writer and struggles with writing (for my assignments). My next two are younger and can turn out one page, nicely organized, cohesive papers without a lot of pain or gnashing of teeth. Different strengths, different kids.

 

The BW class should be helpful to him. It sounds like he has idea-generating or idea-organizing challenges. Good luck.

[Brad S]

In my husband's public school 9th grade English, he expects at least 3-5 pages from 9th graders by the end of the year. He teaches at risk, remedial writers. For many this is a reach. It is supposed to be by the end of the year. Secondly, they are not helped with scaffolding. The scaffolding is what is taught during first and second semester.

 

That's my understanding of what they do in 9th grade at our local public school too.  It doesn't seem like the expectations are a lot higher in 9th grade for non "at risk, remedial writers," but the level steps up after 9th.

 

Writing is not easy for most people in my experience.  We devoted an entire class in 9th grade to "composition and rhetoric" in addition to a full class (credit) on literature.  I'm not sure if we'll do the same in 10th grade, but we will if we need to.  A major high school academic goal of mine for my DS is that he be able to express himself confidently, rationally and competently in writing, so YMMV.  Sure, I wish we would have gotten to that point in middle school, but we didn't. 

 

[Loesje22000]

QWhen my 13yo enrolled to BW Kidswrite intermediate she was - with some others - the youngest of the class.

Most were about 15yo

[happypamama]

Just had to say that this is a super helpful thread!  My rising ninth grader is not really a natural writer, or at least not of the "can crank out a three page paper without blinking" sort, and this is giving me good guidelines about what to expect from her.

[almondbutterandjelly]

My 9th grader did tons of outlining, several paragraphs, and a 4 page research paper, which was guided step by step by me.  I helped her learn to find books at the library on her topic.  I taught her how to do note cards (well, I used Seton Composition to do this) and source cards.  She took notes from her sources, a couple index cards every day.  Then we worked on organizing the note cards into general topics and making an outline from those.  Then she wrote her paper, a piece of the outline at a time.

 

It ended up being 3.5 pages, not counting the Works Cited page.

[laughing lioness]

I don't think "writing papers" comes easily for most people either, because it's so vague and undefined. We used Lost Tools of Writing this year for our CC Ch A program and the 10 kids (of varying abilities and skills) all wrote 10 essays of 2-5 pgs each in 30 weeks. They all also wrote a final apologetics paper- the longest was 6 pages. Our Ch 1 group (mostly 9th/10th graders) wrote 8 essays of 2-5 pgs each and then a 15 pg research paper for science. 

The research paper was very challenging because it was less defined and their Director is more of a science type vs. lit type. But they did it. 

I highly recommend Lost Tools of Writing. It takes ALL of the questions out of writing and follows the 5 Cannons of Rhetoric. These kids will never wonder what an essay is again- or how to write one. 

[Haiku]

I'm glad I read this thread. My dd is working on a research paper for history and I was worried that requiring four pages was too lenient. I'm glad to see that if she can produce 2-3 pages in 8th grade, we are on track.

 

I would also help him with understanding the audience for his papers.  Generally speaking, the audience for a paper produced for a class is not the instructor.  When students assume that the audience is the instructor, they tend to write less because they also assume that instructor knows all and so doesn't need any background information or to be reminded of anything.

 

We have struggled some with this, too, mostly in my dd's logic curriculum. For short-answer questions, she tends to give the bare minimum, with the excuse that, "I know what I meant." I keep reminding her that she's not writing for herself; she's writing for someone who hasn't read the curriculum and is learning from her answers. I don't think she believes me.  :laugh:

[EKS]

We have struggled some with this, too, mostly in my dd's logic curriculum. For short-answer questions, she tends to give the bare minimum, with the excuse that, "I know what I meant." I keep reminding her that she's not writing for herself; she's writing for someone who hasn't read the curriculum and is learning from her answers. I don't think she believes me.  :laugh:

 

It's hard to convince homeschooled kids in particular of this--at least it is around here--when the only person who ever looks at their work is Mom and then it goes in a notebook never to be seen again!

