Feeling like a hostage to my DS's emotions

[hornblower]

I'd have a look at Gordon Neufeld's material.

Especially the audio download Counterwill in Children on this page http://neufeldinstitute.com/products/audio

& Making Sense of Discipline DVD here http://neufeldinstitute.com/products/dvds

I have an explosive - like, really, really - explosive kid.

for that matter - I have my own issues with explosiveness.

A lot of these issues are rooted in autonomy and control & it takes a bit of time to figure out OUR responses.  One of the longest ongoing parenting meditations I've been having is 'Why do i react to this person's tantrums? what do i think about myself because my child behaves this way? How can I change my perception of what is going on here? How can they push my buttons so darned fast?'

Neufeld's approach is attachment based, it is NOT lax, it is some of the hardest stuff I've ever done.  His ideas about coming alongside and waiting it out are sometimes incredibly hard to implement. It's not about 'getting them to stop' v. giving in;  it's about helping them feel that feeling and being there for them.

Neufeld stuff is what YOU would work on.

For your child, I'd have him do some sort of self-awareness stuff like the MindUp program. Meditation & self-regulation. It's really something I wish I had done with my explosive child but I didn't understand it very well then. http://thehawnfoundation.org/

 

[Twolittleboys]

It's really unfair to suggest that consequences are not part of authoritative parenting. We only use logical consequences--if you mistreat others you can't be around them, if you misuse books, etc. you can't have them. I really do not think that is overly punitive. I have used authoritative parenting combined with gentle discipline and logical consequences, in different ways (see literature below) since my kids were born.

 

Your kids are gifted, so maybe they respond to patterns, explanations, etc. Maybe you have found a way to help them behave and understand without behavioral training. I know some kids respond to this. That's great.

 

But my kids are not gifted (at least not the moody child). She doesn't respond to explanations, warnings, etc. I have read every book from Connection Parenting to 1-2-3 Magic to the Happiest Kid on the Block to How to Talk to Adventures in Gentle Discipline to Parent Effectiveness Training (and more).

 

I'm sure I could read one more website, one more piece of advice that suggests that if only I'd listen, if only I'd explain, if only I were more empathetic... somehow, we'd get to school on time. If only I had better boundaries, were calmer, more consistent, more authoritative and less authoritarian, more this and less that. If only, if only.

 

If only my face didn't darken giving her that much-needed reaction when she acted out, so she would not get any feedback for negative behavior. If only my kid didn't learn how to abuse every pattern of behavior within a week so that we would end up going downhill even when I was literally reading the script from a highly acclaimed parenting book.

 

If only I were a better parent, my kid would be able to go out. It's my fault she melts down, and it's my fault that we have not found a solution.

 

I feel really bad about that. In fact I would say the guilt is a little crippling because I NEVER wanted to have a family life like this.

 

I will try that website. I will also work harder to get a counselor.

 

But I'm going to be honest: I have been working within the framework of authoritative, gentle, and assertive parenting with specific, firm, and 100% consistent consequences for eight years and it has done just about jack for my family. So I'm a little worn down right now in terms of feeling like I can somehow change.

 

I think the problem is that I'm expressive so you can tell on my face or in my voice when I'm unhappy (even when I try to hide it). That is not a good quality to have as a parent. Short of psychotropic drugs, I have not heard of a good way to stop myself from being like that. And I'm not willing to sacrifice that quite yet... I'll save the side-effects for the teen years.

 

I do think you are being too hard on yourself. Now I have a child that is on the more challenging side as well and I think maybe it is time to change tactics a bit. Not saying you should be inconsistent but maybe consistence is not the all important aspect. For most kids it may well be but it isn't that helpful with my son (and doesn't sound like it works great for your daughter). With my son I really try to avoid getting into a situation where I have to either be consistent or back down. I will be quite clear about what I expect/want him to do but try not to state an ultimatum. Sometimes I even kind of give in and often he will then do what he is supposed to do. So for example I might ask him/nag to do his homework and eventually I just leave the room. He will quite often then do what I had asked (either to make me happy or because he understands the necessitiy but just couldn't give in while the confrontation was going on). Other times I put our relationship above whatever disagreement we are having (is it really the end of the world if he doesn't pick up his room? Probably not)

 

I know this sounds like I am totally inconsistent and spoiling him but it has really helped both our relationship and his behaviour. The worst period we went through was when I decided to "crack down", be really consistent, etc. Things escalated to a point I really thought something was wrong! This was several years ago and things are so much better. Yes, I do ignore some stuff and sometimes give in but I am firm/consistent with major issues (going to school, brushing teeth etc.) and my son can tell the difference quite well.

 

It sounds like you are really struggling with this and so I wanted to share my experience even though I realize that it will sound completely wrong to some. It does go against regular parenting advice but does work for us.

[hornblower]

Twolittleboys - I think a lot of that makes sense in the Neufeld concept of counterwill. Consistency is not the most important thing, attachment is.

& I totally agree with you about not getting into ultimatum positions. I also sometimes think about it as 'letting the person save face', kwim?
This article about resistance & counterwill gives a good taste of Neufeld's ideas http://transformativeparenting.com/why-children-say-no/

[DesertBlossom]

Thank you all for your responses. Over the last few days I've been thinking a lot about all the suggestions made here and what my next move should be. 

 

One of the biggest helps for me was to get myself out of a punitive mindset ("You misbehaved and now you must atone for it through punishment or "consequences.")  I had to look at the meltdowns as a symptom of the disorder, not as willful disobedience.  Just like I wouldn't punish a child who was sluggish and pokey if they had anemia.  When I stopped thinking of it as "misbehavior" and a symptom of the disorder, I was able to temper my reaction.  This does not mean I allowed my child to be a terror to the family, but it helped me remain calm and deal with things.  It may have been a "time out" - not punitive, but an opportunity to cool off and get back into control.  I put myself in "time out" when I was losing it - modeling for him how to calm myself down.  Yes, I actually announced that I needed a time out.  You could use a different term if time out has a punitive connotation.  You could also work on time in when you see him struggling with frustration but before he gets out of control.  We actually practiced breathing techniques to call on when he started to enter the "red fog."  I found that the more positive attention I paid to this kid while working to control his environment at home, the better his behavior was.  We worked on a healthy lifestyle of proper diet (minimal additives, whole foods), exercise and good sleep habits. 

This is one thing I have thought a lot about especially in the last few days and something I discussed with DH the other night as well.  Since I had a lot of kids in a few short years, it can feel a lot like "crisis mode" most of the time and I feel like my job is put out fire after fire after fire. It has been especially frustrating to me that my oldest child is the one that gives me the most problems. (He should be the one I can depend on, you know?) This comment has really made me think about how, for the most part, I've done whatever I could to just stop inappropriate behaviors without actually finding out the root problems or helping my child(ren) work through them. For example, if kids are fighting over a toy, it goes to timeout if the issue is not easily resolved. (Sometimes it's impossible to figure out who started it or what really happened so the toy just goes away.)  

 

What I've realized (and probably should have realized sooner) is that this approach is not only not helping DS, it's making things worse.  Especially when it comes to correcting his behaviors. My other kids don't react this way, but he does. My go to tool for him has been "go to room to calm down and then come out" but it usually ends in a meltdown and things spiral out of control. Like I told DH the other night, DS is always going to be highly emotional and highly reactive and our "you're going to do what I said because I said so" approach is not helping him work through his feelings or find more appropriate ways to express himself. Anyway, your comment about looking at his behavior as a symptom has helped me to see this in a whole new light. But I feel like I don't know how or what to do to help him, especially when there's always a lot going on around me all the time.

 

I've also realized that my tendency to hand out consequences arbitrarily really sets him off.  In fact, I almost feel like that may be a significant part of the problem. For example, the other day he rushed through one page of handwriting. I knew and he knew that it wasn't his best work and I felt like I had to do something.  I knew if I erased it and had him do it over, he'd melt down.  So I asked him to do a second page instead. And while he did it, afterwards he went in to tantrum mode and started yelling about how I just want to give him more work.  Then the other night at the dinner table he was being especially silly. To the point it was just plain rude (and the other kids were starting to follow his lead) and I know he's capable of better behavior. Again, I go into this "crisis" mode to stop the behavior and tell him he's done, he needs to get down from the table and he's done with dinner. He had been warned about his behavior and even told he would get down from the table if he didn't settle down. Still, he went into meltdown mode and was flipping out about not getting to eat and refusing to go to room.  (He ended up cleaning his room, eating dinner later and having a long talk with dad, but not after a hysterical tantrum)  

 

Looking at these scenarios now, especially while looking at his behavior "as a symptom," I wonder if the "chronically inflexible" part of him just can't handle the consequences that I arbitrarily give him, regardless of whether he's been recently warned. As I said in a previous post, he does better if he's given more choices and responsibility. He has moments of suburb maturity, but lacks impulse control in many situations. (I joke with DH about how he would have been an excellent only child, b/c one on one he's a delight to be around, but he can be silly and obnoxious (or completely annoying) with his siblings to the point you can't snap him out of it)  I wonder if he would benefit from some sort of "contract" where he knew what the consequences for certain behaviors would be in advance and he agreed to them.  I hope that if he were allowed more input, that he would be more responsive to the consequences. Anyway, I'm not really sure what how to do that or what it would look like. But like in my previous examples about handwriting or homework, I don't think it's helpful to ignore those behaviors just to avoid his meltdown, but I feel like there has got to be a way to work through that some how that doesn't end in a meltdown.  (And no, I don't think the workload is too hard, for those that suggested it.)

 

On that same note, I feel like a more organized schedule of our day would help him when it comes to chores and things. Often I'll announce it's time to clean up and tell the kids where to go. Sometimes he's fine with it and sometimes it spawns a giant battle because he perceives his chore to be the hardest or other people aren't helping.  I think if all expectations were up front in order to minimize surprises, it might go over better.

