At what point does learning no longer HAVE to be fun?

[Cake and Pi]

My kids are not HG or PG, they're just a little ahead, so I hope it's okay if I ask here.  I anticipated being told I was pushing too difficult of work if I asked on the regular board, and I thought the perspective you guys are coming from might be more appropriate for our situation.

 

Anyways.  DS#1 is 7 1/2 yo in 2nd grade.  He's in the 2nd chapter of BA 4A and suddenly is throwing a fit that he doesn't want to do math!  He's fairly mathy and did all of BA 3C, 3D and the first chapter of 4A quickly and without issue over the course of 9-10ish weeks.  Now this second chapter of 4A is multi-digit multiplication, which he already learned and is proficient at even with very large numbers.  Buuuut, he doesn't want to do it any other way than the way he learned in RightStart.  We had tears this morning when his worksheet wanted him to use the distributive property to solve a simple 2-digit by 2-digit problem (problems 42 and 43).  It's not an issue of difficulty, but just that he doesn't LIKE to do it this way.

 

I've worked pretty hard to keep lessons short and fun up to this point.  But I'm not sure at what point you say, "This is the work that must be done.  I'm sorry you don't like it.  You still need to do it."  I don't want to crush his love of learning, but school can't ALL be fun forever!

[HomeAgain]

I don't believe school should be fun, I believe it should be interesting.  If it's not interesting to the child the lesson is often worthless because it's dumped from the brain soon after.

 

That said, we're in the middle of a foundation year here, so younger than yours.  The goal this year is to keep lessons short, and interesting, but most importantly to develop work habits to carry him through.  For 10 minutes, I expect total and complete involvement from the child: attitude ready to learn, hands working on the skill, memory working to be able to retell the steps/facts/rule at the end of the period.  After that, it is 20 minutes of play.  A lack of willingness to be ready for that ten minutes means we first spend time getting our bodies ready to focus: calm down on mats with music, watching a snowglobe, walking with me, whatever to get the child ready to go.  It does not take them long to learn that the lessons posted will be the ones done today, no matter what time it is, but in the same note, we build up slowly to the full work period over several years.  Last year was 3-5 minutes.  This year our goal is 10.  Next year it will be 20.

[Mike in SA]

"Needs to be fun" is a topic of perspective. For even the oldest, kids will always clamor that learning needs to be fun. For even the youngest, there is always an understanding that some things just need to be done.

 

Resistance often indicates that the level of depth is off. If mastery has been high, then radical acceleration or dramatic depth may be in order. If you have just seen sustained progress without surprising mastery, then a review using different materials or methods may be wise. You've got plenty of time to get it right.

[deerforest]

I'm fairly motivated to keep learning interesting and fun around here, and I still hold true to that even with a 6th grader. I consider it to be one of the benefits of homeschooling for our family. So, when DD gets stuck on something like that and is clearly frustrated, I do step away from that topic or curriculum for a bit. I might introduce new ways of looking at the same material. In the example you gave, I've found doing things like working with manipulatives to be very useful and engaging. I think it goes to what Mike in SA said about the level of depth being off and pulling in other materials. 

 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

I understand him since I had two that were always convinced that if they knew how to do something they shouldn't be asked to do it over again. But the distributive method is SO important, that I would insist on it - explaining that while the method he uses now might work for constants, when he gets to variables he will be so far ahead if he already understands the distributive method.  When I can PROVE that there's a reason to do something differently, and that by doing so my son will have an advantage down the road, then I can persuade him to do something he doesn't want to. But if that doesn't work, then just gentle yet intractable firmness. :-) 

[Alice]

My kids are not HG or PG, they're just a little ahead, so I hope it's okay if I ask here.  I anticipated being told I was pushing too difficult of work if I asked on the regular board, and I thought the perspective you guys are coming from might be more appropriate for our situation.

