America lost too many of its bright young people this week

[Farrar]

Unstable people often latch onto fringe or extremist movements and adopt the most radical form of their ideologies as their own. I suspect that's the case with his "anti-theism."

[Laurie4b]

Oh goody.

 

Assuming that it might need pointing out here - one can believe the above without ever having any desire to shoot anyone of any faith. 

 

 

Yes, I agree. Just because he self-identifies as anti-theist doesn't mean that his violence represents that movement any more than ISIS represents Islam.

[albeto.]

 I think it's likely the more deadly mix of unbalanced people, influenced by bias and hate, who have guns and find excuses to use them. Women, blacks, Latinos, Muslims, and others are all the victims of this violent mix way too often.

 

I think you're probably right on the money. I'd only throw in one other component, and that is one of believing in vengeance/revenge as a morally sound system of justice. Take this out of the equation, and much changes.

[Tsuga]

 

 

. I'd only throw in one other component, and that is one of believing in vengeance/revenge as a morally sound system of justice.

 

That's so easy to justify once you're unbalanced, though. All you have to believe is that the government is really against the good people and you can cook the anecdotal "data" however you want to justify your belief that at this point, it's vigilante justice or no justice.

 

 

[Pawz4me]

Of course, he's mentally ill.  He's a white guy with a gun who killed three people.  They always are mentally ill when that happens.  Problem is, people who are Muslim or brown and do the same thing are never mentally ill.  Muslims are always terrorists and their religion is always the cause of everything bad they do.  Brown and black people are always guilty too.

Still waiting for the NRA to say that if they had all been armed this never would have happened....but they never say that when a Muslim person is killed.  They don't want more Muslim-Americans with guns.... just as they don't want more black people with guns.

 

Imagine if it had been the other way around.  Would there even be any discussion of motive or mental illness?

 

 

Umsami, please know I don't mean to put you on the spot about this.  If I made a list of the members here who I respect the most, your name would be at or near the top.  And I know this whole subject matter is emotional for you (and for many others).  I've considered over and over whether I should even post this.  But it's been nagging at me ever since these threads came up yesterday, and I'm genuinely curious.

 

In post #45 in this thread you said:  "The perp was black and Muslim…if he was white and non-Muslim, Islam would not come up.  He would have been a poor mentally deranged person.  Thing is…he's still a poor mentally troubled person who killed innocent people.  Religion really has nothing to do with it . . "

 

Note that 18 members agreed with that post, although of course they could have been agreeing with various aspects of it.  But there was quite a lot of agreement in that thread that the perp was likely mentally ill, that anyone who would kill people like that has to be mentally ill.  Post #5, and the likes it received, are one example.

 

I'm really curious how you think the Chapel Hill incident is different?

 

Why do the non-Muslim perpetrator's (anti) religious beliefs matter in the Chapel Hill case, but the Muslim perpetrator's beliefs didn't matter in the Moore case?

 

It seems it was relatively easy for you to label the perp in the Moore beheading as mentally ill, but in the Chapel Hill incident you address the possibility of mental illness being a factor with sarcasm and derision?

 

 

It seems to me that the situation in Chapel Hill pretty much HAS occurred the other way around (the Moore incident), and there HAS been discussion of mental illness.  And IIRC that discussion didn't only happen here, but fairly widely in the media.

 

[Danestress]

I find it troubling that people really believe they can identify mental illness by a Facebook page or by the facts of a crime. I guess I think it is possible to be mentally ill and also hateful. Being mentally ill does not exonerate someone from culpability for crimes. It's actually pretty hard to meet the standard. In NC a defendant has to prove that he either did not understand what he was doing (for example, he was so delusional he thought he was shooting birds, not people), or that if he did understand, he did not know his actions were wrong. You can have a life long, incapacitating mental illness and not be able to meet that burden of proof.

 

I guess I think it is possible that this man was angry, mentally ill, full of hate, and a flat out bigot, all at once. Over time, more information will emerge. I don't understand why people are threatened by discussing various possibilities. He will have a right to try to establish an insanity defense. The prosecutors will obviously take a different position. I suspect his mental state will not establish an absolute defense, but maybe it will give insight into how he could do such a thing.

 

Anti-Muslim prejudice is a serious problem and makes people scared and vulnerable. Mental illness is also a huge problem. We can talk about both, and I suspect both were factors here.