 

I have gotten better about not feeling like every bad deed needed to be punished. For example, if the boys starting hitting I've learned that it's sometimes much more effective to help them resolve the issue that led to the hitting and leave it at that, than to feel like there needs to be a consequence for the hitting as well. 

 

 

I'd have a look at Gordon Neufeld's material.

Especially the audio download Counterwill in Children on this page http://neufeldinstitute.com/products/audio

& Making Sense of Discipline DVD here http://neufeldinstitute.com/products/dvds

I have an explosive - like, really, really - explosive kid.

for that matter - I have my own issues with explosiveness.

A lot of these issues are rooted in autonomy and control & it takes a bit of time to figure out OUR responses.  One of the longest ongoing parenting meditations I've been having is 'Why do i react to this person's tantrums? what do i think about myself because my child behaves this way? How can I change my perception of what is going on here? How can they push my buttons so darned fast?'

Neufeld's approach is attachment based, it is NOT lax, it is some of the hardest stuff I've ever done.  His ideas about coming alongside and waiting it out are sometimes incredibly hard to implement. It's not about 'getting them to stop' v. giving in;  it's about helping them feel that feeling and being there for them.

Neufeld stuff is what YOU would work on.

For your child, I'd have him do some sort of self-awareness stuff like the MindUp program. Meditation & self-regulation. It's really something I wish I had done with my explosive child but I didn't understand it very well then. http://thehawnfoundation.org/

 

I just read his book "Hold on to Your Kids" and it has made me think so much about the relationship that I have with him right now. I know that I have not responded to his emotional needs very well and that's affecting different aspects of our relationship. I would be really interested in his stuff and I'm going to go look it up. 

 

 

For those that have suggested it, I will continue to consider an evaluation for him. I don't believe he's on the autism spectrum at all. I do believe he's within the range of "normal" even though he's highly emotional and reactive. I continue to feel like there's something I'm not doing right-- in the sense that I'm handling his behavior poorly and reacting to it all wrong. And not only am I reacting poorly, I'm not helping him work through his emotions when my knee jerk reaction is to say something to the effect of "I don't care why you're doing that, just stop it."  People talk about finding their kids "currency" with regards to consequences and I've never been able to figure that out.  

 

I have read more parenting books than I can count and while I find very useful nuggets of information in each one, I still find myself slipping into crisis mode instead of implementing those strategies that would be more helpful in the long run. Things are getting better as my kids are getting older and more independent. (I tell ya, having my first 4 kids in 4 1/2 years was insane and mostly still is.)  But I am obviously still falling short of what I should and could be doing. As my mom would often say, "Motherhood is synonymous with guilt."  

 

There was a moment the other week that gave me hope that I hadn't completely ruined DS (yet). ;)  We were at the library and he was logged into a computer playing a game. He stood up briefly to help his brother when a 3 or 4 year old quickly slipped into seat. Had that been his own brother, DS might have flipped out and pushed him off. But he was so calm and patient with him, trying to convince him to go to a different computer. He finally told him "okay, you can watch me play" and then sat in the chair with him, nudging him over. The boy finally got up and walked away, but I was really proud of the way he had handled it calmly and patiently and told him so.   He is such a good kid and at times can be very mature and responsible. It's just those other moments when I'm at a loss as to what to do with him.

[DesertBlossom]

Just another tidbit... a pp asked if I wouldn't get help if my child had diabetes or some other illness. I thought that was ironic. I do have a child with Type 1 diabetes, diagnosed weeks after the birth of baby #3 when she was only 23 months. (those were some difficult times)  Immediately following her discharge from the hospital and our crash course on diabetes, there was some confusion on my part about who to call when I needed help. We hadn't yet seen her endocrinologist and would end up switching again shortly. But I found myself reading anything and everything I could about diabetes. I found a support forum online that was invaluable. I quickly learned how to make my own insulin adjustments based on her blood sugar trends. And unfortunately DD's first endocrinologist was less than helpful when I did go to him asking for advice.  Because of all this, I have never depended on the help of endocrinologist and I've done it all myself.  (I mean, I get help when I need it and will take suggestions when offered and she sees an endo regularly, but I'm definitely a DIYer)  I look back and realize that while I should have had more help in those early days, I also learned a lot in a very short amount of time because I had to.

 

In many aspects of my life, I tend to say "I'll figure this out by myself thankyouverymuch" when I encounter a problem. Which I realize can be a good and a bad thing. I know there's a problem with how I'm handling DS's behaviors. I know there must be solutions out there somewhere-- something I haven't tried or read about yet. Because I do feel like part of this is MY problem, I feel like it's even that much more MY responsibility to figure it out. Even just asking for help on this forum has been very embarrassing and humbling.  And while I know that there are times that a professional is helpful and necessary (and I am open to that) I still feel like this something that I can tackle on my own... if I could just figure out what to do and how. 

 

My current plan is going to be to put together a detailed schedule of events and responsibilities so there is more structure and fewer surprises for DS. I am currently re-reading The Explosive Child and I want to dig into that stuff by Gordon Neufeld.  And while it pains me to admit it, I should find some self-help info for anger management. I know that his behavior should not affect me the way it does. It shouldn't make me so angry in response. I know it probably stems from the fact that I feel so helpless. I try to remember that he's got his own free will and that his behavior is not (necessarily) a reflection of my parenting, but it's frustrating.  (And I feel inclined to say, in defense of myself, that I'm not normally an angry or explosive person. DH and I rarely fight and if we do it's a silent sulking until we talk it out. We never yell. I'm not a yeller.... until I don't know what to do with DS, apparently.)

 

Back in the day I think I assumed parenting was all about babies and changing diapers and 2am feedings and cuddling and cooing. I ROCK the baby stage. I love babies. Even at 2am. But the challenges that come with "big kids" that can talk (back) and do things I sure as heck didn't teach them has left me feeling totally unprepared and inadequate. Sheesh.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Thank you all for your responses. Over the last few days I've been thinking a lot about all the suggestions made here and what my next move should be. 

 

This is one thing I have thought a lot about especially in the last few days and something I discussed with DH the other night as well.  Since I had a lot of kids in a few short years, it can feel a lot like "crisis mode" most of the time and I feel like my job is put out fire after fire after fire. It has been especially frustrating to me that my oldest child is the one that gives me the most problems. (He should be the one I can depend on, you know?) This comment has really made me think about how, for the most part, I've done whatever I could to just stop inappropriate behaviors without actually finding out the root problems or helping my child(ren) work through them. For example, if kids are fighting over a toy, it goes to timeout if the issue is not easily resolved. (Sometimes it's impossible to figure out who started it or what really happened so the toy just goes away.)  

 

What I've realized (and probably should have realized sooner) is that this approach is not only not helping DS, it's making things worse.  Especially when it comes to correcting his behaviors. My other kids don't react this way, but he does. My go to tool for him has been "go to room to calm down and then come out" but it usually ends in a meltdown and things spiral out of control. Like I told DH the other night, DS is always going to be highly emotional and highly reactive and our "you're going to do what I said because I said so" approach is not helping him work through his feelings or find more appropriate ways to express himself. Anyway, your comment about looking at his behavior as a symptom has helped me to see this in a whole new light. But I feel like I don't know how or what to do to help him, especially when there's always a lot going on around me all the time.

 

I've also realized that my tendency to hand out consequences arbitrarily really sets him off.  In fact, I almost feel like that may be a significant part of the problem. For example, the other day he rushed through one page of handwriting. I knew and he knew that it wasn't his best work and I felt like I had to do something.  I knew if I erased it and had him do it over, he'd melt down.  So I asked him to do a second page instead. And while he did it, afterwards he went in to tantrum mode and started yelling about how I just want to give him more work.  Then the other night at the dinner table he was being especially silly. To the point it was just plain rude (and the other kids were starting to follow his lead) and I know he's capable of better behavior. Again, I go into this "crisis" mode to stop the behavior and tell him he's done, he needs to get down from the table and he's done with dinner. He had been warned about his behavior and even told he would get down from the table if he didn't settle down. Still, he went into meltdown mode and was flipping out about not getting to eat and refusing to go to room.  (He ended up cleaning his room, eating dinner later and having a long talk with dad, but not after a hysterical tantrum)  

 

Looking at these scenarios now, especially while looking at his behavior "as a symptom," I wonder if the "chronically inflexible" part of him just can't handle the consequences that I arbitrarily give him, regardless of whether he's been recently warned. As I said in a previous post, he does better if he's given more choices and responsibility. He has moments of suburb maturity, but lacks impulse control in many situations. (I joke with DH about how he would have been an excellent only child, b/c one on one he's a delight to be around, but he can be silly and obnoxious (or completely annoying) with his siblings to the point you can't snap him out of it)  I wonder if he would benefit from some sort of "contract" where he knew what the consequences for certain behaviors would be in advance and he agreed to them.  I hope that if he were allowed more input, that he would be more responsive to the consequences. Anyway, I'm not really sure what how to do that or what it would look like. But like in my previous examples about handwriting or homework, I don't think it's helpful to ignore those behaviors just to avoid his meltdown, but I feel like there has got to be a way to work through that some how that doesn't end in a meltdown.  (And no, I don't think the workload is too hard, for those that suggested it.)

 

 

 

I have gotten better about not feeling like every bad deed needed to be punished. For example, if the boys starting hitting I've learned that it's sometimes much more effective to help them resolve the issue that led to the hitting and leave it at that, than to feel like there needs to be a consequence for the hitting as well. 

 

 

I just read his book "Hold on to Your Kids" and it has made me think so much about the relationship that I have with him right now. I know that I have not responded to his emotional needs very well and that's affecting different aspects of our relationship. I would be really interested in his stuff and I'm going to go look it up. 

 

 

For those that have suggested it, I will continue to consider an evaluation for him. I don't believe he's on the autism spectrum at all. I do believe he's within the range of "normal" even though he's highly emotional and reactive. I continue to feel like there's something I'm not doing right-- in the sense that I'm handling his behavior poorly and reacting to it all wrong. And not only am I reacting poorly, I'm not helping him work through his emotions when my knee jerk reaction is to say something to the effect of "I don't care why you're doing that, just stop it."  People talk about finding their kids "currency" with regards to consequences and I've never been able to figure that out.  

