Devastated....dog related

[Halcyon]

What's odd to me, is this: we had a giant birthday party for oldest a couple of months ago--about 20 kids and their parents, blow up water slides, loud popcorn machine--and Kippy (that's his name) was absolutely fine. He did bark when the first guests started arriving, but after a while, he just sat down amongst all the guests and relaxed. What's that about?? There were people coming and going, petting him, greeting him--quite chaotic in fact. He was FINE. Happy, in fact. Could it be that we greeted each arrival and he saw that, and didn't feel threatened? Even when the dishwasher repairman came, I greeted him (the repairman), invited him in, and Kippy was fine. 

[Lady Florida.]

I live in Florida too and we exercise our miniature schnauzer inside during the summer when it's too hot outside or during the torrential rains that we've had this year. I can tell a huge difference in her behavior when she's been chasing a ball (or chasing my 13 year old son, her other favorite) for 20-30 minutes. It doesn't hurt the 13 year old, either.

 

 

 

We're in Florida and we also run around inside with our dog when it's too hot or wet to run outside or take him for walks. Well, not "we" but the teen. Like our Sheltie, your JR is an intelligent breed and a working dog. Both smart dogs and working dogs need a lot of exercise and a job. Without a job the dog will assign himself one, which could include chewing up your stuff or as in your case, attacking strangers. The "job" can be something as simple as a regular game played with his humans. Excuse the kitten killing apostrophes but this site had the clearest information about giving jobs to pet dogs. 

 

I don't think the dog will have to be put down but you might get fined and/or the dog might be put on a list. You should put a sign outside your door, possibly front and back doors if you regularly have people in the backyard (such as the gardeners).  Florida dog bite statute

 

:grouphug: It's hard, but it sounds like with work this dog can be trained. It will be work though, so be prepared to put in a lot of effort.  :grouphug:

[Halcyon]

Thank you. I did research florida laws and put a sign on our gate and a warning on our front door. THank you.

 

 

Took Kippy out for a run this morning; he lasted about 12 minutes before he sat on his butt and wouldn't move. So i guess he's out of shape. I will build him up to 1/2 hour of running in the morning, maybe more. It may also be the heat, as it was already 86 when we began our run.

 

 

[Pawz4me]

What's odd to me, is this: we had a giant birthday party for oldest a couple of months ago--about 20 kids and their parents, blow up water slides, loud popcorn machine--and Kippy (that's his name) was absolutely fine. He did bark when the first guests started arriving, but after a while, he just sat down amongst all the guests and relaxed. What's that about?? There were people coming and going, petting him, greeting him--quite chaotic in fact. He was FINE. Happy, in fact. Could it be that we greeted each arrival and he saw that, and didn't feel threatened? Even when the dishwasher repairman came, I greeted him (the repairman), invited him in, and Kippy was fine. 

 

Yes, I think so.

 

 

Thank you. I did research florida laws and put a sign on our gate and a warning on our front door. THank you.

 

 

Took Kippy out for a run this morning; he lasted about 12 minutes before he sat on his butt and wouldn't move. So i guess he's out of shape. I will build him up to 1/2 hour of running in the morning, maybe more. It may also be the heat, as it was already 86 when we began our run.

 

FWIW -- I doubt that lack of exercise is a cause or even a contributor to his SA and biting behavior.  That said, it sure won't hurt him to get as much exercise as possible.  The old saying "a tired dog is a good dog" is generally fairly true, but IME it's nowhere near a miracle cure for dogs with anxiety issues.  And do keep in mind that the more in shape he gets the more exercise will be required to tire him out.  If I were in your shoes I'd devote a little time every day to physical exercise and a LOT of time every day to training.  I'd teach him everything I could think of--every obedience command and every trick.  Mental exercise is fabulous for stressy dogs.  It tires them out better than physical exercise, and the more a dog knows (in general) the more confident he will feel.  Confident dogs aren't typically dogs that bite.

[Serenade]

Your post sends up all sorts of red flags to me.  The behavior you describe isn't typical of a puppy who isn't yet five months old.

