"Junk" in the high school boys locker room

[hornblower]

Is there no way for a parent to file a complaint with the principal, explain the issue, and request that the areas/activities have more active adult supervision? 

Done right, the principal should not disclose to the athletics department who the complainant was. The anti bullying and anti sexual harassment protocols here allow for, and in some cases require, confidentiality regarding complaints. 


 

[Bluegoat]

Really, if the boy wants to do something, he should talk to the coach as a start unless he is a complete jerk.  It might be pretty simple to tone down the situation significantly just by having an adult come in now and then when it isn't expected, or having someone in authority "catch" them in their inappropriate talk.

 

He could also say something to the kids, but I think that it is very intimidating for some kids, and really it's very possible the others won't listen anyway.

 

ETA _ that is to say, unless he knows the coach is a jerk.

 

ETA 2 - I would never start off by making a written complaint - it is too easy for such things to take on a life of their own beyond what you want.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Bluegoat

[LucyStoner]

This is not new. My father is north of 70, attended Catholic school through 12th grade and played sports. He relates many similar sounding stories.

 

Not saying it is right but it sure ain't new.

[poppy]

In your husband's day - and my husband's day - it wasn't happening like this. It was as you say, some teasing and talking about girls.  

 

It is the culture that has coarsened and obviously, this filters down to the kids if the parents let it into the home (media) or just if everyone else at school does. 

 

 

Baloney.  I mean, your husband and your father may not have had these experiences. Or, they chose not to relate it to you. But this sure ain't new.  Yes kids have access to much more graphic images than they used to 40, 50, 60 years ago. But today's young men didn't invent crudeness and objectification.  I'd also venture to say it's not worse now that teens experience awareness campaigns about how domestic violence is not ok and that no means no.

[Bluegoat]

Yes, as others have said, this is not new.  Not everyone experienced it, but if you happen to get in a group where it happens, it was never nice.

 

When I was in grade 6, the class I was in was a bit like that. Not the physical aspect, but what you might describe as "loose talk" really very inappropriate from an adult point of view, probably disturbing to some of the kids.  And probably more among the girls than the boys.

 

A friend of mine who teaches that age tells me this is not uncommon - grade 6 is variable, they can be more like little kids, or more like over-sexed teens, and the whole group gets pulled one way or the other based on the dominant kids.

[MegP]

nm

Edited May 10, 2016 by MegP

[Farrar]

I'm confident no guy accidently raped or assaulted a gal bc he just didn't understand the concept of consent or was confused bc he didn't get to have an explicit conversation about it first. I think that's total rubbish excuse making for offenders.

 

I disagree. When boys get into an atmosphere like the one in the OP's locker room, where boys and men constantly talk about how women "want it" or are "asking for it" when they do certain things and they're constantly hearing from other males about their intention to "do" this girl or that, when men are being told they "deserve" girls in a locker room like that. Yes, I think it forms an impression on young teens and I think they are more likely to become sex offenders if someone doesn't intervene and talk about sex and consent more clearly to them. We know this - it's been a feature of so many teenage and college assault cases that boys think that a girl who's passed out can give consent or that a girl who says no really means yes or that once she says yes to one thing that they then have permission to do anything. If you don't tell kids this stuff, they don't know it.

 

That's the connection to sex ed and this locker room situation. Right now, probably there are a couple of bad eggs in there and a lot of boys trying to feel their way into what's the right way to talk about sex. What's the right way to talk about girls and women. What's the right way to get a girlfriend or be in love. So, obviously, step one would be, cut in there and break up the behavior, make it clear that it's school grounds, still technically school or team time, not acceptable. Plus the physicality could lead to other issues, as discussed. But without additionally providing the positive message of good sex ed and clear talk about consent, then it's only a half solution. The kids get the message that "this is not okay" - but what *is* okay? And often the behavior and the talk just moves elsewhere.

[Murphy101]

I can only disagree.

 

I think that attempts to excuse abusers.

 

Oh those poor young men, they just need to understand sex better and be told they aren't being nice. Of course once they understand that, they will totally not be bullies and abusers anymore.