 

I have read more parenting books than I can count and while I find very useful nuggets of information in each one, I still find myself slipping into crisis mode instead of implementing those strategies that would be more helpful in the long run. Things are getting better as my kids are getting older and more independent. (I tell ya, having my first 4 kids in 4 1/2 years was insane and mostly still is.)  But I am obviously still falling short of what I should and could be doing. As my mom would often say, "Motherhood is synonymous with guilt."  

 

There was a moment the other week that gave me hope that I hadn't completely ruined DS (yet). ;)  We were at the library and he was logged into a computer playing a game. He stood up briefly to help his brother when a 3 or 4 year old quickly slipped into seat. Had that been his own brother, DS might have flipped out and pushed him off. But he was so calm and patient with him, trying to convince him to go to a different computer. He finally told him "okay, you can watch me play" and then sat in the chair with him, nudging him over. The boy finally got up and walked away, but I was really proud of the way he had handled it calmly and patiently and told him so.   He is such a good kid and at times can be very mature and responsible. It's just those other moments when I'm at a loss as to what to do with him

 

Parenting an explosive child is definitely challenging.  I tell my "difficult" child that he made me grow so much as a parent and as a human being.  A couple more thoughts:

 

1. It is a marathon, not a race.  The goal is not perfect behavior tomorrow, but improvement over the long haul.  Some kids need more.  Many people think that means more punishment, correction, etc.  But that can also mean more positive attention and more teaching (not hoping they learn from punishment, but teaching what you should do instead.)  Focusing on only one side of the equation hurts these kids the most because their life becomes a series of unpleasant interactions and failures.
2. Pick your battles.  Is that handwriting page really that important?  Is this a hill to die on?  In the long run, how much will this matter?  Save the battles for what is really important.  Like I said in #1, it is a marathon and you want to save your energy for the bigger stuff.  You may think that particular assignment is not "hard", but it may be taxing for this particular child at that particular moment. 
3. Make the consequence fit the situation, not your level of frustration with the situation.  Erasing a page of poorly done handwriting just sounds spiteful.  Kind of how, when I didn't do a good job straightening my closet or dressers at age 8,  my mom would take everything out of them and make me start over.  Instead of gently teaching me how to do the job as she wanted it, she just shoved it in my face what a terrible kid I was.  I never did learn to be as neat enough for her, but I did learn to absolutely HATE housework.  Making him do another page instead is probably a step in the right direction, but perhaps it should not be immediate.  Sending a child to their room for being silly (even if annoying) is more like killing a gnat with a canon.  Perhaps the child really could not settle down without assistance.  Calmly taking the child away from the table to gently ask if that behavior is appropriate and then asking what the child needs to behave more appropriately can go a long way toward improving the behavior.  This is avoids the shame and subsequent acting out.  I totally get being in crisis mode and just reacting.  But, if you continue to do that, you will get the same results. 
4. Give the child a chance to save face.  Your child knows that he is difficult.  What your child does not know is how he is great, how he is loved.  Every time you give your child the chance to save face, you diffuse the situation.  Use misbehavior (and good behavior) as teaching moments, not punitive moments.  Ask questions in a sincere manner, not scolding.  "Do you think this (work, behavior) is appropriate?  or Is this your best effort?  Why or why not?"  "How do you think we can make this better?  or What can you do instead?"  The tone makes a HUGE difference.  It moves from punishment to problem solving.
5. Not every situation needs a direct confrontation.  Sometimes the best way to handle something is to do an end run.  When you hear a conflict in the making, asking a child to come help you with something good (like getting snack together) can help nip something in the bud before things get heated. In some situations, it is controlling the environment to avoid triggers.  This is not always possible, obviously, but it can reduce the stress load on your child while you work on figuring out what exactly is going on here and how to treat that. 
6. Try standing your child's shoes seeing things from their point of view, not how you think they SHOULD view things.  This can help with compassion, which is so hard with kids that push our buttons, but is so necessary.  Their sense of fairness is not always the same as ours.  When a child complains, ask questions rather than tell them how they are wrong.  They may have a legitimate complaint.  Or they may just need to be heard.  "Yes, I can see how you think that is unfair.  That must be so frustrating."  Do we always need to correct their way of thinking?  Can we extend grace and understanding they they are children - works in progress? 
7. I don't know your kid, but I do not believe that level of explosiveness you describe is developmentally appropriate and do believe that an evaluation is warranted.  There could be any number of underlying issues that are present.  Autism is not the only thing.  My child is very intelligent and that intelligence was masking some of his issues. My dh was surprised at many of the things that were found after testing.  Not getting him the help he needed would have held him back.  Just like it is inappropriate to withhold glasses from a kid who is nearsighted, it is inappropriate to not treat other issues that get in the way of learning and dealing with the world. 
8. Can you get a break from the stress?  When parents are stressed, they tend to go back to the knee-jerk reaction to things rather than adopt new attitudes toward this task. 

[konglish]

You have gotten a lot of advice, which is wonderful and also overwhelming, but I thought I would give my 2 cents as a mental health professional (working with adults, not kids).  The things that stand out to me in your description of your son are his 1) inflexibility/rigidity (in his thinking, his obsession with fairness, his inability to adapt) and 2) his explosiveness/meltdowns.  It does seem to me that these are outside the normal range, even for difficult children, but an in-person assessment with a professional would be needed to confirm this.  I would prioritize finding the right professional (mental health/developmental) for an evaluation.  I liked the suggestion of calling a children's hospital, or even the regional center, or posting on a local homeschooling forum to see if anyone could recommend someone.  I would hold off on reading books or trying to make too many changes on your own.  You have tried that and it hasn't been sufficient.  Use your energy to find professional help, to find out WHY your son is acting that way.  Then together you can work on a treatment plan going forward.  A good professional can educate you on how to help you son and provide emotional support for the difficult journey.

 

Also, if you would like to see a good example of what rigidity and tantrums look like in a teenager, you can watch the most recent episode of the tv show Parenthood ("These Are the Times We Live In" http://www.nbc.com/parenthood/episodes).  The teenager Max has Asperger's syndome.  He is expecting his cousin Amber to take him and his toddler sister to see Alcatraz, but the sister hides the car keys, and they end up missing the trip.  Max is completely furious, unable to empathize with the strain Amber is under, is kind of verbally abusive to her, and completely melts down.  

 

Most of all, hugs.  It is hard to be a mama.  One of my children had some significant health issues last year and it was so hard.  Hard to know what to do, hard to agree on decisions about what to do with my husband, hard to handle the complaining, hard to handle how it was affecting the other child...just everything.  I felt like I was failing my child, and sometimes in hindsight I would realize something I could have done differently/better.  But that is how it is.  Do your best, and be gracious to both your child and yourself. 

[Storygirl]

I had four children in under four years (in our case, through adoption), and I think that might be an important point in the midst of the rest of your posts. I was exhausted for so long from not sleeping through the night. And when they were all toddlers/preschoolers, it seemed to take 100% of my time to just to teach them everything -- potty training, toy sharing, table behavior, how to get dressed, how to take care of their toys and books, how to get along with siblings, on and on and on. It was exhausting as well. Add a challenging child (or two) to the mix, and I ended up feeling like a drill sergeant, always correcting, always scolding, always trying so hard to keep everyone in line and everything running smoothly. I am kind of a quiet person, and having to stay on top of things all the time and be the disciplinarian so many hours of the day took a toll.  When I finally had a peaceful moment, I would take a deep breath and have a few quiet moments to myself, which was definitely much needed. But what I sometimes neglected to do was to take those peaceful moments and spend them having fun with the kids and building a positive relationship with them. So they were getting a big dose of the disciplinarian side of me, but only a small dose of the fun-loving and silly side of me. I wasn't having much fun. I still struggle with this, but I'm trying to be more aware of how my parenting style impacts my relationship with my kids.

 

This might not be what things are like for you at all, but I thought I'd bring it up as a possibility. Do you think it might help if you carve out some time to spend one on one with your son, doing something that he enjoys, showing him that you enjoy his company? If he feels misunderstood and overwhelmed, it might make a difference. I still try to work on these things, because I tend to fall into instructor mode, keeping everyone in line, instead of in mom mode, building relationships. I've learned a lot over the past year from reading about other parenting styles, and I am not in any way saying that I am doing great at this now, but I'm taking some little steps toward making the relationships with my children more important than the rules. It's hard for me, but I think it's important.

 

We also, by the way, took my son to a psychologist, had him evaluated by a neuropsych, and placed him on medication for ADHD. I'm not saying that changing a parenting approach will fix all things. It's part of the package of what we've been doing to try to turn things around here. But it's the hardest part, because I have to work on changing myself.

 

Again, this might not apply to your situation at all, but if it does, I hope my thoughts help a little.

