Ferguson

[SKL]

Really? You know, even in that case I wouldn't expect to be shot. Of course I would never ever do anything even remotely like it but if I did I would assume they would just slap some handcuffs on me and take me to the nearest jail... Now partly this is because I am clearly not physically intimidating - I don't think any police officer would be afraid that I could overpower him/take his gun etc. and the situation is different with a larger male. But I really can't imagine a scenario in which I as a white woman would be shot by the police short of me actually holding a gun in my hand and probably firing it... Not saying it wouldn't happen, just that it isn't on my radar.

 

I don't put that much stock in my whiteness or my femaleness.  I don't plan on testing it out any time soon.  My kids need their mama.

 

I would also note that Mr. Brown had a friend with him.  Granted, his friend was a smaller guy, but loyal enough to stick around and give a statement after the incident.  So it was potentially 2 against 1.

[Mrs Mungo]

Indeed, to my knowledge black officers are also disproportionately likely to shoot black civilians. There's a bigger problem here than the simple issue of the race of the officers involved (although nationwide, police departments are overwhelmingly white).

Exactly. The statistics I posted bear out this statement, if anyone actually clicked on the link and read the data/analysis.

[shage]

It happens.  Nobody denies that.  But it does not mean that is always the case, or even usually.

 

If I go on and on about how many white people I know who were raped (or attempted raped), robbed at gunpoint, etc., by black people, along with really ugly statistics to prove my point, would that be helpful to a discussion on race relations?  Or would I be called an ignorant racist trying to generalize a minority of people's behavior to a whole race?  Well, that is how I see your posts.  All that does is fuel the fire of hate.

I am late to the conversation and just pulling my head up out of some professionals duties that have required me--of all things--to be neck deep in crime statistics.

 

What is your data?

 

Because what I am seeing from the reputable sources (eg FBI, UCR, NCSV) is that crime disproportionately impact minority communities. And within race/ethnic community violence is far more frequent than inter-race violence. Because people tend to get violent with those they know, and we are most likely to know people who are like us.

 

If you have statistics from a reputable source to the contrary, I would love to see them.

[MrsMommy]

That is what it said in the news conference last night. That Wilson was at a call for a child in distress, waited for the ambulance, drove to the area of the robbery, asked Brown to stop blocking the street and drove a ways. He then heard a description come over the radio and turned to block the road in front of Brown.

 

 

He was not in the neighborhood because of the report of a robbery. He was leaving the sick call, happened upon them, and didn't even make the connection until they had already passed. He was not looking for the robbers...another car (or possibly two) was already en route for that purpose. That's the spin I was referring to.

[SKL]

WRONG, people have denied that police officers shoot young black males for no reason in this very thread more than once.

 

 

You aren't getting it. We aren't talking about average citizens or criminals. We're talking about THE POLICE. They are agents of the state. They are employed by our tax dollars. They are our representatives. Talking about police tactics and statistics is not AT ALL the same as comparing statistics for the general population. They are to be held to a higher standard than your average felon, I would HOPE. If using statistics to show how police officers in many cities target young black males, escalate situations and kill young black men at a significantly statistical rate is fanning the flames of hate, I don't even know what to say to you. It seems like the status quo is perfectly fine with you. You don't think the police can and should do better? You think because killer cops are a minority of all cops that we shouldn't talk about it? Is that what you are saying?

 

1.  To your first sentence, I must have missed those posts.  There are criminals and lunatics in every profession, and I think we all know that.

 

2.  To the rest - yeah, whatever.  You disagree and you are hoping that your condescending language is going to encourage others to see me as an idiot or the worst racist around.  I get it.

[Miss Peregrine]

Agreed. It is all cops not just white cops. In that area the police are overwhelmingly white but not in all areas. Some areas require that the police be residents of the area, which I think is a good idea.

Really? So an officer can be recognized at Home Depot while with his family by someone he arrested? So the criminals can follow him home?

 

It happened to us.

[weaver_67579]

Are you serious? Did you not actually look at the link I posted? You are responding as if I had been talking about the Wilson shooting. I wasn't. Go actually look at that link. Here I'll post it for you again:

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/10/listen_sc_cop_who_shot_man_while_reaching_for_his_wallet_tells_his_side.html

 

I was only talking in reference to the Brown shooting-that is what the post is about

 

[Slartibartfast]

Really? So an officer can be recognized at Home Depot while with his family by someone he arrested? So the criminals can follow him home?

