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Ready to throw in the towel.... encouragement needed


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I am so ready to throw in the towel on this homeschooling adventure.  First, I cannot seem to find a program that my children like or can comprehend.  We tried HOD last year.  We did CTC with my 10yo and she could not understand the spine for history that was being used.  I then decided to read it to her, and she still was having comprehension problems.  She also had issues comprehending the novels she was suppose to read.  So, I thought, hmmmm maybe she needs a refresher course in phonics.  We went through a phonics brush up, and I had her read some multi-syllable words and she was able to read everything just fine.  So I guess it is just comprehension issues.  We are doing Sonlight core d with advanced readers this year, and she can barely answer any questions about the books right.  Everyone speaks against canned reading curriculums, but I am wondering if this will solve our problem.  I don't know what to do to help her understand what she is reading.  She does not have any learning disabilities, and maybe she just isn't into literature and reading like most homeschoolers.  I just feel like I am failing her big time.  I am considering just putting her in the BJU DVD program as well.   It is so frustrating to have her go read and she come back and cannot answer any questions right.  She is reading Mr. Revere and I right now and is having a very hard time with it.  She honestly has never enjoyed reading much... she will get into a book every once in a while but she just isn't a reader.    Should I not have her read so many novels that sonlight comes with?  Should I just do BJU Reading or CLE reading and call it a day?  I could really use some encouragement or direction.  

 

 

BTW... She is re-reading the chapters in Paul Revere and I as we speak with tears... she doesn't like the book, she doesn't like historical fiction.. she hates reading... UGH!!  

Edited by 4pillars
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Oh, I'm sorry you've been struggling with this. How frustrating it must be for both of you.

 

You might look at the Reading Detective books that the Critical Thinking Co. publishes. They're easy to implement and teach reading comprehension. I think some of their other titles like World History Detective, e.g., work on the same skills, but with a focus on a particular subject.

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February often looks worse than it is.

 

Okay, she is getting little out of her reading but her phonics is fine, and she's also having trouble remembering/understanding what she's heard.

 

A good next step would be working with *much* shorter passages--not even whole chapters. Can she tell back what she heard after one paragraph? After one page? What if she only reads one page before answering something?

 

Evan-Moor makes some daily reading comprehension exercises you might like to have her try.

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You say she has no learning disabilities but maybe she has learning challenges that are not so easy to distinguish.  If she has to read  a longer passage out loud, does she have any issues at all with encoding/decoding/fluency?  How is her reading speed?  How is her working memory?  Vocabulary?  Word retrieval?  If she reads a short paragraph can she then tell you what it meant right afterwards?

 

Since comprehension seems to be the biggest issue, I agree the Critical Thinking Company Reading Detective material might help you help her pull out the relevant information.  I would also back off on piles of required reading analysis right now.  Work through the Reading Detective materials.  

 

I would also encourage reading for fun (or perhaps an audio book if she is able to listen to one) or at least required silent reading each day for short periods without literary analysis afterwards but pick a book series that ties into an area of interest for her that also incorporates a stable setting, meaning a main character and environment that stays mostly the same from book to book.  With each book the basic premise remains stable.  That may help her to build her comprehension skills since she isn't having to start over with different characters/settings/style of writing each time.  

 

What writing program are you using, if any?  I was thinking that IEW with the Key Word Outline practice might help her pull out the relevant information and turn it into something she can comprehend.

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If it makes you feel better my 10you Dd daughter also struggled with Mr. Revere and I, as well as Skippack school. She has also struggled to comprehend the Landmark history book.  I was about ready to post the same question a week or two ago as I have become so frustrated at my Dd's struggle to comprehend the books, which has had me concerned about more difficult books in the future. I really regret having not continued direct phonics instruction once she took off with reading, and she is EXTREMELY resistant to the idea now.  This is my battle plan that I have come up with, not sure if it will work but it seems to make sense.  These are in no particular order....

 

1- She is already listening to audio books on a regular basis, but I may set a 30 min to 1 hour required audio book time to increase that time, not sure yet.  I know she probably wouldn't mind if I did.

2- I just shelved the Paul Revere book, I instead picked out a couple of easier books that she is now reading through.  Just purely fun books.  She just finished reading Twenty and One Balloons, and is now reading Ginger Pie.  I will probably get back to the reader schedule after this book. 

