The de Blasio snub

[Miss Peregrine]

It is not just this one group that is calling for the death of cops. FB groups, videos we haven't seen, intel that police agencies are privy to. . larger number than this one fringe group.

[LucyStoner]

Di Blasio has said very clearly that anyone seeing social media and other threats of violence towards the police should immediately report it.

[Katy]

Sigh.  I can't find a source most of you will think of as neutral that isn't decidedly slanted by not including what he said word for word, but I'll do my best to explain it from a police perspective.  Even the New York Times avoids directly quoting the De Blasio's most offensive comments.  If you're that curious, search for the videos.  Written transcripts can't capture the emotional fear of police that he's expressed.

 

Police officers and their families are a brotherhood.  The job is not that different than war, except that they come home most every night.  You never know when they won't come home though.

 

Now this part is fuzzy and from memory rather than google, but De Blasio was already in a somewhat adversarial position with police union because of the stop and frisk issue new york had. My recollection of the news at the time is fuzzy, but a while back (maybe a year?) a court ruled that NYPD's stop and frisk policy was unconstitutional because it was unfairly targeting young black men.  Now the police departments take on that was that 1) it wasn't unconstitutional because except for maybe two exceptions (out of thousands) they always had probable cause to conduct a search of those men; and 2) it wasn't their fault that the men who were acting in a suspicious enough manner to give legal cause to be frisked happened to be of a minority race.  It wasn't profiling because they had cause, and the policy had demonstrably lowered crime.  This was mostly between the courts and the city, but De Blasio took the side of the judge instead of backing the police.  <Note that I'm not condoning stop and frisk, just giving some back story for perspective>.

 

Fast forward to the grand jury announcement of that horrible death.  Yes, the situation sucked.  And yes, the video was horrifying.  The family thought it was one bad cop on a power trip, not a racial issue. But rather than understand that the entire nation was in a very sensitive state, and rather than expressing frustration at the situation but explaining the legalities of how a grand jury could have come to that decision and been following the law (police have immunity; homicide doesn't mean the homicide you see on TV dramas, and any other legal factors that the mayor would be well aware of), and then possibly suggesting reasonable changes to the law and to the way police work is done (for example, banning arrests for simple tax matters that could just as easily been a ticketing offense), De Blasio stood with Al Sharpton by his side and did every single thing he could do to avoid responsibly calming people down and instead inflame racial tensions.  He doesn't tell a story about actual injustice done to his son, instead he tells us that he warns his son that he must be careful around police because, basically, they are evil racists and out to get him.  No, those weren't the words, but that was the meaning as interpreted by every law enforcement officer and his family.  Al Sharpton does everything he can to inflame racial tensions, and there have been several times that a black person blamed a white person for some horrible injustice that has turned out to not be true, so that did not help De Blasio at all.  Nor did his ignoring the fact that reportedly whites are a minority in the NYPD.

 

Now police are very aware of how to calm down a situation or how to inflame it, much more than most people, because most of their job is helping people in very stressful and potentially dangerous situations calm down.  So watching De Blasio become purposefully inflammatory was infuriating to them.  No would would have objected if he'd spoken in a nuanced way, acknowledging injustices exist but most cops are good people and we need to work on reasonable reforms  (possibilities including limiting police liability in deaths, limiting arrests for misdemeanor offenses, making anything that resembles a choke hold illegal rather than against guideline, body cameras, having the state oversee all police involved death cases rather than local DA's, and others).  Instead most of what he said for days was inflammatory.  He backtracked a bit when the police union asked him to not come to any funerals, but at that point it was too late.  He hasn't apologized.  He hasn't taken any responsibility for choosing to emotionally inflame an already precarious situation rather than to calmly lead.  His actions have at the very least been terrible management and left a huge lapse in leadership.  He is their boss and he's implying that the minority force are mostly hateful racists.  It is no wonder that such inflammatory actions lead to senseless deaths.

