NM

[zoobie]

If this church preschool is like the ones I'm familiar with, it's relatively inexpensive and play-based. You are sending them to have cute little parties. They're singing songs, doing crafts, playing with other little kids. If they learn a letter here or there, fantastic. You're joining a community and getting a discounted rate for what would be much more in a for-profit facility. I don't understand why a parent would avoid letting a teacher/child care provider learn a little more about their kid in order to help her tailor activities to the children in her class. She didn't ask for tax returns. You trust her with your child but not the top secret info of whether you celebrate Festivus or not? It would annoy me too, Chris. My most hellacious volunteer activity was being on the PTO board for my oldest two's former preschool. The people who participated and helped the least always seemed to complain the most too.

[TechWife]

What terrible leadership on the part of the principal. She should have been setting an example for parent engagment, not using her job there as a get out of jail free card.

 

Oops! Let me clarify. The principal was the girls' father. Her mother (his wife) was the one with the weird attitude. I have no idea what he thought of it. 

[SKL]

You always get parents like that - it has nothing to do with religion. As a parent who makes financial sacrifices to be at home for my kids, and be engaged in their education I do sometimes get resentful that my volunteer time benefits the kids of parents who couldn't be bothered and would never do anything for their kids, let alone mine. But overall, I let it go. There will always be people who don't contribute but enjoy the free ride....

 

We working moms do pay a lot of taxes though (in addition to whatever tuition / fees / etc.), so I don't really consider it a free ride.  :/

 

I would really rather they didn't do these parties than have people get an attitude because I'm not getting all crafty for each one of them.

 

I used to be a volunteer coordinator for a corporation.  You have to meet people where they are.  Figure out how they can help.  In my case right now, I am very happy to provide money rather than time.  (I've provided thousands of hours of volunteer time in other seasons of life.)  Some other people would rather provide time rather than money.  It's only a problem if the coordinators won't take what each individual is best able to give.

 

[school17777]

Chris, understand! We had a Valentine's card exchange at co-op. It was divided up by grade range. I felt bad for the oldest group because only 1/3 of the kids made cards for their group. One mom with kids in that age group thought it was ridiculous that kids that age were exchanging cards, so she didn't have her kids make cards. I asked her why she didn't let the group know so they could cross her kids names off -because they still got cards even though they didn't exchange cards. Her reason was she didn't think that was allowed. ? Whatever, but it is allowed to just not participate?

Edited February 11, 2016 by school17777

[SKL]

 

I don't do fundraisers, either, and I totally get the nickle and dimed thing. As far as buying ahead, it's mostly food. The one-time activity fee is a good idea, but then someone has to make a special trip (or multiple trips) and really, I feel it's nice to spread around the work--and as I said, people can get the one item at their regular grocery shopping time if they want.

 

When I had little kids, I only went grocery shopping once in 3 weeks (less if we were traveling or something).  My grocery store was an organic food store that did not ever sell stuff like valentine-themed paper products.  I did not ever go to any other grocery store because I didn't have time to, and I didn't need to, and I also didn't like to.  :)  Especially not with kids.  So it would absolutely be an extra trip for me, and probably for some other parents too.  Even if you gave weeks of advance notice.

 

As for the explanation in the other post about unfrosted cupcakes etc.  It would be 100x easier for me to buy ready-made cupcakes than to come up with unfrosted ones.  You took one item (cupcakes) and turned it into at least three separate shopping trips plus a baking bonanza.  That isn't spreading the work around, it's making extra work.

[SKL]

As I said, I don't know if they are. It is unusual, though, in our preschool, to not celebrate your two kids' birthdays at school with some sort of acknowledgement, not participate in Christmas giving, and not sign up for any parties.

 

 

Do you mean that they didn't send in treats for their kids' birthdays?  That could just be a preference.  Or, they might not think it's appropriate or expected at preschool.

 

Not participate in Christmas giving?  What do you mean by that?