3- I am having her slowly read through a non-fiction history book that is at a slightly uncomfortable difficulty level for her.  She is outlining it as she reads it.  So in other words I have her write down one summary sentence for each paragraph, she does about 8-9 paragraphs a day.  She battled me on this the first day, but I stood my ground, and is getting easier for her.  I think taking it one paragraph at a time and forcing her to slow down and comprehend what it says will help.

4- I am having her read aloud to me.  I foolishly let her stop doing this around 2nd  grade and have been kicking myself for it.  Whenever I have brought up the idea she melts down and says how embarrassing it will be, and refuses to do it.  (My Dd is usually very obedient, but gets anxious about stuff like this).  Well the other day we were gifted a bunch of books, one of them being The Rats of Nimh.  She was really excited about that book, and said it was one of her favorite audio books.  So I had a light bulb moment, not sure why I hadn't thought of it before, I said" I have never read that book would you mind reading it to me?"  She was thrilled with the idea. ;)  Only today did she realize I tricked her in to reading aloud for school, but she was still excited about it.  :lol:  I think I will keep this up and have her read aloud to me other favorite audio books.

5- I am continuing to read aloud to her, including books like the Landmark book.

 

These were just the ideas I had about how I could tackle this problem.  Like I said I don't know if they will work but I am hoping over time they will.  Hope some of them you might find useful. 

Edited by ForeverFamily
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Okay, I just had to chime in - we recently went through that Paul Revere book in Sonlight D and had a very similar response with my DS10, tears and all! First of all, I picked up the book and looked over it and then told him, you don't need to finish this, and gave him two other books on Paul Revere instead. (Who was Paul Revere? and America's Paul Revere)  Also, we did about half of HOD's CtC, and I'll be honest that I think many of their books (especially the history spines) are boring! I also find the Sonlight spine boring, and we've been on Johnny Tremain for weeks now, and I'm soooo ready for it to be done.  All that to say, I am a HUGE reader! I love to read!

 

I want to encourage you not to throw in the towel. You know your family dynamics and situation better than me, but going to school will not solve that particular issue. And honestly, I don't think a canned reading program would be what you are looking for either. My goal is to create a love of reading in my kids. We can all get there in different ways, and you are wise enough to realize that what you are currently doing is not sparking that flame for your daughter! My DD(8) has seemingly caught my love of reading. She reads great. My son, on the other hand, whether it is his age or just not interested, doesn't enjoy reading as much. So, I have decided that I am not going to force things on him, just because a certain curriculum says he needs to read it. Find what does interest her! Read together, ask questions about those exciting things you've read together. What I've found is that that creates just a little spark, and then my kids are off and running. Don't tie yourself to specific curricula or reading lists. Read what interests her. And yes, in our house, that includes books with pictures! We are visual learners, here, as well. There are some awesome historical picture books! You didn't say what her interests are, but that she doesn't like historical fiction. Non fiction? Biographies? Science? Fantasy? Horses? Computers? Basket weaving? (Seriously!) What really gets her heart beating? Use that as a springboard for other things! My son recently checked out a biography of Shigeru Miyamoto (Super Mario Bros. creator) and has read all about him and is now writing a 5 paragraph essay on the guy and Nintendo! Hey, it has him reading and writing! I have come to realize that he isn't going to be as big of a reader as myself or probably my daughter. But, my husband, who is also an un-treated dyslexic, will not read to save his life. I want to avoid that with my son (who is not dyslexic). My kids and I read aloud more than is normal :D and have 30 minutes (work up to that!) of quiet reading that we do together. (Myself included!) Plus, they read at night and in the car... I want them to see that reading is a good thing and that their dad is missing out. Just today we finished a series about a prince, princess, warring kingdoms, dragons, etc. My son is re-reading the series. Okay, not what I would have assigned, but it is reading that he is interested in. ;)

 

So, be encouraged. Don't box yourself into the idea that she has to read certain things and retain everything from them. We remember that which we love. There is plenty of time for the things we don't love, but for now, fan the flame for a love or reading! There are SOOO many good books out there, and just because we don't like a few of them, doesn't mean we can't read.

