Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[Matryoshka]

If there were a treatment to bring your physical body in line with your mental age, would you use it? Would you feel that others who did were somehow immoral?

 

I think virtually everyone in the state of (southern?) California is already using medical treatment to bring their physical body in line with their mental age, at least it seems that way sometimes... ;) ;)

 

[Caroline]

I think this thread could also be potentially hurtful to our dear Dirty Ethel Rackham, Ellen. While I talk a good game and walk a good walk in being a safe place at school, I haven't had to understand from a parent's point of view. When I read what she wrote, it really opened my mind towards what parents are feeling. What she wrote both broke my heart and lifted me up. Broke my heart in seeing the pain of her child and lifted me up in how she and the family found the strength and heart and love. So Ellen, if you are reading this thread, you are an inspiration to me.

[albeto.]

I don't know. Is it possible to feel this way and still not betray your moral code? The description of how they feel breaks my heart.

 

It breaks your heart because you sympathize with pain and suffering, even if you don't experience it yourself. That's empathy. That's human.

 

What kind of moral code encourages people to suppress that, and apply instead ancient standards that lack information?

[Haiku]

To say that someone is a man because the person was born with XY chromosomes or that someone is a woman because that person was born with XX chromosomes seems like an objective standard, just as determining my age based on my birthday compared to the current date on a calendar seems like an objective standard. 

 

I'm not trying to pick on you, specifically, merry gardens, I just want to respond to the idea you brought up. In terms of an objective standard, what I would ask is, does it matter? Does it actually, really matter to anyone else? If someone is 60 but wants to hang out with younger people, go clubbing, wear skinny jeans, or do anything else that outwardly designates them as younger (including using makeup to hide wrinkles), who cares? If a person attempts to disguise their "objective" age, who cares?

 

Similarly, who does it really affect if someone feels that their "objective" sex doesn't accurately reflect them and chooses to portray themselves as the gender that does reflect them? Who should really care, and why? I understand it being difficult for parents to understand that the person they believe to be their daughter feels like he is their son, but the vitriol directed at gender-variant people is really, hugely out of proportion to how it actually, objectively affects anyone else.

 

Some of the posts in this thread have honestly reminded me of little who kids who get all bent out of shape and tattle when they think someone else is doing something wrong. "Mrs. Smith, Johnny just acted like a girl, and that's against the rules!"

[albeto.]

And what has been pointed out here or in other threads is that science is showing us that transgender people have brain markers that correspond with their gender identity and not with the wrong-body they were born with.  So fix the brain or the body?  We don't know how to fix the brain, and honestly if you felt that you were a woman and medicine could make your body fit that would you be more likely to choose to change who you are in your head, or make your body match even if it were more painful and costly?

 

It's interesting to me to see a nation that prides itself on self-autonomy, that identifies itself based on the values of independence and self-determination would also work so hard to oppress others, and even encourage people to suppress their own autonomy, their own sense of identity, their own ability to determine what they want from their own lives. It's not surprising, any community has to have standards everyone follows so there isn't anarchy and chaos. It is a testament I think, to the power of our religious beliefs that we as a society fight (and until now, always win) the battle of individual independence.

[Tanaqui]

 

To say that someone is a man because the person was born with XY chromosomes or that someone is a woman because that person was born with XX chromosomes seems like an objective standard, just as determining my age based on my birthday compared to the current date on a calendar seems like an objective standard.

 

Except that this isn't the standard we use when talking about babies. We eyeball their genitals and guess. It's not unheard of for a child to be designated female only to find out later - whoopsie! - that they have xy chromosomes (or both xx and xy). And it's *really* not unheard of for a child to be born with indeterminate genitals, either.

 

Even if we did use this standard, why should we? Who *cares* if your neighbor goes by Jane instead of John? What darn business is it of yours?

[albeto.]

Except that this isn't the standard we use when talking about babies. We eyeball their genitals and guess. It's not unheard of for a child to be designated female only to find out later - whoopsie! - that they have xy chromosomes (or both xx and xy). And it's *really* not unheard of for a child to be born with indeterminate genitals, either.

And it's not like standards aren't changed all the time. It used to be the standard for women to wear skirts and dresses exclusively, cover from neck to toe, and work outside the home only if they required the income. It used to be the standard for blacks to keep their eyes down, and be grateful for whatever education they had. It used to be the standard for children to accept whatever corporal punishment a parent, teacher, or concerned citizen in the neighborhood thought was a good idea at the time. We change standards all the time to reflect an evolving moral code, an evolving standard of ethics.

 

Even if we did use this standard, why should we? Who *cares* if your neighbor goes by Jane instead of John? What darn business is it of yours?

This is a very good question.

[poppy]

Well that's not the question though - it is, what do you do if it's your child.