 

It happened to us.

 

That can happen anywhere.

 

If they aren't a part of the community how are people supposed to trust them? How are people supposed to talk to them? 

 

I wouldn't want officers policing my area if they wouldn't even live as far as the closest Home Depot.

[Mrs Mungo]

Deleted bit to SKL, never mind, I'm wasting my time. You have zero interest in understanding my point.

 

 

 

I was only talking in reference to the Brown shooting-that is what the post is about

No, this thread is about police violence. Did you watch the video of the SC shooting that I posted? What is your explanation for that? Maybe you can explain to the people of color here what that man did wrong so that they don't get themselves shot.

[weaver_67579]

He was not in the neighborhood because of the report of a robbery. He was leaving the sick call, happened upon them, and didn't even make the connection until they had already passed. He was not looking for the robbers...another car (or possibly two) was already en route for that purpose. That's the spin I was referring to.

I said he drove to the area of the robbery. I don't think I stated that he was responding to the robbery. In fact in some post I did say that at the news conference they did say he asked them to get out of the street, drove off and then heard the descriptions on the radio-then backing up and blocking the road in front of Brown.

 

[MrsMommy]

Really? So an officer can be recognized at Home Depot while with his family by someone he arrested? So the criminals can follow him home?

 

It happened to us.

 

I am sorry that things like that happen, but I still think officers should live in the communities they serve. They have more motivation to be really invested in the place they call home, as opposed to the place where they happen to work. It also gets rid of the "us vs. them" mentality as far outsiders vs. locals go, even though racial issues would still exist.

[MrsMommy]

I said he drove to the area of the robbery. I don't think I stated that he was responding to the robbery. In fact in some post I did say that at the news conference they did say he asked them to get out of the street, drove off and then heard the descriptions on the radio-then backing up and blocking the road in front of Brown.

 

But the post that I responded to did state that he was in that neighborhood because the robbery call had gone out. That's the spin I was referring to, in that particular post, which is why I quoted it.

[Miss Peregrine]

I am sorry that things like that happen, but I still think officers should live in the communities they serve. They have more motivation to be really invested in the place they call home, as opposed to the place where they happen to work. It also gets rid of the "us vs. them" mentality as far outsiders vs. locals go, even though racial issues would still exist.

I understand that. I was responding to the assertion that it's a "good" idea. Its just an idea. Might work in some places but not all.

[SKL]

That can happen anywhere.

 

If they aren't a part of the community how are people supposed to trust them? How are people supposed to talk to them?

 

I can see the point of having cops be members of the community, but I can also see the point of having them from outside the community.  If they are in the community, this can affect their objectivity and even create temptations that wouldn't otherwise be so strong.

 

I don't know why there aren't more black cops in Ferguson.  Do the folks there look down upon kids who aspire to be cops?  Do they have educational barriers to being able to pass the tests?  I tend to doubt that it's because of racism in hiring.  I would think having majority black cops in a majority black community would improve relations and possibly outcomes.

 

[MrsMommy]

I understand that. I was responding to the assertion that it's a "good" idea. Its just an idea. Might work in some places but not all.

 

OK, let's look at it on broader terms. As long as the police are already acting like the military, let's compare them to the military. Would you want soldiers from another country as your primary defenders, instead of soldiers from your country? I wouldn't. What motivation would they really have to protect us? I see the police in the same way, just on a more local level. So I do think it's not just an idea, but a good idea.

[Slartibartfast]

And FWIW, I have worked at a convenience store chain, actually the same chain that was looted and burned during the first riot. They sell TONS of those little cigarillos. Someone having a box of them would be nothing of note since 80% of people around that age are buying those.

[zoobie]

That statement is out of context, and I think you know what I meant. The rioters and looters in this case are black. Or at least I haven't seen any pictures or videos of any white people being part of that.

 

I said I wasn't going to respond any further, but when I'm intentionally misquoted to make me sound like a racist, umm, yeah, I'm going to respond to that. That's what the MEDIA does for a living. It's sad when women (or mostly women) on a forum where everyone is presumed to be reasonably educated, and should know better, does the same thing.