[Laurie4b]

I find it troubling that people really believe they can identify mental illness by a Facebook page

 

Just FYI, I was the one who mentioned that I didn't see signs of mental illness on his FB. I didn't say that meant he wasn't mentally ill.  I said there were no signs of mental illness on his FB page.

 

On the other hand, you actually often can id mental illness from a FB page. "Rants" for instance, in which there are delusional thought patterns are embedded often id mental illness quite readily and within a certain range of possibilities. And for killing to be a direct result of mental illness, that would likely be what you'd find instead of cat videos and rational commentary.

 

I've worked with mentally ill people professionally and their writing can be rather obvious.

[Danestress]

 

 

On the other hand, you actually often can id mental illness from a FB page. "Rants" for instance, in which there are delusional thought patterns are embedded often id mental illness quite readily and within a certain range of possibilities.

 

Well true enough, especial if the 'range of possibilities' also includes faking for whatever reason. But I don't think you can possibly rule out mental illness based on Facebook, which seems more the point here. And even if you can pretty much determine that there is mental health issue, that is a long long way from establishing a legal defense.

 

I didn't mean to be contrary, though, or to challenge you particularly. I think a lot of people get upset when mental health issues come up in the afterthought of a hideous crime, because people are afraid the accused will be excused because of that. So I was mostly trying to say that I think it is a good and useful thing to talk about mental health issues and also to talk about how hate and bias towards Muslims endangers their safety.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Of course, he's mentally ill.  He's a white guy with a gun who killed three people.  They always are mentally ill when that happens.  Problem is, people who are Muslim or brown and do the same thing are never mentally ill.  Muslims are always terrorists and their religion is always the cause of everything bad they do.  Brown and black people are always guilty too.

Still waiting for the NRA to say that if they had all been armed this never would have happened....but they never say that when a Muslim person is killed.  They don't want more Muslim-Americans with guns.... just as they don't want more black people with guns.

 

Imagine if it had been the other way around.  Would there even be any discussion of motive or mental illness?

 

He was a gun nut.  He used his guns to intimidate and then he used them to kill three kids.  He did not like his Muslim neighbors.  So he executed them....all three of them. He did not kill any of the other neighbors he may or may not have had issues with.  He did not shoot each one of them in the head.  He killed the Muslim kids.  It wasn't over a parking spot.  Did you know that Deah had just gotten off a bus? How does that affect a parking space?   Here's a piece written by Yusor's best friend.  They were friends since third grade.  http://fusion.net/story/47569/chapel-hill-shooting-my-best-friend-was-killed-and-i-dont-know-why/

 

"I know that he’s an aggressive man. That’s not the first we’ve heard from him. Hicks was their neighbor.

In October or November, we went to dinner at Yusor and Deah’s house. Right after we left, Yusor heard a knock at the door and it was Hicks. She told us he was angry and said we were noisy and there were two extra cars in the neighborhood. We used visitor parking but he was still mad. He said we woke up his wife. It wasn’t that dark yet. It wasn’t late. And it wasn’t that loud. We were playing a board game called Risk. I mean, I know I was mad because they were beating me at the game, but that was it. While he was at the door talking to Yusor, he was holding a rifle, she told me later. He didn’t point it at anyone, but he still had it. Yusor called to check on us after we left, to make sure he hadn’t approached us. We thought that was so weird—our neighbors don’t come to the door with guns! So when I heard the news it was shocking, but it wasn’t a surprise that it was the neighbor.

When I heard the news report and drove down there from Raleigh, I hoped it wasn’t anyone I knew. But I saw the apartment on the news and it was his apartment. If it wasn’t a hate crime, what was it? If you have a problem with your neighbors, you write a letter; you don’t shoot people. I think they were targeted because they were different. He was always so annoyed with them for little things. They are talking about a parking dispute online—that’s definitely not true. There’s plenty of space, and Deah had just gotten off the bus. I wonder if he just thought Deah was some white guy before his wife moved in."

 

I think you need to own what you posted previously.

​ "The perp was black and Muslim…if he was white and non-Muslim, Islam would not come up.  He would have been a poor mentally deranged person.  Thing is…he's still a poor mentally troubled person who killed innocent people.  Religion really has nothing to do with it, just as Charles Manson viscously murdering Sharon Tate and others had nothing to do with Christianity (even though he thought he was Jesus.)"