 

 

[DesertBlossom]

 

Parenting an explosive child is definitely challenging.  I tell my "difficult" child that he made me grow so much as a parent and as a human being.  A couple more thoughts:

 

1. It is a marathon, not a race.  The goal is not perfect behavior tomorrow, but improvement over the long haul.  Some kids need more.  Many people think that means more punishment, correction, etc.  But that can also mean more positive attention and more teaching (not hoping they learn from punishment, but teaching what you should do instead.)  Focusing on only one side of the equation hurts these kids the most because their life becomes a series of unpleasant interactions and failures.
2. Pick your battles.  Is that handwriting page really that important?  Is this a hill to die on?  In the long run, how much will this matter?  Save the battles for what is really important.  Like I said in #1, it is a marathon and you want to save your energy for the bigger stuff.  You may think that particular assignment is not "hard", but it may be taxing for this particular child at that particular moment. 
3. Make the consequence fit the situation, not your level of frustration with the situation.  Erasing a page of poorly done handwriting just sounds spiteful.  Kind of how, when I didn't do a good job straightening my closet or dressers at age 8,  my mom would take everything out of them and make me start over.  Instead of gently teaching me how to do the job as she wanted it, she just shoved it in my face what a terrible kid I was.  I never did learn to be as neat enough for her, but I did learn to absolutely HATE housework.  Making him do another page instead is probably a step in the right direction, but perhaps it should not be immediate.  Sending a child to their room for being silly (even if annoying) is more like killing a gnat with a canon.  Perhaps the child really could not settle down without assistance.  Calmly taking the child away from the table to gently ask if that behavior is appropriate and then asking what the child needs to behave more appropriately can go a long way toward improving the behavior.  This is avoids the shame and subsequent acting out.  I totally get being in crisis mode and just reacting.  But, if you continue to do that, you will get the same results. 
4. Give the child a chance to save face.  Your child knows that he is difficult.  What your child does not know is how he is great, how he is loved.  Every time you give your child the chance to save face, you diffuse the situation.  Use misbehavior (and good behavior) as teaching moments, not punitive moments.  Ask questions in a sincere manner, not scolding.  "Do you think this (work, behavior) is appropriate?  or Is this your best effort?  Why or why not?"  "How do you think we can make this better?  or What can you do instead?"  The tone makes a HUGE difference.  It moves from punishment to problem solving.
5. Not every situation needs a direct confrontation.  Sometimes the best way to handle something is to do an end run.  When you hear a conflict in the making, asking a child to come help you with something good (like getting snack together) can help nip something in the bud before things get heated. In some situations, it is controlling the environment to avoid triggers.  This is not always possible, obviously, but it can reduce the stress load on your child while you work on figuring out what exactly is going on here and how to treat that. 
6. Try standing your child's shoes seeing things from their point of view, not how you think they SHOULD view things.  This can help with compassion, which is so hard with kids that push our buttons, but is so necessary.  Their sense of fairness is not always the same as ours.  When a child complains, ask questions rather than tell them how they are wrong.  They may have a legitimate complaint.  Or they may just need to be heard.  "Yes, I can see how you think that is unfair.  That must be so frustrating."  Do we always need to correct their way of thinking?  Can we extend grace and understanding they they are children - works in progress? 
7. I don't know your kid, but I do not believe that level of explosiveness you describe is developmentally appropriate and do believe that an evaluation is warranted.  There could be any number of underlying issues that are present.  Autism is not the only thing.  My child is very intelligent and that intelligence was masking some of his issues. My dh was surprised at many of the things that were found after testing.  Not getting him the help he needed would have held him back.  Just like it is inappropriate to withhold glasses from a kid who is nearsighted, it is inappropriate to not treat other issues that get in the way of learning and dealing with the world. 
8. Can you get a break from the stress?  When parents are stressed, they tend to go back to the knee-jerk reaction to things rather than adopt new attitudes toward this task. 

 

I sincerely appreciate all of this.  It's helped me to look at things differently with those couple scenarios I gave as examples.  I can see the spitefulness is making a child completely redo a closet or chest of drawers that they didn't know how to do in the first place. I wouldn't intend for a handwriting page do-over to be spiteful, especially if I thought or knew it was something the child was capable of but just didn't want to do. Now that you point it out, I can see how it would come across as spiteful to the child. As for the silliness at the table, I can see now how the consequence was an over-reaction. My struggle (and it is what it is) is that taking him away from the table is going to give the 18 mo time to crawl on the table and starting digging her hands into the food while the other kids erupt into chaos. Sending him away seemed like the easiest way to handle the situation, until it wasn't. I'm not trying to make excuses for myself, because I know I should be doing things better, But it's hard and complicated. Honestly, sometimes I'd like to have my own personal "supernanny" following me around giving me insight into how I respond to these parenting moments because the noise level and my own stress often clouds my judgement. ;) 

 

 

 

You have gotten a lot of advice, which is wonderful and also overwhelming, but I thought I would give my 2 cents as a mental health professional (working with adults, not kids).  The things that stand out to me in your description of your son are his 1) inflexibility/rigidity (in his thinking, his obsession with fairness, his inability to adapt) and 2) his explosiveness/meltdowns.  It does seem to me that these are outside the normal range, even for difficult children, but an in-person assessment with a professional would be needed to confirm this.  I would prioritize finding the right professional (mental health/developmental) for an evaluation.  I liked the suggestion of calling a children's hospital, or even the regional center, or posting on a local homeschooling forum to see if anyone could recommend someone.  I would hold off on reading books or trying to make too many changes on your own.  You have tried that and it hasn't been sufficient.  Use your energy to find professional help, to find out WHY your son is acting that way.  Then together you can work on a treatment plan going forward.  A good professional can educate you on how to help you son and provide emotional support for the difficult journey.

 

Also, if you would like to see a good example of what rigidity and tantrums look like in a teenager, you can watch the most recent episode of the tv show Parenthood ("These Are the Times We Live In" http://www.nbc.com/parenthood/episodes).  The teenager Max has Asperger's syndome.  He is expecting his cousin Amber to take him and his toddler sister to see Alcatraz, but the sister hides the car keys, and they end up missing the trip.  Max is completely furious, unable to empathize with the strain Amber is under, is kind of verbally abusive to her, and completely melts down.  

 

Most of all, hugs.  It is hard to be a mama.  One of my children had some significant health issues last year and it was so hard.  Hard to know what to do, hard to agree on decisions about what to do with my husband, hard to handle the complaining, hard to handle how it was affecting the other child...just everything.  I felt like I was failing my child, and sometimes in hindsight I would realize something I could have done differently/better.  But that is how it is.  Do your best, and be gracious to both your child and yourself. 

 

My OP was written after several especially intense outbursts, which aren't common for DS.  I mean, he's always highly emotional, but that level of intensity is rare. This is a stressful time in general as DH has been working 60-70 hour work weeks which leaves me without a break as well. And even just after writing my OP, I've reflected a lot on how my own behavior escalated those incidents. Things have been better since I wrote the OP, primarily in the sense that I'm paying attention to how what I'm doing affects the situation and DS's behavior. I was feeling hopeless and lost. I feel much better now. The advice here has been especially helpful. I meant to talk to my aunt, who is a counselor with LDS social services, when I saw her the other day. I have also thought about getting in touch with a family friend who is also a family counselor for his recommendations. I will go forward with something... it's just going to have to feel right.

[Annie Anne]

I

Apparently, I can't undo that last quote, but the question is the same, about how specifically a professional can help.  I've just always looked at this as something I needed to figure out and solve and shifting that way of thinking is going to require some more information.

 

You are coming here for insight and ideas. Can you consider a professional as someone to consult for insight and ideas?

 

[fairfarmhand]

"

If only I had better boundaries, were calmer, more consistent, more authoritative and less authoritarian, more this and less that. If only, if only.

 

If only my face didn't darken giving her that much-needed reaction when she acted out, so she would not get any feedback for negative behavior. If only my kid didn't learn how to abuse every pattern of behavior within a week so that we would end up going downhill even when I was literally reading the script from a highly acclaimed parenting book.

 

If only I were a better parent, my kid would be able to go out. It's my fault she melts down, and it's my fault that we have not found a solution.

 

I feel really bad about that. In fact I would say the guilt is a little crippling because I NEVER wanted to have a family life like this.

 

I will try that website. I will also work harder to get a counselor.

 

But I'm going to be honest: I have been working within the framework of authoritative, gentle, and assertive parenting with specific, firm, and 100% consistent consequences for eight years and it has done just about jack for my family. So I'm a little worn down right now in terms of feeling like I can somehow change.

 

I think the problem is that I'm expressive so you can tell on my face or in my voice when I'm unhappy (even when I try to hide it). That is not a good quality to have as a parent. Short of psychotropic drugs, I have not heard of a good way to stop myself from being like that. And I'm not willing to sacrifice that quite yet... I'll save the side-effects for the teen years."

 

Stop iffing.

 

Honestly, it is hard, but this child is not a reflection of YOU. You've given into the classic blunder of "I can make this child be who he/she ought to be. If they're rotten it's all my fault because I'm a bad mother."

 

(seriously, that is the faulty mind set that we all have to overcome. We're led to believe that great wonderful kids are great and wonderful because their mama's a great and wonderful. Nope. Some kids are easy, some kids are hard. My kid is great for the rest of the world and exceedingly hard for her dad and I. That's just the way she is. I honestly believe that Jesus himself could be her parent and she'd still be a bear!)

 

So, having been there and done that with my dd so many times,

 

Your dd is probably often reacting to you taking her behavior personally. Step back and pretend that she's someone else's kid. How would you handle things? Step away from the "I am in charge and you will do what I say" mentality and cross the line to get on her team. IF shes' piddling around in cleaning her room, at 9 or 10, I wish I'd walked over to her and said, "I'd love to go do x with you today. How can I help you get started? I don't want to clean it for you, because I have my own cleaning to do, but  I'd love to help you do 3 things to get going on the mess."

 

Thank you all for your responses. Over the last few days I've been thinking a lot about all the suggestions made here and what my next move should be. 

 

This is one thing I have thought a lot about especially in the last few days and something I discussed with DH the other night as well.  Since I had a lot of kids in a few short years, it can feel a lot like "crisis mode" most of the time and I feel like my job is put out fire after fire after fire. It has been especially frustrating to me that my oldest child is the one that gives me the most problems. (He should be the one I can depend on, you know?) This comment has really made me think about how, for the most part, I've done whatever I could to just stop inappropriate behaviors without actually finding out the root problems or helping my child(ren) work through them. For example, if kids are fighting over a toy, it goes to timeout if the issue is not easily resolved. (Sometimes it's impossible to figure out who started it or what really happened so the toy just goes away.)  

 

I know. I was there with my own oldest dd. It was constantly crisis mode because there was always an infant, toddler or pregnancy on the horizon. One reason I quit having children was because she seriously needed more attention than I could give her, more parenting, than I could provide when I was pregnant, nursing, or chasing toddlers.

