Classical education western/euro-centric?

[Leftyplayer]

I am enjoying slowly and painstakingly learning about a classical education style.  The style so far matches most accurately the way that I want to teach my children (though I'm not devote).  I particularly love the concept for chronological history, but have been troubled by one thing.  We are just getting started so I might find that my early perceptions were wrong.  But there seems to be a heavy slant toward a Eurocentric education.

 

Curious about whether my vague perception was correct, I googled something like 'classical education' 'homeschool' and 'eurocentric' (not sure if those were the exact terms) and found this homeschoolers' blog post

 

http://www.caerdroia.org/116/archives/2004/12/on_the_westernc.html

 

I'm wondering what others here that are following a classical approach in their homeschooling think about that.  I was troubled by her statement that western culture, it's history and mythologies were superior/ better.  I wonder how common that is among classical educators?  If she's an anomaly, then why DOES classical education seem slanted?  Am I imagining the bias?  How much do you supplement Greek mythology, for example, with, say, a children's study of he Ramayana?  Is it just a lack of resources (Greek mythology books are a dime a dozen, but I'm finding it hard to find a good selection of similar works for other civilizations/ cultures).  It seems like in classical education, one has to work harder at finding sources to round out the education, culturally speaking (though SOTW has a nice intro to various ancient civilizations).  I can't tell if that's by accident or by design.

 

By the way, I'm coming at this from a 100% secular stance.  Not sure if that matters in how non-western cultures and their mythologies are perceived.

[Walking-Iris]

I don't consider myself 100% classically educating. Mainly because I don't identify with most homeschooling labels. I also have noticed that quite a bit of the materials one can find that have the "classical education" tag come from Christian sources. WTM seems to be the most adaptable to a secular homeschool.

 

I haven't read the blog you linked yet, but yes, I do feel that there is a strong bias in some of the materials towards a Eurocentric, Christian worldview.

 

BUT having said that, I have read many posts from these forum members who are identifying as classical educators who don't seem to have that bias slant at all.

 

In my homeschool, we do cover the history and mythology and religions of other cultures. NOT in an apologetic sense. Often I hear that other religions are being taught and it turns out to be nothing more than defense of the faith type nonsense. 

 

I find that the big ideas behind this method of homeschooling are appealing. It can be difficult to find materials if you are a secular or non-Christian family however. For history I like K12 Human Odyssey for the middle school years. It goes into so much more detail about Ancient China, India, Japan, etc. We do plan on reading the Ramayana. Actually I wouldn't consider my kids well educated without reading the major holy books. But that's just important to our personal family culture. 

 

Joy Hakim writes a wonderful US History series. Pandia Press does its level best to publish history and science materials that are secular. 

 

Galore Park is a great source for materials. 

 

To homeschool in a secular way, you'll have to get creative. Most of the major curricula publishers, especially those classical ed publishers, are going to have a strong bias.

[Rosie_0801]

I am enjoying slowly and painstakingly learning about a classical education style.  The style so far matches most accurately the way that I want to teach my children (though I'm not devote).  I particularly love the concept for chronological history, but have been troubled by one thing.  We are just getting started so I might find that my early perceptions were wrong.  But there seems to be a heavy slant toward a Eurocentric education.

[

 

Yep, and that's deliberate.

 

Curious about whether my vague perception was correct, I googled something like 'classical education' 'homeschool' and 'eurocentric' (not sure if those were the exact terms) and found this homeschoolers' blog post

http://www.caerdroia.org/116/archives/2004/12/on_the_westernc.html

 

I'm wondering what others here that are following a classical approach in their homeschooling think about that.  I was troubled by her statement that western culture, it's history and mythologies were superior/ better.  I wonder how common that is among classical educators?  If she's an anomaly, then why DOES classical education seem slanted?  Am I imagining the bias?  How much do you supplement Greek mythology, for example, with, say, a children's study of he Ramayana?  Is it just a lack of resources (Greek mythology books are a dime a dozen, but I'm finding it hard to find a good selection of similar works for other civilizations/ cultures).  It seems like in classical education, one has to work harder at finding sources to round out the education, culturally speaking (though SOTW has a nice intro to various ancient civilizations).  I can't tell if that's by accident or by design.

 

"More worthy of study" does not have to mean "inherently superior." It can mean more relevant. For example, I have no intentions of spending time and money studying the history of Kenya. Kenya is quite interesting as far as I know and I have read some enjoyable things about it, but books on the topic aren't going to make it to the top of my Amazon wish list. This is no fault of Kenya's. It's that I'm Australian, have a budget to stick to, and have no reason to dwell on Kenya. My sister, on the other hand, married a Kenyan and I'd think she was a bit odd if she didn't after school her kids in a substantial amount of Kenyan history. 

 

There are several reasons why it might be harder to find materials about non-Western cultures and none of them are the fault of classical education or classical educators! Firstly, they might be out of print. Secondly, they may have been published in other languages, as those resources are not targeted at the English speaking world. Thirdly, they might not have been written at all yet. When people around here want resources about non-Western cultures, they search Amazon, trawl through the archives here for the wonderful lists people have compiled or ask. People have many reasons why they may or may not choose to look for those materials. I, for example, base my homeschool on a sort of neo-pagan nationalism, which led me to spend $200 dollars at the Muslim shop in the past year. This surprised them a bit. :p

 

Ultimately though, what you do in your homeschool is whatever you design and follow through on. If you want to include more non-Western elements, tell us what you're looking for and someone is bound to know just the thing.

