i'm disappointed in Saxon 8/7. what else would you recommend?

[Chasing3]

this is the first year homescholng my 7th grade son. His school used EverydayMath from 1st - 6th. I did a placement test in the summer and determined that Saxon 8/7 would be the right level and a solid program to try at home. Inititally I had him do a lesson a day, but many things come up where we do things outside the home, so he doesn't do math daily.

But, it seems he blows through the book when he does work on it and everything so far has been review. I'm not "mathy" myself and don't help him at all. He uses the Saxon Teacher dvds and I check his work against the answer book when he's done. Often, he knows how to do the stuff without the dvd. He just blew through lessons 50-59 in seriously 15 minutes (not the mixed practice sets) without even looking at the dvd or reading the directions - he just skipped ahead to all the problems and does almost all the work in his head. Now, every couple of lessons I have him do the mixed practie sets for a grade. When I score his mixed practice sets, he gets and 85% or better and the mistakes are always sloppiness or doing too much in his head, not lack of understanding. 

So anyway, I'm kind of felling like we've wasted a lot of time.

My younger son has homeschooled longer and has a bit of a math disability and he works very slowly and methodically through Math U See. I have to help him every day. I love the program personally and I was directed towards using it because websites on dyscalculia recommended the program (along with others) as good math mastery based approaches for kids with moderate learning disabilities. I think I had/have a touch of math disatility too. Number sense and math fact recall is not my or my younger sons thing at all. So, given that experience, I made the assumption that MathUSee wasn't going to be the right thing for my older son.

Anyway. I perhaps have this compulsiveness to get through Saxon since we bought it. I've decided to let him keep going as fast and he wants, I grade the practice set problems, and every 10th lesson I'll grade the mixed practice set for a score. I think we can finish the book in a month or 2 at this pace.

I don't want to continue with Saxon. I want to switch to something else. I plan to continue with MathUSee for younger son, so buying their pre-algebra and algebra now isn't a big deal since it'll eventually get used. 

I also happen to own used textbooks from a neighbor who's son went to a private school: McDougal Littel textbooks for Math 2 (this looks like same table of contents as Saxon 8/7), Math 3 (this looks like pre-algebra), Algebra I, Pre-Calculus. So I could try those since they're free.

 

anyone else switch from Saxon and what do you like better?
 

[EKS]

For algebra, Jacobs is excellent.

[Momling]

I ussd Saxon as a child, but not as a teacher. However, lots of parents say that the first third of the book is review. There's nothing wrong with review inherently, but he sounds like he needs a challenge. How about if you give him the tests instead of the lesson? Because of his erratic work habits, I'd give him just one quiz each day so he begins to get used to consecutive daily work. If he passes it with 85%, move on. If not have him work through the lessons in that section. If he's truly ready for more challenging work, he'll get through this test/review in a few weeks. At that point you can know for sure that he's mastered the math he needs for algebra. I'd start algebra after that, but not Saxon. Foerster is what we use and it's really good. Once you start algebra though, the focus must be on showing work.

[Dmmetler]

Since he's finding Saxon easy, you might want to try out the Alumcus problems at Art of Problem solving. If he likes that sort of thing, The AOPS books may be a good fit (either pre-algebra or Algebra). I would suggest looking at the end of book tests more than the pre-tests-the PA pretest is deceptively easy compared to the PA book.

 

 

[Ellie]

I'm not clear...is he doing all the problems in all of the problem sets? Because if not he needs to do that.

 

You could have him do one test daily until he is unable to get at least 80%, then go back to the textbook (the tests tell you which lessons are included on each test; you go back five lessons from there).

[mom2att]

At first, upon reading your post, I was absolutely flabbergasted that ANYONE could do 9 Saxon lessons in 15 minutes. We finally dropped Saxon 8/7 here because the lessons were taking my son 2 HOURS to complete. But then I got to the part where you said he wasn't doing the mixed practice for those 9 lessons and I figured it out.  See, for us, the mixed practice WAS the lesson.  I mean, I would go over the material with him and together we would go over the lesson practice, but the bulk of math, for us the bulk of the 2 hours each day, was him completing the mixed practice problems. So if yours is just blowing through the lessons without touching the mixed practice problems, then you're really not using the program as intended.

 

But it could be that he's just way beyond that level and/or that Saxon is just not a good fit for him. A good way to find out is to have him take the tests, as others have mentioned, and when he hits a point with the tests where he is scoring below 80%, begin the lessons there.

[Chasing3]

thanks for the ideas.