[Tanaqui]

Well that's not the question though - it is, what do you do if it's your child.

 

I don't see how the principle is so different. This is still something that affects nobody but the person in question.

 

[merry gardens]

I'm not trying to pick on you, specifically, merry gardens, I just want to respond to the idea you brought up. In terms of an objective standard, what I would ask is, does it matter? Does it actually, really matter to anyone else? If someone is 60 but wants to hang out with younger people, go clubbing, wear skinny jeans, or do anything else that outwardly designates them as younger (including using makeup to hide wrinkles), who cares? If a person attempts to disguise their "objective" age, who cares?

 

Similarly, who does it really affect if someone feels that their "objective" sex doesn't accurately reflect them and chooses to portray themselves as the gender that does reflect them? Who should really care, and why? I understand it being difficult for parents to understand that the person they believe to be their daughter feels like he is their son, but the vitriol directed at gender-variant people is really, hugely out of proportion to how it actually, objectively affects anyone else.

 

Some of the posts in this thread have honestly reminded me of little who kids who get all bent out of shape and tattle when they think someone else is doing something wrong. "Mrs. Smith, Johnny just acted like a girl, and that's against the rules!"

Thank you for not trying to pick on me.  I'm somewhat torn as I reply to you as I don't like bumping up this thread. I'd really like to see other things being discussed, but since it keeps popping up anyway, here it goes.... 

 

If some botoxed 60 year old in skinny jeans, hangs out at clubs wearing make-up wants, would you find grave fault with twenty year olds who looked at her and said she's not twenty? If she thinks she's twenty-something, why should it really matter to her what the rest of us think? It's not just that people want to dress up to match their mental picture of themselves--it's that they want the rest of us to agree with their mental image of themselves.

 

Who does it affect?  Well, if I was that 60 year woman--(and I'm not! I'm much, much younger)-it might affect and hurt my oldest if I told him I couldn't possibly be his mother since he's older than I am.  If I denied that I was his mother, and claimed I was instead his younger sister, he might certainly be hurt, especially if I continued to do that in earnest, truly believing I wasn't his mother.  Just as it may grieve families if what they knew to be their father or mother or son or daughter or sister or brother denies being their father or mother or son or daughter or sister or brother.  I know that I am not my oldest child's younger sister--even though it sometimes confuses me as to where the years went. 

 

By the way, I sometimes wear both skinny jeans and make-up. It helps me look closer to my mental age, but it does not actually change the passage of time nor my birthdate. And as to how I really look in these skinny jeans, well, let's just say my feelings get hurt every time I go to the doctors office and hear what they tell me they think I weigh. That doesn't match my mental image either.  While my age is something that changes from year to year, just as fashions, styles and my weight may change--some things do not change. 

[TranquilMind]

Oddly enough, I can relate. I'm trapped in an aging body! For almost two decades I lived as a girl, then for at least another decade, I lived as a young woman.  I identified as a young, slim, attractive woman. I don't feel I'm old, but my driver's license says I am at least a decade older than I feel.  Some of people here seem to suggest that my morals and values are old and antiquated, however I feel quite young.

 

When I see pictures of myself, I'm somewhat shocked to see that my outward body doesn't match how I feel. Does that mean that I'm in reality a different age since my mental age doesn't match my physical age?  Is there not some objective standards--such as the year of my birth--that we can use to determine how old I am?

 

To say that someone is a man because the person was born with XY chromosomes or that someone is a woman because that person was born with XX chromosomes seems like an objective standard, just as determining my age based on my birthday compared to the current date on a calendar seems like an objective standard. 

Now on that, we are in total agreement!  I'm trapped in this body too, that does not match my view of myself as a 25 year old  adventuresome, slim, young attractive woman, but being trapped with the mismatch is better than the alternative, as my Mom used to say.  I'm sticking around to see what happens next.  So many times, I have already thought, "Oh,  I wish my Mom (brother, sister, friend, etc- I've lost them all) could have lived to see this!"  And I try to enjoy it in proxy, so to speak. 

 

She also used to say that she would wonder who that old woman in the mirror was, and I'm getting closer and closer to total understanding on that one too. 

 

And yes, your analogy is quite apt. 

[TranquilMind]

Thank you for not trying to pick on me.  I'm somewhat torn as I reply to you as I don't like bumping up this thread. I'd really like to see other things being discussed, but since it keeps popping up anyway, here it goes.... 

 

If some botoxed 60 year old in skinny jeans, hangs out at clubs wearing make-up wants, would you find grave fault with twenty year olds who looked at her and said she's not twenty? If she thinks she's twenty-something, why should it really matter to her what the rest of us think? It's not just that people want to dress up to match their mental picture of themselves--it's that they want the rest of us to agree with their mental image of themselves.