[Reefgazer]

Yes, it is Eurocentric and Western-oriented.  I've decided I like that for my kids because we are of Euro descent and western.  I add in supplementary material where I feel it's needed.  I imagine if one was of African descent, they would add in more African history, if they were of Japanese descent they would add in more eastern history, etc...

[stripe]

Classical as a method may be different from classical as a topic area. Classical normally does mean Ancient Greece and Rome, and that is why you will find some Christians think it is too pagan.

 

Kinza Academy includes Islamic content, and the Board believes it is in accord with traditional Arab/Islamic educational styles.

http://www.examiner.com/article/interview-with-kinza-academy-founder-and-home-school-advocate-nabila-hanson-part-ii

[8filltheheart]

One thing that should not be overlooked is the dominate philosophies which have influenced a culture.   Regardless of how much an individual may think they are removed from culture, even the most inane ideas tend to be influenced by cultural philosophies which may be centuries old.   Western cultures are influenced by Western philosophies just as Eastern cultures are influenced by Eastern philosophies.   Learning about other philosophies is interesting, but understanding how your own thoughts have been formed and influenced by philosophies you didn't even know existed and how they permeate so much of our culture really gives insights to your own thoughts.

[Hunter]

I belong to a private forum that is discussing cultural appropriation right now.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/09/cultural-exchange-and-cultural-appropriation/?upw

 

When I'm accused of being both Eurocentric and of committing acts of cultural appropriation, in the same week, I stop caring about pleasing others and being politically correct.

 

It's impossible to please all the people all the time. I don't believe there even is a "right" way or a wrong way to approach all this, but even if there were, there would still be people telling you that you are wrong.

 

If someone is lucky enough to be born and raised in a single culture, I think they have a right to keep their world small and be centric.  On the other hand, if someone is raised hanging onto the edges of a hodgepodge of cultures never being fully accepted by any of them, they have the right to adopt the pieces of those cultures that are most practical and empowering to them.

[Targhee]

Classical Education is Eurocentric, because that is it's natal essence. This does not equate with a claim of European superiority any more than saying "I was born in Oklahoma" is the same as "Oklahoma is superior." As a model of education, Classicism cannot extol the end results of Eastern pedagogies because it is outside the experience and history of Classical pedagogy. It is possible to receive an impressive education from another philosophy and history, but Classical education doesn't speak to that. I believe the only claims of superiority it may lay are over the Dewey-Erickson era reforms and their modern sequelae.

[Wind-in-my-hair]

My ideal for my child is that he should have a deeper education, steeped in the liberal arts, and very kid-collegiate in feel. Western culture is so vast that to go deep into a few areas, while developing critical skills, can take years, and be enjoyed, so that there is less time to delve into other world cultures. I had little chance to explore other cultures while I was in school yet I also did not read great American classics to the extent that many homeschooling families try to do.

 

I think its really important to understand your own cultural roots, and be able to express yourself using your own culture's symbols, in a way that you identify with, and also in a way that can communicate cross-culturally. If you meet someone who is from another culture, you should expect them to know more about theirs than yours, and they would expect you to be able to teach them something about yours. You might strive for awareness and exposure to the cultures of the world, and demonstrate respect for cultural understanding. And your child may like to learn more about a culture that is foreign to them, and they can make a special project of it that may lead them to study it in college if they wish. 

 

Many educational philosophies, it seems, want to teach broad, general basics and call that "cultural studies," and then allow the students to go deeper in college. My view is, focus deeply on topics, whatever they may be, for your children will have plenty of exposure throughout their lives to broaden their horizons. Classical education is about having the strength of intellect and the skills, so that kids can learn well what they choose to apply themselves to.

[AMJ]

I don't consider myself 100% classically educating. Mainly because I don't identify with most homeschooling labels. I also have noticed that quite a bit of the materials one can find that have the "classical education" tag come from Christian sources. WTM seems to be the most adaptable to a secular homeschool.

 

I haven't read the blog you linked yet, but yes, I do feel that there is a strong bias in some of the materials towards a Eurocentric, Christian worldview.

 

BUT having said that, I have read many posts from these forum members who are identifying as classical educators who don't seem to have that bias slant at all.

 

In my homeschool, we do cover the history and mythology and religions of other cultures. NOT in an apologetic sense. Often I hear that other religions are being taught and it turns out to be nothing more than defense of the faith type nonsense. 

 

I find that the big ideas behind this method of homeschooling are appealing. It can be difficult to find materials if you are a secular or non-Christian family however. For history I like K12 Human Odyssey for the middle school years. It goes into so much more detail about Ancient China, India, Japan, etc. We do plan on reading the Ramayana. Actually I wouldn't consider my kids well educated without reading the major holy books. But that's just important to our personal family culture. 

 

Joy Hakim writes a wonderful US History series. Pandia Press does its level best to publish history and science materials that are secular. 

 

Galore Park is a great source for materials. 

 

To homeschool in a secular way, you'll have to get creative. Most of the major curricula publishers, especially those classical ed publishers, are going to have a strong bias.

 

Would you mind sharing the list of major holy books you are having your kids read, please? 

 

[Mrs Twain]

Western-centric education is not merely for understanding oneself. We focus primarily on it because it is the assumed knowledge of an educated person in our culture.

 

If we had been born in China, we would have focused primarily on a different set of assumed knowledge.

 

There is nothing inherently wrong or anti-PC about western-centric education. It is smart to have a western-centric education. Of course it is good to learn about other histories and appreciate other cultures and points of view, but they are not necessarily in the assumed knowledge category and therefore do not require the same amount of emphasis.