 

I just let him skip the mixed practice on these last 9 lessons (50-59) because everything so far had been easy and review for him. My thought was let him work through until there was something he didn't already know... and I was going to do the same thing with 60-69 on Monday, but thinking maybe it's ok to just move on completely.

Prior to today, he'd work on it sporadically, we'd check against the answer key, and redo anything he got wrong. I started grading every couple of mixed practice sets to show him that he could sometimes get partial credit IF HE'D ONLY SHOW HIS WORK!

 

I like the test idea and am going to do that next week. I think he might be able to pass the rest with at least 85%.

 

It does irritate me that he doesn't show his work and I keep insisting that he has to start doing that.

I don't know why AOPS makes my head hurt. My friend showed me her copy and my eyes glazed over. But maybe my kid would love it. Another friend uses something called Jousting Armadillos that she said was fun. 

I like the Foerster suggestion. Would I want the teacher's manual for tests or anything? Does anyone use the Home Study Companion with David Chandler?

The good thing is we haven't written in any of the books, so maybe I can sell it all.

FWIW, I thought his public school math teacher last year was very good and now I'm pretty much convinced she wasn't actually following EverydayMath.

[SparklyUnicorn]

If you think Saxon is too easy, Math U See would likely leave you disappointed.  Just to give you an idea, I did Singapore until 5B then used Math U See Algebra 1 as our "pre-algebra" then did some of AoPS then went onto Saxon Algebra 1.  We are now in Saxon Algebra 2 (my kid turned 13 a few days ago).

 

So just giving a heads up regarding Math U See.

 

Otherwise I don't really have suggestions because I haven't used anything else. 

 

I'm using Saxon 8/7 with my 9 year old (slowly).  I agree it's probably a little on the easy side if one used certain other books prior to jumping into it. 

 

 

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

If he's getting 85% on lessons due to sloppiness and rushing, then I wouldn't consider that blowing through a lesson.  My 5th grade son is doing 8/7, and I'm so frustrated with his sloppiness and rushing that I'm making him start the book over.  Part of being a strong math student is a job well done.  I do recognize that some students are naturally gifted at certain subjects and don't need methodical programs, but for most students practice is what makes them excel, whether it is an instrument, a sport, or a school subject.

 

I recently read The Core by Leigh Bortins.  She mentioned that when her sons would finish a Saxon math book early in the year, she'd have them do it again.  Her reasons are in the book, and I appreciated hearing them.

[Kiara.I]

I recently read The Core by Leigh Bortins.  She mentioned that when her sons would finish a Saxon math book early in the year, she'd have them do it again.  Her reasons are in the book, and I appreciated hearing them.

 

Wow.  I can't imagine what my reaction would have been, as a student, if I'd been told, "Congratulations, you've done great, but you finished early so your punishment is to do all your work over again."

 

I sure would have made sure not to excel the next year!

[Chasing3]

So, I spent all evening researching Foerster and the Math Without Borders Home Learning Companion video lesson series by David Chandler. I think I'm going to go with his Algebra I course and the Foerster Algebra I book. Chandler says on his website that used texts after ©1999 are fine. And the solutions manual is helpful - although I can only find that new on Pearson's website. 

I like lessons on video because I'm not confident I can explain/teach it myself. I suspect i'll need a tutor by Algebra II, because I'll be still muddling along with manipulatives and a multiplication chart with my younger son! 

I'm definitely relaxed/ecclectic. Not aiming for excellence here. Perhaps best described as under achievers. :)

[Roadrunner]

There is always Singapore 7 and 8. It's challenging and not discovery. Hopefully those who have used those grades will chime in. We gave only used through 5b.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Wow.  I can't imagine what my reaction would have been, as a student, if I'd been told, "Congratulations, you've done great, but you finished early so your punishment is to do all your work over again."

 

I sure would have made sure not to excel the next year!

If the goal is to simply finish the book then yes that would be viewed as punishment.  If the goal is to internalize the concepts of math in a family that works through the problems together and uses them as springboards for other teachable moments, as she does in her book, then it wouldn't be.

 

As for my son, he was on lesson 41 when we started the book over.  His new notebook is written with neatness.  He boxes in all his answers.  He clearly shows his work.  He understands the concepts better.  But then again, I'm a mom that sits in on drum, trumpet, and violin practice to eradicate sloppiness. 

 

 

[Pen]

I also think doing the tests for Saxon is a good idea and either finishing the book that way with a secure feeling that he has mastered pre-algebra at a regular pre-A level, or stopping to go into the book at such point as he needs that. Then I'd suggest finding him a more challenging program, whether that is AoPS or Jacobs, or Foerster etc.  

