A Question for Those Who've Taught Children (not your own) that Are Homeschooled...

[vonfirmath]

This is not TX (but rather, NC), but I couldn't find historical graduation requirements for TX:

 

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/accountability/policyoperations/transition/historygradreq.pdf

 

Once upon a time (from 1953 to 1982), in North Carolina, students needed only one math unit to graduate high school. It wasn't until 1996 that they needed algebra I (by then they also needed at least 3 units of math).

 

Odd. I graduated 1991 in Texas and we needed Alg 1, alg 2, Geometry (or a designation that would allow 3 other math credits to be substitured. Neither my sister or I needed it so I don't know how that worked)

 

THere was also a college-bound graduation path that recommended at minimum analytic geometry/trigonometry beyond this and AP CAlculus if you can find a way to get the credits in.

 

[Halftime Hope]

I've taught post-secondary post-homeschool young adults -- I'm a Bible college prof.

 

My answer is that the majority of them (aside from true difficulties such as dyslexia) are capable of the academic skills required by the environment -- involving basic academic research and writing.

 

They are sometimes noticably advanced in their ability to participate in classroom discussion and display early post-secondary levels of critical thinking.

 

However, a very common flaw I see from homeschooling backgrounds is lower than average ability to plan for a rigorous schedule and apply the co-ordinated self discipline required to complete multiple assignments (from more than one class) on time without making a crisis out of it. Of course, this can be hard for many just-out-of-high-school students, but I've observed it very frequently from homeschool backgrounds.

 

A math prof at a well-regarded nearby college told me that she saw a lot of homeschooled kids who just didn't seem to grasp that they did, indeed, have to complete all the assignments as list on her syllabi.  I found that interesting, and I asked if she ever had the same issue with kids from public schools.  Her very unexpected answer was that she had no way of knowing who had been to public schools or private schools.  I wondered how she knew that the kids she mentioned were from homeschooling backgrounds, but I didn't feel like outright asking her that. 

 

I can see her statement being true:  homeschooled kids may have been allowed to wiggle their way out of requirements by their parents, but I'm not sure I buy that she knew that as a frequent pattern.  (My homeschooled kids have not wanted it to be public knowledge with their profs or classroom peers; they have not wanted to be singled out as different.)

[bolt.]

In a small Bible college, we do know the students reasonably well, and I'm only basing my hypothesis on self-identified homeschoolers.

 

That said, I don't have a large sample size, and I'm only thinking I see a bit of a trend of more struggles than average in skill-set I identified. It's completely average for newly post-secondary students to have some struggles in that area.

 

For a bit of detail, my students don't have to complete all the assignments on the syllabus... They will just accrue the zeros due to them for non-completion, which leads to poor grades or course failure if it becomes a habit. But that's a choice students get to make. They pay for my services, and they can fail courses if they want to.

 

In my case, there's just a lot of, "Gee whiz, prof, I'm trying really hard, but I got behind. I have [a cold, a work commitment, another assignment...] Is it ok tomorrow? Or Monday?" Which gets them an extension-with-penalties, which isn't the end of the world (for me or them), but it reveals the underlying expectation that maybe they expected 'understanding' instead of strict adherence.

 

This happens with lots of students. I'm still trying to figure out if the apparent-to-me homeschool trend is reality or illusion (or bias).

[Joanne]

Yes, that is absolutely my experience.

[Chelli]

Yes, that is absolutely my experience.

 

I was hoping you would answer, Joanne, since we live in the same area.

 

Do you find it to be an across the board behind in all the basic subjects or just behind in one, like behind in math, but advanced in language arts?

[Joanne]

I was hoping you would answer, Joanne, since we live in the same area.

 

Do you find it to be an across the board behind in all the basic subjects or just behind in one, like behind in math, but advanced in language arts?

 

In general, science, math, writing, and study skills in general are commonly behind.

 

Often literature and history are adequate or strong.

[brett_ashley]

I am an administrator at a university-style prep school in Texas, and yes, we do see homeschoolers seriously unprepared in some areas.  Anecdotally, more than half do not test on grade level in some area.  In my experience, however, homeschoolers tend to be one or two years ahead in the disciplines their parent likes to teach, and one or two years behind in what they do not like to teach.  (You can imagine that this makes scheduling a nightmare).  They frequently expect leniency on assignment due dates, feel overwhelmed by the work load, and have never had a cumulative final exam without test helps before.  They also frequently are avid readers and thinkers and are crucial to the culture we are building at the school.  

