College Students Demand Free Tampons

[historically accurate]

they have a job through the school.  it's part of the scholarship package.  they're given a list of what jobs are available - then the students can apply to what interests them.  if absolutely nothing is open - they will find something for the scholarship students.  that's part of their aid package.

they work 10 hours -that's plenty for things like a  movie ticket or sanitary products.  and  a whole lot less time than sports demand.   (2d was in NCAA sports.  she quit because it took more time than school. she was there for an education.)

if a student can't handle a 10 hour job - they're not ready for college.  many of them  can easily spend far more time than that on extra-curriculars.    incidentally - when she graduated with her doc (different school. not on scholarship)  - she had half the debt of her peers because she'd learned how to handle money, and delay gratification.

I had 20 hours way back in the 90s. I don't know if that has changed or if it is up to the school for the limits. I had some real issues with how work study was assigned at my school as well. You couldn't apply as a freshman (incidentally the only year I did work study); upperclassmen could be chosen by professors, etc, to work in their area, but as a freshman, it was a lottery system.  Mine was horrible, no downtime, made all of my clothes stink - I worked the dishwashers in the cafeteria. My roommate also had 20 hours - she answered phones in the math department, which translated to 18 out of her 20 hours studying. 

[gardenmom5]

I had 20 hours way back in the 90s. I don't know if that has changed or if it is up to the school for the limits. I had some real issues with how work study was assigned at my school as well. You couldn't apply as a freshman (incidentally the only year I did work study); upperclassmen could be chosen by professors, etc, to work in their area, but as a freshman, it was a lottery system.  Mine was horrible, no downtime, made all of my clothes stink - I worked the dishwashers in the cafeteria. My roommate also had 20 hours - she answered phones in the math department, which translated to 18 out of her 20 hours studying. 

 

then that's the way your school ran it.

 

it  was part of the scholarship - that means freshmen too who have a scholarship. 1dd worked in an office.  2dd worked in the biolab all four years.  ended up doing a minor in biology.  (she only decided to do that in her senior year, so she didn't have enough time to do a senior project to make  it a true double major.)

[historically accurate]

then that's the way your school ran it.

 

it  was part of the scholarship - that means freshmen too who have a scholarship. 1dd worked in an office.  2dd worked in the biolab all four years.  ended up doing a minor in biology.  (she only decided to do that in her senior year, so she didn't have enough time to do a senior project to make  it a true double major.)

I was reacting to your assumption that those who couldn't hack workstudy shouldn't be at college since it was only 10 hours. Mine was 20 hours and a beast. Now my roommate from Freshman year would say 20 hours, so not difficult, anyone could find the time to do it in college, noting that she had a lot of downtime in which she could read and study. I don't think anyone not able to do well in their first semester of college while holding down a 10-20 hour a week job isn't necessarily not ready for college. College can be a big adjustment and if the student hasn't worked a lot in the past while studying, it's just one more thing that might derail them. I think we just came at this idea of workstudy from our two different experiences; your childrens' experiences sound like my roommates'.

 

Mine was not a requirement of my merit scholarship, but a part of my student aid package, along with loans. My parents were laid off due to a plant shutdown shortly before I began college, and I've always wondered if that is why I got the stinker of the workstudy job, since it was added later than my first official aid package. 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

If you can't juggle school and a job you shouldn't be in college.

 

If you can't afford tampons you shouldn't be in college.

 

 

 

What else means you aren't good enough to go to college?

[PeachyDoodle]

Re the pay toilets in Europe: our tour guide in Paris, after cautioning us to be quick about our business, told us about the time he was not quick about his business in the pay toile, and while he was still on the throne, the automatic cleaning system began, which washed out the entire Stall and opened the doors. I was certainly quick about my business in there and was ready! You've just reminded me to take tp and change for our trip to Europe!

 

Oh my goodness... my dd would DIE! Both of my kids are terrified of automatic-flush toilets. I can't IMAGINE what kind of therapy they'd need if they got auto-cleaned out of a stall! Good thing we're not planning to travel internationally any time soon!

[maize]

if she had such an impairment - I'd wonder how she managed to get into college.

Plenty of ADHD kids would struggle with this, and yet there are lots of them in college.

 

I was as likely to forget or misplace sanitary supplies as I was to forget or misplace pens and notebooks.