 

I think it's good schools have anti sexual harassment and bully policies bc it does let them know, or should, that the establishment won't tolerate that behavior. So it should, in theory, at least make that environment a bit safer.

 

But I don't think for one minute it changes the interior view of that person from someone who is okay instigating abuse to someone who thinks it's just awful and wrong. It means they have to hide their awfulness and restrain their behavior inclinations in social places, which is good too IMO.

 

I don't know why you keep talking about explicit sex conversations. You have no idea at all whether those boys have plenty of that or none. Sex is rather explicitly available just about anywhere these days, including many schools, so I'm having a difficult time finding that to be a creditable justification for their behavior.

[Murphy101]

This isn't new, but it usually wasn't socially acceptable either. Men quickly learn there's places and people where it won't be appreciated or tolerated. So did it happen? Yes. Was it considered totally okay and the norm for all guys to act like that? No, it wasn't.

 

Those in charge need to step up and put an end to it, to set the better standard.

 

Which is what would have happened most of the time in my husband's and his dad's day. And the times it didn't happen would have been reacted to similiar to how many are in this thread. Angry and upset at people who are supposed to be enforcing discipline and social standards not doing their jobs.

 

And heck yeah, the school is primed for a lawsuit if they don't step up. Because there's little doubt this is a hostile environment and whether it is new or not, it is not acceptable today.

[LucyStoner]

This isn't new, but it usually wasn't socially acceptable either. Men quickly learn there's places and people where it won't be appreciated or tolerated. So did it happen? Yes. Was it considered totally okay and the norm for all guys to act like that? No, it wasn't.

 

Those in charge need to step up and put an end to it, to set the better standard.

 

 

Let's not pretend that our culture has a long history of repudiating misogynistic or bullying bs from adolescent boys. If anything, we have a history of ignoring it or encouraging it. I've heard from older men like my dad that objecting to it merited the complainer a spot as the number one target even by the adults. Along the lines of man up and deal with it boy...

[poppy]

I disagree. When boys get into an atmosphere like the one in the OP's locker room, where boys and men constantly talk about how women "want it" or are "asking for it" when they do certain things and they're constantly hearing from other males about their intention to "do" this girl or that, when men are being told they "deserve" girls in a locker room like that. Yes, I think it forms an impression on young teens and I think they are more likely to become sex offenders if someone doesn't intervene and talk about sex and consent more clearly to them. We know this - it's been a feature of so many teenage and college assault cases that boys think that a girl who's passed out can give consent or that a girl who says no really means yes or that once she says yes to one thing that they then have permission to do anything. If you don't tell kids this stuff, they don't know it.

 

That's the connection to sex ed and this locker room situation. Right now, probably there are a couple of bad eggs in there and a lot of boys trying to feel their way into what's the right way to talk about sex. What's the right way to talk about girls and women. What's the right way to get a girlfriend or be in love. So, obviously, step one would be, cut in there and break up the behavior, make it clear that it's school grounds, still technically school or team time, not acceptable. Plus the physicality could lead to other issues, as discussed. But without additionally providing the positive message of good sex ed and clear talk about consent, then it's only a half solution. The kids get the message that "this is not okay" - but what *is* okay? And often the behavior and the talk just moves elsewhere.

 

Rape culture. People hate the term but it's an actual phenomenon. 

It's not an excuse.  Doesn't change the consequences.  But pretending it doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.

[Murphy101]

Let's not pretend that our culture has a long history of repudiating misogynistic or bullying bs from adolescent boys. If anything, we have a history of ignoring it or encouraging it. I've heard from older men like my dad that objecting to it merited the complainer a spot as the number one target even by the adults. Along the lines of man up and deal with it boy...

I think that certainly did happen too. Not denying it. But it's certainly improved in the last couple generations and most men (such as my dh, and his dad and one of his grandfathers) would rememebr those things are perpetuated by jerks. My dad and brother was and is one of those jerks so I'm not at all in denial that there are plenty of men like that. If you'll note my posts, I'm very clear I think there is a hostile environment in the OP situation and I blame that largely on the staff perpetuating exactly what you describe. Either bc they are just too lazy to the job or bc they think it's okay.