 

We are a new school, and five years ago when we started, the level of preparation students had didn't matter as much, as we all came from different places.  Now we are having serious concerns about how the gap will continue to widen.  Most kids entering logic school next year will have done all of their grammar schooling at our school which could make it very, very difficult for kids to transfer in and keep up with the veterans who are accustomed to the classical pedagogy and workload.

 

 

[Orthodox6]

I am an administrator at a university-style prep school in Texas, and yes, we do see homeschoolers seriously unprepared in some areas. Anecdotally, more than half do not test on grade level in some area. In my experience, however, homeschoolers tend to be one or two years ahead in the disciplines their parent likes to teach, and one or two years behind in what they do not like to teach. (You can imagine that this makes scheduling a nightmare). They frequently expect leniency on assignment due dates, feel overwhelmed by the work load, and have never had a cumulative final exam without test helps before. They also frequently are avid readers and thinkers and are crucial to the culture we are building at the school.

 

We are a new school, and five years ago when we started, the level of preparation students had didn't matter as much, as we all came from different places. Now we are having serious concerns about how the gap will continue to widen. Most kids entering logic school next year will have done all of their grammar schooling at our school which could make it very, very difficult for kids to transfer in and keep up with the veterans who are accustomed to the classical pedagogy and workload.

Excellent observations. (wondering which is your school)

 

We always have held to deadlines unless a serious interference occurs (illness, not just a little cold; accident that slows down work, such as a broken bone; computer system down; etc.)

 

I plead wholly guilty to the charge of students having stronger prep in subjects of interest to me, or which are a strength for me. I work to counteract this problem which is realistic for many people.

 

I particularly notice your observation about cumulative testing. This is a real concern for college preparation (and for transitioning into an outside school such as public or private). My own observation is that many -- and I am tempted to claim "most", although I cannot prove it -- homeschooling curricula do not provide cumulative exams. I sure do not have time to create them. Would like to her from other posters with regard to this. Thanks!

[Sun]

I don't know what percent it is, but I've definitely seen it.

 

There are a lot of unschoolers in our area, and while I've seen some fabulous unschoolers who really do amazing things, I've also seen some where unschooling may be more nonschooling. If you tell me about how your child's math education is through Minecraft, I'm going to side-eye you a little!

 

I also regularly hear that "kids will learn it when they're ready," and "they can learn all the math they need in just a few months once they get interested." I'm not convinced that really works as well as the people saying hope it will.

[Amy in NH]

Excellent observations. (wondering which is your school)

 

We always have held to deadlines unless a serious interference occurs (illness, not just a little cold; accident that slows down work, such as a broken bone; computer system down; etc.)

 

I plead wholly guilty to the charge of students having stronger prep in subjects of interest to me, or which are a strength for me. I work to counteract this problem which is realistic for many people.

 

I particularly notice your observation about cumulative testing. This is a real concern for college preparation (and for transitioning into an outside school such as public or private). My own observation is that many -- and I am tempted to claim "most", although I cannot prove it -- homeschooling curricula do not provide cumulative exams. I sure do not have time to create them. Would like to her from other posters with regard to this. Thanks!

 

I don't care about cumulative exams.  I'm more interested in authentic assessment: Can they make connections between new and prior knowledge? Can they transfer their new knowledge to novel situations? 

 

I think instead of considering some of these observations as flaws we may do better to understand how they influence cognitive development and intellectual growth. Perhaps we can improve existing school structures by incorporating them.  What is more important - an arbitrary deadline or mastery of competency?  It's really a paradigm shift. Instead of keeping the focus on facilitation of learning, the convenience of the teacher to perpetuate group instruction on a particular timetable seems to be the priority of institutional education.

[brett_ashley]

I don't care about cumulative exams.  I'm more interested in authentic assessment: Can they make connections between new and prior knowledge? Can they transfer their new knowledge to novel situations? 

 

 

The two are not exclusive.  Classical schools like ours design exams so they give the student the opportunity to demonstrate what they have learned by synthesizing the relevant material across disciplines to make new connections.

 

 

What is more important - an arbitrary deadline or mastery of competency? 

 

Another false dilemma.  Both are important.  As with many things in life, it's possible that the harder it is for a student to meet an "arbitrary" deadline, the more essential it is for him to do so and develop that habit.

 

 

Instead of keeping the focus on facilitation of learning, the convenience of the teacher to perpetuate group instruction on a particular timetable seems to be the priority of institutional education.

 

You are absolutely right about this drawback to institutional education.  Of course, there are a number of benefits to the traditional way of schooling as well.  