 

Who does it affect?  Well, if I was that 60 year woman--(and I'm not! I'm much, much younger)-it might affect and hurt my oldest if I told him I couldn't possibly be his mother since he's older than I am.  If I denied that I was his mother, and claimed I was instead his younger sister, he might certainly be hurt, especially if I continued to do that in earnest, truly believing I wasn't his mother.  Just as it may grieve families if what they knew to be their father or mother or son or daughter or sister or brother denies being their father or mother or son or daughter or sister or brother.  I know that I am not my oldest child's younger sister--even though it sometimes confuses me as to where the years went. 

 

By the way, I sometimes wear both skinny jeans and make-up. It helps me look closer to my mental age, but it does not actually change the passage of time nor my birthdate. And as to how I really look in these skinny jeans, well, let's just say my feelings get hurt every time I go to the doctors office and hear what they tell me they think I weigh. That doesn't match my mental image either.  While my age is something that changes from year to year, just as fashions, styles and my weight may change--some things do not change. 

This is really excellently stated. 

[TranquilMind]

Anyone egging you on toward your own unique blend of arrogance and persecution complex should be ashamed of themselves, because nothing you've had to say yet aligns with Christianity, tradition, American values, science, or anything solid. So the only thing left to privately applaud (chickens) is unkindness and ignorance.

 

If that's not the case and a major and respectable world religion has been authentically represented by this poster's words, I'd appreciate having that pointed out. If possible. I doubt it.

Take your insults somewhere else and direct them at someone you can hurt more, since this is your objective here.  This is not the place to lob insults toward people directly, and it is a really lowbrow tactic.   I always wonder why people feel the need to do this, instead of stick to the topic, which was this family in particular, and gender dysphoria/expanded into GLBT issues in general.  I'd be ashamed of having posted this sort of response to another poster. 

 

Nowhere did I say anything even remotely comparable, nor direct anything toward anyone in particular here, except to answer Rosie's question about why I come here, which is the same reason she is here, to discuss issues.    

 

Go to the end of the thread instead where some other posters jump in with some really excellent analogies.   

[TranquilMind]

I really dislike the attempt to turn these discussions into some kind of a culture war. 

 

Everybody ( or nearly everybody ) has people who agree with them, and will PM to tell them so. This isn't a - excuse the Aussie slang - pissing contest.

Exactly.

[TranquilMind]

That's what I curious about as well. What I see is that you deny the existence of transgender issues all together and yet I'm sure you realize you're not going to change anyone's mind here, as we realize we're not going to change yours. 

 

50 years ago the Internet didn't exist either, yet here we are. 

I see it more as speaking the objective truth.  This family that has lost their oldest child DID have a son, though no one seems willing to acknowledge their loss of their oldest son.  We have to play word games at such at time.  Appalling.

 

Even more appalling was the subsequent scheduled post by the young person, thanking a couple of friends, telling the sibs they would be missed and a great big "F*** YOU!" to the parents in a public forum.  That makes me want to vomit. What a vengeful move. 

 

The kid had two years, and out the door, if that was what was desired.  Two years. 

 

The really interesting question to me here is why some will persevere despite what they perceive as (or what are objectively...i.e. concentration camp or prison) horrible surroundings, and others fold?  This isn't theoretical to me, as I have lost people close to me, and I still wonder why. Same family.  One perseveres, one folds, sometimes even under the same contraints or circumstances.  Why? 

 

But here I am getting back to ideas, if anyone cares to actually discuss them, rather than hurl insults my direction.

[TranquilMind]

What does level of education have anything to do with the understanding of gender issues? 

Nothing in particular, as any of us could be highly educated on some issues.  But when you are erroneously suggesting someone is "uneducated" simply because they don't agree with your conclusion from a set of facts, then it is acceptable for the person to correct the misimpression. 

 

Just be honest state the truth as you(general you) see it:  "You disagree with ME, so you must be stupid and have not been properly educated as I have." 

 

I can respect directness and honesty.  At least own what you (general you) are saying.

[Ravin]

I am learning a tremendous amount, and I am open to learning. As I've said before in this thread, the best way to learn is from people who have personal experience. As a straight, cisgendered Christian woman, I want to learn as much as I can about the experiences and feelings and lives that other people have. I approach this dialog with humility and compassion, knowing that, at the core of my Christian faith, is a desire to love others as Christ does and to do nothing intentionally to add to another person's pain.

 

(I learned the word cisgendered from this thread. I said I was straight not because this is about sexuality but because it demonstrates how really "mainstream" I am. I am also white and educated and in the US so I am privileged out the wazoo and am very aware of that.)