 

I never did think the university was responsible for my forgetfulness and disorganization though. I made do. This sentence really made me roll my eyes: "When we menstruate, however unexpectedly, we should not feel fear in the pits of our stomachs because of your lack of foresight." The student writing this was not worrying about being able to afford tampons, she was claiming that the responsibility to have tampons available as needed belonged to the institution not to her. That's a bunch of baloney, I'm firmly in the "personal responsibility" camp on this one. If I forgot to bring a pen to class I didn't expect the school to have a supply on hand to meet my need.

[maize]

For students for whom the expense is a problem, I think these products could reasonably be dispensed through the health center. It is the idea that the university rather than the individual is responsible for making sure the item is available at the time and place of need that bothers me.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

I am not suggesting that colleges pay for these things. I am suggesting that colleges hold drives for families who are more able to donate toiletries and what not to help those students in need. Why is this such a bad idea? I scoffed a little when our school encouraged families who were able to donate toiletries and what not but then I realized that some families are really that poor or dysfunctional. I see it as a good thing to help others in need.

 

I think drives for such things are a great idea.

 

I'd have a lot more respect for the letter-writer (in the OP) if rather than complain about the school, she proposed - and was prepared to lead - a drive and ongoing volunteer student group to obtain/stock/replenish supplies.    You know, being a problem-solver rather than just a complainer.

 

[TranquilMind]

If you can't juggle school and a job you shouldn't be in college.

 

If you can't afford tampons you shouldn't be in college.

 

 

 

What else means you aren't good enough to go to college?

Hold on.  Not my comment originally, but how are you translating what was said into what you seem to be hearing?   It doesn't follow.

 

If you can't juggle school and a job, the person is only saying that maybe you aren't motivated enough to be at college or effective at time management, NOT that you aren't "good enough", which is a totally separate concept.  Common sense. 

 

If you can't afford tampons, that person is saying that if you can't provide for your basic needs, maybe you can't pay the cost of college either, and should work for awhile and save some money.  This is just common sense.  It is not saying one is not "good enough".  It merely indicates that one does not yet have enough funds. 

[TranquilMind]

I think drives for such things are a great idea.

 

I'd have a lot more respect for the letter-writer (in the OP) if rather than complain about the school, she proposed - and was prepared to lead - a drive and ongoing volunteer student group to obtain/stock/replenish supplies.    You know, being a problem-solver rather than just a complainer.

 

Exactly what I said.  This is so natural to me that it is hard to see how others don't see that.

And no, no silver spoon in this mouth in childhood.  We were hanging on by a thread at various points. 

[TranquilMind]

Plenty of ADHD kids would struggle with this, and yet there are lots of them in college.

 

I was as likely to forget or misplace sanitary supplies as I was to forget or misplace pens and notebooks.

 

I never did think the university was responsible for my forgetfulness and disorganization though. I made do. This sentence really made me roll my eyes: "When we menstruate, however unexpectedly, we should not feel fear in the pits of our stomachs because of your lack of foresight." The student writing this was not worrying about being able to afford tampons, she was claiming that the responsibility to have tampons available as needed belonged to the institution not to her. That's a bunch of baloney, I'm firmly in the "personal responsibility" camp on this one. If I forgot to bring a pen to class I didn't expect the school to have a supply on hand to meet my need.

Agreed.  The bolded is truly one of the most ridiculous (and awkwardly worded) sentences I have ever read. 

[gardenmom5]

I don't want the college sponsering such drives - the administration ends up footing any bills, and that comes out of tuition.  if students feel strongly enough - then THEY should sponser such drives, and they can "volunteer" those planning/organizing hours that they adminstration would otherwise charge.  (the initiative and volunteer hours of undertaking such a project could  look good on a resume.)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I don't want the college sponsering such drives - the administration ends up footing any bills, and that comes out of tuition.  if students feel strongly enough - then THEY should sponser such drives, and they can "volunteer" those planning/organizing hours that they adminstration would otherwise charge.  (the initiative and volunteer hours of undertaking such a project could  look good on a resume.)

I don't see this at all. Our school simply mentioned the need in a few of the newsletters that regularly go out via email which took all of a minute to write. Then they have someone keep the items in a designated place. Of course, parents volunteered but students could as well.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Hold on.  Not my comment originally, but how are you translating what was said into what you seem to be hearing?   It doesn't follow.

 

If you can't juggle school and a job, the person is only saying that maybe you aren't motivated enough to be at college or effective at time management, NOT that you aren't "good enough", which is a totally separate concept.  Common sense. 

 

If you can't afford tampons, that person is saying that if you can't provide for your basic needs, maybe you can't pay the cost of college either, and should work for awhile and save some money.  This is just common sense.  It is not saying one is not "good enough".  It merely indicates that one does not yet have enough funds. 

