S/O Deep Theological Question-here is another one :)

[sunflowerlady]

I have been thinking about this for a long time. The other thread had this topic appear in it so I am making a spin off.

 

Here it is- These are yes or no questions in my mind.

 

Does God deal with people in their everyday lives? Yes or No. 

 

Are there benefits in this life now on this Earth for a believer? Benefits that do not show up in the lives of an unbeliever? Yes or No?

 

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My thoughts- If God deals with people in their everyday lives, I don't understand how. You could have a Christian pray for their child to be healed of a disease and then the child dies. An atheist could have a child with the same illness and no prayers are offered, and the child lives.  

 

Was God involved here at all?

 

The possible situations here are endless, of course. If sometimes there is a positive outcome for someone and a negative for another, is God involved in that? 

 

The answers to that Yes or No question naturally lead to more questions like Why?

 

Benefits in this life- It is obvious that all people have trials and problems. This relates to the first question. Do believers have any benefits in this life now that unbelievers do not have? Believers pray and trust and read the scriptures. Nonbelievers don't.  Their lives seem quite similar with some good times and also  plenty of trials and problems. 

 

Leaving the afterlife beliefs aside, I don't really see any benefits in the life now for believers vs non believers.

 

I have referenced the Christian faith here simply because it is the dominant belief on the board and in the US where I live. I am open to input from everyone, though. Christians, followers of other faiths, and nonbelievers. All views welcome.

[Lady Florida.]

I'm jumping in early (possibly first unless someone else finishes typing before I do) simply because I happened to be reading the other thread just as you posted about making a spinoff.

 

I'm answering as an atheist, so my answer to all the questions about god are no. Since I do not believe there are any deities, then I can't answer questions about what they do or don't do. Instead I'll address the one question I can answer.

 

Are there any benefits in this life now on this earth, for a believer? The answer is yes. Maybe. It depends. 

 

If you are believer in the majority religion of your country, you enjoy the most benefits. You have the benefit of not being marginalized for your different beliefs. You have the benefit of being accepted as a member of the tribe. In some countries you have the benefit of not being killed, or institutionalized for your different beliefs or lack of religious beliefs.

 

If you are a believer in a "lesser" religion than the majority religion, or one that is somewhat different, you still have the benefit of some people thinking that "at least you believe in something". Many believers prefer to interact with other believers, even if the beliefs are different. They seem to prefer it over interaction with non-believers. I'm making generalizations here; I know not all believers are the same. I have family and friends who are believers but don't care that I'm not. I have family who are believers and are concerned for my soul.

 

While I'm happy with where I live, surrounded by family and friends, I sometimes envy those who live in countries where religious belief is not something people wear on their sleeves, and they don't care who believes or doesn't believe. OTOH, I'm glad that I live where I can be an atheist and be allowed to live, and live independently. 

 

In some countries, it most definitely is a benefit to be a believer. In some countries what you believe matters. In some countries if you believe matters. 

[Onceuponatime]

The answer to the first question for me is no.

 

For the second question, the only benefits that I see, after much personal thought and study, are of a social and psychological nature. There is the benefit of strong connected communities and a networking structure, similar to tribal culture. This often, but not always, helps to provide structure, continuity, and support when times are bad. There is often, but not always, a sense of security, a sense of specialness, motivation to contribute to the well being of the group.

 

There are also the drawbacks of that kind of culture, fear or disdain of outsiders, rigidity, abuse of power, etc.

 

One benefit of being a believer in this country is social acceptance. Polls show that atheists are currently the most feared and hated group in this country. They have been told they are not worthy of American Citizenship, and are deliberately excluded from politics in many places.

 

This is a discussion happening in many parts of the atheist community. See Alain De Botton's youtube video "Atheism 2.0" for a discussion of how secular communities could use some of the tactics of religious communities to reap some of the same benefits. There is naturally some resistance in parts of the atheist community. However, I think this is a concept that is in its infancy and and bound to take different routes to accomplish the same thing. Who knows where these kinds of ideas will lead in the future. The nice thing is that it is all assumed to be voluntary. Anyone can be an atheist alone, and there is no specific group for "True atheists."

[albeto.]

I have been thinking about this for a long time. The other thread had this topic appear in it so I am making a spin off.

 

I'm game. ^_^

 

Here it is- These are yes or no questions in my mind.

 

Does God deal with people in their everyday lives? Yes or No.

 

No. God does not exist. "God" is an anthropomorphic construct of the moral justifications accepted by society, and more directly, one's own conscience as envisioned by a "higher authority," one that knows everything and can offer comfort where no one else can. Some people call it SPAG - Self Projection As God. Each person projects their own conscience, their own moral code. This is the character of God for them. This explains why everyone has a slightly (or not so slightly) different understanding of who and what God is.