 

I am speaking not from a biased cultural perspective but from an evidence-based education perspective.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I get a little perturbed at the co-opting of classical education by religious groups.  A modern classical education to me is an attempt to mimic the liberal arts that were taught in Greece and Rome.  The purpose of education was to create functioning adult (albeit only male) citizens who could participate in the running of the country.  This is my goal as a classical educator.  I want my children to have a broad knowledge of history, science, literature, and art.  I want them to be able to participate in society and government processes.  We focus on Western civilization because we have inherited that culture.  If my family background was from somewhere else, of course, our focus would be otherwise.

[Walking-Iris]

Would you mind sharing the list of major holy books you are having your kids read, please? 

 

 

My kids are still too young to read them critically in their original forms. At these ages my kids are familiar with the major Old/New Testament stories. I've used several different children's resources for that. I will use The Bible and Its Influence as a spine in the high school years to supplement Bible readings (I've not settled on a version just yet but I will not be using KJV). Also we have read quite a few picture books by Patricia Polacco, Latkes and Applesauce, It's a Miracle. 

 

We will be reading The Tao of Pooh this year, and they will read the Tao Te Ching when older. 

 

My little ones enjoy Zen Shorts, and Jataka Tales. When older I would like them to read Siddhartha and some major Theravada and Mahayana sutras. (there are a ton of various collections of these). I would also like them to read Confucius' Analects (excerpts). 

 

Under the Ramadan Moon is sweet for little ones, when they are older we will read the Koran. (excerpts).

 

We have several of Vatsala Sperling's Classic Indian (Hindu) Tales for Children. When older they will read the Ramayana and excerpts from Bhagavad Gita. (my Dh actually already has a very nice curricula lesson plan for that one).

 

I try to keep collections of stories from any culture as I come across them. My ds is a huge fan of African Folktales and Native American tales. I would love  a good reference for Catholic saints stories for children, and stories for children from Judaism (Talmudic..beyond Old Testament readings).

 

I studied psychology and comparative religions in college, and although I haven't pursued those things in a professional sense after, I'm still very much invested in religious studies of all sorts. 

 

This post is likely out of topic for whether a classical education is biased or not, but hopefully it answers the OP's question about studying or reading these books from other cultures. For my part, yes...we do and will. 

 

I get a little perturbed at the co-opting of classical education by religious groups.  A modern classical education to me is an attempt to mimic the liberal arts that were taught in Greece and Rome.  The purpose of education was to create functioning adult (albeit only male) citizens who could participate in the running of the country.  This is my goal as a classical educator.  I want my children to have a broad knowledge of history, science, literature, and art.  I want them to be able to participate in society and government processes.  We focus on Western civilization because we have inherited that culture.  If my family background was from somewhere else, of course, our focus would be otherwise.

 

Exactly!

[Space station]

Thescrappyhomeschooler, Mrs Twain, and Targhee expressed most of my thoughts about this topic better than I probably could have. I will add that part of what I like best about using TWTM approach and SWB's history books, is that they do not ignore the rest of the world. We can delve further into any historical or cultural reference that we want to, but at the heart of it we come from a western background, and that is what we should know best. I would expect someone from China to know their history and culture best, someone from India to know their history and culture best, etc. With that in mind, we do add more American History into our 4 yr cycle of world history, because we are American. Further, we add specific Wisconsin history topics as well, because that is where we live. But I don't plan on studying the history of...I don't know...Alabama, or Azerbaijan. (I'm not knocking Alabama or Azerbaijan! Alabama just came to mind because it was the first in the song we used to memorize the states - I'm sure it is just as fascinating as the history of Wisconsin! And my neighbors spent 2 years in Azerbaijan.).

[ElizaG]

I get a little perturbed at the co-opting of classical education by religious groups.  A modern classical education to me is an attempt to mimic the liberal arts that were taught in Greece and Rome.  The purpose of education was to create functioning adult (albeit only male) citizens who could participate in the running of the country.  This is my goal as a classical educator.  I want my children to have a broad knowledge of history, science, literature, and art.  I want them to be able to participate in society and government processes.  We focus on Western civilization because we have inherited that culture.  If my family background was from somewhere else, of course, our focus would be otherwise.

The bolded would also apply to classical education as it was taught in Europe, and then in North America, from the early Middle Ages right up to the late 19th century (when the tradition went into a rapid decline).   The methods and texts originated in ancient Greece and Rome, but the curriculum was nearly always taught by Christians, to other Christians, in a way that had been adapted to fit with their beliefs and values.    These schools were often run by religious groups, whose goal would be to prepare young men as potential leaders in the Church (although most of the students would typically end up in politics, law, commerce, etc.).

 

I can understand why people who identify more with the beliefs and values of the pagan world would prefer to go straight to ancient sources, but this brings its own challenges, as they're going to find themselves almost 2000 years removed from anything resembling a living tradition.   

 

Something else to note is that the modern idea of "Trivium stages" is based on the Scholastic curriculum that was followed at certain medieval universities, around the 12th century.   People have taken to calling this sequence "classical," but Dorothy Sayers herself actually called it "neo-mediaeval."   It's quite different from the way the liberal arts were taught in the ancient world, and then later in the Renaissance and early Modern times.   So, if anything, it seems that it's the families who are trying to do a secular version of WTM (or other Sayers-inspired methods) who are "co-opting" a historically Christian model of education.  

[Rosie_0801]

I do hope the OP is getting something useful out of this...

[ElizaG]

There have been some past threads that went over similar ground, though I can't find all the links.   

 

Here's one from a few months ago that started out being about the definition of classical education, and turned into more of a thread about how much to teach about non-western cultures.  So I think our tangents might all balance themselves out over time.   ;)

 

Define "classical education"

[HS Mom in NC]

I am enjoying slowly and painstakingly learning about a classical education style.  The style so far matches most accurately the way that I want to teach my children (though I'm not devote).  I particularly love the concept for chronological history, but have been troubled by one thing.  We are just getting started so I might find that my early perceptions were wrong.  But there seems to be a heavy slant toward a Eurocentric education.