The problem I have with this reasoning is that some sort of higher education whether it be vocational school or college is almost always necessary to get a decent job these days. Additionally, our society needs educated people in order to thrive. Therefore, IMHO students should not have to worry about paying for college or vocational education and it should should be free or minimal in cost for all.

 

As for folks not being able to juggle a job and college that was me and I was very motivated. Saying a person is unmotivated simply does not account for the very real differences in people. In regards to those who cannot afford basic necessities like menstrual products, again, this should not be an issue for someone to attend college. It should not be only the "haves" who can go to college in our country:(

Edited March 20, 2016 by NoPlaceLikeHome

[PineFarmMom]

Double post

Edited March 20, 2016 by Texas T

[PineFarmMom]

If you can't juggle school and a job you shouldn't be in college.

 

If you can't afford tampons you shouldn't be in college.

 

 

 

What else means you aren't good enough to go to college?

College education is not a right. It requires money and the ability to competently handle many things. I was that broke ADD college kid. I grew up and managed. Edited March 20, 2016 by Texas T

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

College education is not a right. It requires money and the ability to competently handle many things. I was that broke ADD college kid. I grew up and managed.

Honestly, I think some sort of higher education appropriate for each student whether it be vocational ed, community colleges, or colleges/universities should be available for all for free as long as said student passes their course work with perhaps the allowance for failure in one class only which would then necessitate said student attending remediation classes and whatnot.

 

I also do not think college is for everybody but I do think that in almost every case a high school diploma is not enough these days for adequate employment. It used to be that you could get a plethora of good jobs with a high school diploma and it is simply not the case any more. Also, our countries needs and depends upon an educated and skilled populace. Therefore, I think these things should be provided for as long as the student maintains their end of the bargain-passing grades.

[PineFarmMom]

Honestly, I think some sort of higher education appropriate for each student whether it be vocational ed, community colleges, or colleges/universities should be available for all for free as long as said student passes their course work with perhaps the allowance for failure in one class only which would then necessitate said student attending remediation classes and whatnot.

There is no such thing as free. Someone pays!! That's socialism. College being hard work and sacrifice is the only way it will ultimately work out. Otherwise it will be taken advantage of because it is "free", not by each and every student but likely by the ones who suffer from entitlement syndrome.

 

Those scary words that make me shudder: "We're with the government and we're here to help."

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

College education is not a right. It requires money and the ability to competently handle many things. I was that broke ADD college kid. I grew up and managed.

 

Seeing as a 4 year degree is required to get a job that pays a living wage in many areas now, I'd argue that it is becoming a right.

 

 

Unless of course we are going to move on to whether being able to earn a living wage is a right.

 

In my area, you need a 4 year degree for most anything that pays above minimum wage. The exceptions being technical positions that require some kind of vocational training, also pricey but not always as expensive to obtain.

[maize]

There is no such thing as free. Someone pays!! That's socialism. College being hard work and sacrifice is the only way it will ultimately work out. Otherwise it will be taken advantage of because it is "free", not by each and every student but likely by the ones who suffer from entitlement syndrome.

 

Those scary words that make me shudder: "We're with the government and we're here to help."

Plenty of countries provide tuition-free college, seems to be working out well for them.

 

The hard work and sacrifice bit still happens, the students have to put in the work and pass their exams. Do you think the college student in the U.S. who scrimps and saves and borrows and works part time benefits more from college than the one whose parents easily foot their bills?

Edited March 20, 2016 by maize

[maize]

Seeing as a 4 year degree is required to get a job that pays a living wage in many areas now, I'd argue that it is becoming a right.

 

 

Unless of course we are going to move on to whether being able to earn a living wage is a right.

 

In my area, you need a 4 year degree for most anything that pays above minimum wage. The exceptions being technical positions that require some kind of vocational training, also pricey but not always as expensive to obtain.

I will go ahead and move to "a living wage should be accessible to everyone". That shouldn't be dependent on college because those non-degree-requiring jobs still need to be done whether or not everyone gets a college degree, and yep, the people who do them should be able to live off of their wages.

 

I suspect you agree with me on this ;)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

There is no such thing as free. Someone pays!! That's socialism. College being hard work and sacrifice is the only way it will ultimately work out. Otherwise it will be taken advantage of because it is "free", not by each and every student but likely by the ones who suffer from entitlement syndrome.

 

Those scary words that make me shudder: "We're with the government and we're here to help."

