"Junk" in the high school boys locker room

[TwoEdgedSword]

Please don't quote me as I'll be removing this most likely. Boys will be boys and yadaydada. But I didn't realize how much things have changed. Boys are talking about how they are going to "mount" girls and then demonstrating on each other with only their underwear on or less in the boys high school locker room. There are varsity guys doing this but 9th graders are in there, some wide eyed as you might suspect. Also twerking, naked, much of the time.

 

This would not be ok for my son. He's used to occasional foul language and off color stuff from playing other sports at non-public schools, but there seem to be no boundaries here.

It's objectifying the girls they go to school with and in demonstrating on each other, it's veering toward homo-eroticism. Neither are okay with my son.

 

I know there are only a couple other kids in there that are not ok with this. Nothing is being done or said though. If it was a workplace, this would be a place of intimidation and sexual harassment. But I know it's not and those standards don't apply.

 

Thoughts?

[SparklyUnicorn]

My thought twoedgedsword is that boys have always been doing crap like that.  They did it when I was in school 100 years ago.  This is not to say it's nice, right, or generally appreciated, but to say this is something new, I'm not so sure.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I tend to agree with Sparkley.  I don't think this ubiquitous, but it has long gone on in some places.  It probably has more to do with the school you happen to be in, and the group of boys that happens to be there during those years.

[Haiku]

Where my son plays hockey, some of the older boys have started walking from the locker room to the showers in nothing but a towel. It is the cool, edgy thing to do. This means they are walking through a public volleyball court that is also visible from the upstairs snack area. 

 

There have been complaints, but it has continued. If I were the coach, I would tell my team that anyone caught doing this would be off the team, and I would follow through.

 

I can't fathom why this hasn't been dealt with swiftly and decisively. When I am standing around waiting for my son, I don't want to see teen boys walking by in a towel. It's totally inappropriate.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I tend to agree with Sparkley.  I don't think this ubiquitous, but it has long gone on in some places.  It probably has more to do with the school you happen to be in, and the group of boys that happens to be there during those years.

 

I feel as if there is a lot more cracking down on this sort of thing and more sensitivity towards the trauma it can cause some people (both males and females).  But an increase in the amount this happens, I don't think so.  I do remember some crazy things from high school.  The big thing right off the bat starting at around 6th grade was boys snapping bras, looking up skirts, and pressing their bodies up on girls (when not welcome).  I remember the school banning hugging.  Hugging of any kind was forbidden.  Hazing rituals have been also going on for a long time, but now it seems we hear about this no longer being tolerated.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Where my son plays hockey, some of the older boys have started walking from the locker room to the showers in nothing but a towel. It is the cool, edgy thing to do. This means they are walking through a public volleyball court that is also visible from the upstairs snack area. 

 

There have been complaints, but it has continued. If I were the coach, I would tell my team that anyone caught doing this would be off the team, and I would follow through.

 

I can't fathom why this hasn't been dealt with swiftly and decisively. When I am standing around waiting for my son, I don't want to see teen boys walking by in a towel. It's totally inappropriate.

 

Intention is certainly everything, but in some cultures nobody would bat a lash over this.

[Janie Grace]

Where my son plays hockey, some of the older boys have started walking from the locker room to the showers in nothing but a towel. It is the cool, edgy thing to do. This means they are walking through a public volleyball court that is also visible from the upstairs snack area. 

 

Why is there a public volleyball court separating the showers from the locker room? Don't showers usually adjoin locker rooms???

[Haiku]

Intention is certainly everything, but in some cultures nobody would bat a lash over this.

 

Yes, when I lived in a certain western European country, things were much more liberal in this regard. That's fine, if it's your culture, but it's not the culture here. 

 

It's especially awesome when the boys attempt to lift one other's towels to swat one another's rumps or yank other boys' towels off entirely.

 

In this culture, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Haiku]

Why is there a public volleyball court separating the showers from the locker room? Don't showers usually adjoin locker rooms???

 

Extra locker rooms were built to accommodate an influx of teams. They are not the original locker rooms that were built with the facility.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why is there a public volleyball court separating the showers from the locker room? Don't showers usually adjoin locker rooms???

 

Yeah that seems pretty darn inconvenient!