 

My disagreement is that we also need not pretend that classes on anti bullying or consent classes and lectures stop boys and men like that from still being boys and men like that. It only lets them know they can't be obvious about it around those people or in that place. I do not for one second think it actually changes the attitude of bullies or men who would assault/rape someone.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Murphy101

[TranquilMind]

Baloney.  I mean, your husband and your father may not have had these experiences. Or, they chose not to relate it to you. But this sure ain't new.  Yes kids have access to much more graphic images than they used to 40, 50, 60 years ago. But today's young men didn't invent crudeness and objectification.  I'd also venture to say it's not worse now that teens experience awareness campaigns about how domestic violence is not ok and that no means no.

No, they did not have those experiences.  Yes, kids have free access to hideous stuff right in their phones today, something which was never possible before, when getting access to porn meant stealing a Playboy if you found it (which was in no way comparable to the horrendous crap that is available today).  

 

Yes, it is far worse today.   Crudeness and objectification has always occurred but its depth and depravity on a widespread scale - and unopposed by responsible adults - is worse today.

[HRAAB]

This is not new. My father is north of 70, attended Catholic school through 12th grade and played sports. He relates many similar sounding stories.

 

Not saying it is right but it sure ain't new.

 

Of course, this isn't new behavior, and just because my dh didn't experience it where he attended school, doesn't mean it wasn't going on.  He did say there was usually a coach around who would have squashed that behavior very quickly.

 

What I'm curious about is how many boys are actually comfortable with this behavior?  I would think - hope - that even greater number of boys today would not be okay with it than were 40 years ago when dh was playing sports in high school.  I keep thinking we've made some progress against misogynistic attitudes and the objectifying of women among young men.  That's where I feel rather clueless since I don't have boys.  The boys my girls are friends with appear to be respectful of girls, but who knows what they do when they're alone.  My dh has always been disgusted by the objectifying of women.  It's not something he could have ignored when he was in school.  He would have said something or quit.  He just doesn't have any patience for that.  But, maybe he's the odd man out.  I don't know.

 

I would hope that the greater majority of guys are disgusted by that kind of behavior, but are maybe afraid to speak up and take a stand.  If most guys don't approve (and that's what I choose to believe), I wish they would recognize the power they have in their numbers to put a stop to this.  Then again, maybe I'm totally out of touch.

[poppy]

No, they did not have those experiences. Yes, kids have free access to hideous stuff right in their phones today, something which was never possible before, when getting access to porn meant stealing a Playboy if you found it (which was in no way comparable to the horrendous crap that is available today).

 

Yes, it is far worse today. Crudeness and objectification has always occurred but its depth and depravity on a widespread scale - and unopposed by responsible adults - is worse today.

The history of porn is a lot less mild than you think. And no , men were not all gentlemen back before R rated movies. Not as public sure as heck doesn't mean nonexistent. Or even rare.

[Bluegoat]

Of course, this isn't new behavior, and just because my dh didn't experience it where he attended school, doesn't mean it wasn't going on.  He did say there was usually a coach around who would have squashed that behavior very quickly.

 

What I'm curious about is how many boys are actually comfortable with this behavior?  I would think - hope - that even greater number of boys today would not be okay with it than were 40 years ago when dh was playing sports in high school.  I keep thinking we've made some progress against misogynistic attitudes and the objectifying of women among young men.  That's where I feel rather clueless since I don't have boys.  The boys my girls are friends with appear to be respectful of girls, but who knows what they do when they're alone.  My dh has always been disgusted by the objectifying of women.  It's not something he could have ignored when he was in school.  He would have said something or quit.  He just doesn't have any patience for that.  But, maybe he's the odd man out.  I don't know.