 

[SKL]

If this church preschool is like the ones I'm familiar with, it's relatively inexpensive and play-based. You are sending them to have cute little parties. They're singing songs, doing crafts, playing with other little kids. If they learn a letter here or there, fantastic. You're joining a community and getting a discounted rate for what would be much more in a for-profit facility. I don't understand why a parent would avoid letting a teacher/child care provider learn a little more about their kid in order to help her tailor activities to the children in her class. She didn't ask for tax returns. You trust her with your child but not the top secret info of whether you celebrate Festivus or not? It would annoy me too, Chris. My most hellacious volunteer activity was being on the PTO board for my oldest two's former preschool. The people who participated and helped the least always seemed to complain the most too.

 

I could see being shy about information that is different from the norm.  What if they are atheists, or Muslims, or pagans?  They know that's not going to go over well in a Christian church.  Maybe this family got the shaft at another Christian establishment and doesn't want it to happen again.  Blind trust is not always such a great thing.

 

I don't like to fill out forms that ask for race / ethnicity (and they almost all ask).  What difference does it make?  It shouldn't make any difference.  And my kid's religion (or lack thereof) shouldn't make any difference.

 

As for complaining the most, I haven't heard that these parents are complaining.  Sounds like they are quietly and politely minding their own business.

[Bluegoat]

I think pre-school parties are nice.  ut if they happen very often, I would not be happy - if I am sending my child it is to make time, not lose it.

[Tsuga]

I empathize with the irritation at the fact that they stand on principle when it comes to giving, but when it comes to receiving, principle goes out the window.

 

It's irritating to make up the gap for someone else's hypocrisy. So from that side, I totally feel your vent.

 

On the other hand, I am that parent that HATES the whole "don't forget just this one more thing on top of a million other things this month--it's not as if you forgot to buy eggs last week, milk the week before, the butter the week before that, SURELY you can do just one more thing at the grocery store after 9 hours at work when you're headed home to hungry kids and you have spent an hour in the car and you are modifying tonight's dinner based on the meat on sale on the fly! You're going to the store anyway!" Do I contribute? Yes, because I love our teachers. Is it mentally taxing to keep track of a check or purchase for someone else's activity agenda each month? Yes. Yes it is. Because keep in mind that especially with pre-schoolers, a lot of people have a kid in pre-school, and one or two more in primary school in different classes. It's not "just one per month". It is often twice a month, three times per month during the holidays.

 

On yet the other hand... an activity fee doesn't make sense. Just fold it into tuition or charge with tuition, or let people buy in kind.

 

Ultimately, of course you just have to put up with this family. Everyone's busy, everyone has family, everyone has principles of some kind ("not healthy enough", "not a real holiday", "we are JW", "too much party, too little school" whatever). We all suck it up and they should, too. But they don't. Oh, well. :(

 

The suggestion of giving an option to donate classroom supplies or cash in lieu of party supplies might work, though.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Tsuga

[bolt.]

When I register my children in classes or organizations, including preschools, I believe I have *purcased* the services of a group of professionals to provide a specific service to/for my child.

 

1. I believe they should provide those services for the costs they charge.

 

2. I believe they should provide the services *to the child*

 

3. I don't believe they should attempt to provide services that are 'above and beyond' the services I wanted to purchase.

 

4. If they want to add to their own burdens and exceed their own budgets for a 'party' -- I might not be irritated enough to boycott it or find another preschool over it -- but I sure-as-shooting don't construe their desire to throw a party during my children's instructional time as any reason to think I should be "contributing" to whatever my children are supposedly receiving. I didn't ask for it, it has nothing to do with me. Why would it be my obligation to foot a bill or bring a napkin?

 

5. If parents have an ongoing predictable role to play (in excess of paying for the service) that needs to be stated up-front as non-negotiable within the original framework of 'what I'm buying, and what I'm exchanging for it'. A snack provision rotation is fine. Ongoing pestering and sign ups are not.

 

6. If volunteering is really volunteering it means, "People who are interested in adding xyz to the classroom are welcome to contribute and see if we can make it happen." It doesn't mean, "People who are fine with everyday preschool are taking advantage of people who put in their own energy to push for extras."