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Why is there a public volleyball court separating the showers from the locker room? Don't showers usually adjoin locker rooms???

 

This has me puzzled as well.  Normally walking from the locker room to the shower wouldn't involve being in the public view. 

[Sarah CB]

I feel as if there is a lot more cracking down on this sort of thing and more sensitivity towards the trauma it can cause some people (both males and females).  But an increase in the amount this happens, I don't think so.  I do remember some crazy things from high school.  The big thing right off the bat starting at around 6th grade was boys snapping bras, looking up skirts, and pressing their bodies up on girls (when not welcome).  I remember the school banning hugging.  Hugging of any kind was forbidden.  Hazing rituals have been also going on for a long time, but now it seems we hear about this no longer being tolerated.

 

When I was in 7th grade boys used to give girls "purple nurples."  They would squeeze and twist girls' nipples.  It hurt - sometimes it bruised.  Very annoying, although it didn't cause me any lasting trauma or anything.

 

By 8th grade, the boys had moved on to asking for a hug and then wrapping one arm around the girl to pull her close while the other hand felt her breast.  At least that didn't hurt, but was also annoying and unasked for.  

 

Oh - I forgot - in elementary school every day of the week had some kind of theme that we made up.  I can't remember any of the others, but Friday was Flip Up Skirts Day. We never wore skirts on Fridays.

 

Also adding - this was in three different schools.  I went to elementary on one side of the city and then moved to another province for grade 6 and 7 and then moved back to my old city, but across town from where i first lived, for grade 8.  So it's not like it was just the same kids all along.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Sarah CB

[Bluegoat]

I remember a period in high school when a lot of boys seemed to take their shirts off at any plausible opportunity.  Kind of a "look at my new manly form" thing, I guess.  Some girls did the same sort of thing.

 

Kind of silly, and adults should rightly turn up their noses at it, but I think most grow out of it fairly soon.  By university we all thought those people were really immature (if we didn't even before then.)

 

Though going through the vollyball cout is pretty crass, and someone should probably make it clear it isn't acceptable.  One of the things I find interesting about many places in Europe compared to here is that in a locker rom, sauna, or at the beach, people are far more casual about nudity.  But in non-nude places, it is much more of a faux pas.  You don't see men wandering around Paris on a hot day with their shirts tucked into their belts. 

[Bluegoat]

Purple nurples were a guy/guy thing in my school.

[Sarah CB]

Purple nurples were a guy/guy thing in my school.

 

Lucky.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Extra locker rooms were built to accommodate an influx of teams. They are not the original locker rooms that were built with the facility.

 

Ah, that makes sense.

[TwoEdgedSword]

Ouch on the nurples thing. That is horrid.

[poppy]

Guys saying nasty things to each other  in earshot of innocent bystanders = not really against the rules, just annoying.

Guys doing nasty things to each other (consensually) in eyeshot of innocent bystanders = not really against the rules, just annoying.

 

Though I wouldn't call it "homoerotic". That is most definitely not a gay male fantasy being acted out there. It is a really ugly straight male fantasy.

 

Ideal world: the more decent kids in the locker room give enough stink eye and complaining that it's not fun for the idiots anymore.

Realistically: probably put up with it until the jerks graduate.

I do not LIKE that answer, but, I think that is the reality.

 

I don't see why seeing men in towels is bad unless they are teensy towels.

 

 

 

 

[Murphy101]

When I was in 7th grade boys used to give girls "purple nurples." They would squeeze and twist girls' nipples. It hurt - sometimes it bruised. Very annoying, although it didn't cause me any lasting trauma or anything.

 

By 8th grade, the boys had moved on to asking for a hug and then wrapping one arm around the girl to pull her close while the other hand felt her breast. At least that didn't hurt, but was also annoying and unasked for.

 

Oh - I forgot - in elementary school every day of the week had some kind of theme that we made up. I can't remember any of the others, but Friday was Flip Up Skirts Day. We never wore skirts on Fridays.

 

Also adding - this was in three different schools. I went to elementary on one side of the city and then moved to another province for grade 6 and 7 and then moved back to my old city, but across town from where i first lived, for grade 8. So it's not like it was just the same kids all along.