 

What I've realized (and probably should have realized sooner) is that this approach is not only not helping DS, it's making things worse.  Especially when it comes to correcting his behaviors. My other kids don't react this way, but he does. My go to tool for him has been "go to room to calm down and then come out" but it usually ends in a meltdown and things spiral out of control. Like I told DH the other night, DS is always going to be highly emotional and highly reactive and our "you're going to do what I said because I said so" approach is not helping him work through his feelings or find more appropriate ways to express himself. Anyway, your comment about looking at his behavior as a symptom has helped me to see this in a whole new light. But I feel like I don't know how or what to do to help him, especially when there's always a lot going on around me all the time.

 

You are exactly right. With many kids, you can get away with short-sighted disciplinary techniques, like taking away the toy that's causing the conflict, but with intense explosive kids, you can't. You must work through each scenario or they are left with not only resentment at siblings, but resentment toward you as a parent.

 

I've also realized that my tendency to hand out consequences arbitrarily really sets him off.  In fact, I almost feel like that may be a significant part of the problem. For example, the other day he rushed through one page of handwriting. I knew and he knew that it wasn't his best work and I felt like I had to do something.  I knew if I erased it and had him do it over, he'd melt down.  So I asked him to do a second page instead. And while he did it, afterwards he went in to tantrum mode and started yelling about how I just want to give him more work.  Then the other night at the dinner table he was being especially silly. To the point it was just plain rude (and the other kids were starting to follow his lead) and I know he's capable of better behavior. Again, I go into this "crisis" mode to stop the behavior and tell him he's done, he needs to get down from the table and he's done with dinner. He had been warned about his behavior and even told he would get down from the table if he didn't settle down. Still, he went into meltdown mode and was flipping out about not getting to eat and refusing to go to room.  (He ended up cleaning his room, eating dinner later and having a long talk with dad, but not after a hysterical tantrum)  

 

I've learned that warnings don't really do well for my kid. Especially when she was younger. It went better when I approached her with a sense of humor as a peer. With a smile. With a sense of fun intact, kind of asking her "Hey, pal, it's been fun, but the time's come to cut it out. "

 

Looking at these scenarios now, especially while looking at his behavior "as a symptom," I wonder if the "chronically inflexible" part of him just can't handle the consequences that I arbitrarily give him, regardless of whether he's been recently warned. As I said in a previous post, he does better if he's given more choices and responsibility. He has moments of suburb maturity, but lacks impulse control in many situations. (I joke with DH about how he would have been an excellent only child, b/c one on one he's a delight to be around, but he can be silly and obnoxious (or completely annoying) with his siblings to the point you can't snap him out of it)  I wonder if he would benefit from some sort of "contract" where he knew what the consequences for certain behaviors would be in advance and he agreed to them.  I hope that if he were allowed more input, that he would be more responsive to the consequences. Anyway, I'm not really sure what how to do that or what it would look like. But like in my previous examples about handwriting or homework, I don't think it's helpful to ignore those behaviors just to avoid his meltdown, but I feel like there has got to be a way to work through that some how that doesn't end in a meltdown.  (And no, I don't think the workload is too hard, for those that suggested it.)

 

We did have success with a schooling contract. I think I posted about it on my blog, if you're interested.

 

On that same note, I feel like a more organized schedule of our day would help him when it comes to chores and things. Often I'll announce it's time to clean up and tell the kids where to go. Sometimes he's fine with it and sometimes it spawns a giant battle because he perceives his chore to be the hardest or other people aren't helping.  I think if all expectations were up front in order to minimize surprises, it might go over better.

 

Yup. When I can tell my dd at the beginning of the week, "Grass needs to be cut by x day, anfd rain's in the forecast." She does SO much better.

 

I have gotten better about not feeling like every bad deed needed to be punished. For example, if the boys starting hitting I've learned that it's sometimes much more effective to help them resolve the issue that led to the hitting and leave it at that, than to feel like there needs to be a consequence for the hitting as well. 

 

BINGO!

I just read his book "Hold on to Your Kids" and it has made me think so much about the relationship that I have with him right now. I know that I have not responded to his emotional needs very well and that's affecting different aspects of our relationship. I would be really interested in his stuff and I'm going to go look it up. 

 

 

For those that have suggested it, I will continue to consider an evaluation for him. I don't believe he's on the autism spectrum at all. I do believe he's within the range of "normal" even though he's highly emotional and reactive. I continue to feel like there's something I'm not doing right-- in the sense that I'm handling his behavior poorly and reacting to it all wrong. And not only am I reacting poorly, I'm not helping him work through his emotions when my knee jerk reaction is to say something to the effect of "I don't care why you're doing that, just stop it."  People talk about finding their kids "currency" with regards to consequences and I've never been able to figure that out.  

 

I have read more parenting books than I can count and while I find very useful nuggets of information in each one, I still find myself slipping into crisis mode instead of implementing those strategies that would be more helpful in the long run. Things are getting better as my kids are getting older and more independent. (I tell ya, having my first 4 kids in 4 1/2 years was insane and mostly still is.)  But I am obviously still falling short of what I should and could be doing. As my mom would often say, "Motherhood is synonymous with guilt."  

 

There was a moment the other week that gave me hope that I hadn't completely ruined DS (yet). ;)  We were at the library and he was logged into a computer playing a game. He stood up briefly to help his brother when a 3 or 4 year old quickly slipped into seat. Had that been his own brother, DS might have flipped out and pushed him off. But he was so calm and patient with him, trying to convince him to go to a different computer. He finally told him "okay, you can watch me play" and then sat in the chair with him, nudging him over. The boy finally got up and walked away, but I was really proud of the way he had handled it calmly and patiently and told him so.   He is such a good kid and at times can be very mature and responsible. It's just those other moments when I'm at a loss as to what to do with him.

 

 

The hardest part o dealing with a kid like this is disconnecting from the behavior IMO.

 

Taking it all personally made it so exhausting for me.  The idea that I SHOULD be controlling it and the idea that consequences would fix it (if I figured out the right ones) held me prisoner.

 

The fact is that you can be totally codependent with a kid like this.  You can involve yourself in manipulating and walking on eggshells and then the whole situation becomes infinitely worse.  What I have seen is moms who can detach from the behavior (NOT from the kid) fair better emotionally and in their relationship with their child.

S

 

YES! It took me years to get there. Yes, my kid, your kid, can be a royal pain, but it is what it is. I didn't necessarily make her that way, but I can contribute to her craziness. If I can step away and take my own feelings out of the equation, things deescalate quickly.

 

I began looking at my 15 yo screaming and crying as if she were a much smaller child. You probably handled toddler tantrums better because you expect them. So stop the expectations and meet your child exactly where he is. Tantrums and all.

[ELaurie]

I haven't read the entire thread, but our ds 12 is a lot like your ds 8. The links in my signature line have provided invaluable advice. I'm on my way out the door right now, but I may be able to add more specific details later.

 

All the Best,

 

ELaurie

[Tsuga]

Consequences that are punishment are not part of authoritative parenting. For an authoritative parent, the consequence of mistreating others is not the punishment of isolation by parent decree. It is the consequence of supporting the child thru the logical consequence -- the period when no other child will play with him...that includes emotional support as well as teaching how to play successfully.  For an authoritative parent, misusing a book does not mean books are banned by the parent, it means that books are used under supervision with the parent until the child is taught how and is able to consistently use the books appropriately. Not being ready at the time stated means the child gets in the vehicle as is, perhaps changing the shoes in the car or they have the logical consequence of missing the event, both with retraining on how to get ready in time and some with the how-to on writing and sending a note of apology to an event host if arriving late won't work.  Authoritative parenting involves explicit teaching and coaching with positive behavior techniques (no drop and give me 50 punishments as a consequence of not saying yes m'aam fast enough with the right attitude for example.) .

 

I don't think continually teaching right from wrong is a consequence. That happens anyway. But the other consequences are those which we actually use. We do not "drop and give me 20" in my home. What you are describing is much more similar to what we actually do. Yes I remove the book but it's not banned forever!

 

On the cleaning the room...what is the age? Most little ones can't do it independently if its multitask, some can with a checklist.  Most have little concept of time, so need the parent to set music or a visual timer so they can accomplish the task fast enough for the parent.

 

The kid is eight, newly eight, has been cleaning her own room since she was four.

 

Sorry, but parents of g kids don't get off that easy.  Many g kids are emotionally very sensitive, as they understand things they see about them too early.  They need to learn coping skills. Those skills don't appear magically...they come from observation and training.

 

Well that is how everyone parents, so what is the point of mentioning giftedness?

 

If your child is moody in the medical sense, you are talking special needs.  There is another forum for that. If not in the medical sense, it would help your situation if you would remove the label and relate to the whole child.

 

I have more than one child so I was using that term to explain that one of them--the one that has outbursts as described here--that is not at all how I think of her most of the time, don't worry.

 

 

Yes you could. And from the examples you've given, you'd benefit from taking a course with a live instructor. Your pediatrician can refer you.

 

I have taken live courses. They were comical in their assumptions. "Just do this--after a week your child will get it!" LOL, literally laughing out loud. I've been to two courses. All assume that if only you listen, the child will feel loved and eventually, like within a matter of weeks, start to change behavior. They were much less helpful than books.

 

 

I have walked this path. 15 minutes with a qualified psych can help you immensely. . The psych can help you motivate your child to cooperate and give you suggestions to meet her emotional and mental stimulation needs so she doesn't need to act out to get  them met etc.  And if this is a blended family, what your child is doing is making sense.  She sounds like she wants time for mental stimulation, and wants your time, 1:1, w/mental stimulation, and if that means she has to behave poorly to get that time, she acheived her goal.. Family counseling is helpful in those situations. Your can get a psych recommendation from your pediatrician or your public school psych/counselor/principal.

 

She's always been like this. She's actually happier in a family with more people.

 

She has one on one mom time every day. Yep, we do that too.