Then should we get rid of public elementary and secondary schools as well as police forces, border control and the military since they are all basically government controlled entities and services that we all pay for which is socialism in essence? Then of course there should be no publicly maintained highways and roads either which benefit not only individuals but plenty of private businesses.

 

As for slackers who might take advantage of these services, I say there will always be a certain number of slackers. So do we cut all basic services such as social safety nets and schools just because there might be a few slackers?

 

I say no. I say instead we could have expectations for using such services such as passing grades or going to remediation in the case of those who fail one course or who are at risk of failing. Of course we should also have admission standards since I don't think college is for everyone and that trade schools are often better for many folks. I think allowing one failure is reasonable since we are all human and make mistakes. Ideally schools would have early identification of and reasonable supports for students who are at risk of failing.

 

As for "free" I am well aware that we would all pay and we would all benefit including private businesses. It is reasonable in my opinion to go back to what the income and capital gain taxes were prior to President George Bush to help pay for things and maybe a little higher especially by creating more income brackets for those making astronomical amounts of money.

 

As for government not always getting things right, I say well just as often neither does private business get it right. Yet I still think we need both private business and government. Let us instead strive to always improve things.

Edited March 20, 2016 by NoPlaceLikeHome

[SKL]

The hard work and sacrifice bit still happens, the students have to put in the work and pass their exams. Do you think the college student in the U.S. who scrimps and saves and borrows and works part time benefits more from college than the one whose parents easily foot their bills?

 

Yeah, I think it is better for most students to have some sort of "real job" while they are college students.  I'm not saying they should all work full-time or all have to pay for everything in real time out of their own earnings.  But having a job, a real job, is important to understanding whatever life responsibilities await a college graduate.  One of the main benefits is that young people realize that they "can" handle work and other responsibilities at the same time.

 

[gardenmom5]

Plenty of countries provide tuition-free college, seems to be working out well for them.

 

The hard work and sacrifice bit still happens, the students have to put in the work and pass their exams. Do you think the college student in the U.S. who scrimps and saves and borrows and works part time benefits more from college than the one whose parents easily foot their bills?

 

have you seen their tax rates?

[maize]

have you seen their tax rates?

Yes.

 

And I've also seen their universities. No fancy fitness centers, premium cafeteria fair, or posh dorms. Straight-up academics.

 

I bet a lot of American graduates could afford higher taxes if they had no student loans to worry about.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

nm 

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by ChocolateReignRemix
NO POLITICS

[MSNative]

I just looked online for this topic, and it seems like several colleges do provide hygiene products ( generic it seems) to female students. I think this is much more enlightenment rather than entitlements. Entitlement is basically just a buzzword today for those unhappy with the progressive nature of today's youth. Face it, lol,you're outnumbered, and they're smarter and kinder than you can imagine.

Is demanding someone else pay for your stuff really kinder?

 

Helping other people is kind. Demanding other people help others isn't.

Organizing and donating is kind. Demanding others do so isn't.

 

I went to college in a very poor rural part of the country. I saw all levels of poverty. Rather than demanding the college do something, my roommate and I started a chapter of a charity that helps people get low income housing. My other roommates were also highly involved in community service. All of us volunteer as adults and two of us have jobs in the non-profit sector. We saw needs and were moved to get involved by doing work ourselves NOT by whining that others do it.

 

Our clinic had free sanitary products and condoms. If you needed them, they were there. The nurse was also present so pilfering was limited. That worked fine for us.

[Murphy101]

Plenty of countries provide tuition-free college, seems to be working out well for them.

 

The hard work and sacrifice bit still happens, the students have to put in the work and pass their exams. Do you think the college student in the U.S. who scrimps and saves and borrows and works part time benefits more from college than the one whose parents easily foot their bills?

This is not quite accurate though. Nearly every country that provides "free college" only actually provides it to a minority of their citizens. They usually have a tracking system in place that weeds out a lot of kids, often well before even high school. And the majority of American kids would never make the cut for lots of reasons.

 

And yes, sometimes, not always, but sometimes the kid who has to work harder gets more out of it than the kid it comes free to. It's no secret that taking something for granted often means it isn't made the best use of. It applies to many things in life, education included.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Murphy101

[maize]

This is not quite accurate though. Nearly every country that provides "free college" only actually provides it to a minority of their citizens. They usually have a tracking system in place that weeds out a lot of kids, often well before even high school. And the majority of American kids would never make the cut for lots of reasons.

 

And yes, sometimes, not always, but sometimes the kid who has to work harder gets more out of it than the kid it comes free to. It's no secret that taking something for granted often means it isn't made the best use of. It applies to many things in life, education included.