Yeah, that's the feeling I got last time we were at the vet's. Prior to that, they didn't seem too concerned, but it was obvious at the last visit that something needed to be done, although the vet didn't suggest anything more than puppy classes. I'm even afraid to put her in a puppy class, though. However, she doesn't seem to be aggressive around other dogs. In fact, she seems to be frightened even of dogs much smaller than her.

 

Most young puppies (and grown dogs) aren't displaying protectiveness when they act as your puppy is.  Or if it is it's a bad form that you don't want.  At best your very young (still a baby) puppy is saying "this person is mine and I don't want you (vet or other person) around my possession."  It's not protective any more than a three-year old child saying to another one "No! That's my toy! You can't have it!" is being protective.

This is interesting, and something we hadn't considered. I am curious how she will behave at the vet's next time when they take her back without us. Her next visit is a little over a week away.

 

Another possibility is that it's fear related.  Unfortunately for dogs, many people commonly mistake a fear response for aggression.

This could be, but I'd have to wonder why?

 

We've had a lot of problems with her in regards to submissive/excitement pee, although this slowly seems to be getting better. Until about a week ago, she would almost always lay on her back and pee when we put the leash on her. Now it's more sporadic, and the pee amount is smaller. She would also pee when given the sit command, although she has not been doing that in the past week, either. Somehow I wonder if this is a clue as to her aggressive behavior.

 

A well trained, stable dog--the kind of dog who would protect you if a true need arose--is not typically the type of dog who reacts when the situation doesn't warrant it.

I guess they just figure it out?

 

I really think you need to get a trainer in to see your pup (or, even better, a veterinary behaviorist like Halcyon is seeing). Your pup's breeder may be another good source of advice.  You need someone knowledgeable who can see your pup in action in person.  Whatever is going on--whether it's fear or possession aggression, the level of aggression you describe isn't normal at all for puppies that age, and something you need to be very proactively working on to extinguish before the pup gets any older.

Yes, I agree. I think we will give the puppy class a try first, and maybe the trainer there can make further recommendations. Sheesh, I hope she won't get thrown out of the puppy class!

 

ETA: She is a huge fan of squeaky toys -- she really likes to squeak, and she will eventually get the squeaker out of the toy. She goes through a squeaky toy every week or two. We keep her well-supplied because that keeps her from chewing the furniture, but is the squeaky toy play maybe a bad thing?

[fairfarmhand]

S

 

 

And how does one balance between keeping a dog for some protection out in the country, and having that same dog be friendly to others?

 

 

We have LGDs. We solve this problem by leaving them at home. They get confused by mixed signals...protect at home, don't protect outside of the home, so we don't take them anywhere. They are great dogs but they are not meant to be hauled around. (our dogs)

 

YMMV.

 

(We seldom travel and ours are Great Pyrs...quite different from a Border Collie. This is just what we do. LGDs are very independent dogs, and training is a ton harder than with many other dog breeds. We have better success when we adapt our expectations to our dogs' natural bent)

[laundrycrisis]

IMO it's the front door.  It's a freak out zone.  Our dog is fine with guests coming in, the petsitter, the piano tuner, etc.  He barks for a minute, sniffs them, and settles down.  It is just someone being at the front door - he flips out. 

 

 

What's odd to me, is this: we had a giant birthday party for oldest a couple of months ago--about 20 kids and their parents, blow up water slides, loud popcorn machine--and Kippy (that's his name) was absolutely fine. He did bark when the first guests started arriving, but after a while, he just sat down amongst all the guests and relaxed. What's that about?? There were people coming and going, petting him, greeting him--quite chaotic in fact. He was FINE. Happy, in fact. Could it be that we greeted each arrival and he saw that, and didn't feel threatened? Even when the dishwasher repairman came, I greeted him (the repairman), invited him in, and Kippy was fine. 

 

[TravelingChris]

My dog barks like crazy if someone is on our property that he doesn't know.  He knows our cleaner but doesn;t know the utility reader who was mistakenly looking by our front windows for a gas meter (aren't those usually on the side or out back? Ours is on the side).  I appreciate his barking so I know who is about.  But heis quite once I open the door and wags his tale when I greet the person nicely.

[Spy Car]

Thank you. I did research florida laws and put a sign on our gate and a warning on our front door. THank you.