How did I intentionally misquote you? I quoted your post in its entirety. It gives the impression that you feel the rioters and looters are somehow representative of the black community. Or that the black community is somehow responsible for the actions of every single black person. I don't see the few opportunistic criminals as associated with the community, no matter their race.

[Miss Peregrine]

OK, let's look at it on broader terms. As long as the police are already acting like the military, let's compare them to the military. Would you want soldiers from another country as your primary defenders, instead of soldiers from your country? I wouldn't. What motivation would they really have to protect us? I see the police in the same way, just on a more local level. So I do think it's not just an idea, but a good idea.

I don't agree that they are acting like the military so it doesn't compare to me.

 

ETA: So what's the motivation for our military to protect other countries?

[ErinE]

Regardless of how I feel about the Brown/Wilson outcome, I could get behind that legislation. It protects both citizens and law enforcement.

 

I'd rather they spend the money on body cameras than paramilitary gear. 

[BarbecueMom]

I am sorry that things like that happen, but I still think officers should live in the communities they serve. They have more motivation to be really invested in the place they call home, as opposed to the place where they happen to work. It also gets rid of the "us vs. them" mentality as far outsiders vs. locals go, even though racial issues would still exist.

St. Louis city still does this, I think, but it's much harder to implement in the county. Some smaller departments hire only or mostly part-time officers. Some have high turnover because they pay so little and are "stepping stones" to better paying departments. County officers can change precincts and live on the complete opposite side of the area than they work. Some are married to officers in different departments. Some work for two departments.

 

Smaller townships contract with St. Louis County to eliminate some of these problems, but it does create new ones.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have my doubts that Frontenac PD pays their officers well enough to live there.

 

ETA: I will say that when I was dispatching, even though I lived in both communities I worked for, I often lost sight of the fact that I was serving the community. Night after night of dealing with the criminal and the crazy, it's very easy to forget that you are there to help them, suspects and victims, and everyone you never hear from, not to be their judge. If departments could work on keeping this idea a priority, that would go a long way.

[Reflections]

Indeed, to my knowledge black officers are also disproportionately likely to shoot black civilians. There's a bigger problem here than the simple issue of the race of the officers involved (although nationwide, police departments are overwhelmingly white).

 

 

Exactly. The statistics I posted bear out this statement, if anyone actually clicked on the link and read the data/analysis.

 

Gently I say:  There is actually no accurate or reliable statistics on police shootings.

 

Bolding is mine.

Officials with the Justice Department keep no comprehensive database or record of police shootings, instead allowing the nation’s more than 17,000 law enforcement agencies to self-report officer-involved shootings as part of the FBI’s annual data on “justifiable homicides†by law enforcement.
That number – which only includes self-reported information from about 750 law enforcement agencies – hovers around 400 “justifiable homicides†by police officers each year. The DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks “arrest-related deaths.†But the department stopped releasing those numbers after 2009, because, like the FBI data, they were widely regarded as unreliable.

Here is the link to the article I quoted:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/

 

Here are some additional links on the subject:

 

http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/

 

http://jimfishertruecrime.blogspot.com/2012/01/police-involved-shootings-2011-annual.html

[unsinkable]

I don't agree that they are acting like the military so it doesn't compare to me.

 

ETA: So what's the motivation for our military to protect other countries?

I agree with you Miss P.

 

And I think it's funny how police shouldn't be like the military (no military weapons) but should be like the military (protect their own people.) Okaaaay.

[MrsMommy]

I don't agree that they are acting like the military so it doesn't compare to me.

 

ETA: So what's the motivation for our military to protect other countries?

 

Even if you don't agree that the police in Ferguson/St. Louis County is acting like the military (which I don't understand, after seeing the tanks, gear, and weapons that the police brandished this summer), I think the point is still valid. You still wouldn't want an outside force acting as your country's primary military, would you? There's a big difference between going into another country and offering support, and being the main military in a place you don't call home.

 

I also think that this militarization of police forces shows a fundamental confusion of vocation. The police are not the military, they are not trained to be the military, and they shouldn't be acting like it. The police have a totally different job, and if an officer is truly serving his vocation, he should want to leave the military stuff to the military. Which is why I also think the military is better suited to go in an support other countries...that's a basic part of their job; it shouldn't be the same for the police.

