what age do you insist on phonics instructions?

[Changed]

DD just turned 5 this week. She's always wanted to learn new things and "do" school. She's known her letters by sight and their sounds since a few months after she turned two. She can write several of them, although she prefers upper case letters. She uses words like indestructible and awesome. She loves being read to and we've read Winnie the Pooh and The Narnia, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. But--she refuses to learn to read. It takes tons of prompting to get her to write cvc words, even though I KNOW (pretty sure??) she's capable. Any thoughts? I know advice will be along the lines of "she's young" and "set it aside for awhile", but I've waited two years! She's been stuck at the same spot for two years!

[Ellie]

DD just turned 5 this week. She's always wanted to learn new things and "do" school. She's known her letters by sight and their sounds since a few months after she turned two. She can write several of them, although she prefers upper case letters. She uses words like indestructible and awesome. She loves being read to and we've read Winnie the Pooh and The Narnia, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. But--she refuses to learn to read. It takes tons of prompting to get her to write cvc words, even though I KNOW (pretty sure??) she's capable. Any thoughts? I know advice will be along the lines of "she's young" and "set it aside for awhile", but I've waited two years! She's been stuck at the same spot for two years!

 

She just turned 5? And you're already trying to get her to write cvc words? And she's been "stuck at the same spot" for two years???? Girl, you started too soon. You need to back way off.

[Changed]

She just turned 5? And you're already trying to get her to write cvc words? And she's been "stuck at the same spot" for two years???? Girl, you started too soon. You need to back way off.

 

So when do I start? Shouldn't she begin blending words in Kindergarten? And by "write CVC" words, I mean use magnets on the fridge to sound out a word. :-) And we haven't really been doing much for two years, I just mean she's known everything she knows (phonics-wise) for two years. I just started this week trying to sound out CVC words because we've "officially" started kindergarten, so I figured it was time to start...

[Coco_Clark]

This is exactly why I've never been really into spending time teaching 2 year olds letter sounds and what not. I mean, it's one thing if they are just picking it up. They do that. But you can start teaching letter sounds at 2 and they will learn to read at 5 or 6, or you can start teaching letter sounds at 5 and they will learn to read at 5 or 6. Obviously not always 5 or 6... But whatever age that particular child is developmentally ready to read. You have time, she will get it,

 

I have one kid that was reading CVC words at about 5 and a half, and he was almost 6 before he was WRITING them. Reading and writing are two different skills.

 

My next kid was reading CVC words barely past his 4th birthday. He's currently 5, reading at a 1st grade level, and writing is still nowhere in sight. We just barely started learning a few letters, so that he could sign his name. He might be 6 before he's writing CVC words.

[Coco_Clark]

Just saw your reply. I'm glad you are using magnets :)

 

If she's balking at blending words, you can try blending sounds. Ba, Bo, Bu, ect. But no she shouldn't be blending words just because you started K. Her brain doesn't know you just started K ;)

[go_go_gadget]

So when do I start? Shouldn't she begin blending words in Kindergarten? And by "write CVC" words, I mean use magnets on the fridge to sound out a word. :-) And we haven't really been doing much for two years, I just mean she's known everything she knows (phonics-wise) for two years. I just started this week trying to sound out CVC words because we've "officially" started kindergarten, so I figured it was time to start...

 

*gently* If she's turning five in January and you're not on a Jan-Nov system (like NZ), then she *isn't* in Kindergarten unless you skipped her, which seems not to have been called for. If you are in NZ or similar and she's been a Kindergartner for less than a month, it isn't really fair to expect her to have mastered the entire year yet. You're both doing just fine, and you can relax and shelve this concern for a year or so.

[Tsuga]

So when do I start? Shouldn't she begin blending words in Kindergarten? And by "write CVC" words, I mean use magnets on the fridge to sound out a word. :-) And we haven't really been doing much for two years, I just mean she's known everything she knows (phonics-wise) for two years. I just started this week trying to sound out CVC words because we've "officially" started kindergarten, so I figured it was time to start...