[zoobie]

I could see being shy about information that is different from the norm. What if they are atheists, or Muslims, or pagans? They know that's not going to go over well in a Christian church. Maybe this family got the shaft at another Christian establishment and doesn't want it to happen again. Blind trust is not always such a great thing.

 

I don't like to fill out forms that ask for race / ethnicity (and they almost all ask). What difference does it make? It shouldn't make any difference. And my kid's religion (or lack thereof) shouldn't make any difference.

 

As for complaining the most, I haven't heard that these parents are complaining. Sounds like they are quietly and politely minding their own business.

So why send them to a Christian preschool? We are agnostic-atheistic-y. One of ours is in a Christian preschool. We celebrate the holidays secularly, so I put them down. NBD. The form was single page, double spaced. Most of it dealt with emergency contacts and allergies. The director told me we didn't have to fill out the holiday part, but I wouldn't give them my baby if I didn't feel comfortable sharing basic information. She said the school had some diverse students, and the kids enjoyed celebrating other holidays in the classroom. If you don't want to be part of the community and don't trust the teachers or school, why send your child there?

[Chris in VA]

Oh my goodness.

 

This is my last post.

 

You have given me much to think about and I know I was feeling a little defensive and more than a little snarky. I'm sorry about that.

 

Ok--so to address some points--

 

Snack is part of our preschool. "Parties" are just snack with a little something special thrown in. It is not an extra that takes time away from instructional time like parties in elementary school. It IS part of the instructional time. Building vocab and taking turns while talking to each other, learning grace and courtesy as we say grace and pass food, practicing 1:1 correspondence while setting the table, practical life in pouring water--it's all part of the day and part of the curriculum, if you want to phrase it that way. Parents know we have these little (and I mean little) celebrations. No one has to participate, but I do not feel guilty about asking. I don't pester. I write a newsletter each week, a calendar each month, see each parent at the door coming and going, and want to build a relationship with them. We are not set up for them to send their child in alone. Who does that at 3 years old, anyway?

 

This is an Episcopal preschool. We welcome everyone. You don't have to share any value except loving your kid and being kind to others. Our teachers are not all Christian, either, and it "goes over" just fine. No one is asking for blind trust, but we do assume some trust, as they are sending their kids to us for 3 hours 3 X a week.  Parents tour the school, can come in whenever they want to, can help OR not help in the classroom, and are fully oriented to school culture and practice before signing up and then after, too. 

 

SKL, you said I took a simple thing and over-complicated it--"four trips." Well...no. I could've asked one parent to buy everything or to buy a darn cupcake already frosted. I asked for 4 separate things because I know the kids would love to bring in something, and because adding a small bottle of sprinkles did not seem like a huge burden to me--and we are not in a food desert as there are 2 grocery stores one block over. I asked for unfrosted cupcakes because I'd like the kids to be able to frost their own and add sprinkles of their own choosing--it's a great fine motor activity and most would consider it fun to decorate their own treat, but no one will have to if they want it plain. It is not all about convenience. If it were, I'd buy a giant box of Annie's crackers and be done with it.

 

Well, anyway, I'm done. I am feeling testy about another issue and I think it is coming out here. Thanks for replying and thanks for letting me vent.

 

[SKL]

Just an idea for the future:  could you, at the beginning of the school year, assign each holiday to one parent (for shopping)?  Then at least it would be 1 trip/parent/year and the parent would have plenty of advance notice that s/he had to make the trip.  And if there was something that wasn't going to work for that parent, s/he could work it out with you one-on-one.

 

When my kids were in preschool, they just told parents we were free to bring goodies if we wanted to.  I used to order from Oriental Trading and put together a little bag of non-food items, because sugar is an issue for us, and I figured it might be for others as well.  And the times when I couldn't do it because of work or whatever, I simply didn't.