Yeah, but the guy knew he was risking a knee to the nuts, slap or punch for it too.

 

Or at least they quickly learned as much from me.

[Murphy101]

I ticks me off bc there are no adults telling them to quit acting like jerks.

 

Silence is often endorsement.

 

And the teen guys who speak out tend to become the brunt of bullying.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I ticks me off bc there are no adults telling them to quit acting like jerks.

 

Silence is often endorsement.

 

And the teen guys who speak out tend to become the brunt of bullying.

 

Probably because they aren't doing it in front of adults.

[poppy]

I ticks me off bc there are no adults telling them to quit acting like jerks.

 

Silence is often endorsement.

 

And the teen guys who speak out tend to become the brunt of bullying.

 

Agree on all points.

Doesn't that really sum it up? Silence is endorsement; lack of silence make you a target. 

Basically, high school SUCKS.

[Murphy101]

Probably because they aren't doing it in front of adults.

My son reported that they did, though the worst was when adults weren't there, what was done in the presence of adults was greeted with silence or even joining in on the laughter. Which for sure made them feel it was okay to be even more inappropriate when adults weren't around. Complaining to adults got them in more trouble and labeled as "too nice" - like that's supposed to be negative.

[Haiku]

I don't see why seeing men in towels is bad unless they are teensy towels.

 

They are not men. They are fourteen-year-old boys.

[Murphy101]

They are not men. They are fourteen-year-old boys.

I still wouldn't have a problem with that except they are unsupervised and immature. So yeah, where is the adult that should be expecting them to try things like, towel flips and tugs and thus either marches them over or lays down the law that heads will roll for the kid who humiliates someone by doing it?

[bolt.]

I can see why I wouldn't want my kid doing that sort of thing (not that I have any boys, or any teens)... but unless the talk is criminal (uttering threats) or the demonstration is non-consensual, I fail to see who is allegedly responsible to civilize this behaviour. Are there school rules against being uncivilized?

 

As you discribed it, is definitely not "intimidation" (unless someone is threatening to hurt others who are present to hear the threat?) or "sexual harassment" (unless it is directed towards someone present, who is a victim of some kind?)

 

Your son seems like he disapproves of their conduct, but, other than making him think they are idiots, their behaviour isn't actually impacting him at all. He is simply overhearing/observing other people behaving badly among themselves. It sounds mostly like a case of him noticing that he's a well-raised, civilized individual, but not everyone is. A timely life lesson, but nothing to be concerned about. You can mandate that your children overhear only wholesome things in public.

[TwoEdgedSword]

The concern is that some of the "consensual" behavior may not actually be. Someone above said something like silence is consent. And if one does say something they may be targeted by bullies. Some the guys being tweaked on or mounted may not be consenting, just afraid to speak up. It really seems like an atmosphere conducive to hazing, which is usually illegal.

[Haiku]

So yeah, where is the adult that should be expecting them to try things like, towel flips and tugs and thus either marches them over or lays down the law that heads will roll for the kid who humiliates someone by doing it?

 

It certainly won't be me. No way am I going to speak to boys in towels, because next thing you know someone will be accusing me of looking at their boys in towels. Staying far away from that!

 

I leave the volleyball area when the boy parade starts.

 

If my son ever did that ... well, let's just say that since he wishes to continue playing hockey, he won't do it, because we've discussed it and he knows what will happen if he does. 

 

(This is not his team, btw; it's the next oldest team.)

[Murphy101]

I don't consider a locker room public. And I bet they don't either or they wouldn't think they could get away with behaving that way.

 

And I don't consider that behavior to just be uncouth, it's more than that imnsho.

 

I would not presume it is consentual either. Because if the other guy doesn't laugh and go along, I bet it escalates to ugly in no time. In fact, every instance my son saw or was aware of where they didn't go along it got ugly for them.

[Murphy101]

It certainly won't be me. No way am I going to speak to boys in towels, because next thing you know someone will be accusing me of looking at their boys in towels. Staying far away from that!

 

I leave the volleyball area when the boy parade starts.

 

If my son ever did that ... well, let's just say that since he wishes to continue playing hockey, he won't do it, because we've discussed it and he knows what will happen if he does.