[Orthodox6]

I don't care about cumulative exams. I'm more interested in authentic assessment: Can they make connections between new and prior knowledge? Can they transfer their new knowledge to novel situations?

 

I think instead of considering some of these observations as flaws we may do better to understand how they influence cognitive development and intellectual growth. Perhaps we can improve existing school structures by incorporating them. What is more important - an arbitrary deadline or mastery of competency? It's really a paradigm shift. Instead of keeping the focus on facilitation of learning, the convenience of the teacher to perpetuate group instruction on a particular timetable seems to be the priority of institutional education.

Message boards are difficult places to communicate clearly!

 

I really don't have so shallow an approach to education as you possibly concluded.

[shage]

These kinds of threads are interesting and amusing, and likely tell us more about sampling than homeschooling.

 

I taught an AP psych class to homeschooled students and 80% of the class earned 4 or 5's on the exam.  That is not typical results and I don't take credit for it.  I have taught at the university level enough to know that the particular class I had was bright, motivated, and quirky.  They were great fun to teach.  Good readers and solid thinkers.  Where they representative of our homeschooling community?  Probably not, given that most families are not homeschooling older teens and kids without at least some academic bent would shy away from advanced placement.  Several teens were taking the course specifically because they were looking for academic recommendations beyond mom--meaning, they had taken few (if any) outsourced classes. 

 

My own kids tend to score unusually high in math on standardized tests but are not stellar writers. 

 

On any standardized test, you would expect 50% of the kids to be 50th percentile or lower.  Because, statistics. (Most tests infer grade level equivalents from the means).  So a program with 50% of the kids scoring "behind" grade level is probably an indication of a broad sample and not much more than that.  JMO. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brett_ashley]

On any standardized test, you would expect 50% of the kids to be 50th percentile or lower.  Because, statistics. (Most tests infer grade level equivalents from the means).  So a program with 50% of the kids scoring "behind" grade level is probably an indication of a broad sample and not much more than that.  JMO. 

 

Sorry I was not more specific--I'm not referring to standardized tests, but placement tests designed to determine readiness of the student to handle our specific courseload.  Our tests aim to approximate reading level, number sense, mathematical concepts, etc and also include a writing sample.  Obviously, there is no universal standard that dictates "this is what on-level for 5th grade looks like," but we have applicants from public school (40%), homeschool (40%), and private school (20%), and the vast majority of our remedial placements are for students from homeschools.  Not even close.  

 

Again, those students are superb in many ways, and you could certainly make the argument that they will be better prepared for life because of the choices that homeschooling parent made.  They're just not prepared for Algebra I or AP English.  

[Shellydon]

I've taught classes for elementary through high school in my co-op.  Some of the kids are absolutely behind.  Those with learning disabilities do not concern me, but I have met several families where school is not done at all.   Most of the kids struggle with meeting deadlines and being reasonable quiet in class.

[purplejackmama]

It's ironic. My public school teacher friends see these same unprepared, woefully behind, lacking basic math knowledge in their classrooms.

[shage]

It's ironic. My public school teacher friends see these same unprepared, woefully behind, lacking basic math knowledge in their classrooms.

Right.

 

I have taught many university classes and a shocking number of students are not prepared with basic reading, writing, and math skills.

 

They are horrific with deadlines.

 

Not to mention plagiarism.

 

I don't doubt that university model schools are seeing under prepared homeschoolers. I also know that the home schooled kids I taught were very well prepared for AP (with few outside classes).

 

Demographics.

 

Homeschoolers are a widely diverse group.

 

 

ETA Thinking about this some more. We are long term homeschoolers and would be highly unlikely to outsource 2 days per week unless a child needed friends or was struggling in a particular academic area. We host robotics programs out of our garage and the claim that homeschoolers are behind in math and science does not ring true for me at all. But, pretty sure we appeal to the families who have geeky kids looking for geeky academic and social outlets.

[Rivka]

I taught "Foundations of Math" to homeschooled teens last year. We went through a big chunk of Lial's Basic College Math. I billed the class as an opportunity to fill in any gaps in basic mathematics before going on to algebra. The 12 kids in the class fell into two basic groups: one motivated group who did all the assignments, progressed well, and could have learned even more math than I taught, and one challenged group who often didn't do the assignments, didn't seem to learn much math, and fell further and further behind. That was the class that taught me that I shouldn't try to teach skills classes to mixed groups of homeschoolers, because I don't have the experience and skill to work with such a diverse group.