[Miss Peregrine]

Even if you don't agree that the police in Ferguson/St. Louis County is acting like the military (which I don't understand, after seeing the tanks, gear, and weapons that the police brandished this summer), I think the point is still valid. You still wouldn't want an outside force acting as your country's primary military, would you? There's a big difference between going into another country and offering support, and being the main military in a place you don't call home.

 

I also think that this militarization of police forces shows a fundamental confusion of vocation. The police are not the military, they are not trained to be the military, and they shouldn't be acting like it. The police have a totally different job, and if an officer is truly serving his vocation, he should want to leave the military stuff to the military. Which is why I also think the military is better suited to go in an support other countries...that's a basic part of their job; it shouldn't be the same for the police.

So no riot gear for. . .riots?

[MrsMommy]

So no riot gear for. . .riots?

 

This summer, the riot gear came out before there was trouble. Problem A. And I don't see tanks, and the level of weapons that they were using as riot gear. Those were military grade items being used by policemen who were, quite frankly, not really trained or prepared to use them, nor should they have been. Problem B.

 

Shields and such to protect the police are one thing...but the weapons that were being rather cavalierly pointed at innocent, peaceful protestors and members of the media have no place being used by the police department. If they wanted to have such things on the streets, they should have just brought the National Guard in from the outset and let them do their job.

[Miss Peregrine]

I don't see why being prepared for trouble is a problem. We'll just have to disagree.

[Catwoman]

This summer, the riot gear came out before there was trouble. Problem A. And I don't see tanks, and the level of weapons that they were using as riot gear. Those were military grade items being used by policemen who were, quite frankly, not really trained or prepared to use them, nor should they have been. Problem B.

 

Shields and such to protect the police are one thing...but the weapons that were being rather cavalierly pointed at innocent, peaceful protestors and members of the media have no place being used by the police department. If they wanted to have such things on the streets, they should have just brought the National Guard in from the outset and let them do their job.

Do we know that the police haven't been adequately trained to use the equipment? (Not being snarky -- I'm genuinely curious.)

[Mrs Mungo]

Do we know that the police haven't been adequately trained to use the equipment? (Not being snarky -- I'm genuinely curious.)

Did you see the video I posted last night on the de-escalation tactics used by the military in civilian crowd situations? Were such tactics used last night?

 

No, in fact police were tear gassing peaceful protestors and shooting them with projectiles.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/17/st-louis-police-chief-denies-teargas-rubber-bullets-ferguson

 

So, no, I wouldn't consider them adequately trained in the use of military equipment and the force that comes with it because they aren't being held to the same standards (standards which exist even in a war zone).

 

Let me ask you a question. Given the Michael Brown shooting and subsequent verdict, do you think the Ferguson PD has a bigger vested interest in keeping the peace or provoking violence?

[Catwoman]

Did you see the video I posted last night on the de-escalation tactics used by the military in civilian crowd situations? Were such tactics used last night?

 

No, in fact police were tear gassing peaceful protestors and shooting them with projectiles.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/17/st-louis-police-chief-denies-teargas-rubber-bullets-ferguson

 

Let me ask you a question. Given the Michael Brown shooting and subsequent verdict, do you think the Ferguson PD has a bigger vested interest in keeping the peace or provoking violence?

You seem to be getting awfully aggressive.

 

I asked a simple question in response to a statement made by MrsMommy, and I would still like to know the answer.

[MrsMommy]

Do we know that the police haven't been adequately trained to use the equipment? (Not being snarky -- I'm genuinely curious.)

 

Mrs.Mungo said it better than I could, so I'll just agree with her.

[Catwoman]

Mrs.Mungo said it better than I could, so I'll just agree with her.

But that doesn't answer my question. You stated that the police hadn't been trained in the use of their equipment. In my mind, it sounded like you were suggesting that the police department invested in a ton of expensive equipment and supplies, but the officers were never given any training on how to use them.

[Mrs Mungo]

But that doesn't answer my question. You stated that the police hadn't been trained in the use of their equipment. In my mind, it sounded like you were suggesting that the police department invested in a ton of expensive equipment and supplies, but the officers were never given any training on how to use them.

The evidence is in the results. The military has rules of engagement that include NOT being allowed to shoot unarmed enemies in a war zone, never mind civilians. The military has rules of engagement that requires them to use de-escalation tactics instead of provoking civilian protestors into violence. Those are the types of training that is being discussed. We're not talking about instructions on how to *drive* a tank, but under what circumstances one would bring a tank into a battle. I'm not trying to be aggressive. I'm trying to make myself clear.