 

 

Took Kippy out for a run this morning; he lasted about 12 minutes before he sat on his butt and wouldn't move. So i guess he's out of shape. I will build him up to 1/2 hour of running in the morning, maybe more. It may also be the heat, as it was already 86 when we began our run.

 

86 with high humidity is where many dogs fade. Watch for any signs of overheating (it can be deadly). But yea, Kippy sounds very out of shape. Is he obese?

 

You should also check the nails. They should be short. If they are overgrown it can cause orthopedic problems. Could be  process to shorten them. I like using a dremmel.

 

Pace yourself (and Kibby). If you pursue the drug options, work on bite inhibition (talk with your behaviorist), train for crating at the from dog, and build up exercise (and mental stimulation), you will be making progress on all fronts.

 

Bill

[Lady Florida.]

Yes, I think so.

 

 

 

FWIW -- I doubt that lack of exercise is a cause or even a contributor to his SA and biting behavior.  That said, it sure won't hurt him to get as much exercise as possible.  The old saying "a tired dog is a good dog" is generally fairly true, but IME it's nowhere near a miracle cure for dogs with anxiety issues.  

 

 

I agree that exercise is not a cure for behavior problems (nor is lack of it a cause) but a dog prone to stress will be even more stressed without enough exercise. And though I didn't include it in the quote above, it's also true that mental exercise is very important.

 

86 with high humidity is where many dogs fade. Watch for any signs of overheating (it can be deadly). But yea, Kippy sounds very out of shape. Is he obese?

 

 

 

Another issue is the hot ground on a dog's pads. If there isn't a grassy area to walk the dog, it's best to skip the walk than to burn his pads on hot pavement.

[Spy Car]

I agree that exercise is not a cure for behavior problems (nor is lack of it a cause) but a dog prone to stress will be even more stressed without enough exercise. And though I didn't include it in the quote above, it's also true that mental exercise is very important.

 

 

Another issue is the hot ground on a dog's pads. If there isn't a grassy area to walk the dog, it's best to skip the walk than to burn his pads on hot pavement.

 

I know it's tough when the overnight low is 83.

 

Bill

[Halcyon]

86 with high humidity is where many dogs fade. Watch for any signs of overheating (it can be deadly). But yea, Kippy sounds very out of shape. Is he obese?

 

You should also check the nails. They should be short. If they are overgrown it can cause orthopedic problems. Could be  process to shorten them. I like using a dremmel.

 

Pace yourself (and Kibby). If you pursue the drug options, work on bite inhibition (talk with your behaviorist), train for crating at the from dog, and build up exercise (and mental stimulation), you will be making progress on all fronts.

 

Bill

 

 

Yes, it's 86 or higher during the day. He is definitely out of shape, but not obese at all--vet thinks he's "in great shape" but clearly, he needs to work up to his runs. Took him out for another run tonight--he ran about 20 minutes, and it was easier for him--what i did was "interval" training--slowed down for a bit, and then did a short burst and then repeated. He seemed to like that. But this is a first for him, so I will build him up slowly. 

 

When he got home tonight, he drank some water and collapsed in a heap LOL. Even when I started petting the other animals (usually his signal to come running "What about me? What about me?") he just lay there. So that's a good thing! He is already on Trazadone for separation anxiety, but I am considering something continuous -- trazadone is only given when we are leavin gthe house, and he needs to be checked for liver changes every few months, so I don't really like that. The vet says Kippy should NOT be crated, that it will increase his anxiety (we tried crating him for months, and he chewed through two metal crates due to anxiety). She has us "mat training" him, which is going very well.

 

Thanks for all your insight, Bill. It's a long road in front of us, but I think we can do it. 

[Halcyon]

 

 

 

Another issue is the hot ground on a dog's pads. If there isn't a grassy area to walk the dog, it's best to skip the walk than to burn his pads on hot pavement.

i make sure he runs on the grass adjacent to the road. Thanks for the reminder.

[Spy Car]

Yes, it's 86 or higher during the day. He is definitely out of shape, but not obese at all--vet thinks he's "in great shape" but clearly, he needs to work up to his runs. Took him out for another run tonight--he ran about 20 minutes, and it was easier for him--what i did was "interval" training--slowed down for a bit, and then did a short burst and then repeated. He seemed to like that. But this is a first for him, so I will build him up slowly. 

