Non-bianary Gender, Interests and Activities

[Χά�ων]

Would you, as a parent, allow a non-binary gender identity child to join a sport or activity based on interest vs assigned gender?

 

Examples (may not be the best, work with me people)

 

A child who may be biologically female, identifies as neither wants to play lacrosse with boys because the rules allow checking. The child is a very physical player, loves the sport but is struggling to do the differences in rules.

 

A child who identifies as both genders but is leaning more towards female, wants to join boy scouts. Girls scouts where they live does not offer what the child is interested in.

 

Additional considerations that I did not think to include, because really, can't you all read my mind? ;)

 

• This is recreational level, not competitive or travel.
• The child is prepubescent and thus no hormone advantage.
• The child's appearance and name will not clue in anyone to their biological sex and they will "match" their activity.
• The child is non binary and does not identify as either, this is a matter of fit with personality.
• No gender identifying documentation is needed to participate.
• Life long close friendships are not expected. This is not a social outlet. It is an activity based on interest alone.
• There are no locker rooms.
• The activity is independent of schools
• This is not about skill, it is about the activity that is not offered for that gender and the "close" activity is not the same and not a good fit. If the child does not participate in the opposite gender's activity they do not get to participate in that activity. There is no option for a female to play boys rules lacrosse because there is a girls lacrosse. Girls lacrosse is not the same. 

 

 

I picked on lacrosse because of the differences between men's and women's lacrosse. I have nothing personal for or against lacrosse. It was just easy because of the stark contrasts between the two. 

 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would not have a problem with that at all.  But it's not really up to me after that.  It simply isn't usually allowed. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Although interestingly I learned last week that some of the female soccer players on the German team had permission as kids to play on the boy's teams because their skills were much more in line with the boys or there simply wasn't a girl team of a high enough caliber. 

So it does happen sometimes. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

In high school wrestling was for boys and girls.  There were no separate teams.  The girls wrestled the boys.  The classes are based on weight and probably there just weren't enough girls to make a separate team.  I was tempted because I thought it would be cool to wrestle boys.  LOL

 

 

[go_go_gadget]

While I wouldn't have a problem with my child or any other child participating in the ways you've described, some people would. If those parents found out, the feeling of having been deceived would do much harm to the cause of trans or alt-gendered people. The way forward is not through subterfuge.

[SparklyUnicorn]

While I wouldn't have a problem with my child or any other child participating in the ways you've described, some people would. If those parents found out, the feeling of having been deceived would do much harm to the cause of transgendered and tranvestite people. The way forward is not through subterfuge.

 

I didn't think she meant doing it in a secretive way.  I think she meant doing it openly.

[Dmmetler]

I agree with Sparkly. Most sports DD does require a birth certificate be on file, which is going to list that DD is female.

 

I do think that it is often easier to get girls onto boys' teams (I've known female wrestlers and football players) than the other way around. A male on a women's team is seen as an unfair advantage.

[MEmama]

I wouldn't have any issue with it, but at a certain age most sports naturally sort teams out by gender. There may be co-ed opportunities, but girls, for example, probably won't be allowed to play on an all boys hockey or lacrosse team in high school because it's simply not safe. Physically, the genders do develop differently; it's not a matter of equality. There may also be issues with a lack of available separate locker rooms. We've had that issue already in hockey, even on co-ed teams.

 

If she wants to play on a boys team, you'd absolutely have to be upfront about it and clear it with the organization. There could be huge consequences if you didn't (general you, I have no idea if this is a hypothetical question or not), and I can't imagine putting a child in the middle of that mess.

[Χά�ων]

I would not have a problem with that at all.  But it's not really up to me after that.  It simply isn't usually allowed. 

 

 

In this case, pretend the child's appearance will not clue in anyone to their biological sex and use a a name that matches the gender that matches the activity. 

 

Where I live recreational level sports do not require documentation that would show a child's assigned gender. I have no experience with boy scouts. For this, pretend that no documentation that would reveal a child's gender is required to participate.