You do have a point about appreciating what one works for, I'm not aware though of any statistics indicating that kids who help pay their own way have better graduation rates, job prospects, career success, or generally happy lives.

 

If someone has done research on this I would be interested to see it.

[gardenmom5]

Yes.

 

And I've also seen their universities. No fancy fitness centers, premium cafeteria fair, or posh dorms. Straight-up academics.

 

I bet a lot of American graduates could afford higher taxes if they had no student loans to worry about.

 

 

well, when they get rid of the fru-fru that are not actually part of their marketable education (there are a lot of classes that fit that descriptor too) - they can come back and talk.

 

eta: I'm of the belief that the amount of carp that has NOTHING to do with a marketable education, but adds to the entitlement attitude amongst students,  is part of the reason we are seeing more and more students suing the colleges from which they graduated because they can't get a job with the degree they chose.  

Edited March 20, 2016 by gardenmom5

[PineFarmMom]

have you seen their tax rates?

Yes, this!! And I really do NOT care what other countries do. I don't want to mimic socialist nations. Government is not my god or my mommy or my daddy or my nanny. I don't trust people who want the government to play that role in their life!! I have zero faith in the moral compass of a government that keeps being handed more and more power. I don't want them to wipe my nose or the nose of any college kid who should know how already. I don't want them to choose who gets their citizen-funded college education. What you would get with government-funded college education: their brand of truth. No thanks. I'm good!! When the government takes my money to fund the things they want to pay for, that means they are stealing it out of my hands so that I cannot donate to the causes that I find worthy. That is quite a slippery slope and we have slid 2/3 of the way down that slope as it is. We are about to be laying in a big, oozing pile of mud and sewage!! Rant over and I'm out!!

[maize]

I'm thinking it is easy to make pronouncements about how struggling through with sweat and tears makes you stronger. We know those kinds of pronouncements aren't always true--remember the folks who insist that kids gain important skills by being forced to deal with bullies at school? Research on the long-term effects on victims of bullying doesn't bear that out.

 

As best I can tell, there are benefits to be obtained through tackling and overcoming challenges within certain boundaries; once the challenge/stress becomes too high--or the support provided insufficient-- it becomes a detriment not a benefit. What that level will be varies from individual to individual. I suspect the typical challenges of transitioning to adult life and navigating college coursework are sufficient to provide growth for most students without the additional burden of financial struggles and stress.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

This is not quite accurate though. Nearly every country that provides "free college" only actually provides it to a minority of their citizens. They usually have a tracking system in place that weeds out a lot of kids, often well before even high school. And the majority of American kids would never make the cut for lots of reasons.

 

And yes, sometimes, not always, but sometimes the kid who has to work harder gets more out of it than the kid it comes free to. It's no secret that taking something for granted often means it isn't made the best use of. It applies to many things in life, education included.

I actually am in favor of flexible tracking that allows kids multiple opportunities to higher track. I also think that colleges should maintain high standards and only take those who are college ready. I do not think college is for all but I think that all students should be given a chance to go on a college prep track by ensuring rigorous elementary and middle schools. I also firmly believe in the value of trade schools and think high schools should offer more vocational ed coupled with academics. I also think that students who are consistently disruptive despite interventions should be educated in separate classrooms. I also support high behavioral expectations.

 

As far as free education, there are plenty of students who do get "free" educations who do take it seriously. I think by having higher behavioral expectations prior to college as well as rigorous educations and thorough exposure to the variety of careers available prior to college could help ameliorate some of the kids who take it for granted.  

Edited March 20, 2016 by NoPlaceLikeHome

[maize]

well, when they get rid of the fru-fru that are not actually part of their marketable education (there are a lot of classes that fit that descriptor too) - they can come back and talk.

 

eta: I'm of the belief that the amount of carp that has NOTHING to do with a marketable education, but adds to the entitlement attitude amongst students, is part of the reason we are seeing more and more students suing the colleges from which they graduated because they can't get a job with the degree they chose.

There is a lot less fru-fru in many foreign university systems, Americans are exceptionally good at that kind of stuff ;)

 

I'm not in love with someone else's system nor am I appalled by ours, I see some advantages on either side. For example, I credit the US system with both greater accessibility and greater flexibility than many others. I don't however see the kind of social or moral collapse people are implying is the certain result of providing a free college education in those countries that do so.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

There is a lot less fru-fru in many foreign university systems, Americans are exceptionally good at that kind of stuff ;)

 

I'm not in love with someone else's system nor am I appalled by ours, I see some advantages on either side. For example, I credit the US system with both greater accessibility and greater flexibility than many others. I don't however see the kind of social or moral collapse people are implying is the certain result of providing a free college education in those countries that do so.