 

You are just as biased as those you are accusing of bias. 

 

 

[Mommy22alyns]

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/of-double-standards-and-triple-homicides-media-malpractice-and-the-north-carolina-murders/

[Laurie4b]

I think you need to own what you posted previously.

​ "The perp was black and Muslim…if he was white and non-Muslim, Islam would not come up.  He would have been a poor mentally deranged person.  Thing is…he's still a poor mentally troubled person who killed innocent people.  Religion really has nothing to do with it, just as Charles Manson viscously murdering Sharon Tate and others had nothing to do with Christianity (even though he thought he was Jesus.)"

 

You are just as biased as those you are accusing of bias. 

 

 

I don't follow your reasoning at all. I re-read both what you posted and Umsami's post that you quoted and don't follow. She said in the first instance that if a perpetrator is black and Muslim, both will be mentioned, rather than mental illness. She said in this case that because it was a white man, mental illness would be the first thing trotted out. I see no conflict between the two statements. In this recent case, she's speaking about the religion of the victims because she has personal knowledge through a phone call with friends of the victims that that was the case because of their prior interactions with this man. There is no definitive evidence of mental illness at play here yet. So I'm not following your logic.

 

As for the last sentence:I think the context calls for compassion, not accusations. This isn't simply a cognitive argument . When someone has had the FBI come to their place of worship and warn them of credible threats such that they feel a need to change their behavior, and when they have spent a long time on the phone with a friend who is personally grieving the loss of the friends who were executed, it doesn't seem appropriate time to throw the term "biased" at them (even if I could follow the logic.)

 

[Jen in NY]

Beautiful tribute to Yusor Abu-Salha on NPR this morning, most of it in her own voice.

 

http://www.npr.org/2015/02/13/385846609/chapel-hill-shooting-victims-were-radiant-teacher-says

 

 

[umsami]

 

 

I think you need to own what you posted previously.

​ "The perp was black and Muslim…if he was white and non-Muslim, Islam would not come up.  He would have been a poor mentally deranged person.  Thing is…he's still a poor mentally troubled person who killed innocent people.  Religion really has nothing to do with it, just as Charles Manson viscously murdering Sharon Tate and others had nothing to do with Christianity (even though he thought he was Jesus.)"

 

You are just as biased as those you are accusing of bias. 

 

 

Well, LaurieB explained it for me, but all am I pointing out is that if somebody murders somebody and the murderer is a Muslim...it's always viewed as religiously motivated.  It doesn't matter if the person was mentally ill, that is never taken into account.

 

The same things happens with black people who are mentally ill and commit crimes (or even no crimes at all).  Heck, their mental illness is never even "allowed", they are often killed by the police.  

 

I'm not just the only one who has noticed this, BTW.   Just like at the Aurora shooter.  White and alive.  

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/media-black-victims_n_5673291.html

 

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/28024-connecting-police-violence-against-people-of-color-and-people-with-mental-illness#

 

 

As for the original case, the FBI is investigating the killing now.  http://www.newsobserver.com/welcome_page/?shf=/2015/02/12/4550644_hundreds-gather-at-funeral-for.html

 

And for the previous poster who doubted that there is anti-Muslim views expressed among politicians, just read this today that goes over some of the views of past Presidential candidates like Cain and Huckabee....but not limited to them.   http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/02/anti-islam/385463/

 

"There’s a pattern here. In 2011, Huckabee said Christians shouldn’t rent space in their churches to Muslims because “Muslim group†say “that Jesus Christ and all the people that follow him are a bunch of infidels who should be essentially obliterated.†Huckabee wasn’t talking about al-Qaeda. He accused ordinary American Muslims, who might need space to pray, of wanting to see Christians “obliterated.†Then, in 2013, he called Islam “a religion that promotes the most murderous mayhem on the planet in their so-called holiest days.†Not al-Qaeda or jihadists or terrorists, but Islam itself. According to Huckabee, in other words, Muslims want Christians “obliterated†and Islam promotes murder. He went on to say that “the Muslims will go to the mosque, and they will have their day of prayer, and they come out of there like uncorked animals—throwing rocks and burning cars.â€

 

Uncorked animals. Not very subtle. Yet if there’s a single prominent conservative who has said Huckabee’s anti-Muslim slurs disqualify him as a presidential candidate, I haven’t come across them."