[MerryAtHope]

Kidswrite Intermediate is a common placement for high school students who haven't done the BW classes before--maybe he just doesn't understand from the title of the class, that he's doing just fine? It's not "low" at all (I'd take that placement as an endorsement that he's doing just fine). From the BW website:

 

If you have kids 14 and older, consider starting with Kidswrite Intermediate. Kidswrite Intermediate prepares students for the demands of academic writing in high school and beyond.

 

As far as what my kids could do--one was able to write a research paper of a couple of pages fairly independently (we discussed revisions, I asked questions to help the student flesh out info or make things clearer), and the other struggled with writing a decent paragraph. Both were still working through AAS at that point. Don't worry where they're at--work with them at that point and build from there. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by MerryAtHope

[Julie of KY]

What do I expect from a ninth grader - well mostly to start where they are at and work at progressing. For one, that was getting words onto paper at all. A paragraph was a struggle. His writing sounded like a 3rd grader, his younger siblings could write much better. He's very smart with learning dysabilities, so it was all about teaching him to get around his disabilities and write at all. Through many Brave Writer classes, he's now able to write a very good college paper (though it remains very difficult).

 

Kidwriter Intermediate IS a high school class and sounds like a fine place to start. It will focus more on what is said and how it is said rather than structure. I'd recommend Expository Essay after Kidwriter Int.

[Penguin]

I wish they called it something else. Kidswrite just sounds too juvenile for high school. My son took it second semester of 8th and there were high school students in his class.

[Matryoshka]

Kidwriter Intermediate IS a high school class and sounds like a fine place to start. It will focus more on what is said and how it is said rather than structure. I'd recommend Expository Essay after Kidwriter Int.

 

I think I'm going to enroll dd15 in Kidswrite Intermediate.  At first I didn't think I would, because she does already know how to write an essay and do MLA formatting.  But her writing is perfunctory and a bit lackluster.  After talking to Julie B, who strongly recommended I sign her up for KWI, I agreed.  I think what she most needs to work on is voice, to make the rather formulaic writing she's doing better, more than taking another class that teaches steps/parts of an essay.  If she actually comes out of the class feeling even the tiniest bit excited about writing rather than thinking of it as a tedious chore, that will be a huge win.

 

I wish they called it something else. Kidswrite just sounds too juvenile for high school. My son took it second semester of 8th and there were high school students in his class.

 

I do agree with this.  It's why I hesitated to sign her up.  It sounds very middle-school.  I'm happy to hear from someone else upthread that there were a lot of 15yos in the class when they took it.

[AppleGreen]

I wish they called it something else. Kidswrite just sounds too juvenile for high school. My son took it second semester of 8th and there were high school students in his class.

Agreed. My 9th grader took it last fall. It was fine. I am not sure how much was gleaned, but it was a good class to boost confidence in various skill areas.

 

Expository Essay was done in the spring and was awesome. It has offered a great "blueprint" for us to follow for the final papers of the year. Unfortunately, my child has not transferred the skills from that class to the extent I would like. I wish we would have done it sooner in the year so I could have offered more practice using the techniques from that class and thus help cement the skills. My kid just needs an insane amount of repetition before transfer occurs. Poor first trial and error kid!

 

My current plan is to have my rising 7th grader take KWI in fall of 8th grade and EE in the spring of 8th. That child turns 14 early in the school year and I imagine will have a string grasp of the skills covered by EE at that point. Of course that is a year and a half away and at this point in my career as a hs'ing mom, I have learned not to plan too far ahead! 

[Loesje22000]

 

I do agree with this. It's why I hesitated to sign her up. It sounds very middle-school. I'm happy to hear from someone else upthread that there were a lot of 15yos in the class when they took it.

We also had some 16-17yo in the class, who were writing very well.

Dd was intimidated by their writings :)

 

14-15 yo is definetly not the older side of the course.