 

Here's some NY Times articles on his relationships with police (most are clearly slanted towards being pro-DeBlasio).

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/nyregion/mayor-de-blasio-addresses-police-academy-graduates-at-tense-moment.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/24/nyregion/after-shootings-police-union-chief-in-new-war.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/22/nyregion/a-widening-rift-between-de-blasio-and-the-police-is-savagely-ripped-open.html?action=click&contentCollection=N.Y.%20%2F%20Region&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

[LucyStoner]

Perhaps the protesters need to put themselves in the shoes of the police and their families. Police and their families worry for their safety. That's wholly understandable. It is absolutely unacceptable that anyone would take a gun and murder any cop.

 

Perhaps the police in turn should put themselves in the shoes of the protesters and folks like De Blasio the millions of others like him who do worry, for also wholly understandable reasons, that their children, spouses and friends might be unjustifiably killed by police or vigilantes based on racial or other profiling or poor policy and insufficient training. Saying that I've had reason to worry, and that I continue to have reason to worry, about my black male family members' safety is absolutely not the same thing as saying that all cops are racists.

 

For two such supposedly disparate groups, the police and the protesters want the precisely the same thing. They want their sons and daughters and spouses and themselves to make it home safely every night. People need to try and see the common goals here rather than playing into this ridiculous us vs. them dichotomy.

[Katy]

Absolutely, you're correct Lucy.  It wasn't what he said as much as the way he said it and what he didn't say.

 

And I'm pretty sure that when you remove the situations where someone is actually attacking a police officer or drawing a gun on one (which I for one think of more as suicide by cop), it's still more dangerous to be a police officer than it is to be an innocent kid on the street.

[idnib]

. 

 

[LucyStoner]

Absolutely, you're correct Lucy. It wasn't what he said as much as the way he said it and what he didn't say.

 

And I'm pretty sure that when you remove the situations where someone is actually attacking a police officer or drawing a gun on one (which I for one think of more as suicide by cop), it's still more dangerous to be a police officer than it is to be an innocent kid on the street.

We don't have the data to make that claim one way or the other.

 

You have a lot to say about what/how/what not de Blasio said. What of the police union president wholesale defending the officers who killed Eric Garner and the fact that he maintained, despite the medical examiners contrary finding and what is plainly seen on video, that no choke hold had been used?

 

I think the police union protecting actions like that fueled the rage level every bit as much as the actions of any politician or talking head activist. I would not however blame the union president for the protests or the more extreme reactions of a minority of protesters.

[Katy]

I was under the impression the entire thread was only about de blasio, hence my comments about de blasio.

 

Start another thread about the police union.  I think you'll find it less controversial though.

[LucyStoner]

I was under the impression the entire thread was only about de blasio, hence my comments about de blasio.

 

Start another thread about the police union. I think you'll find it less controversial though.

Threads evolve.

 

And I'm not looking for controversy. I would like to see though less of a blame game and more of a search for understanding. I think that some police are really reaching in their claims about the mayor. I assume that is the fear and the grief and worry talking. It's a sad time. But it doesn't undo the fact that the protesters have every reason to be out there protesting. Their fear and grief and worry is also real.

[idnib]

.

[LucyStoner]

Wish more police departments responded to the protests like the Nashville police! Love the reply by their chief of police to someone who wrote to him complaining that they thought the police should have responded in a more severe/harsh manner to protests. (they served them hot chocolate instead. result? No violence, people felt good about cops. wow. Great way to de-escalate! :) )

Ok, I am now the president of the Chief Anderson fangirl club. That's a seriously thoughtful and nuanced response.

[Matryoshka]

Ok, I am now the president of the Chief Anderson fangirl club. That's a seriously thoughtful and nuanced response.

 

I know - I am seriously impressed by Chief Anderson.

 

It should be more obvious that when people are protesting police brutality of all things, responses like tanks, tear gas, dismissing protesters' claims as being reverse racism, and closing ranks just serve to prove the point in the minds of the protesters.