 

ETA: If police forces are going to use military equipment, then they should receive military *tactical and strategic* training. Strategic thinking in the military is very different than tactical training. Strategic training is all about the big picture. So, in Ferguson the strategic thinker would be looking on how to win the hearts and minds of the community, how to avoid rioting and destruction, how to de-escalate the situation.

[MrsMommy]

But that doesn't answer my question. You stated that the police hadn't been trained in the use of their equipment. In my mind, it sounded like you were suggesting that the police department invested in a ton of expensive equipment and supplies, but the officers were never given any training on how to use them.

 

After everything that happened here in August, that's basically what came out in our local news...they had been stockpiling this equipment without really knowing how/when to use it. If you're asking me to post links to news articles, there's just no way I can sift back through all of the stuff out there. This has been our top headline in one way or another for the past three+ months, and there are just too many articles. Let me say this, though...the Ferguson P.D. didn't even know how to use the cameras they had that were just sitting dumped in an office...they were definitely not prepared to use something bigger than that.

[Miss Peregrine]

There's a case to be made that the law enforcement let Ferguson burn last night.

 

Maybe I'm just jaded, but what better way to get media and public focus off the Grand Jury decision, and onto 'those dreadful black rioters' ?

Oh, see I thought they were using too much force?

 

This is disgusting.

[MrsMommy]

There's a case to be made that the law enforcement let Ferguson burn last night.

 

Maybe I'm just jaded, but what better way to get media and public focus off the Grand Jury decision, and onto 'those dreadful black rioters' ?

 

It does seem like that, doesn't it? There are lots of accusations being thrown around as far as political motives for a lack of response. I don't know if we'll ever really know why there didn't seem to be a response, but I will say, the (very large) protest in south city last night was handled much, much better.

[Jennifer3141]

What I don't get it why it took the federal government WEEKS to respond to Katrina but they were all over Ferguson last night. Huh. :huh:

[MrsMommy]

Oh, see I thought they were using too much force?

 

This is disgusting.

 

I can only speak for myself, but the too much force I was referring to was what happened in the days after the shooting. When the police basically came out swinging before there had been any real protests.

 

Last night, there was definitely not much of a response. There was some tear gas, but nothing like what we saw this summer. Perhaps they learned from their mistakes.

[Catwoman]

The evidence is in the results. The military has rules of engagement that include NOT being allowed to shoot unarmed enemies, never mind civilians. The military has rules of engagement that requires them to use de-escalation tactics instead of provoking civilians protestors into violence. Those are the types of training that is being discussed. We're not talking about instructions on how to *drive* a tank, but under what circumstances one would bring a tank into a battle. I'm not trying to be aggressive. I'm trying to make myself clear.ETA: If police forces are going to use military equipment, then they should receive military *tactical and strategic* training. Strategic thinking in the military is very different than tactical training. Strategic training is all about the big picture. So, in Ferguson the strategic thinker would be looking on how to win the hearts and minds of the community, how to avoid rioting and destruction, how to de-escalate the situation.

After everything that happened here in August, that's basically what came out in our local news...they had been stockpiling this equipment without really knowing how/when to use it. If you're asking me to post links to news articles, there's just no way I can sift back through all of the stuff out there. This has been our top headline in one way or another for the past three+ months, and there are just too many articles. Let me say this, though...the Ferguson P.D. didn't even know how to use the cameras they had that were just sitting dumped in an office...they were definitely not prepared to use something bigger than that.