 

I would hope that the greater majority of guys are disgusted by that kind of behavior, but are maybe afraid to speak up and take a stand.  If most guys don't approve (and that's what I choose to believe), I wish they would recognize the power they have in their numbers to put a stop to this.  Then again, maybe I'm totally out of touch.

 

Probably many aren't comfortable. 

 

But I think often there are factors that aren't directly connected to the subject that are factors.  The tendency for example to want to take the talk to the next level, not because it is seen as having any meaning, but just to get one over on the others.  Often it can start out as a joke or silly, and then gets worse, but the people still think it is about being silly. 

 

The other thing is, I think most of us, though we would like to think it isn't true, over time can come to see all kinds of things as normal - things that we ourselves would have thought of as horrible before.  There is pretty significant experimental evidence to suggest this, and I think just looking at people's experiences in those kind of situations where they become a little isolated shows it - people in prisons, wars, various institutional settings, can so easily have a change or dulling about their perception of situations. 

 

If boys locker room talk seems cut off from other aspects of daily life, I think it can very easily take on a life of its own.

[hornblower]

The proliferation of strip clubs in large cities makes me think not much progress has been made in this area. And that's just the tip of the iceburg if you add in prostitution and everything beyond. The fact that I have heard women IRL and in the media say they are okay with their husbands frequenting strip clubs or watching porn makes me think we have a long road to go in the objectification department.......progress has to start somewhere though. 

 

I think if anything there has been an erosion in many areas because of the schism in feminism over whether to support sex work as a valid and 'empowering' choice, or whether to sex work is by definition exploitation.

 

Right now, the former flavour of feminism is louder & more prevalent & getting more support.  

 

 

 

[HRAAB]

Probably many aren't comfortable. 

 

But I think often there are factors that aren't directly connected to the subject that are factors.  The tendency for example to want to take the talk to the next level, not because it is seen as having any meaning, but just to get one over on the others.  Often it can start out as a joke or silly, and then gets worse, but the people still think it is about being silly. 

 

The other thing is, I think most of us, though we would like to think it isn't true, over time can come to see all kinds of things as normal - things that we ourselves would have thought of as horrible before.  There is pretty significant experimental evidence to suggest this, and I think just looking at people's experiences in those kind of situations where they become a little isolated shows it - people in prisons, wars, various institutional settings, can so easily have a change or dulling about their perception of situations. 

 

If boys locker room talk seems cut off from other aspects of daily life, I think it can very easily take on a life of its own.

 

Yeah, sadly I agree.

[Farrar]

I can only disagree.

 

I think that attempts to excuse abusers.

 

Oh those poor young men, they just need to understand sex better and be told they aren't being nice. Of course once they understand that, they will totally not be bullies and abusers anymore.

 

I think it's good schools have anti sexual harassment and bully policies bc it does let them know, or should, that the establishment won't tolerate that behavior. So it should, in theory, at least make that environment a bit safer.

 

But I don't think for one minute it changes the interior view of that person from someone who is okay instigating abuse to someone who thinks it's just awful and wrong. It means they have to hide their awfulness and restrain their behavior inclinations in social places, which is good too IMO.

 

I don't know why you keep talking about explicit sex conversations. You have no idea at all whether those boys have plenty of that or none. Sex is rather explicitly available just about anywhere these days, including many schools, so I'm having a difficult time finding that to be a creditable justification for their behavior.

 

Saying that better education would prevent abuse is excusing rape? Hardly. Your argument implies to me that education and culture don't have a role in forming individuals' actions. And I reject that wholeheartedly. Education makes a huge difference in so many ways for so many things.

 

Telling someone "That's wrong!" and not providing any context, any support, any help, any education about why it's wrong and what's right... that's a recipe for disaster. That's what causes this sort of culture in the first place.

 

While I have no idea if these boys in particular have had good sex ed in their lives - and by good sex ed, I mean sex ed that's clear and detailed - however, as a society, we struggle to talk to our kids in healthy ways about sex. And we know that the sex ed provided by the vast majority of schools is not effective against teenage pregnancy or STD rates. Studies repeatedly show that.