You are far and away more representative of the sort of Christians I think are the majority (or like to think at least). I know trans people whose church communities have been accepting of them as well, including in quite conservative places and denominations. Generally, I think once people recognize that we're talking about a medical condition, and when someone is both healthier and happier and comfortable in themselves after transition than before, it becomes obvious. I also know trans folks who hold conservative, traditional views about homosexuality who also have no trouble seeing their own condition as medical and thus can reconcile transition with their beliefs.

[TranquilMind]

No, you just think I'm delusional because you don't think most transgender people are "really" what we say we are.

I believe you believe you are whatever you say you are.

 

Why is it important to you that I agree with your subjective assessment?  That's an important question, I think. 

 

 

Why am I (as a member of the public, say) forced to abandon objective facts?  (I don't know what the facts are here; I have no idea if you were born or claim to be a woman or a man, or which was the birth designation, but I'm just speaking to the idea itself, since someone said that you identify with this group, which I did not know.)

[LucyStoner]

When someone says that being trans goes against their values I have to wonder what they would prefer.

 

My brother dead.

 

My brother trying to still live as my sister and being miserable and depressed and non functional.

 

My brother successfully transitioned and living as a loving, dedicated father of 2.

 

There's only one prolife option up there and yes, the choices for him really were that black and white/stark.

[Tanaqui]

The kid had two years, and out the door, if that was what was desired.  Two years.

 

That's 1/8 of her total lifespan at this time. She had already spent two years under this treatment. Two more would have brought it up to nearly 1/3 of her life by the time she aged out of her parents home - possibly longer if, like most young adults, she needed parental support to go to school, sign a lease, or do other "adult" activities.

 

That's a LOT of time to be unhappy.

 

Why am I (as a member of the public, say) forced to abandon objective facts?

 

Why is this so important to you? Your idea about facts is more important than Ravin's feelings? Whatever happened to compassion?

[Ravin]

Take your insults somewhere else and direct them at someone you can hurt more, since this is your objective here. This is not the place to lob insults toward people directly, and it is a really lowbrow tactic. I always wonder why people feel the need to do this, instead of stick to the topic, which was this family in particular, and gender dysphoria/expanded into GLBT issues in general. I'd be ashamed of having posted this sort of response to another poster.

 

Nowhere did I say anything even remotely comparable, nor direct anything toward anyone in particular here, except to answer Rosie's question about why I come here, which is the same reason she is here, to discuss issues.

 

Go to the end of the thread instead where some other posters jump in with some really excellent analogies.

So you prefer to be insulted indirectly? I'm assuming you've adhered to the precept "do unto others as you would have done unto to you."

[TranquilMind]

And if I tell you I hate or find inherently wrong and unethical (maybe even evil) some fundamental part of your identity (such as your religion, which is clearly very important to you), you would not feel the least bit personally rejected ore find me at all hypocritical I'd iI then said I respect you as a human being anyway?

 

Please note that I don't hate Christian/Christianity in general or you personally. It was a hypothetical.

That is absolutely fine if you "hate" Christianity or me.  You wouldn't be alone in these anti-theist parts around here.  There are several anti-theists right here on this forum, so of course, we are always going to clash on viewpoints.  Everything they say about important values and societal interests is wrong, backwards, and upside down, from my perspective, and the opposite is true from their perspective. 

 

Would I feel personally rejected?  Not really, not unless we had been close friends and then you dumped me as a friend; then, I would feel it personally.

 

Otherwise, it is just par for the course.  Some will love me (I'm actually a kind and generous person, I am told, believe it or not) and some will hate me, and most will be indifferent.  Very, very few real friends in this world, I find, unfortunately.   

Some don't know me at all, but feel free to level judgments about me personally, which I find perplexing.  I might judge their ideas, but not them as people.  They could be lovely people with stupid ideas.  ;)

[Ravin]

I see it more as speaking the objective truth. This family that has lost their oldest child DID have a son, though no one seems willing to acknowledge their loss of their oldest son. We have to play word games at such at time. Appalling.

 

Even more appalling was the subsequent scheduled post by the young person, thanking a couple of friends, telling the sibs they would be missed and a great big "F*** YOU!" to the parents in a public forum. That makes me want to vomit. What a vengeful move.

 

The kid had two years, and out the door, if that was what was desired. Two years.

 

The really interesting question to me here is why some will persevere despite what they perceive as (or what are objectively...i.e. concentration camp or prison) horrible surroundings, and others fold? This isn't theoretical to me, as I have lost people close to me, and I still wonder why. Same family. One perseveres, one folds, sometimes even under the same contraints or circumstances. Why?

 

But here I am getting back to ideas, if anyone cares to actually discuss them, rather than hurl insults my direction.

You are blaming a suicide victim for her own depressed and unbalanced mental state.