 

Let me put it this way: if it has been written in aparenting column, I have done it and probably still do. Special 1:1 time? Check. Time-outs for mom? Check. Remain calm 99% of the time? Check. List of rules? Check. Oh my god I could go on and on.

 

The way to stop yourself is by controlling your emotions.  Count to ten, take a respite, whatever coping skill you want to use to prevent the explosion of emotion and express it in an appropriate way.  A psych can help you learn these skills. You need them so you can teach them to your child.

 

You also mentioned dealing with tantrums in another post. If you'd like to start a new thread and state the age, people here can help you. 

 

Um.... I wasn't clear. She can see my eye twitch. She used to smile when I'd walk to take a time out. You don't get it: I'm not yelling. She can see me react even if it is just my lip trembling, my voice lowering, me swallowing. Her dad used to do something similar: I would blink before answering him when I disagreed. That would give him a foothold because he knew I was getting upset. "What's wrong? Do you disagree?"

 

As a child, she is not that sophisticated. But in terms of her ability to interpret my slightest movements, changes in my breath, I am severely disadvantaged.

 

Counting to ten. How cute. Been there, done that, do that.

 

If that could solve our issues we'd be good as gold.

 

Your assumption is that I couldn't possibly be doing a good job, because if I knew what you knew and did the right thing, I would not be having this problem.

 

It's my fault: I made her this way.

 

I get it. That is of no help to me, though, because I know what I do and nothing you have said here is remotely new to me.

 

So what could be new?

 

 

[hornblower]

Um.... I wasn't clear. She can see my eye twitch. She used to smile when I'd walk to take a time out. You don't get it: I'm not yelling. She can see me react even if it is just my lip trembling, my voice lowering, me swallowing. Her dad used to do something similar: I would blink before answering him when I disagreed. That would give him a foothold because he knew I was getting upset. "What's wrong? Do you disagree?"

 

As a child, she is not that sophisticated. But in terms of her ability to interpret my slightest movements, changes in my breath, I am severely disadvantaged.

 

Counting to ten. How cute. Been there, done that, do that.

 

If that could solve our issues we'd be good as gold.

 

Your assumption is that I couldn't possibly be doing a good job, because if I knew what you knew and did the right thing, I would not be having this problem.

 

It's my fault: I made her this way.

 

I get it. That is of no help to me, though, because I know what I do and nothing you have said here is remotely new to me.

 

So what could be new?

 

Hm.  You almost sound like you don't want there to be a solution? It's hard to tell but what you've written is quite disturbing/painful to read.

 

I have a question: Why is your reaction something that puts you at a disadvantage?  I don't understand this concept of "being at a disadvantage" with an 8 yo (or a spouse for that matter)

Why is getting upset bad? In my world, relationships are not zero-sum games in which someone is out to get someone.

 

One thing that strikes me is that what you're describing is you having a reaction, determining the reaction is the problem, and spending a lot of effort to stifle/hide/mask the reaction.  I'm wondering whether the key here is not to mask it, but to not have it.  (Or second best scenario have it, & be honest about it.....)

 

It's hard to gauge your statement that you made her that way. Not sure if that was made as a cynical joke or what. FTR, I don't think you made her this way.  But you've made yourself the way you are. 

 

Also, ftr, an 8 yo cleaning her own room since she was 4 sounds incredibly weird to me. It's completely not something I did as a child or would expect from my kids.

 

But as always ymmv.

[Sdel]

Um.... I wasn't clear. She can see my eye twitch. She used to smile when I'd walk to take a time out. You don't get it: I'm not yelling. She can see me react even if it is just my lip trembling, my voice lowering, me swallowing. Her dad used to do something similar: I would blink before answering him when I disagreed. That would give him a foothold because he knew I was getting upset. "What's wrong? Do you disagree?"

 

As a child, she is not that sophisticated. But in terms of her ability to interpret my slightest movements, changes in my breath, I am severely disadvantaged.

 

Counting to ten. How cute. Been there, done that, do that.

 

If that could solve our issues we'd be good as gold.

 

Your assumption is that I couldn't possibly be doing a good job, because if I knew what you knew and did the right thing, I would not be having this problem.

 

It's my fault: I made her this way.

 

I get it. That is of no help to me, though, because I know what I do and nothing you have said here is remotely new to me.

 

So what could be new?

 

Is it possible you are projecting the father's past behaviors onto your child?  Because honestly, if your not, the level of manipulation you are hinting at is completely sociopathic.  But trust me, I do get it....I fall into the same trap sometimes, we get hypersensitive to the things that remind us of past hurts. 

 

Stefanie

 

[Tsuga]

 

You almost sound like you don't want there to be a solution

 

I want there to be a solution that I have not already tried repeatedly.

 

I'm not sure if you don't believe I've tried Heigh Ho's advice, or if you think that I couldn't have possibly applied it correctly and not gotten the expected result, but why would you think that although I have had eight years in which to try to get my child to stop using yelling and screaming to (not) get her way, I couldn't have tried everything on a two-page thread?

 

 

I have a question: Why is your reaction something that puts you at a disadvantage?  I don't understand this concept of "being at a disadvantage" with an 8 yo (or a spouse for that matter)

Why is getting upset bad?

 

Well, Heigh Ho rightly pointed out that I should remain calm. Reacting to a child's mood gives them something to work with in terms of attention. I don't want to give positive attention to negative behavior. I want to calmly redirect and failing that calmly lead calming down.

 

I didn't used to think in terms of remaining calm or using certain behavior to achieve certain reactions, but after reading a bazillion parenting books, not to mention advice like Heigh Ho's on the Internet, I have learned that the three most important, most common pieces of advice given to parents are:

 

1. Be consistent.

2. Do not get upset except in cases of potential loss of life or limb.

3. Focus on the behavior, not the child's person.

 

I used to show emotion more and be more into engagement and be a much more authentic person. But as a parent I've had to scale back a lot so that I did not feed into negative behavior patterns.

 

 

In my world, relationships are not zero-sum games in which someone is out to get someone.

 

That probably means you aren't in an abusive relationship with someone who has narcissistic personality disorder. Congratulations! Neither am I--right now. :)

 

 

Also, ftr, an 8 yo cleaning her own room since she was 4 sounds incredibly weird to me. It's completely not something I did as a child or would expect from my kids.

 

Huh. I would say all my cousins' kids cleaned their rooms from the age of 3 or 4--not alone at that age, of course, but certainly picking things up--and definitely of my neighbors, I would say all the girls have to clean their rooms before playing on the weekend. I know this because my own kids have come home and said, "so and so can't play because she didn't finish cleaning her room".

 

I don't know about the boys.

 

 

It's hard to gauge your statement that you made her that way.

 

If I didn't make her this way, who did?

 

If my behavior isn't causing the problem, what is?

 

If I could change my behavior to improve her behavior, doesn't that imply that what I have done up to now would have been the cause of the negative behavior?

 

[Sdel]

 

 

That probably means you aren't in an abusive relationship with someone who has narcissistic personality disorder. Congratulations! Neither am I--right now. :)

 

 

If I didn't make her this way, who did?

 

If my behavior isn't causing the problem, what is?

 

If I could change my behavior to improve her behavior, doesn't that imply that what I have done up to now would have been the cause of the negative behavior?

 

*Bingo*  I think you are being too hard on your daughter here and projecting the abuse you received and it's effects on you to your relationship with your child.  

 

I have been in an abusive relationship with someone who has a narcissistic personality, only difference it *was* the child that was the abuser.  It is easy to be hypersensitive to what is perceived to be the same behaviors.  I sometimes do it with my daughter when she expresses a similar behavior to her brother.  In her case, it is the "ultimatums" and "threats".  Yes, my child on a daily basis somehow thinks she can threaten me with "if I don't get to do X, then I won't do Y."  It sends me to the moon in rage when she does because that is a very subtle flip to what the under tone to all of her bother's abusive behavior was...."if you don't let me do X, I'll do Y to you."  All I can think about is how if she is comfortable threatening me a 6, what will the threats look like at 16, and I've already lived through a very vivid example of the kind of damage a 16 year old can do.  While in the rage, my thinking is that I have to figure out *what* consequence or punishment will be severe enough to completely eradicate the behavior.....because I certainly won't, can't, allow myself to be subjected to that kind of behavior ever again, even if it is coming from my own child.

 

When the reality is, she's just 6 and she's just trying to figure out a way to get to do what she wants to do......

 

Stefanie

[hornblower]

Ok, as always, ymmv. I don't know you, I don't know your situation & I'm just a random internet stranger but fwiw....

1. I strongly believe in the mix of nurture & nature. Kids come with personality. Babies come with personality. Some are easy going little dumplings, and others are pi$$y from the get go. What we do as parents matters, but some things are JUST THERE. We didn't put them there, they are part of someone's personality or their brain chemistry. So no, our actions, our behaviour doesn't cause everything.

2. The language you are using & the examples you are listing are all heavily focused on behaviour. Personally,  I'm a behaviour junkie. I clicker train my dogs. I live & breathe behaviourism, classical conditioning & the 4 quadrants of operant conditioning with my dogs. I'm familiar with the use of behaviourism in the workplace & in interpersonal relationships.

 

But you might be surprised to know that in parenting, it's a tool I rarely reach for.

3. I think if I was faced with what you're describing I'd be thinking one of two things: a huge attachment issue that needs repairing, or a deep psychiatric problem that needs professional help.

4. Because I'd want it to be an attachment issue, I'd be immersing myself in developmental psychology approaches such as the ones I linked above by Gordon Neufeld. I'd work as much as I could on attachment. Everything flows from a good attachment & attachment is not guaranteed. You can be with a child 24/7 and love them with all your heart & still have attachment issues; it's not easy. 

5. Again, I disagree that consistency matters. Attachment matters way more. I'd worry way less about being consistent & way more on creating/repairing attachment.