[NatureMomma]

I'm one of Jehovahs Witnesses, and I can tell you I very seriously doubt that they are, or else they may be just studying or not active, or raised around it. A JW would normally NOT send their child to a preschool at a church, and would also not let their child participate in a holiday party. For instance, my daughter attends a charter school a couple of days a week, and when they have a holiday party, sometimes I pick her up early and other times, I send her with special treats and activities to keep busy while the other kids are doing their thing. She gets plenty of treats, parties, presents, etc, and doesn't feel deprived. She knows our beliefs and why we don't celebrate the different holidays.

Edited February 11, 2016 by NatureMomma

[bolt.]

If it's part of the curriculum, see point #1. Simply provide that part of what you offer, within the budget of what you charge for your services. There's no objection to using holidays as an opportunity to teach. If children are entitled to experience these learning opportunities, why frame them as something parents need to contribute to? Or that some kids are receiving unfairly? If it's cirriculum it should (a) cost nothing, (b) require none of the parents or child's time outside of school hours, and © be a perfectly ordinary experience for all children without being characterized as givers or takers. Of corse they are 'takers' -- the parents are *buying* the entire experience. (Your curriculum should not exceed your budget. All curricular activities should be already paid for.)

 

Building relationships with parents involves making friends. Not asking them to do favours, give gifts, pay extra, or execute homework.

[TammyS]

. We all suck it up and they should, too.

 

I don't think anyone should suck it up, ever.

 

Simple communication can solve all of this, before the school year begins.  "We are this kind of school.  We host these parties.  We expect all kids to participate in all activities.  We expect moms to donate this many dollars, hours, and shopping trips. If this doesn't sound like what you want, then you need to find some place else."

 

Just tell people at the beginning the expectations - ALL of them. 

[maize]

Oops! Let me clarify. The principal was the girls' father. Her mother (his wife) was the one with the weird attitude. I have no idea what he thought of it.

I'm curious though as to why we all assume participation in the classroom is a mother's responsibility. So the father didn't participate, with no explanation whatsoever, and he gets a pass while our ire is directed at mom?

Edited February 11, 2016 by maize

[TammyS]

I'm curious though as to why we all assume participation in the classroom is a mother's responsibility. So the father didn't participate, with no explanation whatsoever, and he gets a pass while out ire is directed at mom?

 

Because he's working and she's not (presumably) and so therefore available for whatever other people want her to do?

 

Just like homeschool moms are available to babysit other people's kids.

 

It's an old saw.

[zoobie]

I don't think anyone should suck it up, ever.

 

Simple communication can solve all of this, before the school year begins. "We are this kind of school. We host these parties. We expect all kids to participate in all activities. We expect moms to donate this many dollars, hours, and shopping trips. If this doesn't sound like what you want, then you need to find some place else."

 

Just tell people at the beginning the expectations - ALL of them.

If her school is like mine, they do. We were given a sample class calendar (which details "Bring in Valentines" the day before the Valentine party and lists the food pantry drive) and a school-wide annual calendar, told about snack rotation (and given a list of suggested snack items), told about the Christmas activities, told about the book drive and food drives, given a list of likely parties and told the teachers will email for items they need for class or extras. This was detailed at the information session before applying and during the new parent meeting, and much of it is in the handbook and calendars in the information packet. It was the same at the other two church preschools we considered. The school-wide calendar and blog of past events is online at all of these schools, though one's interface is admittedly terrible and does not work with mobile devices. I'm going to guess the information was available in a variety of ways to the parents at OP's school too.

[TammyS]

If her school is like mine, they do. We were given a sample class calendar (which details "Bring in Valentines" the day before the Valentine party and lists the food pantry drive) and a school-wide annual calendar, told about snack rotation (and given a list of suggested snack items), told about the Christmas activities, told about the book drive and food drives, given a list of likely parties and told the teachers will email for items they need for class or extras. This was detailed at the information session before applying and during the new parent meeting, and much of it is in the handbook and calendars in the information packet. It was the same at the other two church preschools we considered. The school-wide calendar and blog of past events is online at all of these schools, though one's interface is admittedly terrible and does not work with mobile devices. I'm going to guess the information was available in a variety of ways to the parents at OP's school too.