[SparklyUnicorn]

In this case, pretend the child's appearance will not clue in anyone to their biological sex and use a a name that matches the gender that matches the activity. 

 

Where I live recreational level sports do not require documentation that would show a child's assigned gender. I have no experience with boy scouts. For this, pretend that no documentation that would reveal a child's gender is required to participate.

 

Well, I'd rather be open about it.  Although I can imagine in some cases that it might be tempting not to be open about it.  They will possibly endure a lot of flack from it. 

[go_go_gadget]

I didn't think she meant doing it in a secretive way.  I think she meant doing it openly.

 

Maybe you're right. The wording in the poll was ''Stick to the rules,'' so I thought the rules being proposed to be broken were those of the activities themselves. Perhaps the OP just meant the societal assumptions regarding the activities.

[MEmama]

In this case, pretend the child's appearance will not clue in anyone to their biological sex and use a a name that matches the gender that matches the activity.

 

Where I live recreational level sports do not require documentation that would show a child's assigned gender. I have no experience with boy scouts. For this, pretend that no documentation that would reveal a child's gender is required to participate.

In that case it sounds intentionally deceptive. Why hide gender?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah I don't agree with hiding it. 

 

I can imagine the desire to hide it though. 

[Χά�ων]

I really should have posted more in the first post. I will edit it.

 

This is recreational level, not competitive or travel.

The child is prepubescent and thus no hormone advantage.

The child is non binary and does not identify as either, this is a matter of fit with personality.

No gender identifying documentation is needed to participate.

 

I picked on lacrosse because of the differences between men's and women's lacrosse. I have nothing personal for or against lacrosse. It was just easy. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I really should have posted more in the first post. I will edit it.

 

This is recreational level, not competitive or travel.

The child is prepubescent and thus no hormone advantage.

The child is non binary and does not identify as either, this is a matter of fit with personality.

No gender identifying documentation is needed to participate.

 

I picked on lacrosse because of the differences between men's and women's lacrosse. I have nothing personal for or against lacrosse. It was just easy. 

 

Well, I don't see the big deal at all in this case, but I still would not want to be deceptive about it.  I'd at least want the coach or powers that be to know. 

[Onceuponatime]

The question I would have is how would the child handle locker rooms and other similar situations? Would the child be in any physical danger if their biological gender was discovered?

[Χά�ων]

In that case it sounds intentionally deceptive. Why hide gender?

I am going to counter with. Why does gender have to be displayed front and center? Why does gender hold greater weight than interests in our society? 

[Χά�ων]

The question I would have is how would the child handle locker rooms and other similar situations? Would the child be in any physical danger if their biological gender was discovered?

There are locker rooms in lacrosse? Seriously, I had no idea. My son has played lacrosse, but he and all the kids put on their gear on the side of the field over their clothes. Might be a regional difference. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

There are locker rooms in lacrosse? Seriously, I had no idea. My son has played lacrosse, but he and all the kids put on their gear on the side of the field over their clothes. Might be a regional difference. 

 

Yeah this would make a difference in terms of whether or not it might ever come up.   When one of mine played soccer, they showed up in their clothing and went home and changed at home.  There were no locker rooms. 

[snowbeltmom]

I am going to counter with. Why does gender have to be displayed front and center? Why does gender hold greater weight than interests in our society? 

 

I don't think gender does hold greater weight than interests in our society. 

 

I played on my school's football team because there was not a team available for girls.  However, most sports separate girls and boys because as a general rule, boys are simply stronger athletically than girls.  There are exceptions to these rules, and in some of those exceptions, the girls do play on the boys' team because they are too good for the girls' team.

 

[Χά�ων]

I don't think gender does hold greater weight than interests in our society. 

 

I played on my school's football team because there was not a team available for girls.  However, most sports separate girls and boys because as a general rule, boys are simply stronger athletically than girls.  There are exceptions to these rules, and in some of those exceptions, the girls do play on the boys' team because they are too good for the girls' team.

 

Assume the child has no extraordinary talent. Right smack in the middle of the pack skill wise. 

 

Not a school team. -Wait, are there places where school sports start before middle school? 