6. I'd stop having expectations about what the child should be able to do.

I'd stop  myself every time I had the thought "but she 'should' be able to do...,, she's just blowing me  off, she knows how to etc etc etc"
If she's not, assume it's because she can't & figure out why. How does the picture need to change for her to be able to? Does this just need more time or maturity? Does this need help?  Are your expectations realistic? This would not mean doing everything her way, but it would mean negotiating a solution that everyone can live with. 

Maybe this is different than what you've been trying? Maybe looking at this situation from a different pov will change things a bit? I don't know.

I think that's all I have right now :) Best wishes.



 

I want there to be a solution that I have not already tried repeatedly.

 

I'm not sure if you don't believe I've tried Heigh Ho's advice, or if you think that I couldn't have possibly applied it correctly and not gotten the expected result, but why would you think that although I have had eight years in which to try to get my child to stop using yelling and screaming to (not) get her way, I couldn't have tried everything on a two-page thread?

 

 

Well, Heigh Ho rightly pointed out that I should remain calm. Reacting to a child's mood gives them something to work with in terms of attention. I don't want to give positive attention to negative behavior. I want to calmly redirect and failing that calmly lead calming down.

 

I didn't used to think in terms of remaining calm or using certain behavior to achieve certain reactions, but after reading a bazillion parenting books, not to mention advice like Heigh Ho's on the Internet, I have learned that the three most important, most common pieces of advice given to parents are:

 

1. Be consistent.

2. Do not get upset except in cases of potential loss of life or limb.

3. Focus on the behavior, not the child's person.

 

I used to show emotion more and be more into engagement and be a much more authentic person. But as a parent I've had to scale back a lot so that I did not feed into negative behavior patterns.

 

 

That probably means you aren't in an abusive relationship with someone who has narcissistic personality disorder. Congratulations! Neither am I--right now. :)

 

 

Huh. I would say all my cousins' kids cleaned their rooms from the age of 3 or 4--not alone at that age, of course, but certainly picking things up--and definitely of my neighbors, I would say all the girls have to clean their rooms before playing on the weekend. I know this because my own kids have come home and said, "so and so can't play because she didn't finish cleaning her room".

 

I don't know about the boys.

 

 

If I didn't make her this way, who did?

 

If my behavior isn't causing the problem, what is?

 

If I could change my behavior to improve her behavior, doesn't that imply that what I have done up to now would have been the cause of the negative behavior?

 

[Guest LearningInTX]

Two of my girls have had similar issues with this. My oldest, who is a sixth grader now, struggled with angry outbursts and refusal to do her assignments in a loud, rebellious sort of way for years. Some days were better than others, and we couldn't really figure out what is was. What finally worked for her is taking out red dye (read HUGE change) and adding fish oil supplements. I've heard the "red dye thing" before, but never put much thought into it. The way we eventually figured it out was one day she had a great morning, and then flipped out after lunch. We came to the conclusion that it had to have been the 2 red popsicles she had after lunch. Now it's very obvious anytime she's had something containing red dye. Night and day for her. No joke. We have a completely different kid!

 

With my second daughter, who is now 9, she shows more sensory type tantrums. We took her to a chiropractor when she was around 3 because of her behavior as well as some health problems she was having (night terrors among other things). The blood test they did showed that she had an allergy to casein (mostly) and gluten. In the Out of Sync Child book, there is one statement about how sometimes removing casein from a child's diet can help with the sensory issues. So for her, her outbursts occur when she has included these things in her diet. Her tantrums are definitely more sensory related though. They look different than her older sister's. She'll say things like, "Stop talking, stop talking," and cover her ears. Or she'll scream down the hall when she gets overwhelmed by not being able to concentrate on her school. Or she'll be extra wiggly, unable to sit in a chair, and prefer sitting on the floor. Those types of things.

 

My suggestion is to look at his diet first and try these things. If you don't want to necessarily take the medicine route right away, I would talk to a chiropractor first.

[Tsuga]

*Bingo*  I think you are being too hard on your daughter here and projecting the abuse you received and it's effects on you to your relationship with your child.  

 

I have been in an abusive relationship with someone who has a narcissistic personality, only difference it *was* the child that was the abuser.  It is easy to be hypersensitive to what is perceived to be the same behaviors.  I sometimes do it with my daughter when she expresses a similar behavior to her brother.  In her case, it is the "ultimatums" and "threats".  Yes, my child on a daily basis somehow thinks she can threaten me with "if I don't get to do X, then I won't do Y."  It sends me to the moon in rage when she does because that is a very subtle flip to what the under tone to all of her bother's abusive behavior was...."if you don't let me do X, I'll do Y to you."  All I can think about is how if she is comfortable threatening me a 6, what will the threats look like at 16, and I've already lived through a very vivid example of the kind of damage a 16 year old can do.  While in the rage, my thinking is that I have to figure out *what* consequence or punishment will be severe enough to completely eradicate the behavior.....because I certainly won't, can't, allow myself to be subjected to that kind of behavior ever again, even if it is coming from my own child.

 

When the reality is, she's just 6 and she's just trying to figure out a way to get to do what she wants to do......

 

Stefanie

 

:grouphug: I am so sorry. I cannot imagine how painful it would be to deal with that with your own child. Mine was my ex-husband and it was bad enough. How utterly demoralizing to live with a child who treats you like that.

 

I attract people who tell me they will kill themselves if I don't stay with them / tell them I love them / prove my love. I can only hope it's just me and not something men do in general!!! Luckily I have found a wonderful, wonderful stepdad for my kids. He is just amazing.

 

For the record, I have gone to counseling for the marriage and related trauma, and am aware that there is no reason that she should have the same disorder her dad does. And I am aware, keenly, when I process her behaviors that she cannot have that personality disorder because to some extent all children are narcissists--it's the adults who have the disorder because they failed to grow up. So it's normal to some extent. I know this.

 

But the fear is there. Whenever someone says, "They grow out of it," I think, "HAH. Some of them don't, and I know several." I don't want to think that. I want to think, like they do, that my precious little bubby could NEVER do anything like that, not MY daughter! But I can't. Because I am too aware of when it doesn't work. :(

 

I tell myself that I simply must operate on the assumption that it won't happen. Otherwise I'll be paralyzed with fear, because as you know, you can only live with so much of that before your heart just dies.

 

 

If she's not, assume it's because she can't & figure out why. How does the picture need to change for her to be able to? Does this just need more time or maturity? Does this need help?  Are your expectations realistic? This would not mean doing everything her way, but it would mean negotiating a solution that everyone can live with.

 

I really do appreciate your post. I do think that assuming she cannot improve in that moment is something I am willing to take into more consideration while it is happening.

 

I started out with attachment parenting, actually. It seems extremely intuitive to me and I really liked the way it seemed to work.

 

Then two things happened.

 

The first was that I met more kids--in particular, the children of attachment parents and those whose parents used traditional discipline (let's say, 1-2-3 Magic, logical consequences type stuff). I don't like being hit by seven-year-olds and I find it exceedingly difficult to deal with a five year old who is still taking toys from babies. I do like it when people say please and thank you and have the ability to be sincerely grateful for a popsicle. Still, I thought that perhaps people with exceptionally difficult and rude children gravitated towards AP as a last resort, whereas I'd started out with it, so...?

 

The second was I continued to spend time with my kid. My kid would throw tantrums, shout and threaten even to get things that she had never, ever gotten. The more I tried to talk through it, the more her threats escalated. She seemed to interpret continued engagement as a second chance not to behave and join the relationship, but to get what she wanted: my attention. It was creepy and saddening.

 

At that point, I moved to a much less attachment-centric approach. We have slowly gotten to a point where I feel my child is very trustworthy in public--school, classes, etc. and at home, we have a routine that saves my sanity and which sends a clear message about right and wrong.

 

I really will consider going back to attachment. But please understand that I'm not dismissing it lightly.

 

Behavioral tactics have worked best and allowed us maximum peace to maintain a family where most of our time is nice. Some of the time is not. Those times, I wonder, how could this be less intense? Why does it escalate? Maybe that's the time to connect.

 

But if that increases strife in our family--as it has before--I will stop. Not because I don't want to connect, but because at some point I need to think about my responsibility to her sister, myself, our family, and society at large.

[hornblower]

Oh, I'm glad to read your response because I worried that I was being too obnoxious or harsh.

I wanted to clarify something though  - attachment parenting is, generally speaking, not the same as the developmental theories of attachment or their application.

One is sort of rooted in the other but tbh, I've seen lots of ap kids whose parents seem to think attachment is all about a free for all & almost 'unparenting'.

I know we had Gordon Neufeld speak to several groups that were full of ap parents & he really threw them for a loop. A lot of ap parents are very child centered - the exact opposite of what Neufeld is talking about. He has a lecture series (I think it's a dvd too) on Alpha Kids which addresses this.  I remember a whole room practically sucking in their breath when he very gently berated people for bending over backwards to appease children, catering to their whims etc as being ap. He kept coming back to the image of a mama duck walking down the road & the babies running behind her.  The mama duck isn't chasing the babies. The babies follow her. Now she's got a lot of biology on her side & we don't,  but we still want that kind of outcome.  But he doesn't believe you get it through authoritarian means... you have to earn it through secure attachment.  & it's hard work. That's why I said above that some of the Neufeld work is that incredibly difficult.

So this is just a long way of saying going into attachment does not mean you have to accept children behaving like brats or being rude or hurting people. That's not ok.  Neufeld would never say that's ok.

The other thing you said that made me pause was the issue of you finding it troubling that she was possibly engaging in certain bhvr for your attention I don't know - I feel out of my depth here but I have to wonder again if this attention seeking is a symptom of deficiency of attachment. When the love tanks are filled & the attachment needs are met, a lot of this just stops happening.   So I don't know but maybe it's ok for her to be getting attn. Maybe that was the only way to get the kind of intense attn she needs? I don't know.

 

If you start viewing bhvr as a symptom & attachment disorders as the real underlying problem, then it starts to make more sense to work on the attachment because then the symptoms will just start disappearing & presenting less intensely, kwim?

best wishes.
 