 

(This is not his team, btw; it's the next oldest team.)

Of course not. But that's what coaches and staff are for.

 

And yeah, I'm with you on how my sons know they'd better not even contemplate that kind of behavior too.

[abcmommy]

I just posted and it went into thin air.

 

This is not ok.  This is a lawsuit waiting to happen.  Google Carmel high school IN sex offenders

[Murphy101]

The concern is that some of the "consensual" behavior may not actually be. Someone above said something like silence is consent. And if one does say something they may be targeted by bullies. Some the guys being tweaked on or mounted may not be consenting, just afraid to speak up. It really seems like an atmosphere conducive to hazing, which is usually illegal.

Hazing! Yes. That's perfect descriptor. Very similiar. Either accept being his b___ to be "safely" included in the club or be subject to being a target is really not much of a consentual situation.

[bolt.]

So your main concern is that your son may be a bystander to the bullying of other boys? (And all the semi-sexual details and vocabulary were just kinda distracting?)

 

In that case, I wouldn't treat it as specialized behaviour at all, and I'd explore what tools the school has available to help bystanders act against bullies.

 

In this case, both the bullies and the plausible victims are much older than your son, and the plausible victims are not demonstrating distress (at least none has made it into your post). That really doesn't leave much role for a bystander: but there might be something.

 

I think your son's discomfort with nudity, discomfort with homoeroticism, and feelings about the dignity of women (who are being talked about behind their backs) are all misplaced.

 

Dignity for women is wonderful, but your son does not have the social position or power to defend the honour of every female from every rape "joke". He should keep an eye out for anything that *substsntially* indicates the intent of any boy to commit a crime. In situations where he has social influence, he should use it as his conscience dictates: to squash rapey idiocy.

 

Discomfort with nudity comes from family culture, and he can't expect it to matter to anyone at school.

 

Discomfort with homoeroticism is complex: culturally, religiously and personally (especially personally during puberty) but, the fact that some teens find heteroeroticism dandy and homoeroticism icky -- usually that's just plain bias, and therefore is meaningless. A public school can't ok heteto behaviour and discourage homosexual behaviour of the same type. (It would be discriminatory.)

 

So, if we get the red herrings out of the pool -- bottom line: you need to help your son distinguish between seeing things that he thinks good people don't do, and he wouldn't do (even things with their penises) vs. seeing people do things that actually victimize others, violate rules, or break laws (with or without their penises).

 

Does that make sense?

Edited May 9, 2016 by bolt.

[mamiof5]

This is not definitely a boys will be boys. This is a bunch of immature, disrespectful boys who are lacking direction, guidance and authority.

[Murphy101]

No, my husband and sons can't protect all of woman-kind from degrading acts or insults.

 

But yes, they shouldn't have to tolerate in silence other men doing that either.

 

There should not be any erotic anything going on in the lockers or showers of minors, multiplied times ten for school environments. I didn't get the impression that the nudity in and of itself as necessary in lockers and showers was an issue for her son.

 

That's a gross distortion and brushing off of the problem.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Murphy101

[TwoEdgedSword]

abcmommy, which "this" is not ok? The OP or something after it?

[HRAAB]

So your main concern is that your son may be a bystander to the bullying of other boys? (And all the semi-sexual details and vocabulary were just kinda distracting?)

 

In that case, I wouldn't treat it as specialized behaviour at all, and I'd explore what tools the school has available to help bystanders act against bullies.

 

In this case, both the bullies and the plausible victims are much older than your son, and the plausible victims are not demonstrating distress (at least none has made it into your post). That really doesn't leave much role for a bystander: but there might be something.

 

I think your son's discomfort with nudity, discomfort with homoeroticism, and feelings about the dignity of women (who are being talked about behind their backs) are all misplaced.

 

Dignity for women is wonderful, but your son does not have the social position or power to defend the honour of every female from every rape "joke". He should keep an eye out for anything that *substsntially* indicates the intent of any boy to commit a crime. In situations where he has social influence, he should use it as his conscience dictates: to squash rapey idiocy.

 

Discomfort with nudity comes from family culture, and he can't expect it to matter to anyone at school.