 

When he got home tonight, he drank some water and collapsed in a heap LOL. Even when I started petting the other animals (usually his signal to come running "What about me? What about me?") he just lay there. So that's a good thing! He is already on Trazadone for separation anxiety, but I am considering something continuous -- trazadone is only given when we are leavin gthe house, and he needs to be checked for liver changes every few months, so I don't really like that. The vet says Kippy should NOT be crated, that it will increase his anxiety (we tried crating him for months, and he chewed through two metal crates due to anxiety). She has us "mat training" him, which is going very well.

 

Thanks for all your insight, Bill. It's a long road in front of us, but I think we can do it. 

 

Interval training is a great idea. Good for you both.

 

Glad to hear you're off to such a good start. Combining physical exercise with mental stimulation is important for any dog, but JRTs are almost a special case in this regard. I think you'll see a different dog soon. Not that every issue (biting/anxiety) disappears with exercise and mental stimulation, but they are necessary for good mental health.

 

I'm encouraged, and would love to hear updates.

 

Bill

[cjzimmer1]

I haven't read through al lthe thread but just wanted to let you know that keeping a dog with a known "record" can have far reaching consequences.  When my daughter was 3 we were visiting my mo.  My mom ran out and ran an errand and I was home alone with the kids.  I was nursing one and my 3 year old decides she wanted to hand feed the dog, she reached into the dog's dish while it was eating and it nipped her on the cheek.  Not an attack, just a warning as soon as she moved away the dog was quiet again. Anyways, a few days later the bite got infected and we had to take him to the ER (since everything else was closed at that time and it couldn't wait until morning at that point). Let's just say things got ugly, ER had to report it to the police, police had to investigate within the next two hours per their regulations (despite this happening 3 days earlier), so at midnight the police show up at my parents house and have to investigate the dog.  Dog had to be quaranteed, rabies tested etc.  Because I had taken her to the doctor, my insurance didn't want to cover it so it had to go to my parent's home owner's insurance.  They paid the claim and we thought we were done with it.  Five YEARS later, insurance company refused to cover my parents since the dog was still living on the property.  There was a new law passed and even through they had covered my parents for 5 years without further incidences, dog was now considered a vicious dog and they wouldn't cover them anymore.  To make matters worse, they also considered all dogs on the property to be of concern so even when the biting dog was put to sleep (due to old age issues not because of the biting incidence), my parents had problems obtained coverage for the non-biting dog.  Anyways, I'm just mentioning this because the ramification were far far more severe than any of us would have thought from one simple nip.  So whatever you decide make sure to research the law and insurance stuff carefully.

 

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this.

[Daria]

What's odd to me, is this: we had a giant birthday party for oldest a couple of months ago--about 20 kids and their parents, blow up water slides, loud popcorn machine--and Kippy (that's his name) was absolutely fine. He did bark when the first guests started arriving, but after a while, he just sat down amongst all the guests and relaxed. What's that about?? There were people coming and going, petting him, greeting him--quite chaotic in fact. He was FINE. Happy, in fact. Could it be that we greeted each arrival and he saw that, and didn't feel threatened? Even when the dishwasher repairman came, I greeted him (the repairman), invited him in, and Kippy was fine. 

 

I'm skittish about dogs, because a child I am very close to was mauled by someone's family pet, a dog that had shown a few warning signs but had never bitten until one day it startled her, and then she scared it with her screaming, and then she was at the hospital getting hundreds of stitches, and multiple surgeries.

 

As a parent, I'd be pretty horrified to find out that a dog with a history of biting was allowed to run loose at a birthday party with my kid.  I'm really glad that it went well, but you have a responsibility to lock him up in situations like that.  

[sunshine clementine]

I haven't read all of the responses, so I apologize if I am being redundant.  My husband was a mail carrier for years.  He is excellent with animals and people and he refused to carry the dog-spray because using the spray always did more harm than anything else.  Anyhow, he was bit in a similar situation as what you describe.  It was an older single lady and she had a small dog. My husband was never a permanent carrier for any specific route, so in this instance, like your own, this dog was completely unfamiliar with this mailman.  Anyway, she opened the door, and the dog ran out and bit him on the leg.  It was a very small puncture wound, but since it broke the skin, he had to report it.  Their regulations are to quarantine the dog, always.  My husband felt terrible because this was this lady's family basically, and he knew that the dog had been vaccinated, but they still quarantine.