 

The knowing the letter-sound connection starts very early. CVC words is a different developmental phase that seems to catch on between five and seven depending on the kid.

 

My kid refused to do CVC, sounding out, etc. until 6.5. FINALLY she would take instruction. Two months later she was reading chapter books. It clicked.

 

I would say don't force until 6.5. Then slowly work up to required read-alouds at age 7. Lots of reading in groups like at the library encourages them.

 

Both my kids could write CVC words before they read them. I didn't realize that was a "thing" because I was an early reader. But then, my mom was a helicopter and I didn't have a lot of friends or time out so I guess I had to do something with my time! Please note that this never gave me any advantages in life though at some point if the economy continues the way it is I might start writing "learned to read before pre-school" on my CV. My "late" reading daughter reads more advanced books now than I did when I was her age (eight).

[Changed]

Thanks everyone! No, we aren't in NZ. ;-) I wanted to school year-round with the calendar year. I guess maybe that means we start next January. ?? We'll just continue doing what we've been doing...read-alouds, science experiments, games, snap circuits, Roominate...all the stuff she loves. And she's halfway through MEP R and LOVES it! I just figured if she's progressing so easily, willingly, and successfully in every other area she should be starting to read as well. lol

[73349]

DS also knew the letters and their sounds right after turning two. He was not ready to read when he turned 5. It's a whole different kind of skill.

 

He was ready to work some in Phonics Pathways at 5 1/2 (i.e., right when it was time to start kindy). Now at just-turned-7, he is comfortably reading first-grade books, as he should be. (I read well at 4, so I had two years of reminding myself that he is a whole separate person and doing fine.  :001_rolleyes: )

 

Feel free to keep bringing it out--just don't make her hate it. A brain that recognizes letters is not necessarily a brain that is ready to read books. As this next year goes on, you should see her "getting it," and she won't be so resistant.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would start, but keep lessons very short.  Like 5/10 minutes.  Keep reading aloud to her. 

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Of course you've been stuck for years.  She wasn't ready then and probably isn't ready now. 

 

My oldest begged me to teach her to read when she was 3. I refused.  She didn't really want to learn to read, she wanted to know how to read.  There's a huge difference. She begged daily for about a year.  I knew most children aren't ready to learn to read until 6 or 7, but a few are ready earlier.  So when she turned 4 I got out the phonics and did two 5-10 minute lessons a day for a couple of weeks.  She took to it like a duck to water so we kept going.   I never had to repeat anything and she never had to practice it to "get it." On her 5th birthday she read aloud the Little House on the Prairie book my brother gave her.  She read it like an adult would.  She could read any adult book in the house out loud just like the adults could read it. That's what a ready 4 year old looks like.  She could also quote back word for word sections of it. That wasn't normal and I knew it because I had been around a lot of veteran homeschoolers and was aware of the huge range in readiness.

My middle is 22 months younger than my oldest.  At 5 I pulled out the phonics and did two 5-10 minute lessons a day for a couple of weeks.  Other than some letter sounds (we don't teach the names first, it's inefficient and some children are confused by it) not much stuck.  So I put it away for 3 months or so.  Then, I got it back and out repeated the process. Not much stuck again.  So I put it away again. I kept doing that every 3 months or so.  Just before she turned 8 things started to click with her. That's within the range of normal.  By 11 she could read like an adult. She started college at 15.

 

My youngest is more typical.  She took to phonics at 5 but not like oldest.  She made steady progress so I kept going.  If she hadn't I would've stopped and tried again later.  She doesn't read like an adult yet, but she's a very good solid reader and reading more and more advanced things all the time.