 

I don't mean finding information about what the school typically does.  I means spelled out, in list form, in the contract.

 

If it were not in the contract that I signed onto as part of joining the school, I would feel no obligation to pay attention to anything that didn't catch my fancy.

[J-rap]

I just want to say that I love preschool parties.   :hurray:

[QueenCat]

I just want to say that I love preschool parties.   :hurray:

 

I always loved them too. And enjoyed them when my kids were in elementary school too.

[SKL]

I'm curious though as to why we all assume participation in the classroom is a mother's responsibility. So the father didn't participate, with no explanation whatsoever, and he gets a pass while our ire is directed at mom?

 

Also, it is possible that the mom says this because her husband gives practically all of his waking hours to the kids at school.  If he is going way above and beyond, then she is right to feel that her family's responsibility is covered.

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by SKL

[QueenCat]

Also, it is possible that the mom says this because her husband gives practically all of his waking hours to the kids at school.  If he is going way above and beyond, then she is right to feel that her family's responsibility is covered.

 

 

Yes....... but one can express that more kindly than I got the impression it was initially given.

[Carol in Cal.]

Just general, when you turn your kids over to an organization it is wisest to decide to participate as fully as possible, and to wear a cheerful mask even if you don't feel like it.  It helps the child not feel ambiguous about participating, it helps you get to know others who have this in common with your family, and it's just plain a nice thing to do.  As a homeschooler I always debated what to participate in, but as a school parent I made a conscious decision to be 'all in' and that was entirely the right decision to make.  Being one of the field trip moms and being the one who brought enormous gingerbread people and squeeze frosting, etc. lets you see your child in context, lets you see the teacher in action, lets you see other children who your child may be friends with, and lets you find other parents who may end up being friends or at least allies of yours.  Plus kids love it when they are young, and the more you normalize it then, the more you will able to do it later when they might not love it so much.  These are all good things.

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[eternalsummer]

They are all good things, but they are not necessary things.  My parents never made a cupcake or came to class because my mom worked long hours and my dad was disabled and anti-social.  I never felt like I was different from the rest of the class; I never wished my parents were there; my parents didn't need to be friends with the other parents (they had their own friends, based on their interests separate of just having kids the same age); my teachers were fine and my parents trusted them to take care of me in school.

[Carol in Cal.]

They are all good things, but they are not necessary things.  My parents never made a cupcake or came to class because my mom worked long hours and my dad was disabled and anti-social.  I never felt like I was different from the rest of the class; I never wished my parents were there; my parents didn't need to be friends with the other parents (they had their own friends, based on their interests separate of just having kids the same age); my teachers were fine and my parents trusted them to take care of me in school.

Times have changed. 

And your parents had good excuses.

In the OP's case, no excuses or even comments are being proffered.

That being so, those parents appear poorly compared with the others.

 

It is not a question of trust.  Rather, it is a question of optimizing an experience that you're paying quite a lot for, which is always a smart move.

[eternalsummer]

But for me and my kids, the optimal experience might not be for me to participate.  As a kid I did not want my parents there -school was my arena, my time separate from them.  I felt sorry for the kids with the room moms.

 

And I don't think the parents really need to give a reason as to why they don't want to participate (unless of course it is laid out as a requirement of attendance before the year starts); that is a decision for them to make based on their time constraints, money, etc.

 

Again, if you are really broke, and you've decided to spend (what is for some people a *lot* of $) to send your kids to Pre-K, you might not have a spare $5, and you might feel like spending the $5 on food or whatever is a better call than a party you didn't agree to in the first place.

 

Or if they do have a religious objection, who are we (really) to decide for them what is and isn't an acceptable line to take?  

 

However, I agree that the OP could use more information to make the class run smoother (and lessen her own irritation!).  Getting that info is hard because the info she wants is something people are often quite guarded about (religious affiliation, income, family culture, etc.)

[Carol in Cal.]