 

Are there benefits in this life now on this Earth for a believer? Benefits that do not show up in the lives of an unbeliever? Yes or No?

 

Like the comfort of a friend who is always there, always on your side? Atheists don't have that with respect to the Abrahamic theologies. Then again, atheists don't have to wrestle with the logic that explains why this invisible friend who knows everything and is always on your side stands by when he could (should) conceivably do something useful.

 

My thoughts- If God deals with people in their everyday lives, I don't understand how. You could have a Christian pray for their child to be healed of a disease and then the child dies. An atheist could have a child with the same illness and no prayers are offered, and the child lives.  

 

Was God involved here at all?

 

The possible situations here are endless, of course. If sometimes there is a positive outcome for someone and a negative for another, is God involved in that?

 

Which is why explaining a world in which a god exists is virtually undetectable from explaining a world in which no god exists.

 

The answers to that Yes or No question naturally lead to more questions like Why?

 

Which is where theology suggests the individual stop asking questions and simply accepts the claims by virtue of faith. That's the rub, for me anyway. The question exists, it's a pertinent question. Indeed, I think it is a tremendously important question. The answer eventually comes to the point where theology cannot answer it ("it's a mystery"), and the believer is encouraged to stop pondering and simply trust ("lean not on thy own understanding"). In what other context is that even remotely valued?

Trust me, I'm a doctor - let me see your credentials.

Trust me, I can fly this plane - let me see your license.

Trust me, I speak for God - Okay.

 

Obviously it's not that simple, except it kind of is.

 

Benefits in this life- It is obvious that all people have trials and problems. This relates to the first question. Do believers have any benefits in this life now that unbelievers do not have? Believers pray and trust and read the scriptures. Nonbelievers don't.  Their lives seem quite similar with some good times and also  plenty of trials and problems. 

 

Leaving the afterlife beliefs aside, I don't really see any benefits in the life now for believers vs non believers.

 

I see fewer benefits. Valuing ignorance (which is what faith boils down to, if one will allow a blunt, unflattering description) is not only detrimental to the individual, but when a society collectively celebrates faith, everyone loses. So much more is gained by addressing reality, by recognizing facts and thoughtfully analyzing these facts, creating hypotheses, testing them, paying attention to detail, and learning new things. Note how no society that progresses ever does so by appealing to ancient religious standards or relying on superstitions. There's a reason for embracing reason and logic, it's better for everyone.

 

I have referenced the Christian faith here simply because it is the dominant belief on the board and in the US where I live. I am open to input from everyone, though. Christians, followers of other faiths, and nonbelievers. All views welcome.

 

I reference the Abrahamic faiths as well, as those are the ones to which I am familiar. Less so Islam, but the general religious argument is an Abrahamic religious one in nature, and so I include it.

[forty-two]

 

Does God deal with people in their everyday lives? Yes or No. 

Yes.  For one, God not only created the world but actively maintains it and keeps it going even now, so there is air to breathe and lungs that continue to breathe it, and He works through the lives of all people, believers and unbelievers, to provide everyone's daily bread.  The question isn't so much, "Why do bad things happen?  Why is this good world marred by tragedy?" but rather, "Why is there any good whatsoever in the first place?  Why isn't the world overwhelmed and destroyed by evil?"  The very fact that our sinful world works most of the time for most people is nothing short of miraculous and is entirely due to God's ongoing active involvement in the world He created.  *Everything* good in our daily lives, believers and unbelievers alike, comes from God's constant and continual work in people's everyday lives.

 

 

 

Are there benefits in this life now on this Earth for a believer? Benefits that do not show up in the lives of an unbeliever? Yes or No?

Believers have been reconciled to God by grace through faith in Christ Jesus' atoning life, death, and resurrection.  Our sins are forgiven, we are no longer at war with God, we are made new creations in Christ; we are filled with the Holy Spirit, who creates and sustains faith in us through God's Word and Sacraments, and that faith is a living and active thing, constantly doing good works before the question (of should we do good works) has even been asked.  How can there *not* be a difference between living in God's world while at war with its - and our - Creator, or living our lives in harmony with the God who made the world and us?  Between God working through us unknowingly and unwillingly, using us to do His will even while our wills are entirely opposed to God's will, and us welcoming and eagerly awaiting God working through us, *wanting* His good and gracious will to be done, and awestruck that God would use *us* to do it. 