 

The postal investigation people are going to be "low-key" because this happens all.the.time.  They deal with dogs (and people's strange eccentricities) in a way that unless you experience it for yourself, it is pretty hard to imagine. 

 

I hope that you can find the help you need in training your pup...I really believe that there is a solution.  ((hugs))

 

Hope this all works out for you.

[lmrich]

A long time ago we had these indoor electronic devices called zones. It worked like an invinsible fence for inside the house. They worked great for our dog at the time (she was very obedient but could not resist chasing a squirrel and our kids and their friends often left the front door open...) Our dog would not cross the zone. We never turned off the zone and let her cross into the front hallway. She went for walks with us out the side door or could go into the fenced back yard. We did not want her to run into traffic while chasing a squirrel.  Hope you find a solution. I love my dog so much; I could not imagine the idea of losing her.

[Serenade]

We have LGDs. We solve this problem by leaving them at home. They get confused by mixed signals...protect at home, don't protect outside of the home, so we don't take them anywhere. They are great dogs but they are not meant to be hauled around. (our dogs)

 

YMMV.

Mostly this would work for us, too, except when we have to go to the vet and when we go camping. Otherwise she is at home. Right now, our prime trouble area is going to the vet, since camping season is coming to an end.

 

(We seldom travel and ours are Great Pyrs...quite different from a Border Collie. This is just what we do. LGDs are very independent dogs, and training is a ton harder than with many other dog breeds. We have better success when we adapt our expectations to our dogs' natural bent)

Makes sense.

 

Thanks for your input.

[Halcyon]

Interval training is a great idea. Good for you both.

 

Glad to hear you're off to such a good start. Combining physical exercise with mental stimulation is important for any dog, but JRTs are almost a special case in this regard. I think you'll see a different dog soon. Not that every issue (biting/anxiety) disappears with exercise and mental stimulation, but they are necessary for good mental health.

 

I'm encouraged, and would love to hear updates.

 

Bill

 

 

Thanks Bill.

 

One quick question--he is not a purebred JRT--he's a mutt, but mostly JRT. Maybe this has something to do with his inability to run as well? His legs are pretty short, and he's more "stocky" than a purebred JRT. 

[Spy Car]

Thanks Bill.

 

One quick question--he is not a purebred JRT--he's a mutt, but mostly JRT. Maybe this has something to do with his inability to run as well? His legs are pretty short, and he's more "stocky" than a purebred JRT.

It would just be speculation on my part. My guess is the dog is very out of shape. it sounds like you are using your inner-intelligence to jugde how much exercise is productive, and when to rest. I'd keep on like that. I'd also operate under the assumption that Kippy will get stronger over time. Work up to it using your sense.

 

Pure JRTs have very strong prey dives and a very strong need to run. I'd be surprised if these traits disappeared in a cross. You'll know better than me.

 

If you stand over Kippy, can you see a defined "waist"?

 

Bill

[Halcyon]

It's not a particularly defined waist--slightly narrower but not much at all. 

[Spy Car]

It's not a particularly defined waist--slightly narrower but not much at all. 

 

That will (should) change as Kippy gets fit. 

 

With the steadily increasing physical exercise also speak with your behaviorist about working on both "bite inhibition" training and on appropriate mental stimulation.

 

Experience shows that mental exercise is even more tiring/relaxing for dogs than physical exercise. JRTs are highly-wound. It is in the genes, being related to their work as hunting dogs/terriers. Dogs with no "work" (especially when they are a breed bred for "work") isn't any happier than a dog that doesn't run when that need is in the DNA.

 

I know you're getting hit with a lot all at once. Pace yourself, but a multi-pronged approach is your best bet. I know how much you care.

 

Bill

[mamajag]

okay i just ordered a sign for our front gate--one that says LEAVE ALL PACKAGES HERE (I don't need them coming up the driveway--nobody takes anything in our neighbourhood) and BEWARE OF DOG. Ugh. Heartbroken.