Edited by Guest
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It may just be that reading is not this child's input modality? Or that developmentally she needs more time before she can analyze, condense, and articulate a summary (this is a hard one for my global thinkers, even the 13 year old - doesn't mean she doesn't understand)? Or perhaps there's some anxiety built up on her part because she's disappointed you with her narrations in the past? Or because she felt "stupid" going back to phonics?

 

I know you've tried different things, but at least the ones you've explained are all verbal-linguistic, sequential, and analytic. Maybe she isn't those things.

 

What if you asked her to illustrate what happened in the book in a comic book style summary? What about making a diorama (with Legos or clay or what have you) and explain it to you? How about dramatizing the book?

 

Maybe she doesn't need a lit-based curriculum? What about project-based learning? Or using documentaries and other videos? Perhaps she would learn more with songs and plays?

 

I do think the comprehension can be shored up with using targeted instruction or even just shorter passages. But if reading isn't the way she learns best I wouldn't use a lit-centered curriculum.

 

ETA: I'm sorry if that sounded gruff when you needed encouragement. I meant to frame in as "you aren't failing your child! They don't all learn and communicate in the same way, and it takes a little detective work to find out just what her way is :-)"

Edited by Targhee
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Oh, don't give up, OP.  I just looked at a sample of that book on Amazon---I would hate reading it, too. ;) 

 

A number of things could be going on.  It could be that she simply doesn't enjoy what she is reading.  When a book is a slog, comprehension can go waaaay down. 

 

It could be it's because she has to do it.  My dd12 loves to read, but struggles with anything that is assigned.  She can read a whole Harry Potter in a couple of days, but getting her to read Bound for Oregon (which is a pretty short book) in under 3 weeks was a daily nag fest.  :glare:

 

It could be she doesn't like to read---not everyone does. 

 

Or it could be she genuinely has comprehension issues.  Or some combination of the above.

 

If if were me, I would try a different book.  I might try to do some partnership reading with her each day.  She reads to you, you read to her, and you talk about what you just read a little at a time.  Say you read a paragraph or a page and then you talk about what happened in that short passage.  Slowly build up to larger passages.  Reading for understanding is a skill that takes practice, just like any or skill before you get good at it.

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Back in the old days, Sonlight was used more for a range of ages than for a particular age/grade level. Many children used Core B for second to fourth grade, and D as late as sixth. D with advanced readers is a very advanced program. You can check this by looking up particular titles - many of those advanced readers are not intended for 3rd or 4th graders.

Your daughter might have any of the situations mentioned, or you might just be using books that are over her head. :) Also, you say she hates historical fiction -- in that case, Sonlight is probably not the best fit because it's all about reading, reading, reading, and especially historical fiction!

 

So I'd take a two-pronged approach, I think, to get the joy and learning back:
A. Ditch Sonlight for awhile.
B. Make sure the next materials are at her level and not over. Help her jump over a lower bar, to gain confidence to try harder books later.

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Many homeschoolers here are into reading and literature because of the nature of the WTM philosophy of teaching. That does not mean that a literature-based school is best for every student. Even if a teaching method or style was preferred by most homeschoolers, it wouldn't matter. You are teaching your homeschooler. 

 

I love the WTM rigor and guidance, but my kids would weep daily if required to read novels in order to learn.

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As previously mentioned, you know your family dynamic. We were in a similar situation about 4 years ago. My oldest was really struggling, her workload was getting heavier as she was approaching high school, and for the first time in 7 years of homeschooling we considered putting her into a private school.

 

After much prayer, the Lord opened the door for us to utilize the BJU DVD program. It REVOLUTIONIZED our schooling for both of our children! I had these pre-conceived ideas that (1) I wouldn't be "teaching" them anymore -- someone else would have total control over that, (2) I'd be forced to stay within the parameters of their program, and (3) schooling wouldn't be nearly as interactive without me lining everything out. I was proven wrong in every aspect! They truly allow the parent the freedom to tailor the program to your child's needs. We're on a college track so we use the program as it's lined out, but you don't have to.

 

The BJU program is quite classical in method as well.

 

I'm not saying just go that way to make life easier. Trust me -- it's not "easy." But if it's something you feel might help lighten your frustration and encourage learning in your daughter, don't push it to the side just for the sake of wanting to keep on your current path. YOU determine that path for you & your child :)

 

Best of luck in your decision making!