 

Your argument seems to imply that these boys are "awful" boys. End stop. Like, they were born bad or something. But I doubt it. They're being misled by a locker room culture that is unhealthy and bad. But the remedy for bad locker room education is good education, not condemnation and punishment. (ETA: It may be that some individuals in this group should be punished in the end... but for that to happen, first the coaches or teachers at the school need to intervene. It's not fair to punish kids for talk and consensual acts that the adults were allowing over time by not stepping in in the first place. And then, if the behavior continues, if the physical acts ever become nonconsensual, then, yes, punish them. But an overall punitive approach is not going to turn out healthy young men - it might stop this in the locker room, but it'll move somewhere else.)

Edited May 10, 2016 by Farrar

[Farrar]

Gah. I'm still just astounded that anyone thinks that saying we need to change the culture in the locker room is somehow excusing rape.

 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, people.

[Murphy101]

The proliferation of strip clubs in large cities makes me think not much progress has been made in this area. And that's just the tip of the iceburg if you add in prostitution and everything beyond. The fact that I have heard women IRL and in the media say they are okay with their husbands frequenting strip clubs or watching porn makes me think we have a long road to go in the objectification department.......progress has to start somewhere though.

My opinion is that we have not.

 

It's just become something you aren't supposed to discuss in polite society, but everyone seems to be okay with it elsewhere. What's more, I think women are far more expected to not act like prudes and be okay with it too. Like it's some kind of sick progress to some if women have reached a point of being willing participants in their degradation.

 

ETA: I'm very glad it's at least impolite in public. I'll take what I can get. But media suggests that's the best I'm got to get at this time. And sometimes not even that much.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

Gah. I'm still just astounded that anyone thinks that saying we need to change the culture in the locker room is somehow excusing rape.

 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, people.

You are stretching considerably to think I'm against changing locker room culture. I am very much for it.

 

What I have said is to not kid yourself that all those boys need is someone to thoroughly explain how and why they are wrong to change their desire to do it anyways.

 

I don't think they are bad boys necessarily. It's just as likely they are talking smack just so they don't become targets. But men who want to abuse women sexually don't spontaneously decide to do it at 21 and I see no evidence that any culture has been able to convince them not to do it.

[Bluegoat]

I think if anything there has been an erosion in many areas because of the schism in feminism over whether to support sex work as a valid and 'empowering' choice, or whether to sex work is by definition exploitation.

 

Right now, the former flavour of feminism is louder & more prevalent & getting more support.  

 

 

 

 

Hmm, I'm not sure about that.  The latter seems very healthy to me.

 

Though what I find really weird is when the two are combined.  It's empowering to use your sexuality to make money - especially if you are a top actress taking off your clothes for a body positive photo shoot.  On the other hand, the men who look at page three girls and such are cretins.

[Bluegoat]

Gah. I'm still just astounded that anyone thinks that saying we need to change the culture in the locker room is somehow excusing rape.

 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, people.

 

I am not surprised.

 

Any time there is controversy about things like allegations of sexual assault where the consent issues seem less than obvious, there seems to be a group that wants to claim that is it always crystal clear and that the male involved knew what he was doing and just didn't care.  The possibility that it could be unclear either because the people involved weren't well informed, or for any other factor, seems to be dismissed as impossible.

 

I tend to see it as very much part of the tendency of our culture to demonize people who do things that are considered culturally taboo.  They do wrong, always, because they are evil people, for the right-thinkers it is always clear.  It makes dealing with them so much simpler.  Right at the moment sex crimes seem to be getting this treatment.

[Bluegoat]

You are stretching considerably to think I'm against changing locker room culture. I am very much for it.

 

What I have said is to not kid yourself that all those boys need is someone to thoroughly explain how and why they are wrong to change their desire to do it anyways.

 

I don't think they are bad boys necessarily. It's just as likely they are talking smack just so they don't become targets. But men who want to abuse women sexually don't spontaneously decide to do it at 21 and I see no evidence that any culture has been able to convince them not to do it.