 

You're homeschooling now.  People didn't go thorough all the hassle to make homeschooling legal so we could follow and institutional mindset. They wanted something that wasn't one size fits all because one size doesn't really fit all.  That means you're going to have to stop doing things just because in _______grade the schools do _________.  Grade levels are the biggest scam in America and wherever else they do them.  Teach the child in front of you and meet the needs that child has now.

[Ellie]

So when do I start? Shouldn't she begin blending words in Kindergarten? And by "write CVC" words, I mean use magnets on the fridge to sound out a word. :-) And we haven't really been doing much for two years, I just mean she's known everything she knows (phonics-wise) for two years. I just started this week trying to sound out CVC words because we've "officially" started kindergarten, so I figured it was time to start...

 

:blink:

 

Uh...no.

 

Most children who are only just turned 5 (whether or not they are "in kindergarten") are only beginning to understand that sounds are represented by letters or groups of letters.

[AimeeM]

Five

At 5 we start formal academics, no arguments. Now, I, of course, go at their pace, but we do start. We started at 4 with middle kiddo, but in small doses, and nothing incredibly formal.

 

ETA: She may not be ready for actual reading, but that wouldn't stop me (in your shoes) from still implementing some practice with formal academics - I would just adjust my expectations.

[AimeeM]

(regarding the bolded)

But isn't refusing to teach a child who is ready, and who begs to learn, kind of the opposite of what you wrote?

Of course you've been stuck for years.  She wasn't ready then and probably isn't ready now. 

 

My oldest begged me to teach her to read when she was 3. I refused.  She didn't really want to learn to read, she wanted to know how to read.  There's a huge difference. She begged daily for about a year.  I knew most children aren't ready to learn to read until 6 or 7, but a few are ready earlier.  So when she turned 4 I got out the phonics and did two 5-10 minute lessons a day for a couple of weeks.  She took to it like a duck to water so we kept going.   I never had to repeat anything and she never had to practice it to "get it." On her 5th birthday she read aloud the Little House on the Prairie book my brother gave her.  She read it like an adult would.  She could read any adult book in the house out loud just like the adults could read it. That's what a ready 4 year old looks like.  She could also quote back word for word sections of it. That wasn't normal and I knew it because I had been around a lot of veteran homeschoolers and was aware of the huge range in readiness.

My middle is 22 months younger than my oldest.  At 5 I pulled out the phonics and did two 5-10 minute lessons a day for a couple of weeks.  Other than some letter sounds (we don't teach the names first, it's inefficient and some children are confused by it) not much stuck.  So I put it away for 3 months or so.  Then, I got it back and out repeated the process. Not much stuck again.  So I put it away again. I kept doing that every 3 months or so.  Just before she turned 8 things started to click with her. That's within the range of normal.  By 11 she could read like an adult. She started college at 15.

 

My youngest is more typical.  She took to phonics at 5 but not like oldest.  She made steady progress so I kept going.  If she hadn't I would've stopped and tried again later.  She doesn't read like an adult yet, but she's a very good solid reader and reading more and more advanced things all the time.

 

You're homeschooling now.  People didn't go thorough all the hassle to make homeschooling legal so we could follow and institutional mindset. They wanted something that wasn't one size fits all because one size doesn't really fit all.  That means you're going to have to stop doing things just because in _______grade the schools do _________.  Grade levels are the biggest scam in America and wherever else they do them.  Teach the child in front of you and meet the needs that child has now.

 

[Momof3]

I think it's up to you. Do you want her to learn to read now? 5-10 min/day won't kill her. As long as you're giving her plenty of time to still be a 5yo... But if you're uncomfortable with making her do something she doesn't want to, don't stress about it. She's got plenty of time to learn.

 

My kids have been early readers so far, but ds didn't have the coordination to write until mid-kindergarten.