 

IDK that it's a matter of believers receiving tangible temporal benefits in the sense the world sees them - the rain falls on believers and unbelievers alike - but that Jesus Christ is the way, the only way, to be reconciled to the Father, and we are *meant* to be in fellowship with God, to be righteous before God and before man - that life in line with ultimate reality is way better than life not aligned with reality. 

[Liz CA]

I believe God is involved in our daily lives, however, as much as I wish it were different, His ways are not my ways and many of the things that are happening are beyond my understanding. Perhaps this is why faith is needed.

 

As believers, we are supposed to show God's love and mercy to others. Again not always an easy task. Believers are assured though that there is guidance through the Holy Spirit, there are promises in the Bible that we may claim. Again, though God's timeline often does not line up with ours. Things we are praying for may happen, but not necessarily in our life time. We are not guaranteed an easy path in this life, in fact, it says "Surely as the sparks fly upward, you shall have trouble."

[Ipsey]

I think there are benefits to religious faith.

 

I'm an atheist now, but I can compare this to my years as a Christian.

 

As a Christian:

 

1. I felt there was someone watching out for me all of the time, so that even when bad things happened, I knew that they were being used for my good in some way.  It could be scary, and it could be painful, but I never had to fear things were spinning out of control because an all-powerful, all-loving caretaker had it under control.

 

2. I always had someone who could understand me, love me, support me, forgive me, hear me and who knew my utmost pain and could comfort me.

 

3. When I didn't know what to do, I could ask God, and I knew that he would guide me to a good decision, whatever it was--even if it was difficult. There was someone who knew perfectly what should be done and who could help me.

 

4. Being a part of a good Christian church or community was also very meaningful.

 

5. I didn't have to fear certain things. Climate change that could destroy the planet?  Not my problem!  Animals going extinct--God was going to destroy everything anyway, what did it matter?  I could brush off a lot of the things I'm actually concerned about now in favor of pie in the sky by-and-by and a certain sort of Christian fatalism.  

 

I think most of the benefit was psychological. 

 

There were a lot of psychological difficulties too. Cognitive dissonance. A certain callousness and judgmentalness that I hated but that I had to just go with because of "That's what the Bible says." 

 

I didn't leave Christianity because atheism was psychologically and emotionally more fulfilling, but because I found the truth claims of Christianity to be untrue.

 

Now that I've left Christianity behind for a number of years, I've found things that take the place of those psychological benefits that Christianity gave me, but I can do it without having to embrace untenable religious claims, which is a definite plus in the psychological category.

[Incognito]

I'd rather not speak to the idea of God's daily intervention, but as far as if there are benefits to faith?  Yes, there are.  Besides the social aspect, there is the affect of intentional reflection and striving to be a better version of yourself.  Faith provides an underlying motivation and support community for a person to affect positive change in their own attitudes and life.  

 

Can a person without faith in any god do these particular things?  Sure.  But not all of us are good life/faith unschoolers.  Some of us benefit from structure. :)

[sunflowerlady]

Thanks for the answers everyone.

 

I hadn't thought about a benefit of being part of a majority and the privilege that would bring, here in the US at least. It is interesting that while there is privilege, believers often see themselves as also being marginalized.

 

Yes I can totally see the psychological benefits too. Life is hard and believing that God has it all control and will work it all for good is a.comforting belief.

 

I appreciate all the replies. It helps me as I work through all this on my own.

[Pawz4me]

I don't believe God deals with people in their everyday lives.  What people attribute to Him is either sheer luck (i.e., an answered prayer) or their own subconscious (i.e., God told me what to do).  And of course there's the handy "out" when He doesn't answer prayers -- He knows what's best for me, my timeline isn't His, etc., etc.

 

Are there benefits for believers -- Yes.  I think there are social/cultural benefits as others have already mentioned.  And I think prayer/belief/belonging to a group often bring a lot of psychological benefits.  I may be misremembering, but I think there are studies that show believers typically do better with illness/surgery and aging than non-believers?  And there's the sense of peace many believers often mention from feeling like God is in charge and will take care of everything.  That's a biggie.  However, I think it's likely that practicing various forms of mediation (including mindfulness) can provide many of those same psychological benefits.

 

FWIW, I have always identified as Christian, but recently I'm leaning toward panentheism.

[livetoread]

I think there are benefits for believers, but I also think many of the social benefits can be met through a good support community too.

 

The psychological benefits only come when you are able to believe certain things. When you start to doubt them, the benefits switch to liabilities.

 

Just an example. I (a believer turned non-believer) was talking to my mother (a believer) about the worry involved when your teen starts driving. She agreed, but then said, "I just prayed a lot and trusted God." If I was still a believer, I probably would have found some comfort in that, but instead I just quietly ranted to myself, "And how exactly does that help? Did God actually protect me more because you asked? What were you trusting God to do? Not allow me to die?"