 

Actually talent is irrelevant. The sport offered for the assigned gender is not the same sport as the one the child wants to play. If the child plays by assigned gender then the child is not playing the same sport. The rules and play are different.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

. -Wait, are there places where school sports start before middle school? 

 

Yes they do here.  Some as early as K.  No joke..

[Χά�ων]

Yes they do here.  Some as early as K.  No joke..

:huh:  Wow. Insane. 

[snowbeltmom]

Assume the child has no extraordinary talent. Right smack in the middle of the pack skill wise. 

 

Not a school team. -Wait, are there places where school sports start before middle school? 

 

Not where we live now, but where I grew up, there are neighborhood elementary schools and these schools have football and basketball (although basketball does have separate leagues for boys and girls) teams.  The elementary schools play against each other. 

 

[Χά�ων]

Not where we live now, but where I grew up, there are neighborhood elementary schools and these schools have football and basketball (although basketball does have separate leagues for boys and girls) teams.  The elementary schools play against each other. 

 

The things I am learning. 

[Onceuponatime]

There are locker rooms in lacrosse? Seriously, I had no idea. My son has played lacrosse, but he and all the kids put on their gear on the side of the field over their clothes. Might be a regional difference.

I was not thinking specifically of lacrosse but the general question of sports and Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts swim, they camp out, etc.

[Audrey]

In this case, pretend the child's appearance will not clue in anyone to their biological sex and use a a name that matches the gender that matches the activity. 

 

Where I live recreational level sports do not require documentation that would show a child's assigned gender. I have no experience with boy scouts. For this, pretend that no documentation that would reveal a child's gender is required to participate.

 

To me that sounds a bit like the parent and child are lying by omission if they know that the team/group is for one sex and they do not disclose that about themselves.  While I dislike organizations that exclude based on sex/gender, I do not think that the appropriate or most effective way to challenge that is to sneak into them.   I think that it only serves to make organizations dig their heels in deeper if people try to use subterfuge to get around their rules.  I think challenging their exclusionary rules head on and openly is the ethical way to go.  I think that if enough people would do that, there would be more organizations who would reconsider their stances and then start to remove those barriers. 

[T'smom]

I would ask for an exception to be made, but I would not be deceptive about it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I was not thinking specifically of lacrosse but the general question of sports and Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts swim, they camp out, etc.

 

Well and so do girl scouts.  So it's not like there is nothing for girls.

 

Plus there is stuff like 4H which is for everyone.

[Rebel Yell]

I didn't think she meant doing it in a secretive way.  I think she meant doing it openly.

 

if the name and appearance of the child do not give away their gender, it may not be 'secretive' but it sure isn't 'open.'

[Starr]

Teaching a child to be secretive isn't helpful in my opinion. I would find an activity where boys and girls participate together.

[SKL]

Call me old-fashioned, but I think even a transgender kid needs to pick one and stick with it.  If gender identity is a serious issue, it doesn't change daily.  You can't have it both ways.

 

There are lots of co-ed options where I am, and it would be nice if that were the case everywhere.  If a specific sport doesn't have exactly what a kid is looking for, oh well, that's life.  Participating in a "group" activity is never going to be very "individualized."  Again, you can't have it both ways.

 

But if you feel there is a demand for something that doesn't exist, maybe it would be a good idea to start something new in your community.

[Χά�ων]

To me that sounds a bit like the parent and child are lying by omission if they know that the team/group is for one sex and they do not disclose that about themselves.  While I dislike organizations that exclude based on sex/gender, I do not think that the appropriate or most effective way to challenge that is to sneak into them.   I think that it only serves to make organizations dig their heels in deeper if people try to use subterfuge to get around their rules.  I think challenging their exclusionary rules head on and openly is the ethical way to go.  I think that if enough people would do that, there would be more organizations who would reconsider their stances and then start to remove those barriers. 

In my experience trying to deal with a large organizations in another area, they ignore as much as possible, as long as possible. Change comes through a lawsuit or lots of media attention. Not everyone has the resources to try and get the media to take notice of something, or the desire the file a lawsuit to bring about change. Spending years and a significant amount of time and money to inspire change for something, and not even being able to benefit from all that work is a luxury not everyone can afford. 