[Jackie]

Thanks everyone! No, we aren't in NZ. ;-) I wanted to school year-round with the calendar year. I guess maybe that means we start next January. ?? We'll just continue doing what we've been doing...read-alouds, science experiments, games, snap circuits, Roominate...all the stuff she loves. And she's halfway through MEP R and LOVES it! I just figured if she's progressing so easily, willingly, and successfully in every other area she should be starting to read as well. lol

If you don't already, you could add some word games into your routines. The "say it fast, say it slow" bit helped my daughter jump into blending - I said a word ssssslllllooooowwwwllllyyyy and then she would say it back fast. We also would do rhyming words, even nonsense rhyming words - dog, bog, nog, fog. And words starting with the same letter - fish float far. I'm sure there's other ways to play with sounds as well, and they all help develop early phonemic awareness.

 

I have an asynchronous child. It's good to remind myself periodically that because she works at an advanced level in some areas does not mean that she has to "catch up" in the other areas :)

[HS Mom in NC]

I think there's a big difference in a child begging now and then and a child begging consistently.  Also, I pointed out that wanting to know how to read is different than wanting to do the work of learning to read. Young children don't always phrase things exactly as they mean them because they're little kids so a parent has to pay attention to what a child really means. Then there's the additional factor of a child being able to learn to read which is getting it and making progress.  If all of those aren't there, then it's time to wait. Erring on the side of caution by choosing not to start a 3 year old in phonics isn't a big deal.  Waiting and watching for other cues at the ripe old age of 4 isn't a big risk.  Better later than earlier if you're going to be wrong. If a child hasn't been making steady progress (and the OP is talking about not much progress in years) then there's a discernment problem with the parent.

 

I know there's a lot of social pressure to have a child reading according to the local community's norms.  Don't be deceived.  The norms are much too early for most kids and they take years and years and years to master phonics and read fluently. I mean reading like an adult when I use the word fluently.  Certain personality types really struggle with idea that they will have to tell people their 7 year old isn't reading yet or that the child didn't take to reading so they put it away for later. 

[sbgrace]

Thanks everyone! No, we aren't in NZ. ;-) I wanted to school year-round with the calendar year. I guess maybe that means we start next January. ?? We'll just continue doing what we've been doing...read-alouds, science experiments, games, snap circuits, Roominate...all the stuff she loves. And she's halfway through MEP R and LOVES it! I just figured if she's progressing so easily, willingly, and successfully in every other area she should be starting to read as well. lol

 

That sounds great! I would keep learning/"school" enjoyable and successful if you can, and especially at ages 4 to 6 or 7. It sounds like you are sensitive to that.

 

The blending really is just developmental. Delaying a bit past ready (because you backed off and missed it) isn't harmful. Pushing prior to ready, though,  causes all kinds of harm. So do relax and give her space to develop. I had one just not ready, and he began developing bad habits involving memorizing words/sight reading. So I delayed both my kids until nearly 7, even though one was probably ready sooner. We used I See Sam for two books and then Progressive Phonics (both free to print). It was enjoyable for all of us and,  because they were older, things moved quickly. Soon they were, and still are, reading beyond grade level.

[go_go_gadget]

Thanks everyone! No, we aren't in NZ. ;-) I wanted to school year-round with the calendar year. I guess maybe that means we start next January. ?? We'll just continue doing what we've been doing...read-alouds, science experiments, games, snap circuits, Roominate...all the stuff she loves. And she's halfway through MEP R and LOVES it! I just figured if she's progressing so easily, willingly, and successfully in every other area she should be starting to read as well. lol

 

MEP R is for four-five year-olds (see UK year/grade system, which starts at age four, not five), so it sounds like she's perfectly on track across the subjects as a pre-K'er. It's working--keep doing what you're doing. :)

[Jess4879]

 Delaying a bit past ready (because you backed off and missed it) isn't harmful. Pushing prior to ready, though,  causes all kinds of harm.

:iagree:

 

Don't think of her as being "stuck."  She's right where she needs to be, you just have to meet her there. 