It's still smarter to go with the flow and participate, or not to sign up in the first place.

[zoobie]

I don't mean finding information about what the school typically does.  I means spelled out, in list form, in the contract.

 

If it were not in the contract that I signed onto as part of joining the school, I would feel no obligation to pay attention to anything that didn't catch my fancy.

 

You're saying you would sign your children up for a church preschool then refuse to send in snack when it's your turn on rotation or participate in anything, knowing your kids would basically be mooching off of the other children in the community? Unless the school actually detailed "send in some dang graham crackers" in the contract? Really? Would you show up for a potluck empty handed? Why sign your kids up for an activity that is community-oriented then intentionally refuse to be part of the community simply because you're not contractually obligated? This is why we can't have nice things. :(

[SKL]

Times have changed. 

And your parents had good excuses.

In the OP's case, no excuses or even comments are being proffered.

That being so, those parents appear poorly compared with the others.

 

It is not a question of trust.  Rather, it is a question of optimizing an experience that you're paying quite a lot for, which is always a smart move.

 

It sounds to me like that family has a different culture and possibly a different language.  It's not easy to feel a sense of belonging when you're so different.  They want their kid to integrate and so they are sending them to preschool.  Great!  I really hate to see them attacked for doing this for their kid.

 

I hate the idea that people need to "proffer an excuse" for being different, or be subjected to judgment.

 

When I was a kid, my family was that one that didn't really belong.  We were from a different economic, cultural, and religious background, plus my mom was a WOHM, which was very unusual in those days.  There was no possibility of my mom (or dad) being a "room parent."  My mom did send in cupcakes for bake sales, if she had enough advance warning.  She whipped up her own frosting, which was the yummiest.  But yes, times have changed - in those days, little kids didn't have activities in the evenings, or homework - they ran around outside until bedtime.  A mom could mix up some cupcakes and pop them in the oven while the kids played.  For me to do that now, I would have to cancel one of my kids' activities, which I prefer not to do.

 

Another thing.  I don't agree that you have to be in your kid's classroom to "optimize their experience."  IMO the whole point of sending them to school is that they do something apart from Mom.  Optimizing their experience IMO is letting them do this without Mom.  Mom steps in only if there is a problem.  You may feel differently because maybe your reasons for sending kids to preschool / school are different from mine.

 

I don't need to see my kids "in context" in order for us all to be fine and happy.  I see my kids at home and at their activities and in lots of other contexts.  I know enough about what is happening at school, and if I need to know more, the teacher has the ability to contact me.  I trust my kids to be able to benefit from the preschool / school experience without me being physically there.  Just like I got through school just fine without my parents ever being physically there.

[TammyS]

It's still smarter to go with the flow and participate, or not to sign up in the first place.

 

Because...what?  Some Judgy McJudgeWort mom is jealous that you have the backbone to skip out on the obligations that others try to impress upon you?  While Ms. McJudgeWort fumes about how I'm not doing whatever it is she thinks I should be doing, I'd be laughing all the way to the Starbucks.

[SKL]

You're saying you would sign your children up for a church preschool then refuse to send in snack when it's your turn on rotation or participate in anything, knowing your kids would basically be mooching off of the other children in the community? Unless the school actually detailed "send in some dang graham crackers" in the contract? Really? Would you show up for a potluck empty handed? Why sign your kids up for an activity that is community-oriented then intentionally refuse to be part of the community simply because you're not contractually obligated? This is why we can't have nice things. :(

 

I think the organizers have a responsibility to be clear about what is expected.  It's not that hard to do IMO.  Every preschool I looked into was clear about it.  This is why I chose to send my kids to a more expensive non-cooperative preschool.  I knew I would not be able to juggle all that.  My kids' preschool provided all food all day long, period.  They required no volunteering, although they did invite parents to participate in field trips.  (Since I have a flexible schedule, I was able to go on a few of their field trips.)

 

[Carol in Cal.]

Hey, if you want to pay for an experience and then choose to have only part of it, have at it.  Seems like a poor value to me.