 

Anyways.  DS#1 is 7 1/2 yo in 2nd grade.  He's in the 2nd chapter of BA 4A and suddenly is throwing a fit that he doesn't want to do math!  He's fairly mathy and did all of BA 3C, 3D and the first chapter of 4A quickly and without issue over the course of 9-10ish weeks.  Now this second chapter of 4A is multi-digit multiplication, which he already learned and is proficient at even with very large numbers.  Buuuut, he doesn't want to do it any other way than the way he learned in RightStart.  We had tears this morning when his worksheet wanted him to use the distributive property to solve a simple 2-digit by 2-digit problem (problems 42 and 43).  It's not an issue of difficulty, but just that he doesn't LIKE to do it this way.

 

I've worked pretty hard to keep lessons short and fun up to this point.  But I'm not sure at what point you say, "This is the work that must be done.  I'm sorry you don't like it.  You still need to do it."  I don't want to crush his love of learning, but school can't ALL be fun forever!

 

I think it's fine to say that. I've said something like that to all my kids at some point. I think if you find you are saying it all the time and nothing is fun, you need to re-evaluate but if it's one subject or one topic or one lesson it's fine. I would say almost exactly what you wrote. "I know you don't like doing this, but there are things that are important to learn and you have to do them even if you don't like them." 

 

My oldest is good in math and would really complain when he got to a point where he could do the problems but not the way they wanted. Or where he had to show his work but he didn't really need to in his mind (he could do it in his head fine but I wanted him to write it out). One thing that helped was to only require him to do as much of the topic as to demonstrate that he COULD do it that way but then let him do the rest whatever way he wanted. And I would explain that to him. "Listen, they want you to learn this strategy because you are really going to need it when you get to bigger numbers. I know it seems boring and pointless but I need to make sure you understand how to do it. Do these five problems and write the whole thing out for me and do it their way. If you get them all right we'll move on and you can do the problems however you want." 

[Cake and Pi]

I'm not sure it's a depth problem.  The question that set him off today was 67x13, which, if I had just asked him out loud, "What's 67x13?" he would have quickly done in his head.  The worksheet asks the child do use the distributive property, which is EXACTLY what he does in his head, but written down in an organized way.  He wrote the problem out with the traditional multiplication algorithm instead.  I asked him to follow the method shown in the example and write out the solution using the distributive property.  Then he started crying and wrote on the top of the page "worst worksheet ever" and told me he didn't like this math and wouldn't do it.  This chapter has had a little more practice than BA usually has, and he's not the kind to need much practice to reach mastery (in math anyway).  The problems definitely get more interesting in a few more pages.... I'm tempted to let him pass over this section to make things fun again, but I feel being able to write out problems using the distributive property is a foundational skill that really ought not to be skipped.  I know he's going to need to be able to do this later!

 

 

I think it's fine to say that. I've said something like that to all my kids at some point. I think if you find you are saying it all the time and nothing is fun, you need to re-evaluate but if it's one subject or one topic or one lesson it's fine. I would say almost exactly what you wrote. "I know you don't like doing this, but there are things that are important to learn and you have to do them even if you don't like them." 

 

My oldest is good in math and would really complain when he got to a point where he could do the problems but not the way they wanted. Or where he had to show his work but he didn't really need to in his mind (he could do it in his head fine but I wanted him to write it out). One thing that helped was to only require him to do as much of the topic as to demonstrate that he COULD do it that way but then let him do the rest whatever way he wanted. And I would explain that to him. "Listen, they want you to learn this strategy because you are really going to need it when you get to bigger numbers. I know it seems boring and pointless but I need to make sure you understand how to do it. Do these five problems and write the whole thing out for me and do it their way. If you get them all right we'll move on and you can do the problems however you want." 

 

I love this idea!  I'm going to try this.  Thank you.

[deerforest]

He's going to be exposed to the distributive property many, many more times in his life. For me, personally, it would not be a hill to die on at this point. 

[daijobu]

He's going to be exposed to the distributive property many, many more times in his life. For me, personally, it would not be a hill to die on at this point. 

 

Agreed.  If he's doing it in his head, he probably gets it at some level.  And he'll be reintroduced to the distributive property again in pre algebra.  I vote for skipping it.  

[lewelma]

Tears of frustration are a sign that something is wrong.  Once you cry, no learning can be done. 