 

Jousting Armadillos and MUS will not IMO be challenging enough for him if he is doing Saxon 8/7 so easily. JA is the first part of a multi book pre-A course.  MUS tends to be good for kids either working way ahead of age grade level, or who have difficulty with math, IME.

[kiana]

Wow.  I can't imagine what my reaction would have been, as a student, if I'd been told, "Congratulations, you've done great, but you finished early so your punishment is to do all your work over again."

 

I sure would have made sure not to excel the next year!

 

I agree completely. I can't think of a better way to make children loathe math and associate it with drudgery and repetition of excessively easy work. 

 

One really major problem that students have with math is a reluctance to tackle challenging problems -- a sort of idea that mathematics *should* be easy, and that if it is not easy, you are just not good at math. Repeating work in programs that are too easy just feeds this mindset. 

[Kiara.I]

If the goal is to simply finish the book then yes that would be viewed as punishment.  If the goal is to internalize the concepts of math in a family that works through the problems together and uses them as springboards for other teachable moments, as she does in her book, then it wouldn't be.

 

I would do that the FIRST time through a curriculum.  Not the second!

[justasque]

I also happen to own used textbooks from a neighbor who's son went to a private school: McDougal Littel textbooks for Math 2 (this looks like same table of contents as Saxon 8/7), Math 3 (this looks like pre-algebra), Algebra I, Pre-Calculus. So I could try those since they're free.

 

anyone else switch from Saxon and what do you like better?

 

 

I am a huge fan of the McDougal Littell textbooks.  There is a Pre-Algebra text that is a sort of half-step up from Math 3 and a half-step down from Algebra I.  That might be a good place to start.  You could have him work through the end of chapter review pages from the Math 3 book, then take the chapter tests in the book, to get a sense of whether there's anything there he should work on before moving on.  The combo of doing the Pre-Alg and Alg I books provides an extremely solid foundation for later math work.  (Though I'd insist he show his work and strive to eliminate the mistakes from sloppy work and doing too much in his head.  This is the point where learning good math habits should be part of the goal of a rigorous math course, as he will soon begin to flounder without them.)

[Guest]

He HAS to show his work. Son 2 is this way as well. What I would do is use what you have. Have your son take the Saxon 8/7 tests SHOWING HIS WORK {this is very important as he gets into higher math.}. I made Son 2 score 90% or above or he started those lessons. Do not let your son skip problems or practice sets even if they are easy for him. You are not just teaching math, you are teaching discipline, as well. Do math first every day. This is also very important.

 

Another thing to consider is, Saxon Alg 1/2 and above are structured very differently than the 5/4 through 8/7 books. Different author, different approach. The upper books are challenging. Nancy Larson wrote the K-3rd books. Steven Hake wrote the 5/4 to 8/7 books and I believe the 'new' editions used in public schools. John Saxon wrote the original Alg. 1/2 to Calculus.

[kiwik]

Wow. I can't imagine what my reaction would have been, as a student, if I'd been told, "Congratulations, you've done great, but you finished early so your punishment is to do all your work over again."

 

I sure would have made sure not to excel the next year!

That is almost exactly what I thought I had posted.

 

It is bad enough getting the 'you finished the first 20 questions perfectly but everyone else is having trouble so you better do the next 20 while I help them' without being made do the book twice. I would make sure to spend more time daydreaming in future.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

I do see your points, but I internalized how important it is to practice fundamentals instead of rushing ahead.  Maybe it resonated with me, because that was the message I needed to hear most for my homeschool right now.  I'm having one of those "take a step back and reevaluate everything I'm doing" moments.  My son was not upset in the least to start the book over, though he was only on L40.  I've changed up everything we are doing though, and we had a 'Let's have a fresh start'  week.  I dropped a bunch of his work that I felt was 'busy' work and am focusing on bare essentials that I want done well.

 

Also, like the author of that book, I do math year round.  If you do math year round, you would need to supplement with another text or repeat something eventually, because the child would wind up too far ahead at some point.  Repeating a text or sections of a text for review is not that much different than summer bridge activities or using a different text on the same level in the summer.

[Haiku]

It does irritate me that he doesn't show his work and I keep insisting that he has to start doing that.

 

Yeah, showing work is a foundational skill for higher math. In my opinion, if he can't show his work, then he doesn't really get it, and if he doesn't really get it, he needs to slow down.

 

If he simply won't (as opposed to can't) show his work, then I would give him zeroes on everything until he does start showing his work.

 

It sounds like neither you not your son are using Saxon the way it's intended to be used. So that's part of why he's blowing through it. I'd do the testing thing mentioned above, keeping in mind that no work shown=a grade of zero, until he gets to more challenging work.