[TranquilMind]

So you prefer to be insulted indirectly? I'm assuming you've adhered to the precept "do unto others as you would have done unto to you."

Lol.  How about we stick to the issues and don't intentionally call anyone names or insult them?

 

I kind of thought that was the concept on forums.    Silly me...I thought we were supposed to discuss ideas, not attack people directly and call them names. 

 

I'm so boringly adult. 

[TranquilMind]

You are blaming a suicide victim for her own depressed and unbalanced mental state.

No, you might want to re-read what I said; I ask a question, probably a question with no answer.  But I do wonder.  And objectively in this case, this kid DID have just two years.  It isn't as if the kid were dying of some awful thing and there were no reprieve in the offing.

 

Oh, and it is disgusting to post "F You" to your parents publically, regardless of who you are or what your reasons.  Sue me.  I own that. 

 

 

ME:  I see it more as speaking the objective truth. This family that has lost their oldest child DID have a son, though no one seems willing to acknowledge their loss of their oldest son. We have to play word games at such at time. Appalling.

 

Even more appalling was the subsequent scheduled post by the young person, thanking a couple of friends, telling the sibs they would be missed and a great big "F*** YOU!" to the parents in a public forum. That makes me want to vomit. What a vengeful move.

 

The kid had two years, and out the door, if that was what was desired. Two years.

 

The really interesting question to me here is why some will persevere despite what they perceive as (or what are objectively...i.e. concentration camp or prison) horrible surroundings, and others fold? This isn't theoretical to me, as I have lost people close to me, and I still wonder why. Same family. One perseveres, one folds, sometimes even under the same contraints or circumstances. Why?

 

But here I am getting back to ideas, if anyone cares to actually discuss them, rather than hurl insults my direction.

[TranquilMind]

So indirect attacks are fine?

 

Actually, is it really an indirect attack if you know you're talking directly to people you know to be affected by the issues we're discussing?

Talking about ideas is fine.  How is this so difficult to understand?

 

If I say Democrats have some really bad ideas, or this Democratic President is the worst (for example), I am discussing IDEAS that the DEMOCRATIC PARTY HOLDS.  President Obama might be a rocking guy to know personally.  How is this unclear?

 

Same thing here, or pretty much with any topic.  You can discuss an issue or a set of facts, and often do, because it happened between some people in the media.  You can agree with one side or the other, think one group or the other has the correct values, but that does not mean you are personally insulting the one with which you disagree...does it? 

Not to me. 

[LucyStoner]

So TM, you want sympathy for the parents you claim all who disagree with you lack (despite I believe a number of posts where I and others did defend the parents and express sympathy for them?) but you show basically no kindness or sympathy towards the child so depressed that they opted to take their own life? You want to talk about resilience? Do you understand that suicide is not a function of moral fiber or weakness but a consequence of illness?

[TranquilMind]

I am saddened that she still refers to her now deceased child as male. I think she really does not get it, even after. That makes me very very sad.

Here is what you don't get: MOM lost a MALE child, her oldest son. 

 

Whether son thought he was a son anymore or not, this is the loss that mom grieves.  She gave birth to a baby boy, with all the hopes and dreams that this entails.  This is what she has lost.

 

 

Surely, you aren't unable to see this entirely.  Even those who have accepted gender switches in their kids grieve the loss of the child they knew - look at Cher.  She discussed this very thing, about how it was like the "death" of Chastity, her daughter, when Chaz came into being, and she had to grieve that.

 

Why do you (general you, those who are castigating the parents) not allow these parents that dignity to grieve what they lost?  That's amazing to me.

[albeto.]

Well that's not the question though - it is, what do you do if it's your child.

 

The answer to Tanaqui's question inspires the answer to your question.

 

Regardless, it is a very good question.

[Seasider]

They're probably not.

 

Or, at least, they're not licensed in the same way that psychologists and other counselors are.

I have been reading this thread with interest and want to thank you, Tanaqui, for this article link. It is lengthy, insightful, and helpful to me in current circumstances. I hope others will take the time to read it in its entirety, and consider it with as well as apart from its applicability to this thread's original case (which is tragic, but which I am not commenting on).

[TranquilMind]

Well, if you said (first thing that comes to mind here) that Jews conspire to control all the world's money, as some indeed believe, you'd be discussing ideas. As a Jew, I'd also be pretty darn insulted. So would many other people, who despise antisemitism. If you say that trans people are delusional and not really what they say they are, the same thing happens, as you already saw. The ideas you are discussing involve real, actual people, you see. You're not just saying that you disagree with someone's views. You are denying the core of their being. That may be fine with you, but as you see it's not fine with everyone.

Ok, you would (rightly) be insulted, if anyone said that.