 

Respecting the protesters does the opposite.  Makes the objections dissolve, melt away.  Makes everyone heard and supported, and that the police are on their side and brutal cops are indeed exceptions.

 

[happi duck]

Ok, I am now the president of the Chief Anderson fangirl club. That's a seriously thoughtful and nuanced response.

I agree, great response! He said so much, so well!

[poppy]

 

 

Even the New York Times avoids directly quoting the De Blasio's most offensive comments.  If you're that curious, search for the videos.  Written transcripts can't capture the emotional fear of police that he's expressed.

 

I am really skeptical that there are comments no journalists will print. "Even the New York Times"- heck, the New York Post would be all over anything remotely verifiable.  And I won't search for videos, since, as we've seen on this thread, those are shown to the public heavily edited to be inaccurate and inflammatory.

[Pawz4me]

First of all -- I am definitely not anti-police.  My cousin has been a police officer for over 30 years.  One friend works as a sheriff's deputy.  Another is a state highway patrolman.  To imply that anyone questioning these unconfirmed comments de Blasio supposedly made is anti-police is disturbing.

 

None of the LEOs I know feel like they're in a war situation, or are comparable to the military.  Not at all.  But we're certainly not NYC.

 

As far as this situation -- I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the fact that the police union leader was so arrogant as to tell the mayor he shouldn't attend the funerals of any police officers.  How in the world is that his place?  That's a huge overstepping of boundaries IMO.  If I were a family member of a slain officer I think I would definitely NOT appreciate him trying to usurp what should be strictly a family decision.

 

My takeaway on this whole situation is that both the mayor and the president of the police union bear a lot of responsibility for the animosity.  What I'm getting is that the mayor has not been accessible to the police leaders and to community leaders.  And that the police union president's comments are mostly pandering to his base (rather than trying to calm the situation), because there's a lot of resentment that the union hasn't had a contract with the city for several years.

 

So . . . as is typical, there seems to be blame on both sides.  It seems to me the outcry over any inflammatory comments the mayor supposedly made (that no one can produce) is a made up issue.

[mamajag]

I agree with this in general but still making protest statements at a funeral seems just over the line for me. The protest idea seems ok but more suitable for a city meeting or press conference than a funeral.

It is the very heart of civil disobedience. I haven't seen where the families were upset by it, and their opinion is the only one that matters.

[poppy]

Protests at a funeral are the heart of civil disobedience? The only group I know that does it regularly is Westboro Baptist Church.

[mamajag]

Outside the venue, quietly turning your back on one speaker is nothing like Westboro. It's telling that so many defend Ferguson protestors yelling curse words, threatening cops, and burning businesses but turning your back outside a funeral is awful.

 

Again, it doesn't seem to bother the only people who matter...the families of the police officers assassinated simply because they were police officers.

[poppy]

Outside the venue, quietly turning your back on one speaker is nothing like Westboro. It's telling that so many defend Ferguson protestors yelling curse words, threatening cops, and burning businesses but turning your back outside a funeral is awful.

 

Again, it doesn't seem to bother the only people who matter...the families of the police officers assassinated simply because they were police officers.

Again dismissing protestors as 'threatening cops' and looters. Completely ignoring the substance of the majority of peaceful protestors. This is starting to remind me of people who called all feminists 'bra burners' (even though no one actually burned any bras) as a way of turning something serious and meaningful to a cartoon defined only by those who want to dismiss it.

[MrsBasil]

Outside the venue, quietly turning your back on one speaker is nothing like Westboro. It's telling that so many defend Ferguson protestors yelling curse words, threatening cops, and burning businesses but turning your back outside a funeral is awful.

 

Again, it doesn't seem to bother the only people who matter...the families of the police officers assassinated simply because they were police officers.