 

What % of boys who talk that way as teens end up as abusers?  Of those that do, how many think, "Gee, being an abuser is a-ok."

 

Probably if some guy is so twisted in his values or amoral that he thinks it is totally ok to abuse others for his own purposes, no one will reach him.  I think that sort of person is relatively rare.

[Tsuga]

I guess we just disagree, as I don't see that as "all he can do," not by a long shot.

 

Edited to add, I totally agree, Tara.

 

There are two kinds of wrongs: those that really only hurt yourself, and those that hurt others.

 

Sexual harassment creates an environment in which some people cannot participate because they are threatened. Since sex can be used as violence (sadly), while it is fine to do what you want with CONSENTING ADULTS or consenting people of your own age within reason, it is not fine to make other people feel like they are going to be targeted with that activity.

 

 

In the public space, public school, or schools which benefit from public largesse (501 c 3s) they cannot allow discrimination based on religion, race, sex, sexual orientation, etc.

 

Just as not hiring gays is illegal, so is not hiring Christians. Just as making the workplace impossible for Jews is illegal, it is illegal to make the workplace impossible for women.

 

Amazingly enough, people on polar ends of the spectrum benefit from these basic rules: do what you want, but you can't discriminate with public funds.

 

SO I think that it is right and acceptable for OP's son, if he believes the sex talk to be making him want to leave, to petition to the coach to ask them to tone it down and not talk about women as exploits, or men for that matter.

 

However, sadly, there is no end to cruelty in this world and they may decide to target him instead. It would be a sad lesson to learn indeed and I hope that doesn't happen but if it did it would not be OP's son's fault.

 

 

 

This is all taking OP at her word and assuming that there's no exaggeration here. I certainly hope it's not that bad but I'm not in a place to judge.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Tsuga

[Tsuga]

What % of boys who talk that way as teens end up as abusers?  Of those that do, how many think, "Gee, being an abuser is a-ok."

 

Probably if some guy is so twisted in his values or amoral that he thinks it is totally ok to abuse others for his own purposes, no one will reach him.  I think that sort of person is relatively rare.

 

But a LOT of young men push boundaries and then get guidance. Just like telling a toddler "no, stop!" and even removing them from playgroup doesn't work the first time but makes a difference in the long run, little things like enforcing boundaries, giving lectures, letting them know that it's not okay, will change the acceptability of those behaviors for most of the boys.

 

Yes, there are sociopaths.

 

It is glaringly obvious that social change is not only possible but it is visible before our very eyes, and so is character building.

 

I would agree that a lecture or a new policy will not change anything overnight but it does communicate to these young men that what they are doing is noticed; that the adults in charge agree with those who think it's inappropriate; that they need to control themselves more; that they've gone too far.

 

They won't be like "Okay I guess I'll stop acting like a teen boy now." But they will have evidence of a society beyond the crappy little clique they are in now and it DOES make a difference.

 

The workplace has changed massively, just MASSIVELY over the past 30 years. Whereas asking sexual favors from women in inferior positions used to be so commonplace as to be cliche, I now know that I can walk into a job with a male supervisor and if that happens I will quite simply go to the law and other women and we will win. Period. Women can wear what they want without fear of sexual harassment in many (though not all) workplaces.

 

That was not achieved by assuming that people are sociopaths or not sociopaths. It was a long haul.

 

But now I walk into a government office, a tech firm, my partner's firm, my sister works in a hospital, and even in the military, and women are treated with so much more respect. It is because people stood up for themselves and sacrificed.

 

I don't see this situation in exactly the same way--but I think OP's son has the right to play a sport and participate without being asked to participate in grossly offensive, hateful, or sexually violent discussions, no matter what his religion. Those are our basic societal values.

[J-rap]

Our town must be stuck in the last century or something, because I know that a lot of that behavior would never be tolerated at the ps here.

[Tsuga]

Our town must be stuck in the last century or something, because I know that a lot of that behavior would never be tolerated at the ps here.