Edited by tammieb
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I consider my kids to be huge book lovers. We've been tracking the books they've read since January and my dd is up to 33 books! What are these books? Artemis Fowl, Calvin and Hobbes, Grimm Sister Fairy Tales, Rick Riordan... And occasionally something like a book of poetry. All school related material I read aloud to my kids and we stop and discuss throughout and I always pre-read for interest level. If it doesn't hold my interest, I don't read it. That means even though we are doing Ancient Egypt I ditched the Golden Goblet. Last year we did US History and I read Island of the Blue Dolphins and Witch of Blackbird Pond but I skipped Johnny Tremain. For Civil War I did I a relatively recent book called The Mostly True Adventures of Homer P. Figg. I even ditched Human Odyssey, which got rave reviews from some, to use OUP Wirld in Ancient Times. It was just more interesting. I do realize that they will have to read boring material for information at some point, but for now I prefer to have them only read things that fascinate and engage while they build up their comprehension skills.

 

I will also say that my kids' love of reading has grown so much - they used to think they didn't enjoy reading and were extremely picky about the books they chose to read. But as time went on and almost every book I picked out was a winner, they began to trust me to pick out every book and were willing to expand their interests more. Just my experience.

Of course, I was a librarian before homeschooling, so finding the right book for the right kind was kind of my passion:-)

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THANK YOU for the wonderful replies.... We are going to take a break from the Sonlight readers, and I am going to look at the Reading detective workbooks. I also think that it may have been that the book is just not engaging her as well.   After my little meltdown, my daughter and I had a nice chat.   She said that she actually enjoys reading some, but the historical fiction books just are not up her alley.  She also said that it is easier for her to understand things if she reads them herself versus me reading aloud.  She really wants to go to a more traditional method of homeschooling.  She likes textbooks and workbooks, and has asked to please try the BJU DVD program.  

 

My 16yo just walked in from school, (she attends a private christian school) and noticed that we obviously had "one of those days" and sat down to chat with me about it.  She really thinks I should let my 11yo try the BJU.  My 16yo is an avid reader, but hated when I made her read all the historical fiction when she homeschooled.... LOL  She LOVES and thrives on textbooks, which is why she begged to go to school when she was in the 8th grade.  I guess some kids are just that way.... 

 

My 11yo was very happy when I put the Paul Revere book on the shelf.   

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I consider my kids to be huge book lovers. We've been tracking the books they've read since January and my dd is up to 33 books! What are these books? Artemis Fowl, Calvin and Hobbes, Grimm Sister Fairy Tales, Rick Riordan... And occasionally something like a book of poetry. All school related material I read aloud to my kids and we stop and discuss throughout and I always pre-read for interest level. If it doesn't hold my interest, I don't read it. That means even though we are doing Ancient Egypt I ditched the Golden Goblet. Last year we did US History and I read Island of the Blue Dolphins and Witch of Blackbird Pond but I skipped Johnny Tremain. For Civil War I did I a relatively recent book called The Mostly True Adventures of Homer P. Figg. I even ditched Human Odyssey, which got rave reviews from some, to use OUP Wirld in Ancient Times. It was just more interesting. I do realize that they will have to read boring material for information at some point, but for now I prefer to have them only read things that fascinate and engage while they build up their comprehension skills.

 

I will also say that my kids' love of reading has grown so much - they used to think they didn't enjoy reading and were extremely picky about the books they chose to read. But as time went on and almost every book I picked out was a winner, they began to trust me to pick out every book and were willing to expand their interests more. Just my experience.

Of course, I was a librarian before homeschooling, so finding the right book for the right kind was kind of my passion:-)

 

Thanks... great advice...  I need to let go a bit and just let her choose the books she wants to read for now.  I admit that I can be a bit of a box checker.  Maybe I am the problem!  LOL

 

We are not going to throw in the the towel.... but boy was I swinging that towel round and round just about ready to release it :lol:  :lol:

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She also said that it is easier for her to understand things if she reads them herself versus me reading aloud.

She is most likely not an auditory learner. We are listening to Johnny Tremain on audio. I know that, although I like listening to it for the sake of my voice, I have a terrible time following along the story unless I am following along in the book. I would have probably had a very hard time in Sonlight myself with all the read alouds, as a child.