 

But could you discuss the idea dispassionately despite the fact that you personally happen to belong to the group implicated?  I could.  Substitute Christians for Jews.  I could.  Or women, for Jews, I still could.  Or Blondes, for Jews....yep, still could. 

 

And I am all of those things, and an actual person with feelings. 

 

I've lost family members to suicide, but I can still discuss the idea.  Maybe not initially, but I can now.   

 

I don't find the need to manipulate people into sympathy because I happen to belong to a disfavored group. Some people will have it naturally; others are more logical than emotional. Neither is necessarily wrong, but merely bring different perspectives. 

 

 

 

[Haiku]

If some botoxed 60 year old in skinny jeans, hangs out at clubs wearing make-up wants, would you find grave fault with twenty year olds who looked at her and said she's not twenty? If she thinks she's twenty-something, why should it really matter to her what the rest of us think? It's not just that people want to dress up to match their mental picture of themselves--it's that they want the rest of us to agree with their mental image of themselves.

 

I do understand what you are saying. I guess that to me, it matters because there is a line between looking on and disagreeing and looking on and actively attempting to suppress someone else's attempt to live a life that is meaningful to them. Honestly, I don't care what people really, actually believe about transgender people (I mean, I wish that everyone would make an attempt to understand, but in the end, people have to freedom to believe what they want). I do, however, care whether people go out of their way to express disapproval of something that really, honestly doesn't affect them and in so doing cause real, actual, tangible harm to the people it does affect.

 

I'm sure your son wouldn't be super happy if you suddenly declared yourself his younger sister. But, as I have had to remind my dd20 over the years, a dd who suffered many unfortunate circumstances and experiences in her young life before joining our family, life is full of hard knocks, for everyone, and we can either dwell on them and bemoan our misfortune or we can, to some degree, buck up and accept that not everything that affects us is about us. If my mother suddenly became my father, I would grieve the loss of my mother and also work to accept and find happiness in the changed circumstances. I'm not saying that families of transgender kids should just suddenly and radically change their entire paradigm (tra-la-la) with nary a feeling of confusion, anger, grief, or what-have-you. What I am saying is that in our love and care for other people, we work to come to acceptance of the fact that our desires and beliefs about the people we love don't take precedence over their own. And that if we are truly outsiders, for whom the entire issue is merely an academic one, we simply do what we can to cause no harm to others.

 

I understand that people have a right to their own opinions. It just grieves me that the feelings of real, live, vulnerable human beings don't seem to be super important and that insisting that someone else's personal experience of life is flawed, warped, wrong, weird, etc., takes precedence over kindness. This is the climate that contributes to a 40-50% rate of attempted suicide by transgender people, and I really have to ask ... is your need to be right really worth creating such a dangerous and damaging cultural climate for someone else (and when I say "you," I mean the general you, not you specifically)? Is your need to be right worth more than another person's very life?

[hornblower]

But here I am getting back to ideas, if anyone cares to actually discuss them, rather than hurl insults my direction.

 

This, in & of itself is insulting. As are some of your previous comments about not blocking because of fear etc., never mind the comments you have made which would be hurtful & dismissive to people dealing with gender identity & families supporting loved ones going through same.

 

You also blithely dismiss the trauma this young person was facing.

 

 

It isn't as if the kid were dying of some awful thing and there were no reprieve in the offing.

 

But that is exactly how this person felt.

 

Your comment does not show any understanding of mental health, depression, or despair, never mind how those might play out in a person confronting gender issues.

 

previously you used the word smug to refer to some of the comments expressed. Honestly:  look in the mirror.

[LucyStoner]

Using the name Leelah and the feminine pronoun to honor her stated preferences is not stripping the parents of their right to mourn their child and son as they see fit.

 

I was none too happy about not having a sister anymore. But I dealt with it and moved on for the sake of my sibling's health and welfare.

[TranquilMind]

And this is the core of the issue here. If the mom could have mourned the loss of a son a long time ago, and accepted that she had a daughter instead, it is not unlikely that she would still have a living child. 

We have absolutely no way of knowing this.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I certainly hope that everything would have been perfect.

 

This is just an unknown.  The kid, if mentally unstable -which I think is a given, considering suicide- may have committed suicide later.  Who knows?

 

And you are asking Mom to accept the impossible, given her religious beliefs.    It is right to ask Mom to accept her CHILD, and most likely, this is what would have happened, had said child decided to stick around.  The relationship could have been fabulous over time.   

 

It is not reasonable to ask Mom to decide immediately upon being told or within a year or two of discovery that God made a mistake and gave her an opposite gender child in the wrong body, and her inability to do so quickly enough means she deserved to lose her child, or worse, what the worst elements are saying out there - that she "killed" her child.  I object to that characterization intensely. 