 

For all of those who expressed some sympathy, thanks.  It's been a very tough few days.  Many I know were at the funeral yesterday.  If I'm not around as much on these boards or even back on this thread, I apologize.  If I offended, I apologize.  Things are very very tough right now.  Thanks for the kindness to those who were kind.  Peace.

 

​I just found out that there was a fire at an Islamic school in Houston.  It may just be a parking dispute, right? I actually hope it is just an electrical issue and not arson, because as somebody who had their mosque firebombed...it is not a comfortable feeling...and that uneasiness stays with you.  (And no, our mosque did not sustain a lot of damage, because luckily our bomber was incompetent.  We had a lot of support from the community, including the Pentecostal church across the street who has always been a good neighbor.  Eventually, he was caught...but it took I want to say two years to find out who did it.  Those were a tough two years, and the knowledge that somebody did that, doesn't leave me...even though I'm now in a different community.)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

Well, LaurieB explained it for me, but all am I pointing out is that if somebody murders somebody and the murderer is a Muslim...it's always viewed as religiously motivated.  It doesn't matter if the person was mentally ill, that is never taken into account.

 

The same things happens with black people who are mentally ill and commit crimes (or even no crimes at all).  Heck, their mental illness is never even "allowed", they are often killed by the police.  

 

I'm not just the only one who has noticed this, BTW.   Just like at the Aurora shooter.  White and alive.  

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/media-black-victims_n_5673291.html

 

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/28024-connecting-police-violence-against-people-of-color-and-people-with-mental-illness#

 

 

As for the original case, the FBI is investigating the killing now.  http://www.newsobserver.com/welcome_page/?shf=/2015/02/12/4550644_hundreds-gather-at-funeral-for.html

 

And for the previous poster who doubted that there is anti-Muslim views expressed among politicians, just read this today that goes over some of the views of past Presidential candidates like Cain and Huckabee....but not limited to them.   http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/02/anti-islam/385463/

 

"There’s a pattern here. In 2011, Huckabee said Christians shouldn’t rent space in their churches to Muslims because “Muslim group†say “that Jesus Christ and all the people that follow him are a bunch of infidels who should be essentially obliterated.†Huckabee wasn’t talking about al-Qaeda. He accused ordinary American Muslims, who might need space to pray, of wanting to see Christians “obliterated.†Then, in 2013, he called Islam “a religion that promotes the most murderous mayhem on the planet in their so-called holiest days.†Not al-Qaeda or jihadists or terrorists, but Islam itself. According to Huckabee, in other words, Muslims want Christians “obliterated†and Islam promotes murder. He went on to say that “the Muslims will go to the mosque, and they will have their day of prayer, and they come out of there like uncorked animals—throwing rocks and burning cars.â€

 

Uncorked animals. Not very subtle. Yet if there’s a single prominent conservative who has said Huckabee’s anti-Muslim slurs disqualify him as a presidential candidate, I haven’t come across them."

 

For all of those who expressed some sympathy, thanks.  It's been a very tough few days.  Many I know were at the funeral yesterday.  If I'm not around as much on these boards or even back on this thread, I apologize.  If I offended, I apologize.  Things are very very tough right now.  Thanks for the kindness to those who were kind.  Peace.

 

Except when you pointed out the bias against Muslims what you said was "he's still a poor mentally troubled person who killed innocent people."  However, in this case although there has been no real evidence that this attack was motivated due to religion or race (and no, third hand information from a friend of a friend isn't evidence) you dismiss the claim that the perpetrator was a "poor mentally troubled person."  You are consistent at least as in the past you have been willing to excuse actual terrorism perpetrated by Muslims in a desperate effort to blame someone else (usually Israel).

[Farrar]

Except when you pointed out the bias against Muslims what you said was "he's still a poor mentally troubled person who killed innocent people."  However, in this case although there has been no real evidence that this attack was motivated due to religion or race (and no, third hand information from a friend of a friend isn't evidence) you dismiss the claim that the perpetrator was a "poor mentally troubled person."  You are consistent at least as in the past you have been willing to excuse actual terrorism perpetrated by Muslims in a desperate effort to blame someone else (usually Israel).