 

Learning how to write out mathematical thinking in mathematical symbols is NOT easy.  So just because he has the thinking, does not mean he can write it down.  The thinking is often web like and confused, whereas the writing has to be linear and crisp.  This is a very hard thing to learn to do.  Tell him that.  Separate out the two skills and tell him that he has one, but the other is tricky.  Then apprentice him into it over the period of days.  First, show him how to write it.  Then have him dictate it to you while you write it.  Then you write half and he writes half. Then he writes it while you are at his side.  And only then does he attempt to write it independently.  And at that point, there will still be backsliding and handholding required.  My younger boy took a full 2 years to be able to get his mental thoughts in mathematics into proper writing.  Some kids just struggle more than others.  

 

Ruth in NZ 

Edited December 16, 2015 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Agreed.  If he's doing it in his head, he probably gets it at some level.  And he'll be reintroduced to the distributive property again in pre algebra.  I vote for skipping it.  

 

I also agree with skipping it if all other mathematical writing is fine.  But if this is just one example of difficulty in mathematical writing, it is a sign of a larger problem that is worth slowly and carefully fighting for.  

[RoundAbout]

In general I think learning should be fun for elementary aged students.  Not necessarily over-the-top circus clown and balloon fun, but interesting, engaging, and creative.  I think 2nd grade is definitely too young to be overly serious about work that MUST be done, especially if they are working 2 grades ahead in math.  When we hit a rough patch I back off, try a different approach, crack a few jokes, break out some cookies, go for some exercise, collaborate on problems, and/or take it in very small doses.  Learning at this age should not be effortless because then nothing is retained, but it should not be painful or a chore either.  

Fun things I have done recently:

 

-Ordered joke a day cursive practice book
-Made "Wanted" posters for Greek Gods to practice writing, drawing, and prep for National Mythology Exam
-Taken a break from Pre-Algebra to do BA 5A when it came out, because the monsters rock!
-Practice narration with fun science videos instead of usual WWE
-Work at Starbucks and get a treat while working through a difficult problem set

Nothing crazy or over the top as I'm a pretty serious kind of mom, but it's really important to me that I have a good relationship with my son if we are going to homeschool for the long haul.  Also that he looks back on his homeschooling years fondly.  

 

[....]

7th grade.   :D   Just my opinion.  That's when I really start pushing my kids and have a "no-whining/no-complaining" policy.

[daijobu]

 

Fun things I have done recently:

 

-Ordered joke a day cursive practice book

 

 

What???  This is a thing?  How did I miss hearing about something that is so obviously awesome?  

[Seeking Squirrels]

I don't push to the point of tears or screaming, but I do sometimes say "I'm sorry you're not enjoying this lesson, but we need to do it anyway."

 

For a situation like you describe, I've done similar to what others suggested. DD did not want to do the problem a different way because she could already solve it one way. I explained to her that *this* problem could be solved either way, but that later we would get to problems that really needed the second way, so she needed to understand both ways so she could use whichever way was best on bigger problems. She still didn't like it, but she understood and did them the way she was supposed to.

[deerforest]

I also agree with skipping it if all other mathematical writing is fine.  But if this is just one example of difficulty in mathematical writing, it is a sign of a larger problem that is worth slowly and carefully fighting for.  

 

Yes, but it's an accelerated 2nd grader. I have a 2e gifted 6th grader; she's accelerated in math, not gifted compared to some here but definitely well above grade level. She too intuitively got the distributive property early on, and at that level I wasn't requiring a lot of output because her weakness is processing speed regarding output. I wasn't willing to hold back her progress for that. Now in 6th grade, it's a completely different ballgame. Her output skills have caught up and she's fine.

[mathnerd]

I stop if there is any boredom (or tears). When DS complains, it is mostly because he is tired or wants to do something else that is more interesting to him. When a situation arises when there is frustration due to inability to express things in writing but easy enough to visualize it mentally, I take over the writing, scribe the dictated answers for a few problems and then encourage DS to write them down. But, I am always at his side when he works, so it is never a case of a kid sitting alone on a desk tackling a problem that he does not want to write down on paper. We also circle around, go to do something else (either academics or physical activities) and then come back to the problem with a fresh mind later on.