 

Curious about whether my vague perception was correct, I googled something like 'classical education' 'homeschool' and 'eurocentric' (not sure if those were the exact terms) and found this homeschoolers' blog post

 

http://www.caerdroia.org/116/archives/2004/12/on_the_westernc.html

 

I'm wondering what others here that are following a classical approach in their homeschooling think about that.  I was troubled by her statement that western culture, it's history and mythologies were superior/ better.  I wonder how common that is among classical educators?  If she's an anomaly, then why DOES classical education seem slanted?  Am I imagining the bias?  How much do you supplement Greek mythology, for example, with, say, a children's study of he Ramayana?  Is it just a lack of resources (Greek mythology books are a dime a dozen, but I'm finding it hard to find a good selection of similar works for other civilizations/ cultures).  It seems like in classical education, one has to work harder at finding sources to round out the education, culturally speaking (though SOTW has a nice intro to various ancient civilizations).  I can't tell if that's by accident or by design.

 

By the way, I'm coming at this from a 100% secular stance.  Not sure if that matters in how non-western cultures and their mythologies are perceived.

This issue is where I live as my youngest is adopted from S. Korea. I'll get to that in a minute.  First I want to address a common problem among newbies or purists.

 

It's a classic rookie mistake to assume whatever brand of Classical Education a person has been exposed to is the only "true" or "pure" version or definition.  No one can participate in something that's developed over thousands of years from far reaches of the earth and ignore all the variants or, to make it more clear, denominations or subcultures.  Whether it's Trivium or Mentor Model or Charlotte Mason or Principle Approach or whatever they're doing with royals at Eaton these days or whatever Greek children today are getting from their ancestors, there are going to be all sorts of variants in old things.

 

Classical, meaning roughly, what has endured the test of time and has been passed down is just different content in different places.  It also has to be mixed with the local cultures. We may not use the term Classical Education in the English speaking world for those great works that have influenced, say, Asian cultures, but they exist and they are really are a Classical Eastern Education none the less. This is true all over the world.

 

We adopted our youngest from S. Korea, the last Confucian society on earth.  So, as her mother, it's my responsibility and privilege to give her as much of her ethnic heritage as I can and prepare her for life in this American culture she lives in. That means making sure she's familiar with Classic writings like the Tripitaka Koreana (the oldest known copy of Siddhartha's writings)  The Analects by Confucius, The Tao of Ching by Lao Tzu and the Art of War by Sun Tzu.  I also have English translations of Korean history books used in S. Korean schools and contacts to help with Korean history and culture so she understands why she was not adopted in S. Korea and how to relate to other Korean people. 

 

My older two biological children have a basic understanding of these, but my youngest will need more familiarity with them because they are more relevant to her life.  That doesn't mean they're better or worse than Plato's Republic, The Bible or Aristotle's Rhetoric, but they're more relevant to one kid than to my others.  She needs to understand why her culture rejected her and why her birth mother made the agonizing decision she did and she will if she understands Confucius.

 

A good Liberal Arts or Classical Education should, as my husband says, give the lay of the land.  So, familiarity with basic world history and basic world religions needs to be included for everyone, regardless of their own particular religious beliefs. Along side that should be the Classic works of their own particular religion. That doesn't mean that the classic works in other religions should be ignored, but we expect a Muslim to spend far  more time in and give far to give more weight to The Koran than say, the sacred texts of a Hindu. It's just as reasonable for a Christian to spend far more time in and give far more weight to the Bible than to The Tripitaka. There are also classic writings about the sacred texts that will be studied too. For the record, I'm a devout Christian that always uses pagan literature and sacred texts from other faiths in my homeschool because it's instructive about human nature, cultural differences and is a nice lens through which I view my own religion and culture with new eyes sometimes.

 

Sometimes I think people get in a huff about these things because they think they should rather than just asking themselves what makes sense in the lives of different people in different parts of the world with different convictions. Also, having a genuine, consistent appreciation for diversity helps keep your hackles down.

[Walking-Iris]

   So, if anything, it seems that it's the families who are trying to do a secular version of WTM (or other Sayers-inspired methods) who are "co-opting" a historically Christian model of education.  

 

Honestly I don't really feel that anyone is co-opting anything. No religious group has a copyright on a method of education. The curricula (actual books available for purchase) that have a "classical ed" tag may or may not even be "true" to the original classical ed model.

 

BUT I don't live in Ancient Rome or Medieval Catholic Europe...I live in the 21st century Illinois USA...so...

 

There are things about this method of education useful to home educators, secular or otherwise, and other things that I feel one can safely lay to the side without feeling guilty. 

 

If one wanted to explore this method of education in their homeschool, I feel it's totally acceptable to adapt it to the family's individual belief values,and the current historical time we live in. 

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

The bolded would also apply to classical education as it was taught in Europe, and then in North America, from the early Middle Ages right up to the late 19th century (when the tradition went into a rapid decline).   The methods and texts originated in ancient Greece and Rome, but the curriculum was nearly always taught by Christians, to other Christians, in a way that had been adapted to fit with their beliefs and values.    These schools were often run by religious groups, whose goal would be to prepare young men as potential leaders in the Church (although most of the students would typically end up in politics, law, commerce, etc.).

 

I can understand why people who identify more with the beliefs and values of the pagan world would prefer to go straight to ancient sources, but this brings its own challenges, as they're going to find themselves almost 2000 years removed from anything resembling a living tradition.   