Exactly. Is there social and moral collapse because we provide free high schools? No, I think not. So to me it makes no sense to argue that providing higher education in the form of colleges or vocational ed would also cause moral collapse. In fact, I would go on to say that those countries with large amounts of uneducated folks face more severe problems such the likes of the Taliban for example. Education is a benefit to all of us including businesses and innovation.

Edited March 20, 2016 by NoPlaceLikeHome

[SKL]

The countries that come to mind when I think of "no-tuition college for all academically eligible students" do require young people to work, though, or at least some of them do.  Some of them include a year or more of "work study" type experience in addition to academics, before they can graduate.  Some of them won't train you for anything other than a trade if you aren't academic enough by 9th or 10th grade, and then you go to work instead of college.  Some of them have free or very cheap tuition for those who test well, but because of the economic realities, only people from well-to-do families can participate in that.  So the reality is that most young adults (and teens too) have to work.  So I don't know what's so special about young adult Americans that makes work just too much to ask of them.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Yes, this!! And I really do NOT care what other countries do. I don't want to mimic socialist nations. Government is not my god or my mommy or my daddy or my nanny. I don't trust people who want the government to play that role in their life!! I have zero faith in the moral compass of a government that keeps being handed more and more power. I don't want them to wipe my nose or the nose of any college kid who should know how already. I don't want them to choose who gets their citizen-funded college education. What you would get with government-funded college education: their brand of truth. No thanks. I'm good!! When the government takes my money to fund the things they want to pay for, that means they are stealing it out of my hands so that I cannot donate to the causes that I find worthy. That is quite a slippery slope and we have slid 2/3 of the way down that slope as it is. We are about to be laying in a big, oozing pile of mud and sewage!! Rant over and I'm out!!

So you are saying that folks like us who happen to work for the government lack moral compass in general then? I have quite a few family members who dedicate themselves to our country by working for the government and who work very hard and go above and beyond what is required of them. Our military is also part of the government and they all are government workers and I daresay most of them work quite hard. Sure  there are some bad actors but the same can be found in the private sector too.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Exactly. Is there social and moral collapse because we provide free high schools? No, I think not. So to me it makes no sense to argue that providing higher education in the form of colleges or vocational ed should really be the same. In fact, I would go on to say that those countries with large amounts of uneducated folks face more severe problems such the likes of the Taliban for example. Education is a benefit to all of us including businesses and innovation.

 

But what about all the selfish and entitled moochers?!?

 

 

Seriously though, I agree. We are all better off with an educated populace.

[PineFarmMom]

So you are saying that folks like us who happen to work for the government lack moral compass in general then? I have quite a few family members who dedicate themselves to our country by working for the government and who work very hard and go above and beyond what is required of them..

That's quite a reach. They don't make the laws.

[Bluegoat]

One of the major reasons countries choose to have free post-secondary education and training is that it is seen as economically advantageous for everyone.  Much like health care - it is cheaper, more efficient, and the population is healthier, when it is funded through taxes rather than individual payment.  Which is usually how societies decide what kinds of things make sense to pay for collectively.

 

As far as I can think of, no societies think it is a great idea to distribute things like soap, hygiene products, or other personal care products, from a central collective source funded through taxes, or even from relatively decentralized sources funded by taxes.  Even food distributed this way isn't generally very successful and is only used in rather limited circumstances.

[Haiku]

Yes, this!! And I really do NOT care what other countries do. I don't want to mimic socialist nations. Government is not my god or my mommy or my daddy or my nanny. I don't trust people who want the government to play that role in their life!! I have zero faith in the moral compass of a government that keeps being handed more and more power. I don't want them to wipe my nose or the nose of any college kid who should know how already.

I wonder whether you have ever spent time in any of the social democracies of Western Europe? Because your comments make it pretty clear that you don't understand the people or their mindsets. People in places like Sweden do not worship the government as God and they don't believe the government needs to wipe their noses. They also tend to have higher standards of living and more disposable income because, although their tax rates are a bit higher, they spend MUCH less money on healthcare and daycare, to name a few, so in the end they come out ahead financially.