[Pen]

BTW, Why are people suggesting 80% or 85% as a benchmark?

 

I think it would make sense to do tests until coming to a point where he no longer can do well and then to back up several chapters from there to work on the book (if such a place is reached -- otherwise to go onto next math level). But for math, I want to see something like 100%, or close for mastery (unless it is a very hard program like AoPS).

 

My ds has also been working on Saxon 8/7, but I have been expecting a higher percent right before moving on.

[Haiku]

But for math, I want to see something like 100%, or close for mastery 

 

For me, I don't want to teach my kids that the only acceptable way to do something is perfectly. Nobody can give 100% all the time. 

[kiana]

Also, like the author of that book, I do math year round.  If you do math year round, you would need to supplement with another text or repeat something eventually, because the child would wind up too far ahead at some point.  Repeating a text or sections of a text for review is not that much different than summer bridge activities or using a different text on the same level in the summer.

 

If they're getting done way early, they haven't gotten "too far ahead" yet. You'll know it if they do. They'll start struggling somewhat and maybe have to back up ten-twenty lessons or so and re-do them at that point, or even go back to the beginning of the book they didn't understand. But they'll be repeating material they didn't understand rather than repeating material they did.

 

ETA: I'm not saying that you, specifically, should change what you are doing. Clearly you know your kids better than random strangers on the internet, and know when they are getting near to their maximum level. But I see a lot of people who are not you, who have kids that are bored to tears with repetition and the parents are still worried about leaving a gap. 

[kiana]

BTW, Why are people suggesting 80% or 85% as a benchmark?

 

I think it would make sense to do tests until coming to a point where he no longer can do well and then to back up several chapters from there to work on the book (if such a place is reached -- otherwise to go onto next math level). But for math, I want to see something like 100%, or close for mastery (unless it is a very hard program like AoPS).

 

My ds has also been working on Saxon 8/7, but I have been expecting a higher percent right before moving on.

 

If Saxon were topical rather than incremental I'd agree, but with testing through you're looking for where more than 10% of the material will be new. I'd only really recommend testing through for someone who is either new to the program and searching for appropriate placement, or has gone directly from one book to the next without a break and is therefore less in need of the summer review at the beginning. 

[BusyMom5]

Have you scene the Life of Fred books?  My DD got some and loved them!  She would zoom thru the books and know how to do all the problems... but it didn't stick.  That's what I would assume would happen if we just did the Saxon the way you are describing.  The drill and repetition of problems sounds boring, but a lot of math IS boring.   Just because I can show that I know how to balance my checkbook doesn't mean I don't have to continue to balance it.  We want kids to be able to move thru math, but not *too* fast.  Drill and repetition builds stamina (needed for longer math in calc, ect.), makes them more comfortable with the material, and ready to move forward.  When we first started, I got the 7/6 book for my 6th grader, but she could do almost all of it.  I did as others suggested, and we took tests daily until we hit a place where she didn't score well.  Then backed up 10 lessons and started (lesson 90-something).  She is now working thru 8/7, and gets 90+ on all of her tests.  SHe is very comfortable with the math, and while she does say she doesn't like it, she does think it's pretty easy because of how slowly it moves.  She loves getting to work on new problems, but the older ones are good for review.  Since she's doing so well, I did decide to let her skip a handful of problems per set.  She can skip if the lesson number under the problem number is 20 less- so if we are on lesson 50, she can skip anything from lesson 30 and before.  It's cut out a handful of problems on each set, and her test scores are still great.  Our lessons take less than an hour to complete, and I wouldn't want to go over that. 

[Seasider]

I ussd Saxon as a child, but not as a teacher. However, lots of parents say that the first third of the book is review. There's nothing wrong with review inherently, but he sounds like he needs a challenge. How about if you give him the tests instead of the lesson? Because of his erratic work habits, I'd give him just one quiz each day so he begins to get used to consecutive daily work. If he passes it with 85%, move on. If not have him work through the lessons in that section. If he's truly ready for more challenging work, he'll get through this test/review in a few weeks. At that point you can know for sure that he's mastered the math he needs for algebra. I'd start algebra after that, but not Saxon. Foerster is what we use and it's really good. Once you start algebra though, the focus must be on showing work.

I do this but require a 95% on tests.

 

If he hasn't hit a wall by 40% into the book, he probably does need something more challenging.

[EKS]

BTW, Why are people suggesting 80% or 85% as a benchmark?

 

:iagree:

 

If I were having my child test through a Saxon book, I'd want to see scores at 95% or above to justify skipping ahead.