[Sdel]

:grouphug: I am so sorry. I cannot imagine how painful it would be to deal with that with your own child. Mine was my ex-husband and it was bad enough. How utterly demoralizing to live with a child who treats you like that.

 

But the fear is there. Whenever someone says, "They grow out of it," I think, "HAH. Some of them don't, and I know several." I don't want to think that. I want to think, like they do, that my precious little bubby could NEVER do anything like that, not MY daughter! But I can't. Because I am too aware of when it doesn't work. :(

 

The first was that I met more kids--in particular, the children of attachment parents and those whose parents used traditional discipline (let's say, 1-2-3 Magic, logical consequences type stuff). I don't like being hit by seven-year-olds and I find it exceedingly difficult to deal with a five year old who is still taking toys from babies. I do like it when people say please and thank you and have the ability to be sincerely grateful for a popsicle. Still, I thought that perhaps people with exceptionally difficult and rude children gravitated towards AP as a last resort, whereas I'd started out with it, so...?

 

The second was I continued to spend time with my kid. My kid would throw tantrums, shout and threaten even to get things that she had never, ever gotten. The more I tried to talk through it, the more her threats escalated. She seemed to interpret continued engagement as a second chance not to behave and join the relationship, but to get what she wanted: my attention. It was creepy and saddening.

 

 

It is very hard....even to this day, and this particular kid is my stepson.  He was 13 when I came into the picture.  We had to resort to some drastic measures to protect ourselves.  Honestly, it is pretty bad when your child's therapist tells you to *EXPECT* your child to fake a CPS report....even down to beating himself black and blue with a belt or when your other children tell you that the one child is bragging to them that he can control a parent and they have to do what he says.  And I've seen him do some pretty cruel and manipulative things to other people too.  And yes, I have the momentary gut wrenching feeling sometimes when she pulls certain stunts that I'm never going to get her to understand right, wrong, and how to be empathetic and my daughter is going to turn into a sociopath....I think most people would call it PTSD.

 

My child acts very similar to what you describe.  I've been dealing with couch misbehavior for 4 year...nothing has made a dent.  Up until 6 months ago she would throw things at me when she was mad, sometimes while I'm driving.  She takes toys from the baby, but sharing issues don't seem to be outgrown (at least not by my stepkids).  And she *often*complains that what she got wasn't what she wanted and whines/temper tantrums/gets destructive.  She was an extreme preemie, and that is a risk factor for attachment issues so, I second the recommendations to go back to attachment.  I do find with my 6 year old, "time ins", "come alongside your child" advice helps us a lot, and it is something she is hyper focused on because *every* day she plans out what she wants us to do and declares it *mommy and me day* and yet by 3 pm she is purposefully pushing *every* button to get my most negative reactions. 

 

But, I think you might need to think more globally in your child's case.  Attachment is critical towards both parents, and you have a situation where one parent doesn't seem able to have healthy attachment to the child.  My stepson's case.....how much attachment can you have to a parent when one is always trashing the other and from a young age all the kid hears is the other parent is the boogieman? 

 

ETA:  I'll have to charge my Nook, but I'll fish out yet another book title for you.  It has a section on attachment issues and some strategies for all ages that can be used to strengthen attachment.

 

Stefanie

[Jaybee]

OP, my situation is not the same as yours. I have a child who was adopted at the age of 4. There were some issues with raging, sulking, and so on. And he could/can push my buttons like nobody's business. I am not a normally hot-tempered person, but whew, he could escalate me like crazy. So I am going to just list some things that have helped with us, and if any of it is helpful, there it is. I am not trying to say I know what you should do, because I may just be wastefully taking up internet space here. :)  And it may seem too simplistic for your situation. (Those evals sound like a good idea.) However, it has taken a lot of trial and error, and basically, it seems like a combination of little things, as well as time, that has been the magic bullet rather than one or two big things, in improving our relationship and the environment in our home. Some of these suggestions have been very helpful with a sensitive older child who had high anxiety levels.

 

1. Some kids need a lot of structure and order in their lives, as little clutter as possible (in routine, curriculum, activities, as well as stuff). This can be hard to provide with lots of littles. But simplifying life and routines as much as possible in order to help life run as smoothly as possible makes a huge difference in the anxiety levels of some kids. This can affect many other areas in a positive way, including helping me to be less stressed. It may involve cutting out activities that I think are good. As a reasonably well-adjusted adult, there are some homes where the atmosphere ramps up my anxiety because it is just so frenetic and there seems to be no plan or order. He may react to something as 'clutter' that I don't see as clutter. I need to consider whether it should be cut out or simplified in some way.

2. Increased affection. This child's love language is physical touch. He needs lots of hugs, pats on the back, head rubs, and so on. Lots.

3. Refusing to engage. When he pitches a fit, or starts to escalate things, I remove myself from the situation if at all possible. (Hard when littles might be hurt, I know.) I try to ignore it. My insides might be boiling, but I try to not engage on the outside. Sometimes, if he goes to his room, it is helpful for me to go in and rub his back, just lie on the bed beside him while he cries, or have some kind of physical connection with him. Other times, he does not respond, and after giving him some affection, I will slip back out of the room.

4. Checklists, posted menus, posted chore charts, a watch--anything that helps him know what the plan for the day is, is helpful. He wants to know what the routine is and what is going to happen when. Of course, we do try to help him grow in flexibility. But he does best if that is in the context of knowing what to expect and a consistent routine in general. He does not need to have to rely solely on my verbal instruction to know the plan; he needs it in writing. My verbal instructions can be clutter (see #1). This helps me as well.

5. It has helped our relationship to talk to him in affirmative ways outside of any meltdowns; talking to him as though he is older and more mature, talking to him about his gifts or things we appreciate about him, etc. Basically helping him to see that we are really on the same team, and we want a good relationship with him--and that it is not all on him to make that happen.

6. Adjustments to curriculum; for us this has meant: Using TT for math, which removed me from the position of telling him he got the problem wrong; dropping CLE reading and language arts, which were too wordy for him (substituting Easy Grammar and another reading program have helped); alternating paragraphs in reading has helped take some pressure off him; audio books for history, and not requiring feedback on science reading and pleasure reading. Granted, your child is more advanced. However, sometimes, just because a child is capable of certain brain work may still not be best. It may be better to lessen the pressure he feels a bit so that his anxiety is less, even if he might not have to work quite at his top level. Less is more. I try to make sure that I am teaching the best, most important skills, but in the simplest, most straightforward manner. Again, removing clutter. Lots of curriculum choices include lots of clutter; we are so afraid of missing something that we include too much. So I have tried to isolate the skills and teach them in the most simple way possible (usually using curriculum that does this). Some kids need more space around their brainwork; by this I mean that in order to do their best thinking for school, they need high quality and less quantity. 

7. Protein with meals, regular snacks and mealtimes. This makes a huge difference for him.

8. His maturity. As he grows, his ability to control his reactions and take responsibility for improving things is growing as well. It isn't perfect, but neither is mine.

ETA:

9. Plenty of physical activity, hopefully outdoors.

10. A regular bedtime, preferably with him all worn out due to #9.

 

[LaughingCat]

My OP was written after several especially intense outbursts, which aren't common for DS.  I mean, he's always highly emotional, but that level of intensity is rare. This is a stressful time in general as DH has been working 60-70 hour work weeks which leaves me without a break as well. And even just after writing my OP, I've reflected a lot on how my own behavior escalated those incidents. Things have been better since I wrote the OP, primarily in the sense that I'm paying attention to how what I'm doing affects the situation and DS's behavior. I was feeling hopeless and lost. I feel much better now. The advice here has been especially helpful. I meant to talk to my aunt, who is a counselor with LDS social services, when I saw her the other day. I have also thought about getting in touch with a family friend who is also a family counselor for his recommendations. I will go forward with something... it's just going to have to feel right.

 

If your DH doesn't normally work the long hours then this might be part of the problem as well.  Both my DC have found it incredibly emotionally draining to deal with DH being gone much longer days than usual.

[LaughingCat]

In regards to escalating consequences or continued discussion in the heat of the moment, I have never found that tactic useful for either of my children (and they are very different personalities).   It promotes meltdown rather than stopping it.  For me, the advantage to staying calm is that I don't feel the need to escalate just because they are expressing their displeasure with the situation poorly.  Only when it bothers me do I feel the need to keep discussing or throwing more consequences at them.   So I don't worry about appearing calm and unruffled - I just try to do the same things I do when I'm calm and unruffled (which for me, mostly means keeping my mouth shut).

 

OTH discussion in a later calm (for both of us) moment, I have found immensely useful for both children.    Even including discussion of consequences/recompense for behavior that happened during anger or meltdown.

[Tsuga]

Re: codepenent, actually, no. I tend to leave said people quickly. I think they think I am codependent because I'm easygoing. They make that mistake, and then they are really, really upset when they realize that I do have boundaries and I fight for them right away. They feel deceived. They thought I was trying to make them happy, but actually I was just indifferent.

 

This is a big mistake people make about me a lot. :)

 

My marriage lasted only due to the children. All other weird relationships were over immediately after the thread. But ex-H waited until I had a baby to start his crap.

 

He is a very smart person.

 

 

Regarding Bolded #1.  So you have codependent tendencies.  Join the club, right?  Its awesome that you have gotten past them and picked a GOOD partner.  That is really a massive thing in the life of those of us who like to fix,manage, control.

 

[Sdel]

 

ETA:  I'll have to charge my Nook, but I'll fish out yet another book title for you.  It has a section on attachment issues and some strategies for all ages that can be used to strengthen attachment.

 

Stefanie

 

Take a look at Parenting Without Power Struggles by Susan Stiffelman. 

 

Stefanie

[kiwik]

Get an evaluation. Start with the paediatrician and see if you can just get basics done. Maybe he is anaemic or has low blood sugar etc. There really could be just a basic physical problem that changes it from normal 8 to over the top. Keep a record and see if there are any better/worse times. After that if there is still a problem you can look further. It never hurts to increase your knowledge.