 

I think the venue is at the heart of the issue.  It is for me.  Police officer's turned their backs on de Blasio while he was speaking at a press conference.  That is fine.  Absolutely fine.  Even if I disagree with their reasoning for protest(and I did) I didn't think that action was inappropriate.  I don't understand their upset, but that's OK.

 

At the funeral, during a speaker that it seems(unless someone can provide elusive proof otherwise) the family asked to speak, and making the time about their protest instead of honoring the dead...that is what I had a real problem with.

 

And, for the record, the people I know defending Ferguson protestors are not defending those threatening cops or rioting.  I certainly am not.   We are defending the right to protest or the cause they protesting against in spite of the minority of whackaloons and people co opting this for their own gain.

 

One can be upset about the death of Michael Brown, be fine with protestors, and still think it is dead wrong to chant things that call for the death of an officer.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Outside the venue, quietly turning your back on one speaker is nothing like Westboro. It's telling that so many defend Ferguson protestors yelling curse words, threatening cops, and burning businesses but turning your back outside a funeral is awful.

 

Again, it doesn't seem to bother the only people who matter...the families of the police officers assassinated simply because they were police officers.

 

It's almost like we expect the police to act like professionals and not petulant children.  Weird.

[Miss Peregrine]

I think the venue is at the heart of the issue. It is for me. Police officer's turned their backs on de Blasio while he was speaking at a press conference. That is fine. Absolutely fine. Even if I disagree with their reasoning for protest(and I did) I didn't think that action was inappropriate. I don't understand their upset, but that's OK.

 

At the funeral, during a speaker that it seems(unless someone can provide elusive proof otherwise) the family asked to speak, and making the time about their protest instead of honoring the dead...that is what I had a real problem with.

 

And, for the record, the people I know defending Ferguson protestors are not defending those threatening cops or rioting. I certainly am not. We are defending the right to protest or the cause they protesting against in spite of the minority of whackaloons and people co opting this for their own gain.

 

One can be upset about the death of Michael Brown, be fine with protestors, and still think it is dead wrong to chant things that call for the death of an officer.

What if they were honoring the dead, their brothers, in their own way? Turning their backs on one who they feel contributed to the deaths? Not saying I agree or disagree with it, I don't know yet.

[Miss Peregrine]

Dp

[ChocolateReignRemix]

What if they were honoring the dead, their brothers, in their own way? Turning their backs on the one who they feel contributed to the deaths? Not saying I agree or disagree with it, I don't know yet.

 

Blaming anyone other than the gunman for the death of the officers is absurd.

[Miss Peregrine]

Blaming anyone other than the gunman for the death of the officers is absurd.

I don't blame him. I'm saying they might feel that he contributed to the atmosphere of animosity.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't blame him. I'm saying they might feel that he contributed to the atmosphere of animosity.

 

I didn't say you did, but in reference to the NYPD you said:

"Turning their backs on the one who they feel contributed to the deaths?"

 

Sounds like blame to me.

[MrsBasil]

What if they were honoring the dead, their brothers, in their own way? Turning their backs on one who they feel contributed to the deaths? Not saying I agree or disagree with it, I don't know yet.

 

Fair enough.  I honestly don't know.  It is not within my personal definition of honoring the dead.  I guess I think that there are a lot of ways to make a statement that doesn't turn the focus to something other than the deceased.

[Alessandra]

Here's a NYT editorial about the snubs:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/opinion/police-respect-squandered-in-attacks-on-de-blasio.html?referrer=

[Miss Peregrine]

I didn't say you did, but in reference to the NYPD you said:

"Turning their backs on the one who they feel contributed to the deaths?"

 

Sounds like blame to me.

Emphasis on "they feel."

Nobody has any right to tell others how they should grieve.

[idnib]

. 

 

[LucyStoner]

Here's a NYT editorial about the snubs:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/opinion/police-respect-squandered-in-attacks-on-de-blasio.html?referrer=

That about sums it up.