[Χά�ων]

Call me old-fashioned, but I think even a transgender kid needs to pick one and stick with it.  If gender identity is a serious issue, it doesn't change daily.  You can't have it both ways.

 

I did not say transgender. I said non-binary. :)  There is a difference. http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Non-binary

 

 

A conversation about transgender in activities is important, but not my goal of this conversation. 

[MEmama]

What are you looking for? I mean, even if the sport isn't gender categorized today, it likely will be in a few years as your child grows up. So then a clear distinction will have to be made, and the potential for former teammates feeling duped will be enormous. Why put anyone through that?

 

Also, how will you refer to your chid at practices and games? To other parents? To the teammates? Are you hiding or open?

 

If gender doesn't matter now because there aren't rules, then no one should care and it's likely not to be the first or only case the sport has encountered. But if you are actively hiding their identity, that understandably won't sit well and seems to serve no purpose.

[Χά�ων]

if the name and appearance of the child do not give away their gender, it may not be 'secretive' but it sure isn't 'open.'

Is it ever really open? Gender expression often matches biological sex, but that is not always the case. In young kids they are pretty much indeterminable based on facial features alone. People look to clues such as hair and clothing to determine gender and assume sex matches. 

 

The only way anyone is really open about gender is if someone wears a name tag and I have yet to see that. 

[hornblower]

Scouting is co-ed in Canada so that doesn't arise.

 

we have girl guides and that is not so it's interesting to consider if a gender assigned boy wanted to join. I think it would be fine, esp if the child is non binary but I'm not sure what the org would make of it.

 

For hockey and soccer, there have been a number of instances of girls playing on the boy's teams, usually becasue they're too good for the girl's teams and I think increasingly there are more co-ed recreational and developmental teams and they don't segregate until competitive level.

 

With your situation, I have no prob with it but my initial reaction is that ideally it should be done openly, at least wrt coaches and organizers. Otoh, I can see just wanting to let the kid play and not have to make a huge deal out of it....

[SKL]

IMO being willing to fake gender for the purpose of playing sport as one wishes is an example of parents getting way too serious about kids' sports.

[Onceuponatime]

Well and so do girl scouts. So it's not like there is nothing for girls.

 

Plus there is stuff like 4H which is for everyone.

I think there is a misunderstanding, I was referring to my original question of locker room type situations when one is secretly in a group of the opposite biological gender. I was not meaning to imply that girls did not also have these opportunities. 😊

[Χά�ων]

What are you looking for? I mean, even if the sport isn't gender categorized today, it likely will be in a few years as your child grows up. So then a clear distinction will have to be made, and the potential for former teammates feeling duped will be enormous. Why put anyone through that?

 

Also, how will you refer to your chid at practices and games? To other parents? To the teammates? Are you hiding or open?

 

If gender doesn't matter now because there aren't rules, then no one should care and it's likely not to be the first or only case the sport has encountered. But if you are actively hiding their identity, that understandably won't sit well and seems to serve no purpose.

This is not about my child. I just want to have the conversation about non binary kids.

 

But I usually refer to my child by his name at practice. I am thinking about everything he has ever (sports and non sports) done to answer your questions. I cannot think of any time it has ever come up in conversation if my kids sex has matched his gender or gender expression. I have had other conversations, but usually, not about anything like that. Granted, he is 11, that could change with time.

[Χά�ων]

IMO being willing to fake gender for the purpose of playing sport as one wishes is an example of parents getting way too serious about kids' sports.

I am sorry, maybe I miss understood you, are you saying that non binary or gender fluid gender identities do not exist and that it is just another way for parents to give their child an advantage?  Are you aware that I am referring to a prepubescent child and that often there are not noticeable differences in ability in this age group?

 

I picked this age group to avoid people screaming "testosterone advantage!"