 

It was while I was in the process of challenging these sorts of platitudes that the benefits of belief switched to liabilities because I couldn't reconcile the reality I saw (teens die all the time and praying for protection makes no difference in whether they die or not) with the things I was supposed to be believing (praying for your teen's protection should make you feel better because it does something). Trying to make those opposite things add up just made me feel worse, not better. Becoming a non-believer reduced my stress.

[Joanne]

 

Here it is- These are yes or no questions in my mind.

 

Does God deal with people in their everyday lives? Yes or No. 

 

Are there benefits in this life now on this Earth for a believer? Benefits that do not show up in the lives of an unbeliever? Yes or No?

 

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1) No. I don't believe in a form that controls or "deals with people in their everyday lives." I can't; I've tried and tried and tried. If I did, I'd have to somehow come to terms with an arbitrary god who protected some but didn't others. There is no logical way around this and Christian answers fell way short. So, I dumped the god thing. I do, however, have an understand of a "power greater than myself" which in my case is science. Which brings me to question #2.

 

2) Yes, there are benefits to "being a believer" or having a spiritual path. I personally see *those* benefits as mostly science as well. My brain changes when I help others (science). My brain changes when I fellowship with others (science). Meditation - an ancient spiritual discipline that has a massive researched based evidentiary support. Music, ritual, accountability, encouragement, support are all psychological assists that can be present in communities of faith. I'm personally a believer in the concept of community outlined in the NT.

[PeacefulChaos]

I have been thinking about this for a long time. The other thread had this topic appear in it so I am making a spin off.

 

Here it is- These are yes or no questions in my mind.

 

Does God deal with people in their everyday lives? Yes or No.

 

Are there benefits in this life now on this Earth for a believer? Benefits that do not show up in the lives of an unbeliever? Yes or No?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

My thoughts- If God deals with people in their everyday lives, I don't understand how. You could have a Christian pray for their child to be healed of a disease and then the child dies. An atheist could have a child with the same illness and no prayers are offered, and the child lives.

 

Was God involved here at all?

 

The possible situations here are endless, of course. If sometimes there is a positive outcome for someone and a negative for another, is God involved in that?

 

The answers to that Yes or No question naturally lead to more questions like Why?

 

Benefits in this life- It is obvious that all people have trials and problems. This relates to the first question. Do believers have any benefits in this life now that unbelievers do not have? Believers pray and trust and read the scriptures. Nonbelievers don't. Their lives seem quite similar with some good times and also plenty of trials and problems.

 

Leaving the afterlife beliefs aside, I don't really see any benefits in the life now for believers vs non believers.

 

I have referenced the Christian faith here simply because it is the dominant belief on the board and in the US where I live. I am open to input from everyone, though. Christians, followers of other faiths, and nonbelievers. All views welcome.

1. No

2. No

[gardenmom5]

I have been thinking about this for a long time. The other thread had this topic appear in it so I am making a spin off.

 

Here it is- These are yes or no questions in my mind.

 

Does God deal with people in their everyday lives? Yes or No. 

 

Yes - we are his children.  of course He does.

 

 

Are there benefits in this life now on this Earth for a believer? Benefits that do not show up in the lives of an unbeliever? Yes or No?

Yes. the extent of the daily interaction wtih God, the succor and support.  I grew up in an agnostic family. believe me when I say I have a *very* different life than I would have had, had I continued on the agnostic path I was reared with.

 

 

There is nothing I could say that would convince you there are benefits.  I'm not even going to try. 

 

I was raised agnostic. I have an immediate family member who committed suicide when I was in a very vulnerable place.  so, btdt. no thanks. 

 

My maternal grandmother was a big "god of death, hell, fire, brimstone, yadda, yadda".  she worshipped a god (little "g" is deliberate) who gets his yahyahs out of inflicting pain and suffering.  I understand why people raised with that version don't want anything to do with God. (I don't know why I was able to reject her version - and still believe. Deep down, despite how I was raised, some glimmer of me deep down knew a real God - would love His children.) 

 

I rejected both of those paths.  I have lived more than 35 years as a believer in a loving and kind God, who wants wonderful things for His children.  Just as we want wonderful things for our children.  

   

I have had very real experiences that have confirmed to me there are benefits to my beliefs. just one I will share -  a series of experiences (which built upon each other) ultimately gave me great comfort - and peace - over this loved one's suicide - only many many years later did I learned how another family member (agnostic) had woken crying many days for 15 years, and was still affected 30 years later.  I had had peace for decades - peace that was 100% due to my religious experiences (re: MORE than "just" mere belief.)