OK, thanks to both of you for the clarification -- I think I misinterpreted MrsMommy's original statement about it. There are so many stories flying around online and on TV that I thought I had missed something specific from today's news about the events of last night.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I don't really have anything constructive to add to this discussion. I am appalled by the lack of restraint the cops show these days (A woman with mental health problems was shot in her home by the police last week not far from my home and my hometown is reeling from the death of young man who was shot by the cops last month. He was unarmed and gunned down on his property by the police. Last week the DA stated that there will be no indictment of the officers.) Both of my parents were police officers in Los Angeles. My dad was on the force for 33 years and never shot someone with his service revolver. Not even once. He used hand to hand combat skills to disarm and subdue perpetrators and that is what he taught cadets to do. I am equally appalled at the media for their role in fanning the flames of anger and race. There used to be a professional field that I deeply admired, but it is dead and gone and journalistic integrity is definitely a thing of the past. I am saddened to see every negative interracial interaction become labeled automatically as racism. I am tired of the arrogance of people (who themselves belong to the body of "white privilege") taking every opportunity to educate others about the insidious realities of white privilege. As a person of mixed race, I don't want to hear such people bang the drums on and on about how awful their institutionalized position of power is. I don't want to hear them tell others what non-whites need or want. I don't want them walking before me carrying the flag of justice. Prejudice is not going to go away. No amount of protest will cleanse the human heart of prejudice, whether it's racial prejudice, religions prejudice, or economic prejudice. Can we not just speak and act peacefully toward one another, despite our prejudices? Can we not take this time in history as the opportunity to start here and now instead of getting hooked into personal attacks and name calling over the issue? Must the justification of our anger, righteously indignant or otherwise, be the means and the ends? If so, what will teach our children about making peace?

[Reflections]

The evidence is in the results. The military has rules of engagement that include NOT being allowed to shoot unarmed enemies in a war zone, never mind civilians. The military has rules of engagement that requires them to use de-escalation tactics instead of provoking civilian protestors into violence. Those are the types of training that is being discussed. We're not talking about instructions on how to *drive* a tank, but under what circumstances one would bring a tank into a battle. I'm not trying to be aggressive. I'm trying to make myself clear.

 

ETA: If police forces are going to use military equipment, then they should receive military *tactical and strategic* training. Strategic thinking in the military is very different than tactical training. Strategic training is all about the big picture. So, in Ferguson the strategic thinker would be looking on how to win the hearts and minds of the community, how to avoid rioting and destruction, how to de-escalate the situation.

 

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree.

 

The police are given the equipment for FREE and the Pentagon has no obligation to train them on its use.

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/14/the-pentagon-gave-nearly-half-a-billion-dollars-of-military-gear-to-local-law-enforcement-last-year/

 

http://www.stripes.com/how-and-why-local-police-departments-get-military-surplus-equipment-1.299570

[flyingiguana]

I think it is unfortunate that this was the case that drew so much attention to the very real problem of racism in police/community interactions, especially in certain areas. From all I have read, I think it's quite possible that the officer was justified in shooting him (though whether he still should have been indicted is a messy thing indeed). Thinking he was justified makes it easier to dismiss those who are trying to call attention to the problem. I know no one can pick and choose which scenario will capture our attention, but I still wish it wasn't this one.

 

I think this is often the case -- and because Brown was either culpable or at least not proven completely innocent makes it all too easy to ignore what a lot of the protests are really about.

 

[flyingiguana]

I don't really have anything constructive to add to this discussion.....

 

IDK -- that seemed pretty constructive to me.

 

It also is hard to watch a lot of people telling white people what they must be thinking.

 

Um, really?  Everyone's reading everyone else's minds now?

 

[Reflections]

So, in Ferguson the strategic thinker would be looking on how to win the hearts and minds of the community, how to avoid rioting and destruction, how to de-escalate the situation.

(Sorry to quote you AGAIN.  But it is your fault...you keep saying the good stuff)

 

This.  This is the conversation I want to have.  Not whether this horrible incident/crime/situation is raced based but whether or not police all over the country are over stepping their bounds and are, essentially, power hungry.  Are they causing more problems than they are fixing?  When did it start to go wrong.  Was there one spot in history we could point to?  What can be done to fix it?  Can it be fixed?  

 

African Americans are not the only race to be afraid/angry/upset/concerned about the police.

[Ausmumof3]

I don't know a lot about the situation. Dh occasionally watches police shows. The us based ones seem so much more aggressive than Aus ones. Maybe they are dealing with bigger issues, I don't know. I do know that your police force seem seriously scary, black or white.

[Slartibartfast]

IDK -- that seemed pretty constructive to me.

 

It also is hard to watch a lot of people telling white people what they must be thinking.

 

Um, really?  Everyone's reading everyone else's minds now?

 

 

Who is doing that?

 

I think different people said  that it was an issue with officers of different races and not about white cops.

 

However some people have posted some pretty alarming things that makes me hope they never end up on a jury, I don't know what color they are, this is the internet.