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think there is a misunderstanding, I was referring to my original question of locker room type situations when one is secretly in a group of the opposite biological gender. I was not meaning to imply that girls did not also have these opportunities. 😊

 

Oh no I didn't take it any other way.   Was just adding to it I guess.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Call me old-fashioned, but I think even a transgender kid needs to pick one and stick with it.  If gender identity is a serious issue, it doesn't change daily.  You can't have it both ways.

 

 

I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion.  A truly transgendered person has no desire to "have it both ways". 

[regentrude]

I have absolutely no issue with a (biological) girl participating in a boy's activity and vice versa, but I would be concerned about doing this secretly . I would be worried about the impact on my child, should the team mates/parents discover that the child's biological gender is different. Even if you claim no locker rooms etc, I could imagine it difficult to hide biological gender. The teasing and bullying would be merciless, and I would want to spare my child this - unless the child is able to be open about their fluid gender identity.

 

Can you imagine how utterly mortifying it would be if a boy scout had his first period during a camp-out???

And I can only imagine the parent's reaction if they found out one of their daughter's fellow girl scouts was biologically a boy and was participating secretly... there will be nasty accusations

 

ETA:  would rather go through channels to lobby for including children of both genders in the activity.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I have an issue with the idea of being deceptive.

 

Otherwise, I don't have an issue with a child wanting to be in an opposite gender team/group because of the difference in rules/activities.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I think my concern would be that it is a "secret."  To you and your kid.  That's a heavy burden.  Not the same thing at all, but when I was a kid, my parents would lie about my age so I could get the reduced price kids buffet.  It caused me a lot of anxiety and made me feel dishonest.  I would try and calculate what my birth year would be because I was afraid they would ask.   I didn't enjoy the experience because I was afraid of getting found out.  And it was dishonest.  As an adult and a parent, I look back and think I would not do that.  It's not fair to the kid.

 

ymmv

[Butter]

Pre-pubescent kids may still have an advantage.  My son does swim team.  The events are separated by sex from the earliest age (5).  When you look at the results, the boys *from the start* average faster than the girls.  Obviously there are some boys who are slower and some girls that are faster, but on average, the boys are a little bit faster.  Now, that's a sport that is available for boys and girls both, but it does provide an example of there being an advantage to be a boy.

 

A lot of teams will make exceptions and allow girls on boys teams (I've never encountered a boy who wanted to play on a girls' team).  A girl my age wrestled in high school.  They made an exception for her.  Now a lot of high school wrestling teams are automatically co-ed.  My friend's daughter (middle schooler) was *asked by the coach* to play on their school's football team.  She's very sporty.  It's unusual for a girl to be on a football team, but it happens.

 

So I'd ask for an exception and if they said no, so be it.

[SKL]

I am sorry, maybe I miss understood you, are you saying that non binary or gender fluid gender identities do not exist and that it is just another way for parents to give their child an advantage?  Are you aware that I am referring to a prepubescent child and that often there are not noticeable differences in ability in this age group?

 

I picked this age group to avoid people screaming "testosterone advantage!"

 

No, I am saying why are people going beyond "has a penis, sign up for boys' sports."  You said we aren't talking about a transgender kid, so why would it be more complicated than that?  It's kid sports.

 

Unless the kid actually has ambiguous physical sex characteristics, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.

 

[AndyJoy]

:huh:  Wow. Insane. 

 

Around here (and in CA when I was a child) they have basketball starting in 3rd grade or so at the schools.  However, it is overseen by the city recreation department and just administered in the schools.  It makes a lot of sense, because the rec center doesn't have the space to host games for that many kids.  The kids get to be on a team with their classmates and it is easier for parents to coordinate since they are obviously already used to the location and likely already know some teammates.  When my homeschooled son is old enough, he could play at our zoned elementary through dual enrollment.

 

 

[Χά�ων]

No, I am saying why are people going beyond "has a penis, sign up for boys' sports." You said we aren't talking about a transgender kid, so why would it be more complicated than that? It's kid sports.

 

Unless the kid actually has ambiguous physical sex characteristics, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.

 

By chance, did you read the link I posted? Gender goes beyond male or female.