 

But there has been plenty of evidence that he called them names and threatened them using language that indicated he was prejudiced against Muslims. Many of their friends have testified to it - including that they were there and heard him say such things - one of the friends was quoted on NPR saying he came and threatened them while she was over for dinner not long ago. And those quotes pulled from his FB page, while not specific only to Muslims indicate that he had biases against religious people and these were people who wore their religion for all to see. So I think there's plenty of evidence that those may have been motivating him.

 

On the other hand, the dispute over the parking space and the fact that he was possibly unbalanced are clearly factors too. I guess I don't see why it can't be all of those things. He was likely a mentally troubled man who latched onto a hatred of Muslims and others and snapped over something trivial.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

But there has been plenty of evidence that he called them names and threatened them using language that indicated he was prejudiced against Muslims. Many of their friends have testified to it - including that they were there and heard him say such things - one of the friends was quoted on NPR saying he came and threatened them while she was over for dinner not long ago. And those quotes pulled from his FB page, while not specific only to Muslims indicate that he had biases against religious people and these were people who wore their religion for all to see. So I think there's plenty of evidence that those may have been motivating him.

 

On the other hand, the dispute over the parking space and the fact that he was possibly unbalanced are clearly factors too. I guess I don't see why it can't be all of those things. He was likely a mentally troubled man who latched onto a hatred of Muslims and others and snapped over something trivial.

 

Agreed.  However, umsami doesn't accept that the Muslim perpetrator could be anything more than a "poor mentally troubled person."

[Farrar]

Agreed.  However, umsami doesn't accept that the Muslim perpetrator could be anything more than a "poor mentally troubled person."

 

I see what you're saying. But I think it's really that if a Muslim is the mentally troubled person, then the media emphasizes his religion over the mentally troubled part. If it's someone who is not Muslim, they emphasize the mentally troubled part over the hatred or motive. In the first case, it serves to increase prejudice against Muslims. In the second case, it serves to excuse the role that anti-Islamic sentiment has in our society. Both of those are offensive to Muslims.

 

Look, I feel like I sort of "know" Umsami from the boards, as do most of us. I think she sees that all this stuff is nuanced. She's clearly a person of nuance. But this feels like it's something that hit her personally and in the midst of that a number of people are trying to catch her in some sort of conflicting stance. I think it makes sense to have a different stance about these cases - because I think what she's trying to bring out is not so much the nuance of those individuals - who almost undoubtedly are a mix of hatred and insanity - but how these things are seen and discussed by the public and how they effect Muslims who actually live here.

 

Forgive me, Umsami, if I assume too much.

[BigMamaBird]

I see what you're saying. But I think it's really that if a Muslim is the mentally troubled person, then the media emphasizes his religion over the mentally troubled part. If it's someone who is not Muslim, they emphasize the mentally troubled part over the hatred or motive. In the first case, it serves to increase prejudice against Muslims. In the second case, it serves to excuse the role that anti-Islamic sentiment has in our society. Both of those are offensive to Muslims.

 

Look, I feel like I sort of "know" Umsami from the boards, as do most of us. I think she sees that all this stuff is nuanced. She's clearly a person of nuance. But this feels like it's something that hit her personally and in the midst of that a number of people are trying to catch her in some sort of conflicting stance. I think it makes sense to have a different stance about these cases - because I think what she's trying to bring out is not so much the nuance of those individuals - who almost undoubtedly are a mix of hatred and insanity - but how these things are seen and discussed by the public and how they effect Muslims who actually live here.

 

Forgive me, Umsami, if I assume too much.

 

I agree with you about emphasizing the religion aspect, in the case of Islams, demonizing Muslims.  But I have to confess, I felt a wave of relief when I heard this guy was a very vocal Atheist and not some stripe of Christian.  If he had been a conservative Christian who "clung to his guns and religion" all we'd be hearing about would be how wretched all Christians are and how we're still perpetrating the Crusades to this day.  It seems to be a narrative that the media likes to use and happens to all religions.

[Pawz4me]

I see what you're saying. But I think it's really that if a Muslim is the mentally troubled person, then the media emphasizes his religion over the mentally troubled part. If it's someone who is not Muslim, they emphasize the mentally troubled part over the hatred or motive. In the first case, it serves to increase prejudice against Muslims. In the second case, it serves to excuse the role that anti-Islamic sentiment has in our society. Both of those are offensive to Muslims.