 

This year I'll be teaching high school psychology. I've gotten permission from the homeschool center to kick kids out of my class if they aren't willing to do the work, so this should go more smoothly. Plus it's not based on cumulative skills, so that should help.

 

FWIW, many of the kids who struggled in my math class had recently been in school. And some of the kids who did extremely well were unschooled and hadn't previously done much math - but they were sharp. They were intellectually awake and engaged.

 

I am aware that a lot of families homeschool because their kids aren't a good fit for public school. I think I eventually found out, by the end of the year, that 40% of my students in that math class had once had an IEP. So when I see a wide range of preparation - and I do - I don't assume that it's because of the inadequacy of the homeschool education provided.

[Happy2BaMom]

When my kids were younger, I had this imaginary student that set the bar. The smartest, hardest working kid in the perfect school and I nearly died trying to keep my kids on pace with that person. Before personalities and LDs knocked some sense into me,

But as my kids have mostly non-homeschooled friends now, I have a better sense of what is out there and it really is a have/have not situation. About half are totally fine, will be fine in college, have had competent teachers and good schools. The rest have not. They are in poor schools with barely adequate resources and they will be taking remedial classes in whatever college they go to.

 

If that is the case with public school students, why should we think that homeschoolers (in the aggregate) would be different?

 

Because, for many years, homeschool advocates have proudly crowed about how much BETTER homeschoolers do when compared to public school kids. They beat the drum about how fabulous homeschool children perform compared to their public school conterparts. (Note: I was never on that bandwagon, but I can't count the number of times I've heard or read some homeschool parent bragging about this supposed fact.)

 

About 35-40% of the homeschooled kids at the local program where my kids go are at or below the 40%ile in reading and/or math. I know because I helped distribute MAP test results last year. I have a daughter who has learning disabilities. I doubt she will ever test much over the 50th percentile, so I have some empathy for parents whose kids don't test well. However, I do think regularly having a significant number of underperforming homeschooled kids risks creating credibility issues for all homeschoolers.

 

I personally am uncomfortable using the argument of "why would homeschool kids be any different" or it's close, usually unspoken, cousin: "well, homeschooled kids don't perform any worse than public school kids". Many of the bottom 50%ile in public schools are children who come from inner cities, broken homes, poverty-stricken areas. The school district where I live has many elementary schools that are producing 95%+ of kids over the 50th %ile in both reading and math. I still don't send my kids there, for many different reasons, but I remind myself often that that's where the bar is at. The bar is not "so many kids in public school are unprepared as well".

 

My theory is that the first waves of homeschoolers had to face incredible obstacles to homeschool, and that that opposition made them tough and determined to succeed and gave them discipline to follow through on that determination. My sense is that there are a good number of homeschoolers who now take it for granted, let their schedules get overly busy, buy into the belief that anything is better than public school, and go from there.

[MysteryJen]

Well, since you quoted me, I feel compelled to respond. Homeschoolers in a given area reflect the community as a whole. So if you live in an highly educated area with well functioning schools, homeschoolers will reflect that population. I live in an area which is diverse in race and income and we have plenty of students testing below the 50th percentile who are not inner city stereotypes. They are poor with working class parents. Homeschoolers in this area may be poor, but they are better educated and they are doing at least as well, if not better, than their local schools. It may be that their local schools should not be the point of comparison.

 

For example, our local high school has am average ACT score of 17. If someone gets a 21, well, that looks good. But the rich district a few cities away has averages of 25 and 26 and a kid bringing home a 21 is a disaster which unleashes the test prep monster.

Sometimes homeschoolers are wrong when they say that homeschooling is better than school, but sometimes they are right. If you know what your local schools are like and you are trying to do as well or better, well, that is good for homeschooling as a whole. Districts vary, cities vary, families have different educational goals. That is why homeschooling is going to be as varied as public school. This argument is not about rigor or perfection in educational outcome. People set the bar at different places for all sorts of different reasons. What may look terrible to you may be better than average for their family or community.

[Happy2BaMom]

I hear what you are saying, MysteryJen, but my view of this whole topic is that it's not about what my opinion is  - e.g. it doesn't matter whether I think someone else's homeschool looks "terrible" or "average" or "great" or whatever.

 

The fact remains that significant numbers of homeschoolers - 30-50% according to a lot of reports (this has been discussed on the board before) - are showing up in public and private educational settings being unable to perform to grade-level expectations. That's disturbing to me, because I want homeschoolers to have credibility, not be used as a "case-in-point" examples of why homeschooled kids should be in school because they perform worse than the average public school student, or as poorly as the most poorly prepared public school student. I believe it weakens the strength of the argument for homeschooling.