 

Also, don't think of holding off formal instruction as "refusing to teach."  When you pick up a book and read it to her, she's learning (and you're teaching.)  When you point out a stop sign, read a cereal box, etc all of this is still teaching.  It's how she's figured out what she knows so far. 

[simplemom]

MEP R is for four-five year-olds (see UK year/grade system, which starts at age four, not five), so it sounds like she's perfectly on track across the subjects as a pre-K'er. It's working--keep doing what you're doing. :)

Yes, but my understanding is MEP R is used for 5 year olds in Hungary (where the program originated), just UK chooses to start a year ahead. Of course, I'm not meaning to debate as it is a great PreK program! Just wanted those who don't get to MEP until K to feel okay with starting MEP Reception vs MEP year 1 if that's what suits the child best. MEP 1 doesn't start in Hungary until the equivilent of the U.S. 1st grade year.

 

My dd started a few I See Sam books and simple CVC words at almost age 5 without much prompting from me. I didn't start K until a few months later. I thought K would be a breeze! Well at the end of K (newly turned 6), with 5-10 minutes formal reading instruction each school day, she was only comfortable with I See Sam books up to book 12 and simple CVC words!!! I thought I was a failure at teaching reading (ds learned to read in ps K without my instruction). I felt so bad that I slightly regretted not sending her to ps K. We didn't do much formal reading instruction over our 8 week summer break. 2 weeks into 1st grade we were still at the same place. I had her vision and tracking checked just to rule out eye issues, but the testing was fine. Now she is 6.5. This last month she has taken off with reading/phonics lessons! It's like a light bulb went off. She is reading sentences and word lists easily that were torture for her just 2-3 months ago. I'd guess she is reading " on level" ( whatever that means!). FTR: behind or ahead reading level doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Minus any significant challenges or giftings, I hear most children level out to about the same reading level come 4th grade regardless of whether they were reading chapter books at 4 or if they didn't start blending until age 6 or so.

 

In comparison, my ds wasn't quite 5 1/2 when he entered ps K. He had no interest in reading before that. My friend, who ended up being his K teacher, told me not to worry. He finished K reading at a "2nd grade level" (again, not trying to give credit to the system of assigning reading levels, that's just what his exiting K report said). However, he didn't pick up reading more than a few CVC and sight words until the 2nd half of his K year when he was nearly 6.

[desertflower]

You say that she likes to "do" school, so I would tailor your phonics instructions towards that. (around 5 mins a day) Or you could get Games for Reading by Peggy Kaye. If I remember correctly there's a game like hopscotch. You could put ba, ca, mo, di, etc in the boxes and say jump on the 2 letters that sounds like ba etc.

 

You know your child best. It sounds like you think she is ready. I'd take it slow and see how she deals with it.

 

I would also lay low on the "writing". It doesn't sound like she's enjoying it.

 

Keep on reading.

[SeaConquest]

You could try buddy reading with something like Progressive Phonics (free). If she balks at that then I'd agree that she just isn't ready. It will come. Be patient.

[Dory]

If a child shows that they are ready ahead of time I run with it, but if they don't want it, I refuse to push a child in to academics until they are 6. My oldest needed the extra time. My younger two didn't.

 

My little brothers didn't read until they were 9. It's ok. Really. It is.

 

Pushing a child before they are ready can really, really, really, really backfire. Don't ruin learning for her. Learning should be fun and exciting for those early years. It should be something that they desire. A little kid who wants to learn goes far and fast. My oldest didn't really take off with him learning until he was 8. He's ahead of the game now.

 

 Please. Just keep coming back to it. Eventually she'll be ready.

[Tsuga]

Does anyone else remember a thread a while back--another mom was again teaching her child, also bright and eager in some ways but in other ways clearly not ready--I had a bunch of links about the negative effects of starting early (studies, controlled for socioeconomic status and other factors).

 

I need to find that. It is really eye-opening.