[TranquilMind]

This, in & of itself is insulting. As are some of your previous comments about not blocking because of fear etc., never mind the comments you have made which would be hurtful & dismissive to people dealing with gender identity & families supporting loved ones going through same.

 

You also blithely dismiss the trauma this young person was facing.

 

 

 

No, actually I recognize the trauma that the ENTIRE FAMILY had been facing for a year or two, unlike almost everyone here. 

 

I removed your namecalling insult and stuck to the idea. 

[LucyStoner]

We have absolutely no way of knowing this. Maybe. Maybe not. I certainly hope that everything would have been perfect.

 

And you are asking Mom to accept the impossible, given her religious beliefs. It is right to ask Mom to accept her CHILD, and most likely, this is what would have happened, had said child decided to stick around. The relationship could have been fabulous over time.

 

It is not reasonable to ask Mom to decide immediately upon being told or within a year or two of discovery that God made a mistake and gave her an opposite gender child in the wrong body, and her inability to do so quickly enough means she deserved to lose her child, or worse, what the worst elements are saying out there - that she "killed" her child. I object to that characterization intensely.

I believe I articulated this, more or less, several pages back

[TranquilMind]

So TM, you want sympathy for the parents you claim all who disagree with you lack (despite I believe a number of posts where I and others did defend the parents and express sympathy for them?) but you show basically no kindness or sympathy towards the child so depressed that they opted to take their own life? You want to talk about resilience? Do you understand that suicide is not a function of moral fiber or weakness but a consequence of illness?

I don't lack sympathy for the child, as I stated right up front, for anyone who bothered to read it.  I think it is tragic.

I do lack sympathy for the attacks in writing this young person leveled on the parents, to be posted after the suicide.  Not a big fan of vengeance and big public "F you" statements towards one's parents.

Maybe you find that kind of thing acceptable. 

[TranquilMind]

I agree that this is an interesting question. 

Let's take that to a new thread.  ;)

[Farrar]

If dressing in too-tight bling jeans made my mother happy and was part of her identity in an integral way, I really hope I'd have the wherewithal to get over myself and accept her and let her just be happy and not quote things about acting your age or nag at her about how inappropriate it is or anything. Because she's my mom and I love her, not my idea of how she should be.

 

Also, this conversation got useful and interesting again... and then sort of derailed to insults again... Sigh.

[TranquilMind]

I am absolutely certain it would still have been incredibly hard for Leelah, had her mother accepted her for what she was. Maybe she would still have committed suicide. There is no way of knowing that. At the very least, should she not have been able to feel safe and accepted at home? She wasn't a criminal. She was just a trans person. 

I totally agree with that, and would always make my own children feel loved, accepted, and safe at home, even if I disagreed with them.

 

Something tells me the result may well have been the same, but we will never know.  I pray that the young person finds peace. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Take your insults somewhere else and direct them at someone you can hurt more, since this is your objective here.  This is not the place to lob insults toward people directly, and it is a really lowbrow tactic.   I always wonder why people feel the need to do this, instead of stick to the topic, which was this family in particular, and gender dysphoria/expanded into GLBT issues in general.  I'd be ashamed of having posted this sort of response to another poster. 

 

Nowhere did I say anything even remotely comparable, nor direct anything toward anyone in particular here, except to answer Rosie's question about why I come here, which is the same reason she is here, to discuss issues.    

 

Go to the end of the thread instead where some other posters jump in with some really excellent analogies.   

 

Are there more than one of you participating on this account? You keep losing track of your own behavior in this thread.

 

You are the one who has made the topic about yourself and your meanness instead of about the initial topic, you are the one who has insulted and attacked people both directly and indirectly, and you are the one who has offended the entire board except for one person who has liked your posts and (of course) your invisible PM fan club.

 

Then, having done all that, you say, "Stick to the topic and don't insult me."

 

Laughable. And regrettable.

[TranquilMind]

Nobody is manipulating people into sympathy. Some people are calling for justice, for a world in which people would not be marginalized for being who they are, and a world in which people didn't feel the need to actively deny the identities of others. I doubt you'd be unmoved if someone said terribly unkind things about who you are, on a daily basis. 

They have said terribly unkind and completely wrong things here, right on this thread. 

 

See, each person in this scenario you present believed the OTHER was denying true identity. There are two sides here, not just one.  Mom/Dad wanted their son to be a son, and the young person was demanding they see their son they gave birth to as a girl. 

 

Two sides. 

 

 

But yeah, in real life, I would not choose to be surrounded by people who were insulting me regularly and did not value me. 

 

I've been there in my life.  I'm not there now.   

[TranquilMind]

Are there more than one of you participating on this account? You keep losing track of your own behavior in this thread.