 

Discomfort with homoeroticism is complex: culturally, religiously and personally (especially personally during puberty) but, the fact that some teens find heteroeroticism dandy and homoeroticism icky -- usually that's just plain bias, and therefore is meaningless. A public school can't ok heteto behaviour and discourage homosexual behaviour of the same type. (It would be discriminatory.)

 

So, if we get the red herrings out of the pool -- bottom line: you need to help your son distinguish between seeing things that he thinks good people don't do, and he wouldn't do (even things with their penises) vs. seeing people do things that actually victimize others, violate rules, or break laws (with or without their penises).

 

Does that make sense?

 

How is his discomfort misplaced? Where should it be directed?  I'm not understanding this comment.

[TwoEdgedSword]

Bolt, I disagree with some of your assumptions in the OP and many of the premises underlying your own assertions. Just saying that because I don't want silence to indicate consent or agreement to your positions.

[goldberry]

I think your son's discomfort with nudity, discomfort with homoeroticism, and feelings about the dignity of women (who are being talked about behind their backs) are all misplaced.

 

 

 

I am honestly shocked by your statement.  So the fact that the women aren't hearing it makes it okay?  Any less of an insult to dignity?

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

 

And, I totally disagree that just because something "appears" consensual it is okay.  This is not the appropriate environment for that kind of behavior whether consensual or not (and I am doubting that it really is consensual for all parties.)

[MegP]

OP, Is this kind of behavior allowed by the coach/school?

[abcmommy]

abcmommy, which "this" is not ok? The OP or something after it?

The behavior in the OP.

 

Sorry, I got impatient after my longer post went into cyberspace.

 

The atmosphere described sounds a lot like this local case where "horsing around" led to sex crimes.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/indiana-teens-charged-abusing-younger-peer-locker-room/story?id=10730568

[abcmommy]

argh so there are TWO THREADS about junk.  ROFL confusion

[goldberry]

I honestly think that a tolerance for behavior in school that would normally be considered harassment or assault is (and has been) a huge problem in our education system.  I am not saying this particular incident the OP is describing is either of those, but it could certainly lead to that and is certainly inappropriate for a public educational facility.

 

Grown men become athletes and end up "tea-bagging" a female athletic coach....all of a sudden it's not okay when back in high school it was "just funny" or "boys being boys".  There should not be authority figures ignoring or tolerating that type of behavior.  It's laziness or just plain sexism on their part, and I consider it unacceptable.  

 

If I was forced to have my child in that environment, I would be raising holy hell.

[TwoEdgedSword]

MegP I would imagine there is some general language in a student handbook where this conduct would fall under as prohibited. But it appears that in reality it's known by the parents at least. Not sure about the administration and coaches.

[Okra]

Personally, I think the behavior in the OP's post is awful.  I would want more adult supervision and appropriate behavior.

[poppy]

Personally, I think the behavior in the OP's post is awful.  I would want more adult supervision and appropriate behavior.

 

I think everyone agrees on that.

[HRAAB]

This is a high school with students ranging in age from 14 to 18?  I can't believe that behavior is not against school rules.  Like another poster mentioned, it could be a lawsuit waiting to happen.  Where are the coaches/adults?

 

OP - your son's uncomfortable feelings are legitimate.  He does not have to be comfortable with that behavior.  And I don't know why he should have to swallow his discomfort and let it go.  I've always told my girls their feelings of discomfort are valid and not to ignore them.  I would do the same for a son.

[Murphy101]

I would be horrified if any of my sons or my husband felt comfortable with that.

 

That would imply it was so socially acceptable and okay that no one thought anything of it.

 

There's a horrifying thought about what basic standards of decency that place could be instilling in those young men.

[MegP]

OP, have you gone to the administration? That is where I would start.

[HRAAB]

I would be horrified if any of my sons or my husband felt comfortable with that.

 

That would imply it was so socially acceptable and okay that no one thought anything of it.

 

There's a horrifying thought about what basic standards of decency that place could be instilling in those young men.

 

Exactly.  If my dh were exposed to such behavior and he complained, people would listen to him.  Why does this high school have to put up with it.

 

We have enough multi million dollar lawsuits because of sexual harassment.  It's not acceptable behavior.