[Kiara.I]

Does anyone else remember a thread a while back--another mom was again teaching her child, also bright and eager in some ways but in other ways clearly not ready--I had a bunch of links about the negative effects of starting early (studies, controlled for socioeconomic status and other factors).

 

I need to find that. It is really eye-opening.

 

Was it this one?

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/535846-learning-to-read-but-wont-look-at-the-page/

[Tsuga]

Yes! Thank you! Here are two rather wide-reaching studies of the literature on this. I looked these up when I was concerned about my child not reading at around five. I can't tell you how glad I am that we had the Germans and Russians, well-educated ones, to really reassure me that it would be okay.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2713445/

 

"Early reading was associated with early academic success, but less lifelong educational attainment and worse midlife adjustment. Early school entry was associated with less educational attainment, worse midlife adjustment, and most importantly, increased mortality risk."

 

http://www.scienceal...se-learning-gap

 

"The study controlled for their home literacy environments, the economic situation of their parents, parental education, school decile rating, their vocabulary development (called receptive vocabulary), ethnicity and sex. Their reading fluency and comprehension were then measured and he found there was “no difference†by age 12 in the reading ability between the early and later starters."

[Kiara.I]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2713445/

 

"Early reading was associated with early academic success, but less lifelong educational attainment and worse midlife adjustment. Early school entry was associated with less educational attainment, worse midlife adjustment, and most importantly, increased mortality risk."

 

 

Okay, that excerpt is kind of freaking me out.  LOL  My two older children both *have* been early readers, hopefully that isn't going to affect them too horribly in the long run...

[Dory]

Okay, that excerpt is kind of freaking me out.  LOL  My two older children both *have* been early readers, hopefully that isn't going to affect them too horribly in the long run...

 

I taught myself to read at 2 1/2 and I seem to be doing alright. Not amazingly, but alright. I think the problem is with pushing them into it too early. If they are pushed at the beginning, then they tend to always feel like they are scrambling and it can really damage the self esteem on little kids.

[barnwife]

Thanks for the links. It confirms my belief that there is absolutely no reason to start formal phonics with our eldest yet (turns five this fall), though he can already identify letters and sounds. He shows no desire to read on his own, though he loves read-alouds. We will keep doing what we are doing for the time being!

I can't answer the question of OP, as I've never insisted yet because we just have littles.

[Tsuga]

Okay, that excerpt is kind of freaking me out.  LOL  My two older children both *have* been early readers, hopefully that isn't going to affect them too horribly in the long run...

 

It was early instruction, not precocious development.

 

I was an early reader too. While I do think there is an important question about school being too easy for precocious and/or gifted learners that can affect lifelong development, that is not what these studies looked at.

[AimeeM]

Okay, that excerpt is kind of freaking me out.  LOL  My two older children both *have* been early readers, hopefully that isn't going to affect them too horribly in the long run...

I wouldn't worry too much. My husband read at a normal (for the US) age of 5, and he is doing perfectly fine in his adult life... as is every other "early" reader I know.   

[GrammarGirl]

DD just turned 5 this week. She's always wanted to learn new things and "do" school. She's known her letters by sight and their sounds since a few months after she turned two. She can write several of them, although she prefers upper case letters. She uses words like indestructible and awesome. She loves being read to and we've read Winnie the Pooh and The Narnia, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. But--she refuses to learn to read. It takes tons of prompting to get her to write cvc words, even though I KNOW (pretty sure??) she's capable. Any thoughts? I know advice will be along the lines of "she's young" and "set it aside for awhile", but I've waited two years! She's been stuck at the same spot for two years!

Writing and reading aren't the same skill, so I would drop the expectation of writing words. TWTM addresses this.

[Momof3]

Yes! Thank you! Here are two rather wide-reaching studies of the literature on this. I looked these up when I was concerned about my child not reading at around five. I can't tell you how glad I am that we had the Germans and Russians, well-educated ones, to really reassure me that it would be okay.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2713445/

 

"Early reading was associated with early academic success, but less lifelong educational attainment and worse midlife adjustment. Early school entry was associated with less educational attainment, worse midlife adjustment, and most importantly, increased mortality risk."