[FaithManor]

I wonder whether you have ever spent time in any of the social democracies of Western Europe? Because your comments make it pretty clear that you don't understand the people or their mindsets. People in places like Sweden do not worship the government as God and they don't believe the government needs to wipe their noses. They also tend to have higher standards of living and more disposable income because, although their tax rates are a bit higher, they spend MUCH less money on healthcare and daycare, to name a few, so in the end they come out ahead financially.

I agree. There are some very ignorant statements being made here about people from Western Europe and their countries.

 

Here is one place to start. The author of the article is an American citizen born and raised in Finland.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-americans-dont-understand-about-nordic-countries-2016-3?IR=T

 

And I would also like to point out that there were high schools in this nation that used to be tracked systems. People need to get their history straight. My parents attended such a high school. There were numerous options for switching out of a vocational track into a college prep track, and from remedial to vocational. No one was weeded out. But it did allow kids whose natural passions were things like electronics, fashion design, catering and restaurant management, future military service, contracting, business administration (because back in that day one did not attend college or university to learn business management but went to a stand alone business school many of which eventually flipped into being community colleges as things changed), civil service positions that did not require degrees (they had actual courses and study groups for passing the civil service exam and job shadowing - sheriff's office, post office, courthouse, county commissioners, etc. -)  and well, just a plethora of options. My parents were well educated. My dad went the military route with some dabbling in the engineering end of things, scored nearly perfectly on his military exams and at 17 was put immediately into an air force missile engineering program. My mom went the home economics/fashion design/interior design route, and at 18 was offered a job with one of the major pattern companies designing patterns for children's clothing. She ended up marrying dad and following him around his military moves so she didn't work that job for long, but the fact is, she was prepared for that position through her high school. In the 50's and 60's there was quite an experiment in certain areas with European style high school, and it worked. But it didn't catch on with the government and funding fell through to continue. Though there were still a few options, more breadth of choices when my brother went to high school, a grim few, by the time he and I had kids, it was entirely gone, and not for the better I might add.

[Bluegoat]

I agree. There are some very ignorant statements being made here about people from Western Europe and their countries.

 

Here is one place to start. The author of the article is an American citizen born and raised in Finland.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-americans-dont-understand-about-nordic-countries-2016-3?IR=T

 

And I would also like to point out that there were high schools in this nation that used to be tracked systems. People need to get their history straight. My parents attended such a high school. There were numerous options for switching out of a vocational track into a college prep track, and from remedial to vocational. No one was weeded out. But it did allow kids whose natural passions were things like electronics, fashion design, catering and restaurant management, future military service, contracting, business administration (because back in that day one did not attend college or university to learn business management but went to a stand alone business school many of which eventually flipped into being community colleges as things changed), civil service positions that did not require degrees (they had actual courses and study groups for passing the civil service exam and job shadowing - sheriff's office, post office, courthouse, county commissioners, etc. -)  and well, just a plethora of options. My parents were well educated. My dad went the military route with some dabbling in the engineering end of things, scored nearly perfectly on his military exams and at 17 was put immediately into an air force missile engineering program. My mom went the home economics/fashion design/interior design route, and at 18 was offered a job with one of the major pattern companies designing patterns for children's clothing. She ended up marrying dad and following him around his military moves so she didn't work that job for long, but the fact is, she was prepared for that position through her high school. In the 50's and 60's there was quite an experiment in certain areas with European style high school, and it worked. But it didn't catch on with the government and funding fell through to continue. Though there were still a few options, more breadth of choices when my brother went to high school, a grim few, by the time he and I had kids, it was entirely gone, and not for the better I might add.

 

It is just shocking how useless high school has become at preparing people for careers.  The fact that many jobs really have no need to be sending people for a university degree, but they have to get one anyway, is just so stupid.  What a waste of time and money for all of us. 

 

Part of the problem in North America, and it seems worse in the US, is the attitude that jobs that don't require university have somehow less status.  It feeds into employers and career paths demanding unnecessary degrees or university classes that would better be taught vocationally.

[MSNative]

I wonder whether you have ever spent time in any of the social democracies of Western Europe? Because your comments make it pretty clear that you don't understand the people or their mindsets. People in places like Sweden do not worship the government as God and they don't believe the government needs to wipe their noses. They also tend to have higher standards of living and more disposable income because, although their tax rates are a bit higher, they spend MUCH less money on healthcare and daycare, to name a few, so in the end they come out ahead financially.

I've lived in France, Germany and the UK. I did not find that I had more disposable income at all. In fact I had much less. My income was lower than a comparable job in the US and the tax rate was higher. Costs were also much higher. Even taking into account the health insurance costs that I would have to pay in the U.S. I had much less at the end of the day living abroad.