 

Something else to note is that the modern idea of "Trivium stages" is based on the Scholastic curriculum that was followed at certain medieval universities, around the 12th century.   People have taken to calling this sequence "classical," but Dorothy Sayers herself actually called it "neo-mediaeval."   It's quite different from the way the liberal arts were taught in the ancient world, and then later in the Renaissance and early Modern times.   So, if anything, it seems that it's the families who are trying to do a secular version of WTM (or other Sayers-inspired methods) who are "co-opting" a historically Christian model of education.  

 

This was the case because the Christian church was pretty much the only institution preserving any form of education and writing in Europe after the fall of Rome.  Christianity enjoyed a near monopoly in Europe by keeping the masses ignorant during the Middle Ages, so the only participants in the political life were the wealthy who could afford tutors for their children and the clergy.  Whereas, in ancient Rome, the liberal arts were pursued by free born citizens.

 

The "classical" education I want for my kids is more based on the liberal arts concept.  Neither Greece nor Rome were secular societies. They had a very active religious community, worshipping multiple gods. My point was that one particular religion does not have a claim on teaching children to become critical thinkers and active participants in their societies.

[Ad astra]

This issue is where I live as my youngest is adopted from S. Korea. I'll get to that in a minute. First I want to address a common problem among newbies or purists.

 

It's a classic rookie mistake to assume whatever brand of Classical Education a person has been exposed to is the only "true" or "pure" version or definition. No one can participate in something that's developed over thousands of years from far reaches of the earth and ignore all the variants or, to make it more clear, denominations or subcultures. Whether it's Trivium or Mentor Model or Charlotte Mason or Principle Approach or whatever they're doing with royals at Eaton these days or whatever Greek children today are getting from their ancestors, there are going to be all sorts of variants in old things.

 

Classical, meaning roughly, what has endured the test of time and has been passed down is just different content in different places. It also has to be mixed with the local cultures. We may not use the term Classical Education in the English speaking world for those great works that have influenced, say, Asian cultures, but they exist and they are really are a Classical Eastern Education none the less. This is true all over the world.

 

We adopted our youngest from S. Korea, the last Confucian society on earth. So, as her mother, it's my responsibility and privilege to give her as much of her ethnic heritage as I can and prepare her for life in this American culture she lives in. That means making sure she's familiar with Classic writings like the Tripitaka Koreana (the oldest known copy of Siddhartha's writings) The Analects by Confucius, The Tao of Ching by Lao Tzu and the Art of War by Sun Tzu. I also have English translations of Korean history books used in S. Korean schools and contacts to help with Korean history and culture so she understands why she was not adopted in S. Korea and how to relate to other Korean people.

 

My older two biological children have a basic understanding of these, but my youngest will need more familiarity with them because they are more relevant to her life. That doesn't mean they're better or worse than Plato's Republic, The Bible or Aristotle's Rhetoric, but they're more relevant to one kid than to my others. She needs to understand why her culture rejected her and why her birth mother made the agonizing decision she did and she will if she understands Confucius.

 

A good Liberal Arts or Classical Education should, as my husband says, give the lay of the land. So, familiarity with basic world history and basic world religions needs to be included for everyone, regardless of their own particular religious beliefs. Along side that should be the Classic works of their own particular religion. That doesn't mean that the classic works in other religions should be ignored, but we expect a Muslim to spend far more time in and give far to give more weight to The Koran than say, the sacred texts of a Hindu. It's just as reasonable for a Christian to spend far more time in and give far more weight to the Bible than to The Tripitaka. There are also classic writings about the sacred texts that will be studied too. For the record, I'm a devout Christian that always uses pagan literature and sacred texts from other faiths in my homeschool because it's instructive about human nature, cultural differences and is a nice lens through which I view my own religion and culture with new eyes sometimes.

 

Sometimes I think people get in a huff about these things because they think they should rather than just asking themselves what makes sense in the lives of different people in different parts of the world with different convictions. Also, having a genuine, consistent appreciation for diversity helps keep your hackles down.

Love your perspective so much, and kudos to your effort to help your each child understand her/his roots and have a balanced and comprehensive world view. Hope I can do the same for my half-Korean kids. I plan to supplement SOTW with a wide range of historical/cultural texts published in Korea.

[ElizaG]

Honestly I don't really feel that anyone is co-opting anything. 

 

I'm not sure that I do either, and it would never have occurred to me to add that term into the conversation.   :001_smile:   In fact, I've never heard Christians saying this about secular Sayers-style neo-classical homeschoolers.  The reverse allegation does seem to be made fairly often on these boards, though.  

My point was that one particular religion does not have a claim on teaching children to become critical thinkers and active participants in their societies.

 

 

This brings up a whole other question, because the type of schooling that's historically been referred to as "classical" -- whether pagan or Christian -- didn't emphasize "critical thinking," at least, not in the way we'd use that term today.  These teachers were much more interested in forming their students in eloquence and good character, and handing on a cultural heritage.   This is the pedagogical tradition that included Isocrates, Quintilian, the English grammar schools and elite public schools, the Jesuit Ratio Studiorum, American colonial colleges, etc. 

 

The emphasis on critical thinking, dialectic, and inquiry came more from the universities, which existed in various forms from the academies of the ancient philosophers, through the medieval schools, to the modern Prussian-inspired tertiary research institutions.    University-style pedagogy was usually seen as an optional stage coming after classical (secondary) schooling, though sometimes -- as in the high Middle Ages, and again in our own time -- it came to dominate the earlier stages of education.   