 

Look, I feel like I sort of "know" Umsami from the boards, as do most of us. I think she sees that all this stuff is nuanced. She's clearly a person of nuance. But this feels like it's something that hit her personally and in the midst of that a number of people are trying to catch her in some sort of conflicting stance. I think it makes sense to have a different stance about these cases - because I think what she's trying to bring out is not so much the nuance of those individuals - who almost undoubtedly are a mix of hatred and insanity - but how these things are seen and discussed by the public and how they effect Muslims who actually live here.

 

Forgive me, Umsami, if I assume too much.

 

FWIW, that's not what I was trying to do.  Not at all.  And I tried to make that clear in my post.

 

I really, truly would like to know what's different about the two incidents.  I'm not trying to "catch her" in anything.

 

But while I'd like to understand her thinking, I also don't want her to feel pressured to answer.  This is a message board where we all post voluntarily, not a witness stand where we're required to answer everything asked.  I don't believe in badgering people.  I don't like to be badgered.  Do unto others.

 

[mom31257]

There are so many tragedies, and I'm very sorry for the families and loved ones of all involved. After losing 2 people I love in the last year, I realize more and more how precious this life is. One was lost to sickness, one was lost to suicide. None of us know how long we will be here, no matter what the reason we leave this earth. We should use every moment to love those around us and appreciate all their differences. 

 

Unfortunately there will always be human beings who do such horrible things, religious and non-religious. There always has been. We can't fix everyone, but we can try to make the lives of those with whom we come in contact much better. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Serenade]

  The police, according to the article, have NOT determined whether or not  it was related to their faith.  I would quote the sentences in the article but I don't think I'm supposed to do that... 

 

I live very close to this area, and this is what I'm reading, too, that it was essentially a parking dispute.  Apparently the dude was very territorial over his parking spot and had called the towing company one too many times, so that they were told to not respond to him any more.  What I can't seem to find out from my reading is, if people at the complex (people in general, not necessarily the ones murdered) were always parking in his designated spot, and if that is what caused him to flip.  Apparently each housing unit was allocated only one specific spot.

[Serenade]

Here is a local article detailing the parking situation:

 

A couple of relevant quotes from the article:

 

"He didn’t like people parking in his space, and he was really, really adamant," Lafreniere said. "I didn’t understand why."
Read more at http://www.wral.com/chapel-hill-murder-suspect-was-banned-from-calling-towing-company/14443091/#iZW5134mg1QhYCXt.99

 

"Anytime that I saw him or saw interaction with him or friends or anyone in the parking lot or myself, he was angry," Samantha Maness said. "He was very angry anytime I saw him."

 

Read more at http://www.wral.com/chapel-hill-murder-suspect-was-banned-from-calling-towing-company/14443091/#iZW5134mg1QhYCXt.99

 

He was an angry man.  He got ticked off when anyone parked in his designated space.  I'd be curious to know the breakdown of people he called the tow company about before he was banned from calling them anymore.  I think that information would provide good clues as to motivation -- whether his actions were motivated by religion or by parking space issues.  I'm sure that information will eventually come out in court.  

 

[Laurie4b]

So, first Kayla's death.  Now this.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/11/reports-3-young-muslims-slain-in-chapel-hill-shooting-n-c-man-charged/

 

When you read the stories, yes, they were Muslim-American kids.  Yes, they were likely targeted by their neighbor because of that.  But also remember please that they were American kids too.  Our very best.  One in dental school...who not only spent his time bringing dental supplies and care to the homeless of Raleigh, but was also trying to bring dental care to Syrian refugees in Turkey.   His wife (whom he had just married in December) found out she got into dental school in December and was scheduled to start this August.  Her sister was an artist and University student.  

 

One family lost two daughters.  I can't imagine their grief.  I can't imagine the grief of thinking OK.. my kids are doing O.K.  They graduated from undergrad, got into a good professional school, just got married.  They're doing good in our local community... helping the homeless.  They're trying to do good for people abroad.  And then they were murdered.  Because of their faith.  

It's just heartbreaking.

 

I saw so many posts on Facebook on how "Americans were mourning Kayla".  I was too.  Her letter to her parents was just heartbreaking.   I'm wondering how many I'll see about Deah, Yusor, and Razan.   