[mamajag]

What if they were honoring the dead, their brothers, in their own way? Turning their backs on one who they feel contributed to the deaths? Not saying I agree or disagree with it, I don't know yet.

That's how I see it.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Emphasis on "they feel."

Nobody has any right to tell others how they should grieve.

 

Shenanigans.  The NYPD doesn't get to ignore all reason and logic because they are "grieving".

[Pawz4me]

All I can say is that if I were a member of the family of the slain officers, and the other officers had done that -- creating a spectacle and bringing attention to themselves during an event that was meant to honor the deceased and comfort family -- I wouldn't be happy with them.  It was IMO incredibly rude and juvenile behavior.  Wrong place, wrong time.

[poppy]

Here's a NYT editorial about the snubs:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/opinion/police-respect-squandered-in-attacks-on-de-blasio.html?referrer=

 

But none of those grievances can justify the snarling sense of victimhood that seems to be motivating the anti-de Blasio campaign — the belief that the department is never wrong, that it never needs redirection or reform, only reverence.

 

The NYDP is justifiably  famous and, yes, revered based on the heroism seen on 9/11.  I do agree the are squandering that reverence.

 

And I loved this quote by Comm.  Bratton.  Beautiful.  Wish these got more attention:

 

“The police, the people who are angry at the police, the people who support us but want us to be better, even a madman who assassinated two men because all he could see was two uniforms, even though they were so much more. We don’t see each other. If we can learn to see each other, to see that our cops are people like Officer Ramos and Officer Liu, to see that our communities are filled with people just like them, too. If we can learn to see each other, then when we see each other, we’ll heal. We’ll heal as a department. We’ll heal as a city. We’ll heal as a country.â€

[Alessandra]

But none of those grievances can justify the snarling sense of victimhood that seems to be motivating the anti-de Blasio campaign — the belief that the department is never wrong, that it never needs redirection or reform, only reverence.

 

The NYDP is justifiably famous and, yes, revered based on the heroism seen on 9/11. I do agree the are squandering that reverence.

 

And I loved this quote by Comm. Bratton. Beautiful. Wish these got more attention:

 

“The police, the people who are angry at the police, the people who support us but want us to be better, even a madman who assassinated two men because all he could see was two uniforms, even though they were so much more. We don’t see each other. If we can learn to see each other, to see that our cops are people like Officer Ramos and Officer Liu, to see that our communities are filled with people just like them, too. If we can learn to see each other, then when we see each other, we’ll heal. We’ll heal as a department. We’ll heal as a city. We’ll heal as a country.â€

Thank you for taking the trouble to pull out the quotes! I was on a phone and not adept enough to do it.

 

I truly wish I could agree with you about NYPD being revered, but the NYPD stop and frisk policy was far from welcome in many circles.

 

Stop and frisk allows police to stop and frisk pedestrians for no reason. The program really took off in the last years of the Bloomberg administration. Reforming stop and frisk was a major campaign promise of de Blasio's and one reason he won.

 

Here is one article, admittedly against the practice, but in line with what I believe (and right up there on Google).

 

http://www.diversityinc.com/news/judge-nypds-stop-and-frisk-policy-is-unconstitutional/

 

Bratton's comments were my favorites too. De Blasio's hired him, fwiw.

[LibraryLover]

NM

[Truscifi]

I've read several articles this morning saying that the NYPD has largely stopped policing as a part of their protest. :huh:  How can they possibly justify that?

 

If it is true, any sympathy they had will likely evaporate.

[Alessandra]

I've read several articles this morning saying that the NYPD has largely stopped policing as a part of their protest. :huh: How can they possibly justify that?

 

If it is true, any sympathy they had will likely evaporate.

Here is The Atlantic's take on this

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-benefits-of-fewer-nypd-arrests/384126/

 

I love the NY Daily News articles too, less polite.

[Truscifi]

Here is The Atlantic's take on this

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-benefits-of-fewer-nypd-arrests/384126/

 

I love the NY Daily News articles too, less polite.