 

We are aiming for the next century and it wouldn't be tolerated here, either. Well, one hopes not. :(

[Lanny]

I attended a very large High School (approximately 2400 students) and we had Phys Ed classes 5 days a week.  I do not remember anything like the OP described.  When I grew up, Homosexuals were "in the closet".  What was described by the OP may be "playful" activity by Homosexuals who are "out of the closet"? 

[The Girls' Mom]

The coach needs to step up and put a stop to it.

 

There is a case here locally about a sports team that had the normal culture of hazing, boys will be boys behavior.  It escalated into a boy getting raped by several of his team members with a pool cue while they were at a cabin for a team event.  The boy ended up needing surgery.  The attitude from many that were involved in these kids lives?  It was just boys being boys and it got out of hand.  A boy was raped and it "just got out of hand"?!?!  

 

There is no good reason to let that kind of behavior go unchecked, regardless of whether or not it has always happened.  

[Bluegoat]

But a LOT of young men push boundaries and then get guidance. Just like telling a toddler "no, stop!" and even removing them from playgroup doesn't work the first time but makes a difference in the long run, little things like enforcing boundaries, giving lectures, letting them know that it's not okay, will change the acceptability of those behaviors for most of the boys.

 

Yes, there are sociopaths.

 

It is glaringly obvious that social change is not only possible but it is visible before our very eyes, and so is character building.

 

I would agree that a lecture or a new policy will not change anything overnight but it does communicate to these young men that what they are doing is noticed; that the adults in charge agree with those who think it's inappropriate; that they need to control themselves more; that they've gone too far.

 

They won't be like "Okay I guess I'll stop acting like a teen boy now." But they will have evidence of a society beyond the crappy little clique they are in now and it DOES make a difference.

 

The workplace has changed massively, just MASSIVELY over the past 30 years. Whereas asking sexual favors from women in inferior positions used to be so commonplace as to be cliche, I now know that I can walk into a job with a male supervisor and if that happens I will quite simply go to the law and other women and we will win. Period. Women can wear what they want without fear of sexual harassment in many (though not all) workplaces.

 

That was not achieved by assuming that people are sociopaths or not sociopaths. It was a long haul.

 

But now I walk into a government office, a tech firm, my partner's firm, my sister works in a hospital, and even in the military, and women are treated with so much more respect. It is because people stood up for themselves and sacrificed.

 

I don't see this situation in exactly the same way--but I think OP's son has the right to play a sport and participate without being asked to participate in grossly offensive, hateful, or sexually violent discussions, no matter what his religion. Those are our basic societal values.

 

Yes, I tend to agree, but that was my point - that addressing it as an educational issues, with a side of "cut it out you are being jerks and that is not acceptable" is the best way for people in charge to deal with it.

 

This idea that education - that is showing stupid kids how to behave -  won't make a difference because people who want to be abusers will be abusers makes no sense to me.  Those people are a minority.  These are kids who are inexperienced and who have immature judgement and who tend to let talk get out of hand.  Even if no one intervenes, probably many of them will grow out of this sort of thing.

 

Expelling the kids, or charging them, or even threatening to do so, is way way over the top IMO. 

 

For the kid in the OP it isn't quite as simple because he obviously isn't in a position of authority, and would have to pass on the responsibility to someone like a coach which is a significant decision for a kid.  As far as saying something to them as a peer, there are all kinds of reasons he might not want to do that, some of them quite legitimate.

[umsami]

Way late to the party....

 

Teen boys in towels walking to showers through a public place would not phase me.... assuming that the towels stayed on.  However, if other boys were removing their friends' towels as a joke, then I would consider that harassment and they should be written up or whatever. (This should also be clearly explained to them before.)

 

The mounting each other, etc..... boys have been doing this stuff for a long long time.  I can understand why your son is uncomfortable.  I also understand that it may not really be consensual for some of the boys involved.... meaning that they're not comfortable with it, but don't want to speak up to be labeled whatever.  I think that the school needs to monitor the lockers and situation better.  I would frame it to them, even in an anonymous note, that this is a lawsuit waiting to happen regarding sexual abuse/hazing/whatever.