 

http://www.scienceal...se-learning-gap

 

"The study controlled for their home literacy environments, the economic situation of their parents, parental education, school decile rating, their vocabulary development (called receptive vocabulary), ethnicity and sex. Their reading fluency and comprehension were then measured and he found there was “no difference†by age 12 in the reading ability between the early and later starters."

 

Have there been studies like this about hs'ed children in particular? I could totally be wrong on this...but could it be that the 'leveling off' of early/late readers in the later grades is connected to the type of teaching in B&M schools? The factory-style education model that works kids through a machine, ignoring their strengths & weaknesses, and forcing them to conform to a set standard? Very interesting - and definitely creepy - that mortality risk was higher among those who entered schools earlier. 

[Tsuga]

 

 

The factory-style education model that works kids through a machine, ignoring their strengths & weaknesses, and forcing them to conform to a set standard?

 

I am truly sorry if you faced these issues in public schools with your children or yourself. But there is no need to generalize. My children's strengths and weaknesses are not ignored. My children listen to their teachers sing and play instruments. My children get leveled reading. My children have art. My children play outdoors at school... pick-up soccer... with their teachers. So please reconsider your use of generalizations like this.

 

As for leveling off--they catch up by 12, but most schools around here start tracking at 11 (three levels, remedial, standard, college prep "honors").

 

More importantly, this is a longitudinal study of people who started school in the 1920s. (It had to start them to consider mortality and lifelong achievement.) The early reading was associated with early home instruction. So was skipping grades. At that time people did skip grades more in general.

 

In other words, the factor of home-instruction, high parental education, grade skipping, and early morbidity (as well as alcohol consumption) were related. However there are also many studies suggesting that the more intelligent a woman is the more likely she is to be an alcoholic and boy do I know a lot of women who fit that pattern... so there are a lot of factors there. The point is that it's certainly not helpful to skip or accelerate.

 

The other study compared students who learned to read early from public schools to students in Rudolf Steiner schools. They controlled for a lot:

 

As well as controlling for the same variables such as economic situation of families, education of parents, sex, ethnicity and home literacy environments, this study also looked at second language ability, and found out how the teachers taught reading in their classes using questionnaires. This also looked at the amount of time teachers spend on oral language activities versus reading activities to help rule out, or control for, any differences in teaching methods that might account for the results.

 

 

I understand that not everyone has the time or inclination to read the studies but if you are going to hypothesize about homeschooling you may as well see if those generalizations apply in these studies.

 

The kids in the second (NZ Steiner vs. Public school) study were catching up to peers in a very gentle environment; the kids in the first study were fostered in home environments or not and skipped ahead to their "own" level. So while no, they did not look at homeschooled students, they looked at very good data using extremely strong methodology to see if there were differences between early reading instruction and late reading instruction.

 

The 1920s study result is of particular interest to this thread:

 

 

Overall, these findings do not necessarily mean that age at school entry is a primary causal factor in later outcomes. Rather, this study demonstrates that varied long-term outcomes may differ from what might first be expected from a focused short-term outcome.

 

 

 

I would think that would be a great comfort to the many moms watching their children display behavior which is not as precocious as they'd believed possible based on their children's early milestones or family history. :) Anyway, I know I found it comforting!

[Momof3]

I am truly sorry if you faced these issues in public schools with your children or yourself. But there is no need to generalize. My children's strengths and weaknesses are not ignored. My children listen to their teachers sing and play instruments. My children get leveled reading. My children have art. My children play outdoors at school... pick-up soccer... with their teachers. So please reconsider your use of generalizations like this.