 

You are the one who has made the topic about yourself and your meanness instead of about the initial topic, you are the one who has insulted and attacked people both directly and indirectly, and you are the one who has offended the entire board except for one person who has liked your posts and (of course) your invisible PM fan club.

 

Then, having done all that, you say, "Stick to the topic and don't insult me."

 

Laughable. And regrettable.

No, I think you might be confused about that;  it is the opposite. I did not attack anyone personally.  I'm not talking about myself.  I'm not "mean".  I'm discussing ideas. 

 

I've offended no one intentionally.

 

I'm talking about ideas.  Not people. I don't have to level attacks at people who disagree with me.  I'm more rational than that. 

[hornblower]

I'm talking about ideas.  Not people. I don't have to level attacks at people who disagree with me.  I'm more rational than that. 

 

"i'm more rational than that." is not kind because it reads like you're implying that others are not.  Do you see that?

 

[Btervet]

No, I think you might be confused about that;  it is the opposite. I did not attack anyone personally.  I'm not talking about myself.  I'm not "mean".  I'm discussing ideas. 

 

I've offended no one intentionally.

 

I'm talking about ideas.  Not people. I don't have to level attacks at people who disagree with me.  I'm more rational than that. 

 

Those "ideas" ARE people. People with feelings. People who are in pain because of the words you have said.

 

It's OK to have beliefs about the legitimacy of gender dysphoria. It's not OK to go calling a whole group of people delusional. It's rude, and impolite. It doesn't matter that you don't think it is. You words are hurting people, I don't get why you would continue.

[LucyStoner]

Ok, my brother transitioning was not an affront to my religious beliefs because while at the time I was still quite invested in my religion I didnt see trans as being counter to my faith.

 

It was however very, and let me emphasize, VERY challenging for some of my core personal beliefs. I am a feminist, all in, unashamed, hard core. My username is taken from a well known feminist, my husband is a feminist, at the time my main community activities were Home Alive, Take back the Night and a riot grrl styled feminist art and action group I founded on campus, complete with a fire breathing chick on our posters.

 

It was a big struggle for me to reconcile my brother's need to change his gender with some of my most centrally held core values. If gender is a social construct then why the hellz should this matter? Just be who you are in the body you've got, there's no boy or girl things. Secondary sex characteristics aside, gender is irrelevant, right?! Want muscles? Get off your duff and join me at the gym, I've got muscles. I was a way bigger tomboy and we were both sexually attracted to males so what's the big deal here? I'm happy as a somewhat gender non-conformist so why is it any different for you? Honestly I think it was in some ways harder for me to understand than it might be for someone who sees gender in a very binary, boys do this and girls do that way. All of the stuff my brother felt he'd missed by not being a boy was stuff I felt I had as a not very girly girl type of girl. Our other brother is also a total nightmare train wreck and I wasn't really happy about not having a sister. I had a brother, and I didn't want another one really.

 

I didn't however make my feeling and thoughts the main thing. He was hurting and needed help. My values were simply not the relevant details there. I talked to my husband (then boyfriend) about it privately. I read a lot of books and did my research on my own. Ultimately I had to discard some of my notions about gender only being social norms. 1. I realized I was wrong about some things. 2. I realized that I didn't have to like it or even quite agree for it to be his reality. 3. I saw that, to the extent gender norms are social norms, being social norms didn't make them any less important to the people they are important to.

 

I am still a feminist though I think there's some good science to gender differences. I am still pretty much a massive tomboy. I still don't buy into all of the same notions of gender as my brother. But I can accept that my values define my life, not his and vice versa.

[Mrs Mungo]

"i'm more rational than that." is not kind because it reads like you're implying that others are not. Do you see that?

 

Recently I heard someone say, "I work with this girl, she is black, but she is actually a hard worker!" This is insulting to black people as it implies that most black people are not hard working. Many of the comments in this thread are similar. It doesn't matter whether or not the insult was intentional.

[LucyStoner]

I don't lack sympathy for the child, as I stated right up front, for anyone who bothered to read it. I think it is tragic.

I do lack sympathy for the attacks in writing this young person leveled on the parents, to be posted after the suicide. Not a big fan of vengeance and big public "F you" statements towards one's parents.

Maybe you find that kind of thing acceptable.

The child is dead. I suspect her parents wish their child was around to publicly swear at them while still living and breathing. I'm not going to judge someone clearly in the depths of despair for their word choice. Because, I mean, really? Is THAT what matters here?

[Mrs Mungo]

But I can accept that my values define my life, not his and vice versa.

For me, this is what the whole debate comes down to. Can we accept it when our children choose differently than we do? Don't we have to? Isn't it inherently *irrational* to deny who they say they are? It isn't *impossoble* (as has been claimed) for Christian parents to accept that their child is atheist, gay or gender non-conforming, even if it is hard.