 

Umsami, I hope that you are comforted by the 1000s of people who attended services for the victims. They are not forgotten. They are honored as the honorable people they were. They are mourned for the beauty of their lives snuffed out prematurely. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/12/vigil-chapel-hill-shooting_n_6666366.html   I am sorry that you and other Muslims live in a psychological state of siege in the US. It must be very draining. I admire you and other Muslims who respond in peace to the haters, of whatever ideological stripe they are. :grouphug: to you and your friends in the wake of this.

 

[Laurie4b]

Here is a local article detailing the parking situation:

 

A couple of relevant quotes from the article:

 

"He didn’t like people parking in his space, and he was really, really adamant," Lafreniere said. "I didn’t understand why."

Read more at http://www.wral.com/chapel-hill-murder-suspect-was-banned-from-calling-towing-company/14443091/#iZW5134mg1QhYCXt.99

 

"Anytime that I saw him or saw interaction with him or friends or anyone in the parking lot or myself, he was angry," Samantha Maness said. "He was very angry anytime I saw him."

 

Read more at http://www.wral.com/chapel-hill-murder-suspect-was-banned-from-calling-towing-company/14443091/#iZW5134mg1QhYCXt.99

 

He was an angry man.  He got ticked off when anyone parked in his designated space.  I'd be curious to know the breakdown of people he called the tow company about before he was banned from calling them anymore.  I think that information would provide good clues as to motivation -- whether his actions were motivated by religion or by parking space issues.  I'm sure that information will eventually come out in court.  

 

The FBI is investigating the crime as well. He was obviously an angry, petty person around the neighborhood (not at school according to reports. There he was a well regarded student who was not a loner, who helped other students, etc.).

 

The fact remains, however, that his anger led to the execution-style shootings of 3 people and those were Muslims. That could have been a coincidence and he might have shot anyone that particular day, or it could be that underlying anti-religious and anti-Muslim prejudice may have been what tipped him to cross the line from angry jerk to murderer that day. I doubt if we will ever know. It's not in his interest to admit that. However, his computer writings might reveal more of a targeted prejudice.

 

 

[mathnerd]

 

He was an angry man.  He got ticked off when anyone parked in his designated space.  I'd be curious to know the breakdown of people he called the tow company about before he was banned from calling them anymore.  I think that information would provide good clues as to motivation -- whether his actions were motivated by religion or by parking space issues.  I'm sure that information will eventually come out in court.  

 

We have entered an universe in which it sounds OK to say to the public, “He shoots people in the head over parking disputes, regardless of their race, religion, or creedâ€. The man's wife and his lawyer think so. 

 

Umsami, I get your point - if the situation were reversed - if 3 young "visibly identifiable" muslims shot their middle aged white neighbor in the head over a "long standing" parking dispute, we will have wall-to-wall blanket coverage in the media about America's home grown terrorist problem and how they are all young muslims that grew up in our midst. No one will buy the mentally ill story if that happened. It is unfair and biased. Being a minority is not easy in this country.

[umsami]

Agreed.  However, umsami doesn't accept that the Muslim perpetrator could be anything more than a "poor mentally troubled person."

 

Absolutely not true.  How do you know what I accept and don't?   There are Muslims who do crappy things in the name of religion.  I'll be the first to say that.  It is a distorted view of religion, but yes, they do.  But often, in the US especially, anything bad a Muslim does is viewed because of his faith.   The faith trumps all else whether or not it played a role or not.  

[umsami]

We have entered an universe in which it sounds OK to say to the public, “He shoots people in the head over parking disputes, regardless of their race, religion, or creedâ€. The man's wife and his lawyer think so. 

 

Umsami, I get your point - if the situation were reversed - if 3 young "visibly identifiable" muslims shot their middle aged white neighbor in the head over a "long standing" parking dispute, we will have wall-to-wall blanket coverage in the media about America's home grown terrorist problem and how they are all young muslims that grew up in our midst. No one will buy the mentally ill story if that happened. It is unfair and biased. Being a minority is not easy in this country.

 

Thank you for hearing/understanding my point.  I'm sorry if I haven't been very clear in making it.  

[Spy Car]

Peace to you Umsami in this time of grief.

 

What a shame that three beautiful young lives were extinguished. 