[TammyS]

You're saying you would sign your children up for a church preschool then refuse to send in snack when it's your turn on rotation or participate in anything, knowing your kids would basically be mooching off of the other children in the community? Unless the school actually detailed "send in some dang graham crackers" in the contract? Really? Would you show up for a potluck empty handed? Why sign your kids up for an activity that is community-oriented then intentionally refuse to be part of the community simply because you're not contractually obligated? This is why we can't have nice things. :(

 

Yes.  That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

Other people don't get to make obligations for me, and I don't get to make obligations for them, either.

 

And if someone complained to me about it, I would strongly suggest that they grow a back bone of their own and go get a manicure, rather than giving in and being "room mom" or shopping for crackers, or whatever.  I would probably be the leader of the preschool insurrection.

 

If the schools want parents to participate in certain ways, they need to spell it out in the contract.  Everything else the school should just take it upon themselves to provide.  Frankly, it is WRONG for them to not do so and constantly spring these expectations on the parents.

[zoobie]

I think the organizers have a responsibility to be clear about what is expected.  It's not that hard to do IMO.  Every preschool I looked into was clear about it.  This is why I chose to send my kids to a more expensive non-cooperative preschool.  I knew I would not be able to juggle all that.  My kids' preschool provided all food all day long, period.  They required no volunteering, although they did invite parents to participate in field trips.  (Since I have a flexible schedule, I was able to go on a few of their field trips.)

 

 

Definitely. I don't think being clear = writing it into the contract though. (Which it sounds like you don't either.) I wouldn't send my kids to a cooperative preschool either because playing with other people's preschoolers would be one of my circles of hell. ;) 

[SKL]

Hey, if you want to pay for an experience and then choose to have only part of it, have at it.  Seems like a poor value to me.

 

OK I am going to assume you meant "not as much bang for your buck" vs. "you have poor values."

 

If it is exactly what I intended to pay for, then it is a good value to me.

 

Different parents may have different reasons for doing the same thing.

[TammyS]

Hey, if you want to pay for an experience and then choose to have only part of it, have at it.  Seems like a poor value to me.

 

If the parent is getting what they want from the experience, then it's an excellent value. 

 

To participate in the parts that you don't want to would actually detract from the value.

 

It's just like stuff.  Someone may want to give me something of value (to them), but if I don't want it, then it's just junk and clutter.  That's not adding value, that's detracting value, because now I have to store/maintain crap I don't want.

 

ETA: But you didn't answer my question at all?  Why is smarter to "go with the flow and participate"?

Edited February 11, 2016 by TammyS

[zoobie]

Yes.  That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

Other people don't get to make obligations for me, and I don't get to make obligations for them, either.

 

And if someone complained to me about it, I would strongly suggest that they grow a back bone of their own and go get a manicure, rather than giving in and being "room mom" or shopping for crackers, or whatever.  I would probably be the leader of the preschool insurrection.

 

If the schools want parents to participate in certain ways, they need to spell it out in the contract.  Everything else the school should just take it upon themselves to provide.  Frankly, it is WRONG for them to not do so and constantly spring these expectations on the parents.

 

Why would you join a community and then go in and crap all over it? That makes no sense. Sending in graham crackers and a can of corn for the food bank pnce a quarter isn't hard labor. And the schools aren't springing the expectations on the parents. You can't detail every single activity in a contract. Preschool contracts would be 100 pages long and require consulting an attorney to sign. That's ridiculous. Choose another preschool that fits your expectations instead of taking advantage of people. Technically, you could go to the church's food bank and pick up a sack even if you don't need it, but would you do that too? That's pretty much what you're advocating here.  

[SKL]

Hey, if you want to pay for an experience and then choose to have only part of it, have at it.  Seems like a poor value to me.

 

Well, it's kind of like living (and paying taxes) in a decent school district and choosing to homeschool.  :P

 

[eternalsummer]

Omg, I just realized I was *this* close to sending my DD4 to a cooperative preschool in the fall.  I forgot how non-cooperative I am :)  Maybe I will look around a bit...