 

Bruce Kimball's Orators and Philosophers has a pretty good description of the history of these parallel traditions.   It's out of print and hard to find, but there's a page of useful notes here that gives some of the general idea.  

[....]

 But there seems to be a heavy slant toward a Eurocentric education.

 

 

A few years ago, my in-laws came to visit.  My husband and his family immigrated here from Asia.  My FIL was looking through my kids' history stuff and that was exactly what he said.  He said everything was very "European-centered".  He was actually kinda irritated about it.  The next year, I added a big unit study on Asian lit.  Because, well...he was right...sorta.

 

A couple of thoughts...there really is only so much time to teach.  Before anything else, I have to make sure they know the history of their own country (the US).  US history by itself takes up a big chunk of time.  My older kids are taking 2 years for US history in middle school and we'll probably take 2 yrs for it in high school also.  This is in addition to world history.  It's time-consuming.  I don't want them to know where Mesopotamia is...but not where Washington DC is.

 

Second, one of the reasons I like the Story of the World series is that it covers a lot of history of Asia, Australia and Africa.  We didn't get that much world history when I was in school.  It seemed like every year, we did US history up to the American Revolution and then we stopped.  We definitely never covered modern history, either.  Every time I read SOTW (especially SOTW 4) to the kids, I learn something.  So, I don't feel bad about their history education.  In high school, if they want to study "History of Japan" as an elective or something, they can.  But, for now, I have to cover the basics.            

[Momling]

The nice thing about homeschooling is that you can teach what you think is important for your kids to know without worrying whether it's "Classical" or not. I felt we had been a bit too Eurocentric, so after doing a three year sequence of Greece and Rome, Middle Ages in Europe, Renaissance and Early Modern Europe, we focused last year on non-western world history in a geography/literature/history continent-based unit study extravaganza which culminated in a month or two of modern world history that brought back in Europe again.  The only thing we've glossed over is US history which we'll work on for the next two years.  I teach what I think is important and interesting...

[Pronghorn]

Like an earlier poster, I am raising a child from an eastern culture and would like her to understand her country/region of origin, along with Western culture. I keep thinking about this as she works through Roman Roads Media's Great Books program. It is a four-year program, and I wish it had a fifth year that focused on great literature from the Eastern Hemisphere. Has anyone heard of any eastern literature programs on a high school level? Has anyone constructed one? I figure I could probably get a list of books put together, but it would be even better if there were some sort of spine to hold it all together. And I doubt Roman Roads Media will construct such a thing!

 

We do already study Chinese, which I too am learning, along with lots of world history. But reading the great literature would be even better.

[AMJ]

My kids are still too young to read them critically in their original forms. At these ages my kids are familiar with the major Old/New Testament stories. I've used several different children's resources for that. I will use The Bible and Its Influence as a spine in the high school years to supplement Bible readings (I've not settled on a version just yet but I will not be using KJV). Also we have read quite a few picture books by Patricia Polacco, Latkes and Applesauce, It's a Miracle. 

 

We will be reading The Tao of Pooh this year, and they will read the Tao Te Ching when older. 

 

My little ones enjoy Zen Shorts, and Jataka Tales. When older I would like them to read Siddhartha and some major Theravada and Mahayana sutras. (there are a ton of various collections of these). I would also like them to read Confucius' Analects (excerpts). 

 

Under the Ramadan Moon is sweet for little ones, when they are older we will read the Koran. (excerpts).

 

We have several of Vatsala Sperling's Classic Indian (Hindu) Tales for Children. When older they will read the Ramayana and excerpts from Bhagavad Gita. (my Dh actually already has a very nice curricula lesson plan for that one).

 

I try to keep collections of stories from any culture as I come across them. My ds is a huge fan of African Folktales and Native American tales. I would love  a good reference for Catholic saints stories for children, and stories for children from Judaism (Talmudic..beyond Old Testament readings).

 

I studied psychology and comparative religions in college, and although I haven't pursued those things in a professional sense after, I'm still very much invested in religious studies of all sorts. 

 

This post is likely out of topic for whether a classical education is biased or not, but hopefully it answers the OP's question about studying or reading these books from other cultures. For my part, yes...we do and will. 

 

 

Exactly!

 

Thank you!  Wonderfully helpful.  Would your DH care to share his lesson plan for Indian readings?  (Couldn't tell for certain if it was just Bagavad Gita, or including Ramayana, too.  Either way, I'd love to see the lesson plan!)

 

I will go a-hunting for many of these.

 

You sound a bit like me -- I have a mishmash collection of folklore from various locales/cultures that I collected mostly in my college years.  I also have a collection of kids' books -- I'm especially addicted to books with wonderful stories and really great illustrations.  (And gobs more books!)  In looking at the ages of some of the volumes and where I got them from I realized just today that I must take after my mother in this, and probably her mother.  There is a continuity between the books I inherited and the ones I've collected and kept over the years....

 

I studied archaeology and interdisciplinary religious studies in college.  Not a professional at either (not a very marketable degree, I'm afraid).  And yes, I'm still perpetually curious about religions.

 

As for getting off-topic, here's an attempt to return:

Judging from my hunts online for lists and recommendations of classic books for my kids to read, and for understanding "classical education" in general, I guess I'd say both "yes" (bias exists), and "it depends".  There is actually quite a bit of variety, all depending upon the source, to whom you are talking.  People will bandy about labels like "Western-focused" or "Neo-Classical", and still I find myself needing some conversation to first clarify what the source I'm looking into actually considers to fall under those labels.