[Mrs Mungo]

(Sorry to quote you AGAIN.  But it is your fault...you keep saying the good stuff)

 

This.  This is the conversation I want to have.  Not whether this horrible incident/crime/situation is raced based but whether or not police all over the country are over stepping their bounds and are, essentially, power hungry.  Are they causing more problems than they are fixing?  When did it start to go wrong.  Was there one spot in history we could point to?  What can be done to fix it?  Can it be fixed?  

 

African Americans are not the only race to be afraid/angry/upset/concerned about the police.

I agree. I *wish* we could have this conversation, but people are too wrapped up in "hey, here's a white guy who got shot by the police" and "I got robbed by a black guy once."

 

:banghead: 

 

[flyingiguana]

Not meaning to fan the flames here -- but as a statistician, I feel I have to point out (again) that we don't really have the statistics to prove that the police shoot/arrest black people at proportionately higher rates than would be expected, given crime rates.

 

Because the only stats on crime we have (by race) are based on arrests.

 

My facebook page is exploding with people claiming blacks are targeted by police-- and that the proof of this is that arrest rates/shootings etc are higher for blacks.  But that does not prove targeting.  The alternative hypothesis that blacks are more likely to be arrested BECAUSE they intrinsically commit more crimes can't be teased out of that data.

 

All we can say is that blacks tend to be arrested more often based on their population numbers.

 

I think this is an important distinction, because without knowing WHY these arrests rates differ between races, there's really no way of knowing how best to address the problem.

 

I won't say this on facebook because I'll be accused of denying the experience of black people.  I'm not denying anything -- just saying we don't have appropriate data to say what a lot of people are saying.

 

BTW -- if there is such data, I'd like to be directed to it.
 

[flyingiguana]

Who is doing that?

 

I think different people said  that it was an issue with officers of different races and not about white cops.

 

However some people have posted some pretty alarming things that makes me hope they never end up on a jury, I don't know what color they are, this is the internet.

 

Tons of people (maybe not HERE, but elsewhere) are claiming they know how whites or blacks think based solely on the color of their skin.

 

I was responding to a lot of media/social network comments I'm seeing.  (My tone, eyeroll, and the people I was pointing at were probably not at all apparent -- sorry if anyone thought it was them.  It wasn't.)

 

My point was that the world would be a lot better place if people didn't assume they knew what everyone was thinking and what their experiences were.  (It's not only obnoxious, it tends to undermine whatever argument they thought they were making)

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Not meaning to fan the flames here -- but as a statistician, I feel I have to point out (again) that we don't really have the statistics to prove that the police shoot/arrest black people at proportionately higher rates than would be expected, given crime rates.

 

Because the only stats on crime we have (by race) are based on arrests.

 

My facebook page is exploding with people claiming blacks are targeted by police-- and that the proof of this is that arrest rates/shootings etc are higher for blacks.  But that does not prove targeting.  The alternative hypothesis that blacks are more likely to be arrested BECAUSE they intrinsically commit more crimes can't be teased out of that data.

 

All we can say is that blacks tend to be arrested more often based on their population numbers.

 

I think this is an important distinction, because without knowing WHY these arrests rates differ between races, there's really no way of knowing how best to address the problem.

 

I won't say this on facebook because I'll be accused of denying the experience of black people.  I'm not denying anything -- just saying we don't have appropriate data to say what a lot of people are saying.

 

BTW -- if there is such data, I'd like to be directed to it.

Just *one* crime in isolation:

 

http://www.aclu.org/billions-dollars-wasted-racially-biased-arrests

 

There are similar stats out there for other crime rates versus arrest rate, the difference in prison sentences for the same crimes, the difference in the ratio of how often young black men are shot by police. These are all factors, some of which have already been linked to in this thread.

 

ETA: Did you note the link to the story of the gun wielding drunk jaywalking white guy who wasn't shot by the cops?

[SKL]

It was deliberate, or they were incompetent. Either way, not very good policing.

 

 

Your qualifying knowledge on this subject matter is ...?

 

It sucks so bad to be a police officer when the whole freakin' world is all about hating them.  Meanwhile they continue to go out and do their dangerous, dirty, thankless jobs and their families continue to wonder whether they will come home at night.

 

I think hating on cops gets worse than racism at times.  I think now is one of those times.