 

And I guess I'm personally disappointed that a movement that started with so much leadership demonstration, courage, devotion, and commitment to high standards has become another bastion of mediocrity. But that's the life of movements, I suppose. Part of me will forever be an idealist, and I think I just have to accept that humans are humans, no matter where you go.

 

 

[Orthodox6]

Maybe the larger number of homeschoolers students populating the bulge of a bell curve -- (Call it the mediocrity bulge if one wishes to be harsh.) -- means nothing more than a greatly increased number of homeschoolers in the U.S. as a result of state laws better enabling parents to choose this educational path. Greater sample size from a more diverse population can yield this. The original homeschool "pioneers" were, perhaps, more homogeneous as a group.

[Joanne]

My personal data is collected from an affluent area in a good and recognized school district. Look, I used to be, on the very board, one who defended homeschool outcomes.

 

Exposure to actual info from homeschoolers (hundreds at this point) forced me to change my opinion.

[chiguirre]

The fact remains that significant numbers of homeschoolers - 30-50% according to a lot of reports (this has been discussed on the board before) - are showing up in public and private educational settings being unable to perform to grade-level expectations. That's disturbing to me, because I want homeschoolers to have credibility, not be used as a "case-in-point" examples of why homeschooled kids should be in school because they perform worse than the average public school student, or as poorly as the most poorly prepared public school student. I believe it weakens the strength of the argument for homeschooling.

So, are you arguing that people who have kids with issues shouldn't be allowed to homeschool? That 30-50% includes a lot of square pegs, some with IEPs, some with 504s, some undiagnosed and some that are just quirky. Those are the kids who most benefit from not being forced into a b&m school but their scores will never be stellar. They're not going to be the homeschool poster child. The secret that homeschool critics won't tell you is that the public schools are often relieved to see these kids withdrawn to homeschool because they are difficult to educate and their scores will never be stellar.

[shage]

I am uninterested in either defending or criticizing outcomes for the simple reason that I don't think we know--as an aggregate--what the outcomes are.

 

Many homeschoolers in CA use  charter schools  which require testing.  But when I  have looked at comparison samples it is hard to make sense of the data because so many families are opting out.  (Both homeschooling and brick and mortar families.)

 

Many of the stereotypes of homeschoolers even here on this  thread (upper middle class, intact families) don't ring true in my world.  The charter homeschool programs are used heavily within my district for teens who don't fit into regular school---teen parents, teens with juvenile justice involvement, teens who are homeless.  The kids with solid academic skills tend to skip the high school route altogether and head straight to community college and are thus pulled from the samples.

 

As far as the CA homeschoolers who file as independent private schools, I think we know even less about that population because there are no testing requirements.  My feeling is that they tend to be more at the extremes: more kids with learning disabilities, but also more gifted kids too.

 

I do bristle at some of the comments in this thread which seem to acknowledge, yes my child may not test the best because of LD's but everyone else is not doing an adequate job teaching.  Fundamental attribution bias, much?

 

It's easy to miss what a broad sample really looks like when most of us see a pretty narrow slice in terms of geography.

 

 

[Joanne]

 

 

It's easy to miss what a broad sample really looks like when most of us see a pretty narrow slice in terms of geography.

 

 

 

My local experience echoes was a wider geographic range of professionals have reported over the years on this board.

 

What I do see "across the board" of educational settings that alarms me is casualness and disregard with regard to plagiarism. I think it is a generational and technology driven shift. I saw it when I taught the college success course at a local community college. We had several incidents last year at my small school.

[shage]

My local experience echoes was a wider geographic range of professionals have reported over the years on this board.

 

What I do see "across the board" of educational settings that alarms me is casualness and disregard with regard to plagiarism. I think it is a generational and technology driven shift. I saw it when I taught the college success course at a local community college. We had several incidents last year at my small school.

 

I would agree--the plagiarism problem is rampant and I think stems from a social media culture where sharing (without thought to attribution) is considered a compliment.

 

I also think it is a lack of time spent reading academic journals. Many undergraduates don't encounter academic journal articles first hand until upper division classes, and thus don't understand the purpose. 

 

I do wonder if the solutions will be technological.  And I don't mean programs like TurnItIn which do the scanning and originality scores, but actual imbedding of code in text snippets that would make it possible to track back sources. The easier you make it for people to attribute, the more likely they are to do it.