 

So, in the end it pays to do what we are all apparently doing -- looking and hunting and examining what we find out there, and visiting forums and talking to people to find out more, see things from other perspectives.  In the end a classical education will, for the most part, be what we make of it, what we choose to use.  Yes, there are expected forms and directions others will assume you have followed, but again these will differ according to whom you are talking, and so entering into a conversation about how you chose to go about it will be more informative and clear than just answering a question or using a few labels.

 

Decide for yourself what you want to include.  Use what you find about classical education to guide you, help you decide on practices to try, materials to look into, ways of thinking.  And then look further, to see what else you want to include.

 

I sincerely doubt that Aristotle, or Socrates, or Plato, or any other old classical, pedastaled and venerated font of wisdom would, if they lived today, advise us to pay attention only to the Greek, Roman, and European works and ignore the rest of the world's literature and discoveries.  They would likely still stick to certain forms and approaches, since that is their culture, what is familiar to them.  But they would also seek to learn about other places and cultures, now that we can so easily traverse the globe (literally and figuratively).  They would, as they did back in their time, go as far as current life's limitations would allow.

 

Rambling, and perhaps still not quite on topic, but there, you have that, for what it's worth.

 

[Leftyplayer]

 

I do hope the OP is getting something useful out of this...

I absolutely am.  I have been reading the discussion quietly because, as a complete newcomer, I am still in a position of needing to LISTEN and learn.  Your discussion here is helping me better understand the community I'm joining.  While the blog post I linked was not from here, I became concerned that it might reflect the predominant mindset of classical educators (the blogger does specifically claim superiority).  But, the discussion that ensued here is much more interesting than "whose culture is better" and has been highly informative for me, as I continue to find my footing in my approach to our homeschooling.

 

Thanks for the link to the other discussion, I'm sure it'll help me further.

 

 

Classical, meaning roughly, what has endured the test of time and has been passed down is just different content in different places.  It also has to be mixed with the local cultures. We may not use the term Classical Education in the English speaking world for those great works that have influenced, say, Asian cultures, but they exist and they are really are a Classical Eastern Education none the less. This is true all over the world.

LOVE THIS statement.  I think you put words to my feelings about how I'd like to define classical for us. 

 

 

Decide for yourself what you want to include.  Use what you find about classical education to guide you, help you decide on practices to try, materials to look into, ways of thinking.  And then look further, to see what else you want to include.

Great advice.  Thank you.  I am finding myself slowly doing just that. 

[Alexigail]

A lot has been said that I agree with but I just want to add that while I do include non-western ideas, I try to be aware of my own shortcomings in that area.  I think that early exposure to different cultures, religions, and histories is very important.  On the other hand, I really shy away from things unless I know they are decent sources, and not completely watered down or westernized.  I find that SOTW does a fairly good job of introducing these topics but if my kids ever wanted more info on them, I'd have to be careful selecting good resources from the library.

For this reason, I do think that sometimes it's better to introduce the more complex aspects of non-western history when the child is old enough to 

1) read and understand good sources, which aren't often written in English at a young child's level, and 2) understand or at least know that they will be engaging another culture through the lens of their own and that there are biases that come with that.  When I was a kid I had a vague idea about other cultures as being groups of people dressed in various traditional outfits (think Brazillian Barbie- ugh). I didn't really discover the world until I was much older. This is where a chronological approach, paired with asking posing a lot of questions to this board comes in handy for me.  

 

This reminds me of a conversation on here about how we teach science.  Yes we are teaching biology, chemistry etc but we are also teaching our kids  HOW to study science- the scientific method, designing a good experiment etc.  For me it's the same with history.  How we look at the world (in my case as modern Americans) will affect what conclusions we draw.  These kinds of reflections will probably come later for my kids, so during the grammar stage I'm giving them a foundation in their own (western for the most part) culture and offering a variety of other things to explore and ponder so that when they reach the logic stage I have something to build on.  

 

 

 

[happybeachbum]

One thing that should not be overlooked is the dominate philosophies which have influenced a culture.   Regardless of how much an individual may think they are removed from culture, even the most inane ideas tend to be influenced by cultural philosophies which may be centuries old.   Western cultures are influenced by Western philosophies just as Eastern cultures are influenced by Eastern philosophies.   Learning about other philosophies is interesting, but understanding how your own thoughts have been formed and influenced by philosophies you didn't even know existed and how they permeate so much of our culture really gives insights to your own thoughts.

 

Cultures influence each other all the time.  China influenced India with the spice trade.  So much so there is a traditional Indian dance I didn't realize came from China.  Our number system is another example.

[happybeachbum]

One thing that should not be overlooked is the dominate philosophies which have influenced a culture.   Regardless of how much an individual may think they are removed from culture, even the most inane ideas tend to be influenced by cultural philosophies which may be centuries old.   Western cultures are influenced by Western philosophies just as Eastern cultures are influenced by Eastern philosophies.   Learning about other philosophies is interesting, but understanding how your own thoughts have been formed and influenced by philosophies you didn't even know existed and how they permeate so much of our culture really gives insights to your own thoughts.

 

But Eastern Philosophy has been influenced by Western just as Western has been influenced by Eastern etc.  Especially when you look at the fact that many westerners studied in the Africa, the East etc. 

[happybeachbum]

Thank you!  Wonderfully helpful.  Would your DH care to share his lesson plan for Indian readings?  (Couldn't tell for certain if it was just Bagavad Gita, or including Ramayana, too.  Either way, I'd love to see the lesson plan!)

 

I will go a-hunting for many of these.

 

You sound a bit like me -- I have a mishmash collection of folklore from various locales/cultures that I collected mostly in my college years.  I also have a collection of kids' books -- I'm especially addicted to books with wonderful stories and really great illustrations.  (And gobs more books!)  In looking at the ages of some of the volumes and where I got them from I realized just today that I must take after my mother in this, and probably her mother.  There is a continuity between the books I inherited and the ones I've collected and kept over the years....