 

Drop the beware sign. In some cases the signs have been used as "proof" the owner knows the dog has serious issues. You don't want to label him yet if training and vet intervention can help him.

[TeacherZee]

Could you set up an agility course in the garden? That would provide mental stimulation as well as exercise

[Halcyon]

Drop the beware sign. In some cases the signs have been used as "proof" the owner knows the dog has serious issues. You don't want to label him yet if training and vet intervention can help him.

 

 

In Florida, if you have a sign on your gate that says BEWARE DOGS you are NOT liable for anything that happens on your property to anyone under the age of 6. Weird but true. So I think the sign is a necessity.

[Daria]

In Florida, if you have a sign on your gate that says BEWARE DOGS you are NOT liable for anything that happens on your property to anyone under the age of 6. Weird but true. So I think the sign is a necessity.

 

So you're liable to what happens to people who aren't old enough to read the sign, but not the adults who should have the sense to stay away?  

[Spy Car]

I found an article in Psychology Today asking people if they had "Jack Russell brains?"

 

The salient point being how much JRTs (and some people) need "massive amounts of mental and physical stimulation" to be happy.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/tipping-sacred-cows/201404/do-you-have-jack-russell-brain

 

Bill (who figures if he's made a point once, he might as well drive it into the ground :D )

[mamajag]

In Florida, if you have a sign on your gate that says BEWARE DOGS you are NOT liable for anything that happens on your property to anyone under the age of 6. Weird but true. So I think the sign is a necessity.

 

Here in Mississippi we have been warned not to use them. I'd love to have one for my girl. She's got some anxiety issues. Since Florida offers protection, yes I would do it.

[kiwik]

Hang on you aren't liable for the kids who can't read the sign just the adults and older children. If a child and their mother is attacked you are liable for the mother not the child?

[UCF612]

I read the statute to mean you were not liable for injuries if you have a sign except for people under six or negligence on your part as owner.

[Halcyon]

So you're liable to what happens to people who aren't old enough to read the sign, but not the adults who should have the sense to stay away?  

 

 

My error-you are liable for anyone 6 and under, but not for adults, who should read the sign and stay away. Sorry!

[UCF612]

I think we'll need to get a sign for our new house. Our dog hasn't bit before but after reading that statute I'd rather have that sign up (we are on FL too). Our new house only has a chain link fence whereas our current house has tall privacy fencing and that worries me.

[Spy Car]

Halycon, 

 

Something I'd add (like you don't have enough instructions so far :D) is to work on doing sit/stays and releases when crossing through thresholds. So if you are going to open the back door, put the dog in a sit/stay open the door (you cross the threshold) then you can release the dog. Do mix up the pattern of what you do here in terms of release (sometimes coming back in with the door closing, sometimes coming back to the dog and releasing to go out, sometimes releasing from outside, etc).

 

With food, put in a sit/stay, put food down, wait, release. If sit/stay breaks pick up food before he gets in and silently put him back into sit/stay in original spot. Do this every time. No bowl down without an enforced sit/stay first.

 

Small things. But they add up.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

[AuNaturel]

It sounds like he needs to be trained. Separation anxiety or not, when he's commanded to sit, stay, etc. he should. That will prevent such issues in the future. All my dogs have been rescued/strays. They've all had their mental issues due to neglect or abuse, but when I tell them to do something, they are going to do it. Dogs need structure, especially ones that have difficulty controlling their behavior in their own.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Halcyon]

Thanks everyone for all the wonderful advice. I am going to be implementing all of it--some of it we already do, but I need to ramp it up.

 

We went to our monthly behavioral vet appointment today, and she was actually very pleased with how much better kippy seemed in general--he was more relaxed and stayed on his mat for the appointment. I told her about the postman and she says it is unfortunately common, but that it is good I am taking it seriously. She is also going to potentially put him on Prozac or something longer-term. She is now having me work on leaving the room and NOT having him follow me--basically trying to teach him he doesn't need to stick to me like glue. 

 

Thanks all.

[AngelaVA]

I haven't read all the replies but is it possible for you to install a screen door? One with a window that opens at the top would be perfect. It would make it difficult for your dog to bolt.

 

 

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