 

Also, my impression of Saxon (and I've used levels 2-8/7) is that it's meant to be easy.  The point of all that drill and repetition is to develop automaticity and when work becomes automatic, it's easy.  If you're using Saxon and it's really hard and it's taking your child 2+ hours to get through a problem set, you're in the wrong level.

 

If you want your child to be challenged, Saxon isn't the right program.  (This is *not* a Saxon bash--it's just that challenge is not the point of Saxon).  You're better off moving to Singapore or AoPS or some other program that was designed to provide challenge.

[Pen]

I do this but require a 95% on tests.

 

If he hasn't hit a wall by 40% into the book, he probably does need something more challenging.

 

 

Unless the reasons are for something like a page layout that is too "busy" or something like that, including maybe even having not mastered earlier material but blown through it, Saxon does not strike me as a program where "hitting a wall" is likely. It is incredibly incremental. Or maybe I understand "hitting a wall" to mean a great deal more difficulty than you intend.

 

And 40% of way through seems to be barely past a review of past material--not yet on to what may be new to the pre-alg level.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

If they're getting done way early, they haven't gotten "too far ahead" yet. You'll know it if they do. They'll start struggling somewhat and maybe have to back up ten-twenty lessons or so and re-do them at that point, or even go back to the beginning of the book they didn't understand. But they'll be repeating material they didn't understand rather than repeating material they did.

 

ETA: I'm not saying that you, specifically, should change what you are doing. Clearly you know your kids better than random strangers on the internet, and know when they are getting near to their maximum level. But I see a lot of people who are not you, who have kids that are bored to tears with repetition and the parents are still worried about leaving a gap. 

Yes I know.  That is the trouble with all these internet conversations is we really know our own kids best.  My son's issue is rushing through everything, not just math.  If he looks up words on thesaurus.com his inclination is to pick the shortest synonyms and not even pay attention to context.  Whatever gets the job done ASAP is his way.  We are finally seeing big changes now that we are half way through the year.  His math is neater.  His writing is neater and more thoughtful, etc...  For him backing up to start over was more about discipline  I'm not just teaching him how to do math or write well.  I'm teaching him how to be a good student, too.  I also cut out a lot of busy work, so he is happy with our recent changes.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Another thing to consider is, Saxon Alg 1/2 and above are structured very differently than the 5/4 through 8/7 books. Different author, different approach. The upper books are challenging. Nancy Larson wrote the K-3rd books. Steven Hake wrote the 5/4 to 8/7 books and I believe the 'new' editions used in public schools. John Saxon wrote the original Alg. 1/2 to Calculus.

Can you elaborate on how Alg 1/2 is structured differently than 8/7?

[Seasider]

Unless the reasons are for something like a page layout that is too "busy" or something like that, including maybe even having not mastered earlier material but blown through it, Saxon does not strike me as a program where "hitting a wall" is likely. It is incredibly incremental. Or maybe I understand "hitting a wall" to mean a great deal more difficulty than you intend.

 

And 40% of way through seems to be barely past a review of past material--not yet on to what may be new to the pre-alg level.

 

 

When I say "hit a wall," it's in the context of achieving that 95% on a test without doing the lessons. It's the point at which a student can't approach problems because new, unstudied content has been introduced in that interim. Trouble with a certain new concept here and there, sure, til it's understood, but I don't mean a real inability to progress through the program. I do agree that if a student is working through the book as a first time learner (as opposed to working past what might be review work), it would be odd to take off well with Saxon and then hit a wall - a true, just can't begin to grasp anything wall.

 

I use testing through 40% as an average. I have used Saxon from 3 to Alg 2; each kid differs in the amount s/he retains over an extended break. It also seems to vary with levels, and occurs more typically around lesson 30,though I've had some only get past three tests and one get past over half of them (elementary level). Lots of variables.

 

So - and I hope this is clear to the OP - my figures are not written in stone, just my shared experience.

[Pen]

Can you elaborate on how Alg 1/2 is structured differently than 8/7?

 

 

My understanding was that Alg 1/2 was a shorter book introducing algebra, with much less review of all the basic math that should precede Algebra 1.  

 

Maybe this would help:

 

[PDF] 

Saxon Algebra 1/2, Algebra 1, and Algebra 2 Scope and Sequence...

www.exodusbooks.com/Samples/SAX/SaxonA12-A2SS.pdf

‎

 

Harcourt Achieve Inc. All rights reserved. 1. Saxon Algebra 1/2, Algebra 1, and Algebra 2Scope and Sequence. Saxon. Algebra 1/2. Saxon. Algebra 1. Saxon.