 

  there are times I have been sustained through deep challenges, being guided in ways that made absolutely NO logical sense - but worked out.  I have been through the proverbial fire of affliction - and come out the otherside.  I now have a very deep, peaceful, sweet, abiding conviction there is a very loving God.   even when bad things happen, God is there - and will sustain me.

 

[Barb_]

I wonder how many church going people are closet atheists, or at the very least just going through the motions for the sake of community? I wonder if atheists formed their own communities as mentioned upthread, how many people would jump ship and cross over?

[Heidi]

1. Yes

 

2. Like others mentioned: peace, hope, joy through the atonement/repentance. The Spirit provides direction, comfort, and protection. The Priesthood gives access to inspiration for our callings at home and at church.

 

Edited tmi

[Ausmumof3]

Does God work in the every day life of the believer?

I believe he does but not necessarily in an apparent way. It's not as simple as you do good things and God will care for you and if you do bad things he will hurt you. It's more about things that happen to try and direct lives for ultimate good. This belief is bible based for me - not on observation.

 

Are there short term benefits?

 

There is a ready made community. This has obvious benefits but also drawbacks. Drawbacks from mild things like not getting to know other people from different backgrounds because you already have community to stronger drawbacks like exclusion of any one who doesn't share beliefs and excommunication of those who change their beliefs or don't act in the expected way.

 

There is a ready made moral code with a lot of faiths. This is a benefit in that it makes decision making easy but a drawback in that it can prevent people really analysing what is right and what is wrong for themselves.

 

Also there is the sense of security for the future... This has benefits when you are in times of difficulty but can cloud peoples vision as to when they really could be doing something to improve their circumstances.

[IsabelC]

I would think that the biggest short-term benefit to participating in organized religion would be the ready-made community as mentioned above. It must be nice to know that if you suddenly landed in another state, or perhaps even another country, all you need to do is find a church of your denomination and you have a bunch of instant friends and a social engagement at least once a week.

 

And yes, some people might also find a benefit in not having to think too much. Many of us face tricky ethical dilemmas at one time or another, and I'm guessing these could sometimes be easier to deal with if you can look at the Qu'uran or the Hadiths, check what the Pope said, or whatever, and be guided by that. But on the other hand, some religious folk think just as long as deeply about their dilemmas as nonreligious people do.

 

People who belong to a dominant faith group certainly reap the benefits of less, or no, discrimination, but I don't think that's going to be a major factor for most people.

 

I see the security for the future aspect as a negative. I think it's sad if people make no efforts to enjoy their life because they believe that being a martyr (metaphorical or literal) in this life will bring glory in another life.

 

 

 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

I wonder how many church going people are closet atheists, or at the very least just going through the motions for the sake of community? I wonder if atheists formed their own communities as mentioned upthread, how many people would jump ship and cross over?

 

my brother has attended a number of different churches over the years. I think he's looking for a social club - and considering how often his "beliefs" change I don't think he even knows what he believes.  I personally think he's looking for something - but doesn't know what.

 

the funny thing is the number of times he's accused me of "not being spiritual".  (and told me what my church teaches.  last time I DID fall on the floor from laughing so hard.)

[Lady Florida.]

I wonder how many church going people are closet atheists, or at the very least just going through the motions for the sake of community? I wonder if atheists formed their own communities as mentioned upthread, how many people would jump ship and cross over?

 

I think that might be true for some, for those whose social life is connected to church. I know atheists who say they miss the community of a church. I don't, at all. But our social life and church life were completely separate. I think one of our friends went to the same church, but we weren't friends through church. We had met another way and rarely saw each other at church. All the rest of our friends either went to various other churches or didn't go at all. I do understand how some would miss the community they had with a church.

[sunflowerlady]

I am sure that there are many people in churches who, even if they don't identify as atheist, are struggling and questioning. They might be staying involved for all kinds of reasons like family, children, and community.  

 

They probably know at some level the costs of giving it all up. I guess they would be losing some benefits after all. I have read stories online where people are basically socially shunned for things like leaving a church even if it is to attend a different church of another denomination.  It seems like there would be even bigger costs of saying you no longer really believe at all.

[IsabelC]

I think that might depend a lot on the church you are attending. Some churches seem to function more or less like Sunday clubs,  not that different from going to play tennis, sing in a choir or do ballroom dancing once a week. Other churches appear to be all-encompassing and reach into every minute of a member's life. I would imagine that leaving could be quite scary if all of your friends and acquaintances are part of your church, and everything you do on a daily basis is guided by the church.