 

Sorry, I was being lazy in my generalization. Criticism accepted, point taken. I do have beef with ps system in general...and my experience with ps & ps kids (at least where I have lived - 2 different cities) has been largely children pushed through a grade whether or not they can read & write, etc. I was thinking of those schools when I read the studies. But I get that there are many good B&M schools out there. (I didn't know what a Rudolf Steiner school was...just googled it. The one in Central Park looks like an interesting school...) Again, my apologies.

 

As for leveling off--they catch up by 12, but most schools around here start tracking at 11 (three levels, remedial, standard, college prep "honors").

 

More importantly, this is a longitudinal study of people who started school in the 1920s. (It had to start them to consider mortality and lifelong achievement.) The early reading was associated with early home instruction. So was skipping grades. At that time people did skip grades more in general. 

 

In other words, the factor of home-instruction, high parental education, grade skipping, and early morbidity (as well as alcohol consumption) were related. However there are also many studies suggesting that the more intelligent a woman is the more likely she is to be an alcoholic and boy do I know a lot of women who fit that pattern... so there are a lot of factors there. The point is that it's certainly not helpful to skip or accelerate.

 

Well, the mortality risk was related to early school entrance, not to early home instruction...but right. Based on those studies, skipping or accelerating doesn't help. 

 

The other study compared students who learned to read early from public schools to students in Rudolf Steiner schools. They controlled for a lot:

 

I understand that not everyone has the time or inclination to read the studies but if you are going to hypothesize about homeschooling you may as well see if those generalizations apply in these studies.

 

I was asking an honest question. I did read the studies...okay, I skimmed some of it. So forget my hypothesis, b/c it was based on a faulty assumption (that the schools in the study were similar to the ones I'm familiar with)... I'm still curious if there are studies like this about hs'ed students.

 

 

The kids in the second (NZ Steiner vs. Public school) study were catching up to peers in a very gentle environment; the kids in the first study were fostered in home environments or not and skipped ahead to their "own" level. So while no, they did not look at homeschooled students, they looked at very good data using extremely strong methodology to see if there were differences between early reading instruction and late reading instruction.

 

The 1920s study result is of particular interest to this thread:

 

 

I would think that would be a great comfort to the many moms watching their children display behavior which is not as precocious as they'd believed possible based on their children's early milestones or family history. :) Anyway, I know I found it comforting!

 

Absolutely. :) I'm just trying to figure out how the studies relate to my situation. I think another interesting study would be between kids that were taught to read early b/c they were ready...and kids that were pushed into reading before they were developmentally ready... Looks like I've got some more research ahead of me. :)  Look out Hive search engine, here I come! ;)

 

Sorry if that's incohesive...kids are awake now, and I'm typing with them jumping all around me. :)

[kirstenhill]

A lot can change in a few months at this age -- to you it feels like waiting for years, but to her, her brain may suddenly be getting ready to make that leap.  My boys were ready to blend at 4.5, but my daughter wasn't really ready until 5.5.  But at the age my older DS is at now (almost 8), my DD could read much better, even though she started later.  She moved very slowly from about 5.5 to 6.5 in blending CVC and other easy words...then suddenly at 6.5 just took off far beyond her phonics instruction.  DS7 on the other hand has made slow and steady progress and reads a bit above grade level -- despite his head start.  It's just hard to say what will happen later!

 

There are a lot of phonemic awareness activities you can do as well without doing any actual reading lessons -- practicing "gluing" and "ungluing"  sounds and syllables out loud, etc.  For example, "I'm thinking of a word that is made of /c/ - /a/ - /t/ ...do you know what I am thinking of?"  Or, "I unglued box to /b/ /o/ /x/ ... Can you unglue 'dog'?"   My boys could both do that at 4.5, and were able to start reading soon after...but unsurprisingly, my DD couldn't play those games successfully at the same age, and she also wasn't ready to read.  Rhyming games are good too, as well as listening for beginning and ending sounds of words.

 

If she wants to "do school" but doesn't want to work on reading, you could also focus more on math? There are tons of fun math games to play!