[TammyS]

Why would you join a community and then go in and crap all over it? That makes no sense. Sending in graham crackers and a can of corn for the food bank pnce a quarter isn't hard labor. And the schools aren't springing the expectations on the parents. You can't detail every single activity in a contract. Preschool contracts would be 100 pages long and require consulting an attorney to sign. That's ridiculous. Choose another preschool that fits your expectations instead of taking advantage of people. Technically, you could go to the church's food bank and pick up a sack even if you don't need it, but would you do that too? That's pretty much what you're advocating here.  

 

If the preschool contract needs to be 100 pages long in order to detail all of the additional (previously undetailed) expectations that they are going to put on the parents, then perhaps they should dial back the amount of expectations.  And I'm pretty certain most parents are smart enough to read a list of expectations without a lawyer.

 

I also don't accept your position that it's crapping all over a program not to accept obligations that I had no previously agreed to.

 

[bolt.]

You're saying you would sign your children up for a church preschool then refuse to send in snack when it's your turn on rotation or participate in anything, knowing your kids would basically be mooching off of the other children in the community? Unless the school actually detailed "send in some dang graham crackers" in the contract? Really? Would you show up for a potluck empty handed? Why sign your kids up for an activity that is community-oriented then intentionally refuse to be part of the community simply because you're not contractually obligated? This is why we can't have nice things. :(

I'm not the right respondant, but here are my thoughts.

 

Any place that has a "snack rotation" with "turns" clearly lays that out for the parents of participants -- unless they are really new to this sort of thing. It's not an unreasonable expectation.

 

Potlucks are, similarly, events that are *known* to be voluntary, and require contributions of good for those who would like to share in that shared experience.

 

Children's experences are not always 'community oriented' (presuming that's code for openly expecting free labour and gifts from the parents of one's students) and thus can often surprise parents (who assume that by paying fees they have covered their entire obligation).

 

In some cases, even when this is known to the parents, it's not what the parents would have liked: but the "pros" outweighed the "cons". In this case if "community" pseudo-obligations (that's quite the euphemism!) are displayed as voluntary, those parents would choose not to volunteer.

 

It's not mooching for an innocent child to be accidentally present when various adults (not his/her parent) decide to be spontaneously generous.

Edited February 11, 2016 by bolt.

[Carol in Cal.]

Well, it's kind of like living (and paying taxes) in a decent school district and choosing to homeschool.  :p

 

Not at all, paying the taxes is involuntary.

It's more like paying for piano lessons and not practicing every day.  You're not getting as much out of it as you could have.

[eternalsummer]

But what if what you want out of piano lessons isn't to get as good as possible at the piano?  What if you just want some exposure to the instrument, or a certain level of proficiency, or to get out of the house?

[Carol in Cal.]

Then you're choosing not to get all your could for your financial and time investment.  Same as with the preschool.

[TammyS]

Then you're choosing not to get all your could for your financial and time investment.  Same as with the preschool.

 

That depends on how you look at it. If you are getting what you want....any more that you invest is a negative.  If what you want is an hour per week with an instructor, and that is all, but you put in  4 hours of practice per week to achieve a goal that is not your own, then you are LOSING 4 hours per week. 

[bolt.]

If I buy a pass to a rec centre and spend less than 14h per day taking advantage of the facility...

[SKL]

Then you're choosing not to get all your could for your financial and time investment.  Same as with the preschool.

 

No, what we're doing is choosing not to invest MORE to get something we did not pay for and did not want.

[SKL]

Not at all, paying the taxes is involuntary.

 

You could choose to live in a place with lower taxes and lower-performing public schools.

 

But presumably you chose your home for more reasons than the quality of public schools.  Just like not everyone chose their preschool for the opportunity it gives to volunteer, socialize, and see our kids in the classroom.

 

Also, I would add that paid child care is not really "voluntary" for many families.  Some of us have to choose whatever works, which may or may not be exactly what we wish we were paying for.

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by SKL