 

This quote pretty much sums my confusion:

 

But the police union's phrasing—officers shouldn't make arrests "unless absolutely necessary"—begs the question: How many unnecessary arrests was the NYPD making before now?

[idnib]

. 

 

[*Lulu*]

This article by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was very fair and I think echoes what many posters have been trying to articulate.

 

http://time.com/3643462/kareem-abdul-jabbar-nypd-shootings-police/

 

I especially connected with this quote:

 

"In a Dec. 21, 2014 article about the shooting, the Los Angeles Times referred to the New York City protests as “anti-police marches,†which is grossly inaccurate and illustrates the problem of perception the protestors are battling. The marches are meant to raise awareness of double standards, lack of adequate police candidate screening, and insufficient training that have resulted in unnecessary killings. Police are not under attack, institutionalized racism is. Trying to remove sexually abusive priests is not an attack on Catholicism, nor is removing ineffective teachers an attack on education. Bad apples, bad training, and bad officials who blindly protect them, are the enemy. And any institution worth saving should want to eliminate them, too."

[SKL]

 

The only part of this that made me a little uneasy was the "all parents should" teach kids how to respond to officers.  That's obviously true, but it's so dismissive of the fears expressed by just about  every black parent in America.  We've heard about those fears over and over, in all cities, by rich and poor. Especially since the murder of Treyvon Martin (and his killers' acquittal).  If we can't acknowledge that fear and the divide that comes with it, how can we ever heal?  This snub is probably abouk a whoel lot of things, as you mentioned. But coming as it does after the Ferguson protests, the death of Eric Garner, the lack of charges against of the officer who killed him, and the mayor's comments about his own black son, it really feels like a it is the NYPD's comment on race.  And it's not a pretty one: it's we don't care, we're not going to change.  Perhaps that was not what it meant to convey, but that's how it read to me as an outsider.

 

One - I teach my non-black daughters how to respond to police officers.  Every parent should.  I do not know what the non-racist alternative would look like, because everyone I know who has been hassled or killed by police (and I heard about it) was white.

 

Two - I am amazed that the cops' snub of the mayor was read by anyone as "we don't care [about racist abusers on the force], we're not going to change [our rotten racist ways]."  How offensive.

 

Three - "we hear about those fears over and over" etc. - well.  Let me just say that if my kids or my friends told me they were afraid of black people, I would not say, "that is right, because there are bad black people who have been known to hurt, rob, rape, and kill non-black people.  So you should stay away from them and this is how you should protect yourself if one happens to cross your path."  No, that would be both ignorant and racist, even though the fact is that there are bad black people and many of my friends and family have been robbed at gunpoint / assaulted / raped by black people, and have reason to be scared at times.  I would remind my kids/friends that most people of all colors (and in all uniforms) are good people who would be more likely to help you out of a bad situation than put you into one.  I'd focus on what to do to keep safe regardless of color / uniform.  If I got on here and said, "of course I have to tell my kids to act differently around black people because white people have fears and things do happen," I would be skewered and I'd deserve it.  Very few people would agree if I said, as you did above, "if we can't acknowledge that fear and the divide that comes with it, how can we ever heal?"  Judging, dissing, and discriminating against a group of people just because there are some bad apples isn't OK regardless of who that group is.

 

Four - not sure what this has to do with Trayvon Martin, who was not killed by a cop.

[poppy]

 

 

Two - I am amazed that the cops' snub of the mayor was read by anyone as "we don't care [about racist abusers on the force], we're not going to change [our rotten racist ways]."  How offensive.

 

Precisely, it was offensive.  Every one of the mayor's "offensive" comments was related to race.

[TranquilMind]

Can someone in law enforcement explain this one to me, because I'm stumped.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hundreds-of-nypd-snub-nyc-mayor-de-blasio/

 

I heard so much against the protestors in Ferguson.... but protesting at a funeral is ok?

Completely inappropriate and highly inconsiderate.