 

Bill

[Pawz4me]

We have entered an universe in which it sounds OK to say to the public, “He shoots people in the head over parking disputes, regardless of their race, religion, or creedâ€. The man's wife and his lawyer think so.

 

I don't believe anyone thinks that or is saying that.

 

[mathnerd]

I don't believe anyone thinks that or is saying that.

 

See the lawyer of the guy quoted here: The shootings have “nothing to do with anything but the mundane issue of this man being frustrated day in and day out with not being able to park where he wanted to park,†Maitland said. “And, unfortunately, these victims were there at the wrong time, at the wrong place. “ 

 

When I read this and his wife's statement (which I do not want to cut paste and clutter up umsami's thread - and which anyone can google for reference), it seems that they are saying that to me.

 

[chiguirre]

Parts of this thread brought to mind the way the Hassan Nidal case (the 2009 shooter at Fort Hood) was classified and handled. Here's a link to the NYT article that discusses the army's classification of the event as "Work Place Violence" instead of "International Terrorist Attack". It's an interesting read and puts the NC case in a different light, imho.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/us/at-fort-hood-wrestling-with-label-of-terrorism.html?_r=0

 

Nidal wasn't charged with terrorism, the military court tried him for murder even though he declared that he shot soldiers as a way to bolster the Islamic empire. It turns out that there are financial ramifications of declaring the shooting a terrorist attack versus workplace violence for the army. There are a lot of shades of gray in both of these cases that don't make labeling them as a hate crime or a terrorist attack as straight forward as you would initially anticipate.

[Amira]

NPR talked about one of the victims today about an interview she did with her third grade teacher. You can listen to it on Morning Edition, or read about it here: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/02/12/385714242/were-all-one-chapel-hill-shooting-victim-said-in-storycorps-talk

 

Umsami, I am sorry.

 

Edited to add that I think it's less important whether this is classified as a hate crime (the shooter is going to be spending a very long time in prison no matter what), but to realize the impact this has on the Muslim community. You can argue all you want that this wasn't a hate crime, but that doesn't change how it feels to many Muslims.

[Laurie4b]

Amira said: (quote thing didn't work)

 

Umsami, I am sorry.

 

Edited to add that I think it's less important whether this is classified as a hate crime (the shooter is going to be spending a very long time in prison no matter what), but to realize that impact this has on the Muslim community.  You can argue all you want that this wasn't a hate crime, but that doesn't change how it feels to many Muslims.  "  end quote.

 

 

 

Well said.

 

The greater community where this took place evidently understands that and has shown great solidarity with the victims and their families. Services at both UNC and NCSU were attended by thousands. And I think there is support nationally as well. The organization that Deah was supporting for dental care for Syrian refugee kids had a goal of raising $20,000 before their deaths. I just looked and it has raised over $319,000. http://www.youcaring.com/medical-fundraiser/syrian-dental-relief/206249

 

So to those in the Muslim community reading this, I hope that you will find some encouragement amid the threats and prejudices you experience as a community and as individuals, because there are many who care.

[Pam in CT]

 

Amira said: (quote thing didn't work)

 

Umsami, I am sorry.

 

Edited to add that I think it's less important whether this is classified as a hate crime (the shooter is going to be spending a very long time in prison no matter what), but to realize that impact this has on the Muslim community.  You can argue all you want that this wasn't a hate crime, but that doesn't change how it feels to many Muslims.  "  end quote.

 

 

 

Well said.

 

The greater community where this took place evidently understands that and has shown great solidarity with the victims and their families. Services at both UNC and NCSU were attended by thousands. And I think there is support nationally as well. The organization that Deah was supporting for dental care for Syrian refugee kids had a goal of raising $20,000 before their deaths. I just looked and it has raised over $319,000. http://www.youcaring.com/medical-fundraiser/syrian-dental-relief/206249

 

So to those in the Muslim community reading this, I hope that you will find some encouragement amid the threats and prejudices you experience as a community and as individuals, because there are many who care.

 

 

:grouphug: Umsami.  I am so sorry for all you, your friends and community are enduring.

 

 

Thank you for posting that link, Laurie.  

 

Some of the messages from different student groups at UNC and other schools who've donated are heart-rending.

 

 

 

 

(If anyone else is curious, Deah's organization works through the Syrian American Medical Society Foundation, which is rated Silver by GuideStar on transparency, accountability and other evaluation measures.)