I didn't see people worshipping government. But there certainly was a feeling that government should take care of much more than I was used to.

All that said, I loved living overseas and getting to experience the different cultures. All of the countries I lived in were wonderful in their own way. Please don't read my post as being negative against them. Just comparing this one area.

[Bluegoat]

I've lived in France, Germany and the UK. I did not find that I had more disposable income at all. In fact I had much less. My income was lower than a comparable job in the US and the tax rate was higher. Costs were also much higher. Even taking into account the health insurance costs that I would have to pay in the U.S. I had much less at the end of the day living abroad.

I didn't see people worshipping government. But there certainly was a feeling that government should take care of much more than I was used to.

All that said, I loved living overseas and getting to experience the different cultures. All of the countries I lived in were wonderful in their own way. Please don't read my post as being negative against them. Just comparing this one area.

 

I think an important point is that high disposable income doesn't necessarily make people happier,  In many cases, security is a better indicator - if people can live a good live and be secure, they don't always feel the need for more consumer goods.  It is a big weight off many people to not need to worry about finding a health insurance deal that will let them go to the doctor when they need to, or know that an illness will not bankrupt them, or that they will be able to get the training for a good job.

 

Though the UK has been getting away from a lot of that kind of security in recent years, and certainly seems to be wreaking havoc with people's sense of being settled communities.

[MSNative]

I think an important point is that high disposable income doesn't necessarily make people happier, In many cases, security is a better indicator - if people can live a good live and be secure, they don't always feel the need for more consumer goods. It is a big weight off many people to not need to worry about finding a health insurance deal that will let them go to the doctor when they need to, or know that an illness will not bankrupt them, or that they will be able to get the training for a good job.

 

Though the UK has been getting away from a lot of that kind of security in recent years, and certainly seems to be wreaking havoc with people's sense of being settled communities.

And I wasn't arguing that more disposable income equals more happiness.

Though we are veering way off topic, I also have to say that my family's experience with healthcare in those countries was not good. Super long waits - like over a year for care for cancer in the UK. Not acceptable and it certainly did not take a weight off my shoulders. We were blessed to be able to fly back to the U.S. to get the required care.

My experience was not unusual based on what my friends and colleagues overseas shared.

 

The U.S. system isn't perfect by a LONG shot. But neither were the systems that we dealt with overseas.

[Haiku]

security is a better indicator

 

Exactly. Having lived both in western Europe and the US, I know that I would rather have the security of knowing that one major health crisis won't destroy everything my husband and I have built than the "freedom" of being so independent that circumstances beyond our control could ruin us. I certainly felt free in western Europe, and I knew that if I experienced misfortune I wouldn't be destitute.

 

It's not people expecting the government to wipe their noses. It's people understanding that everyone is better off when everyone is better off.

Edited March 21, 2016 by TaraTheLiberator

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Exactly. Having lived both in western Europe and the US, I know that I would rather have the security of knowing that one major health crisis won't destroy everything my husband and I have built than the "freedom" of being so independent that circumstances beyond our control could ruin us. I certainly felt free in western Europe, and I knew that if I experienced misfortune I wouldn't be destitute.

 

It's people expecting the government to wipe their noses. It's people understanding that everyone is better off when everyone is better off.

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by PinkyandtheBrains.

[Murphy101]

But what about all the selfish and entitled moochers?!?

 

 

Seriously though, I agree. We are all better off with an educated populace.

Yeah. Well our free k-12 has gotten us a dumber populace than quite a few other nations manage within that age span.

 

If we actually started to get an educated populace for our tax dollars we probably wouldn't be quite so irritated.

 

ETA: and might even consider it worthy of expanding up to colleges.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Murphy101

[Upward Journey]

I've lived in France, Germany and the UK. I did not find that I had more disposable income at all. In fact I had much less. My income was lower than a comparable job in the US and the tax rate was higher. Costs were also much higher. Even taking into account the health insurance costs that I would have to pay in the U.S. I had much less at the end of the day living abroad.

I didn't see people worshipping government. But there certainly was a feeling that government should take care of much more than I was used to.

All that said, I loved living overseas and getting to experience the different cultures. All of the countries I lived in were wonderful in their own way. Please don't read my post as being negative against them. Just comparing this one area.

 

I don't think living abroad as an expat is completely comparable.  As an expat you usually do not qualify for all, or the same, tax/social benefits as the native population. This has been my experience anyway. ymmv

Edited March 21, 2016 by Upward Journey