 

I studied archaeology and interdisciplinary religious studies in college.  Not a professional at either (not a very marketable degree, I'm afraid).  And yes, I'm still perpetually curious about religions.

 

As for getting off-topic, here's an attempt to return:

Judging from my hunts online for lists and recommendations of classic books for my kids to read, and for understanding "classical education" in general, I guess I'd say both "yes" (bias exists), and "it depends".  There is actually quite a bit of variety, all depending upon the source, to whom you are talking.  People will bandy about labels like "Western-focused" or "Neo-Classical", and still I find myself needing some conversation to first clarify what the source I'm looking into actually considers to fall under those labels.

 

So, in the end it pays to do what we are all apparently doing -- looking and hunting and examining what we find out there, and visiting forums and talking to people to find out more, see things from other perspectives.  In the end a classical education will, for the most part, be what we make of it, what we choose to use.  Yes, there are expected forms and directions others will assume you have followed, but again these will differ according to whom you are talking, and so entering into a conversation about how you chose to go about it will be more informative and clear than just answering a question or using a few labels.

 

Decide for yourself what you want to include.  Use what you find about classical education to guide you, help you decide on practices to try, materials to look into, ways of thinking.  And then look further, to see what else you want to include.

 

I sincerely doubt that Aristotle, or Socrates, or Plato, or any other old classical, pedastaled and venerated font of wisdom would, if they lived today, advise us to pay attention only to the Greek, Roman, and European works and ignore the rest of the world's literature and discoveries.  They would likely still stick to certain forms and approaches, since that is their culture, what is familiar to them.  But they would also seek to learn about other places and cultures, now that we can so easily traverse the globe (literally and figuratively).  They would, as they did back in their time, go as far as current life's limitations would allow.

 

Rambling, and perhaps still not quite on topic, but there, you have that, for what it's worth.

 

 

Thank you!  Because look at the Library of Alexandria, The House of Wisdom etc.

[Bluegoat]

From my perspective, all of us who live in the west are westerners, even if our personal roots are elsewhere.  Our social institutions and governments are in the western tradition, and a lot of our assumptions and ways of thinking are as well.  If we are looking at the history of thought, we can see that what we think now is very much a development of what we thought before.

 

I think the idea that knowing ourselves is the beginning of wisdom is one of the more important cornerstones of education.  Until we understand our own ways of thinking and assumptions, it is very difficult for us to look at others and make any kind of reasonable judgement about them, or begin to understand what they are the way they are.

 

So - yes, for me, basic education will be the history of the west.  At various points there will be intersections.  For some students there will perhaps be another history - the history that belongs to their own family, set alongside that.  Some children may read other things in their spare time.  For my family, this is why we have done world history with a western focus, Canadian, and British history, with bits of other things here and there.  I think that will put them in an excellent position to really examine carefully other histories, without making mistakes because they don't know their own assumptions and filters.  (If I was Chinese and living in China, I would teach that history.  If I were myself living in China, I would teach two histories.)

 

The other thing is - I actually think history is to broad to make a coherent story when told all at once.  This is actually a difficulty I had with some of the chapters in SOTW that were there to bring in a greater sense of "world' history.  It felt to me like someone had taken a chapter or two from the middle of some other novel and slapped it into the middle of my own.  Because all history is interconnected the person recounting it will always have to choose boundaries, but I think if it is well done it is focused enough to feel like it is all working together.

[wintermom]

This issue is where I live as my youngest is adopted from S. Korea. I'll get to that in a minute.  First I want to address a common problem among newbies or purists.

 

It's a classic rookie mistake to assume whatever brand of Classical Education a person has been exposed to is the only "true" or "pure" version or definition.  No one can participate in something that's developed over thousands of years from far reaches of the earth and ignore all the variants or, to make it more clear, denominations or subcultures.  Whether it's Trivium or Mentor Model or Charlotte Mason or Principle Approach or whatever they're doing with royals at Eaton these days or whatever Greek children today are getting from their ancestors, there are going to be all sorts of variants in old things.

 

Classical, meaning roughly, what has endured the test of time and has been passed down is just different content in different places.  It also has to be mixed with the local cultures. We may not use the term Classical Education in the English speaking world for those great works that have influenced, say, Asian cultures, but they exist and they are really are a Classical Eastern Education none the less. This is true all over the world.

 

Yes, my friend from Iran grew up learning Persian classical poetry. She was raised in Canada, so she also learned typical western history, Christian religion (which was part of the public school curriculum back then), literature, philosophy, morals and ethics. 

 

Personally, I've tried to include aspects of relevant language, history, literature, religion, mythology, music and culture in my homeschool that relates to our home country (Canada; native/aboriginals, British, French), as well as our heritage countries (Norway, Sweden, Ireland, Poland, Ukraine). 

[ATP]

Some of these comments. Wow. People speak negatively about homeschoolers and I'd like to defend the community but you all don't give me much faith. We should of course focus on western classics because we live in the West. We should of course ignore other cultures because we do not live in the world not do we ever have any political, economic, or social interaction with people from other regions. Huge face palm. 
Also, working my way through The Well Trained Mind now and a big argument I've seen repeated here is pretty much the antithesis of their assertions. You don't teach about the self first. You look outward before looking inward. That's why  children are to read the classics, practice narration etc before self expression. By that logic we should be discovering every other culture first and only once that is well established then introduce our own. 
 

To answer OP: yes it is Eurocentric. I came in search of more globally inclusive classical resources and found this 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Six year zombie thread.