 

Glad you have been encouraged and your daughter, too.

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I hate historical fiction too. And oh gosh, tell me I HAVE to read a book and I will slog through it. I have read more history books and classic literature as an adult that I actually want to read than I ever read in school. And I was an English major.

 

I was forming a reply in my head as I was reading the others, but then I read your update. I have never used BJU but I know of children who have thrived with it.

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Well, I haven't been homeschooling that long, but I have a few suggestions that are simple enough and may solve your problem.  If the curriculum isn't working, simplify, simplify, simplify.  If Sonlight isn't working, ditch it and get something else (Story of the World might be one direction to go for history)  Also, just consider that maybe you are asking what is above her ability at the moment.  Lots of curricula are labeled for one grade and make me go "huh?" and are way too hard for some kids.  In my house, reading is a non-negotiable, but if your DD has difficulty with the books, put them down and find something that is doable for her.  I would just keep backing up until I found a level of reading that was only *slightly* challenging and had no more than a few words on a page that she had to sound out/work at.  Another suggestion is to ditch most curricula and head to the library so that your DD can choose books she likes from a group that you select for her to choose from.

Edited by reefgazer
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Let me preface this by saying I read your original post & none of the posts after that, so excuse me if Im repeating anything.. but have you considered there's something more going on with your sweet child? Oh how I can relate to so much of what you wrote with my own 12 yo ds. He could read very well, but his comprehension stunk. He too was reading Core D advanced readers & when his comprehension was low I'd have him read some of his book to me & there was no issue there. We had our son tested by a specialist & he tested positive for Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome, better known as Irlen. 

 

Turns out, while our child could read {the specialist could see his phonics was spot on} he was seeing what's known as classic rivers while he was reading. Other times he was seeing double or swirling words. We'd not tested him sooner, because his reading was spot-on & we didn't think there was an issue, but other things started clicking that made us wonder.. math issues once we got past 1 step problems that could be done by memorisation.. 

We had a 2.5 hour appointment with the specialist & the difference we have with this kid now is pretty amazing. He'll need to continue working on a few things that his body was using as coping mechanisms, but the comprehension is there because he can now use the energy to remember vs sort out what on earth he's reading. He makes #3 in our home to have SSS/VPD/Irlen & each one person has presented differently on the scale, but your story struck home with me because it was so similar to what I was going through with our boy.

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It sounds like you already have this figured out, but I just wanted to add a few more thoughts. We loved SL here, but that was because we love reading and my kids LOVE listening to read-alouds. SL is a terrible choice for kids who aren't into reading and hate historical fiction. There are plenty of ways to learn history that don't include historical fiction. BJU is one of many. You could consider SOTW. It would be light and easy. Book 3 would probably be in a similar place historically to where she is in SL. 

 

I agree with lowering the bar. She is trying to do a program where the reading is too difficult for her. She is frustrated. Lower the bar so that she can succeed easily! Once she is succeeding, gently raise the bar until you find her level, where she is being challenged but not frustrated.

 

My kids weren't fond of the Reading Detective series (we only tried one), but we used Wordly Wise for vocabulary and every lesson has a story to read and answer questions. My kids improved their ability to answer questions over a passage dramatically using it. It may also help her build her vocabulary at the same time. You may need to sit with her to answer the questions about a story (either in Reading Detective or WW) and let her answer verbally. If she doesn't know, help her reread the passage she needs to in order to find the answer. Then discuss how you come to the answer you get. Was it stated? Was it implied? For some kids, this is not a natural skill.

 

One last thing, just because she can't answer a set of questions about a story, doesn't mean she isn't comprehending it. Have you read the books? Read the books, then discuss the story. Let her tell you about it rather than answering a set of trivia questions. Prod her on with her story by mentioning things you liked/disliked or found interesting and discuss them. You may find she knows a lot more than you think. She may be a big picture reader. She may know what the story was about and just miss all the details that comprehension questions tend to ask.