 

In my opinion, learning does not have to be fun always, but, it should never be "boring". Some subjects are mandatory and have to be learned whether the child likes them or not - so, some of the learning is going to be very heavy going. But, if it is interesting and taught in a way that provokes thinking, then, it is OK if it is not fun.

[4KookieKids]

Even with my 6 yo, I'm ok saying "I know this isn't fun, but let's work really hard for 5/10 minutes (depending onthe day), and then we'll get it done! We have to do the not-fun things in order to be able to do more fun things" - and this applies beyond school work to chores and other areas as well. We need clean dishes to be able to eat, we need a clean workspace if we're going to build legos, and we need to practice reading so we can enjoy reading the things we want to read. It's a conversation that is ongoing in our house. :)

 

He hates subtraction. I'm not sure why. But multi-digit subtraction takes him FOREVER and he tells me how boring it is every time it comes up. I sympathize with him, but also am clear that it's gotta get done, and the quicker he does it, the sooner it'll be over. :) Though I may let him get by with half a lesson if it's taking a long time, since it's not like I'm in a rush to get through materials.

[Dmmetler]

Never. What I've found for DD is that if there is no purpose-either in the sense of "hey, this is fun" or "this will let me do something that's fun", it doesn't stick.

 

Having said that, the older she gets, the better she is at defining a given task as valuable and finding value. So. History, which she doesn't really like and often finds upsetting, gets illustrated and has commentary written in the margins. So do Latin translations, especially those she finds sexist or otherwise annoying. She is really good a personifying elements, so memorizing parts of a cell may turn into those cell parts arguing over which is the most important and why. Geometric constructions become parts of pictures.

 

And some things she finds fun in just innately. Spending hours outside listening for frogs=fun. Listening to lectures and learning new things is fun. AOPS math is either fun, or head-banging.y frustrating, but she's realized that it BECOMES fun when she really gets it.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that learning should be fun, but that it becomes the child's responsibility to make it fun, not the parent/teacher's or the curriculum's. For us, that started happening around age 7 1/2-8, and it mostly happened when I finally let her accelerate to where she needed to be, which meant that the books mostly didn't have the cute pictures and built in "fun" elements. It was then that she started creating her own. And I truly think that it was then when she really, truly to learn at a more deep level.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I didn't read all the responses. 

 

He might not have the maturity for those types of problems.  And really I don't even think it's a big deal if he just does it the way he wants for now.  He is 7.  It's a lot more than just whether or not they understand the material.  So many other factors.  Patience, organization, maturity, level of frustration they can handle, stamina, etc.  And when you are using something intended for an older kid you have to consider that it was not written with a younger kid in mind.  So you may need to make some adjustments to make it work.

 

In terms of fun.  Well I don't care if if it is fun in the sense it feels like a day at the carnival, but I do try to avoid making stuff soul crushingly boring or awful.  That said, some kids hate school or a subject no matter what you do.  I try not to take that personally. 

[klmama]

I would tell him that most of the time he can continue to multiply the way he already knows, but he also needs to learn to do it this way.  Then, have him do only one problem a day the new way while you move on to other topics.  If you don't think he has the maturity to handle that, skip it for now and come back to it later.  There's time.   

[Cake and Pi]

Thanks everyone!  I combined a lot of your suggestions and we were able to get it all worked out.  

 

DS#1 and I had a nice talk yesterday.  He said he didn't want to use the distributive property because it was faster to get the right answer in his head or with the other method written out.  I told him I didn't CARE what the answer was, that I was not trying to teach him to get ANSWERS but to SOLVE PROBLEMS and that the point of the exercise was to learn a different way of doing things that would be useful for later, harder problems (and then demonstrated one such problem).   

 

We talked about how Daddy is out in the real world working with math every day and that people's lives depend on him knowing a variety of ways to solve problems (he's a chemical engineer and has worked in weapons disarmament, radioactive cleanup, and recently plant start-ups in the private sector).  So yes, this worksheet is boring and seems pointless, but it's not.  It's training for the important work he may do as an adult.   Then DS#1 negotiated that he would do one problem the way they asked and if he got it correct I wouldn't make him do any more like it until the problems were harder and he couldn't use the other method or do it in his head.  I agreed, of course!