 

Just because SL and HOD, two similar programs, aren't working doesn't mean you need to give up. It means you need to change styles. Textbooks, workbooks, and project based learning are all possibilities that might be a better fit for her. Give her (and you) a chance to find what does work. I also wouldn't dive into something else in a big way. If you want to try BJU, try it for one subject. Wade in instead of diving in. You're much less likely to hit your head on the bottom of the pool that way. :)

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I have a friend who's son struggled with reading comprehension. She had him work through the CLE Reading curriculum. He started a few years behind his grade level and worked up and it was very productive for him. The CLE Reading is a TON more than "reading". If you look at the scope on their website HERE you can see what each level covers. Grades 4 (I think!) and up are 5 light units - so you can do it daily and knock out two years in one so it's not a big deal to back up. FWIW, the books are probably very close to "grade level" but the workbooks are pretty challenging. For that I think it's better to start easier than you need and work up.  I would work VERY closely with your student.

 

FWIW, I would not use BJU online. It's a long day and fairly easy to flake out. We use it for science grades 6 and up, but still it's meaty and long.

History - Veritas Press self paced online. Super engaging and fun. Use the lower level readers with this.

 

Writing and Grammar - We used CLE and loved it. I would recommend FLL and WWE. I think if you start from the start it's very thorough and steps up very incrementally.

 

Science - We didn't do anything super formal until 6th grade. We dabbled in Apologia, Abeka, and other stuff. Lots of hands on. Lots of nature stuff. Lots of scout stuff.

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:grouphug: Try to think of tears as loud warning bells and lights.  No need to give up, just take a break re-access and move on.  Tears for me came to equal a need of some kind.  Are they tired, sick, hungry, in need of a snack, break or are the expectations just to hard for now?  

 

The Well Trained Mind, is an excellent resource for how to teach and develop reading comprehension and approach homeschooling-teaching.

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So many wonderful suggestions!  Thank you all so so much!  I appreciate it! 

 

 

Let me preface this by saying I read your original post & none of the posts after that, so excuse me if Im repeating anything.. but have you considered there's something more going on with your sweet child? Oh how I can relate to so much of what you wrote with my own 12 yo ds. He could read very well, but his comprehension stunk. He too was reading Core D advanced readers & when his comprehension was low I'd have him read some of his book to me & there was no issue there. We had our son tested by a specialist & he tested positive for Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome, better known as Irlen. 

 

Turns out, while our child could read {the specialist could see his phonics was spot on} he was seeing what's known as classic rivers while he was reading. Other times he was seeing double or swirling words. We'd not tested him sooner, because his reading was spot-on & we didn't think there was an issue, but other things started clicking that made us wonder.. math issues once we got past 1 step problems that could be done by memorisation.. 

We had a 2.5 hour appointment with the specialist & the difference we have with this kid now is pretty amazing. He'll need to continue working on a few things that his body was using as coping mechanisms, but the comprehension is there because he can now use the energy to remember vs sort out what on earth he's reading. He makes #3 in our home to have SSS/VPD/Irlen & each one person has presented differently on the scale, but your story struck home with me because it was so similar to what I was going through with our boy.

 

 

Thank you for bringing this to my attention kolamum...  I did not know this even existed! But yes, these symptoms sound exactly like my daughter and I will look into getting her tested just in case!

 

 

I think we are going to go ahead and order CLE Reading and work through it with her, as well as have her read aloud a novel that is right on or a bit below her level.  We already use CLE English and enjoy it, and she is actually doing very good with it.  We use Wordly Wise and she has done pretty good with it.  We are only on lesson 6 though, but most of the time she gets through those passages without too much trouble.

 

I am still trying to discern if it is just a learning style issue as well... Lots to think about.  AGAIN.. THANK YOU for all of your replies.  Each and everyone of you have given me great advice and lots to think about.  I just love this forum:)  

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How about audiobooks? My DS10 has a slow reading speed and does not pick fiction. I have to assign some fiction every year just to balance his reading diet.

My DS11 loves reading but loathe history. We stick to watching documentaries and reading condensed/summarised versions for history.

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Another off-the-wall suggestion--Calvin and Hobbes! Much of the vocabulary is quite advanced. See if she read one series of cartoons and narrate it back. Perhaps ask her to draw another frame or two. You might find her curled up with a flashlight, reading under the covers! In fact, I'd leave a flashlight around, or get a booklight and say, "You can stay up an extra half hour or so, as long as you're reading." Free reading--whatever she wants. Another idea--magazines. Diana Waring tells the story of one of her boys learning to read from tractor supply catalogs. 

 

Calvin and Hobbes made my son love reading!

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