I'm scared NOT to use Saxon - with questions?

[Ann.without.an.e]

My oldest dd is very good at Math.  She tests really well in Math and she loves Saxon.  It works for her.  My younger dd is the same way.  My son (sandwiched between these two) hates math and hates Saxon.  It is like pulling teeth to get him to focus on math, etc.  He's actually pretty good at it IF I can get him to focus on it.  His strongest subject is Science so while Math doesn't have to be the love of his life,  he does need to do fairly well since it often walks side-by-side with Science.  

Should I keep pushing through or should I switch? If I should switch, any thoughts on a good fit for a kid who "gets" math but has a difficult time focusing/dislikes it?  I have been eyeing Thinkwell pre algebra?

 

He has just completed Saxon 8/7 and will be in Pre-algebra next year, if this matters.

 

thanks so much

[coffeegal]

Have you asked your son if a different program would make a difference? One of my sons dislikes math, but changing programs made no difference. "It's still MATH, Mom." Your son might love another book and thrive, or perhaps not. My suggestion would be to let him see samples of acceptable math programs and see what he has to say. I've heard good things about Life of Fred, so you could try that one as well as Thinkwell. :001_smile:

 

 

[wapiti]

I thought 8/7 *is* prealgebra? If he just completed 8/7 successfully, shouldn't he be ready for algebra 1?

[JanetC]

My usual advice for people who are thinking AOPS is to create an alcumus account and see what the child thinks.  For my AOPS kid, it was pretty much love at first sight.

 

@wapati - because AOPS is such a big approach change from Saxon, it makes sense to do at least some selected topics in pre-algebra before jumping in to algebra.  At least to get used to the new approach and the challenge problems.  Agree that if he's done one pre-algebra, he shouldn't need to another pre-algebra book from "cover to cover," though.
 

 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

I thought 8/7 *is* prealgebra? If he just completed 8/7 successfully, shouldn't he be ready for algebra 1?

 

 

8/7 simply has some pre-algebra in it, but it is not a full pre-algebra program.  I even had my mathematical child complete both courses.  I've "heard" that skipping Saxon pre-algebra is usually a mistake and lays a weak foundation.  Maybe I heard wrong?

[Ellie]

8/7 simply has some pre-algebra in it, but it is not a full pre-algebra program.  I even had my mathematical child complete both courses.  I've "heard" that skipping Saxon pre-algebra is usually a mistake and lays a weak foundation.  Maybe I heard wrong?

 

I strongly disagree. The publisher disagrees. The author disagreed. You have heard wrong.

 

:001_smile:

 

With current editions, the progression is Math 76, Math 87, Algebra 1. If the student struggles through Math 76 (less than 80% average), then he does Alg. 1/2, then Alg. 1.

[regentrude]

8/7 simply has some pre-algebra in it, but it is not a full pre-algebra program.  I even had my mathematical child complete both courses.  I've "heard" that skipping Saxon pre-algebra is usually a mistake and lays a weak foundation.  Maybe I heard wrong?

 

8/7 IS prealgebra. A student who completes and fully understands the material is ready to advance to algebra, even to the most rigorous algebra programs.

 

You might want to talk to your student to discover what exactly he dislikes about math. It could be general, but it could also be related to the curriculum. I have two students who hated Saxon and dragged their feet, but who really were excited about math as soon as we switched curriculum. They love puzzles and creative thinking, but hate busywork and drill.

[Ann.without.an.e]

8/7 IS prealgebra. A student who completes and fully understands the material is ready to advance to algebra, even to the most rigorous algebra programs.

 

You might want to talk to your student to discover what exactly he dislikes about math. It could be general, but it could also be related to the curriculum. I have two students who hated Saxon and dragged their feet, but who really were excited about math as soon as we switched curriculum. They love puzzles and creative thinking, but hate busywork and drill.

 

 

What did you use with those students when you switched?  He doesn't know if it is the program or math because Saxon is all he has ever used.

 

Thanks

[Ann.without.an.e]

8/7 IS prealgebra. A student who completes and fully understands the material is ready to advance to algebra, even to the most rigorous algebra programs.

 

 

 

 

Also, he understands the material.  He has no problem grasping it, but when it comes to mixed practice he misses so many problems - mostly because of careless errors or attention issues.  He doesn't do so great on tests either, but he *knows* how to do the problems....sigh.  Would you skip pre-algebra with a child like that?

[Jann in TX]

Age of student?

 

I've seen the extra year of a more advanced Pre-Algebra make a HUGE differrence.

 

I've had 2 students-- both coming from Saxon.  One completed 8/7 and the other 8/7 AND Algebra 1/2.  Both were A students and understood the material.  The student who completed Algebra 1/2 was better prepared for Algebra 1. No real comparison.  The student who completed 8/7 struggled at the beginning and came through with a B-- but would have had a better experiece (with MORE understanding) had they waited one more year.

 

If your student is going into 7th please wait. The careless errors and attention issues will hold him back (associated with puberty and mental maturity).

 

This is not limited to Saxon either.  Lial's Basic College Math is a Pre-Algebra course (similar to 8/7).  I've had students go directly from it into Algebra 1-- BUT the learning curve was steep.  Students who went through Lial's Pre-Algebra ( more than your typical Pre-Algebra course ) had a much much easier transition into Algebra -- they also had a better understanding of the concepts.

 

If your student is going into 8th then you have to make a choice.  I'd still vote for another year of Pre-Algebra and then plan on doing Geometry in a summer if he is still Science bent and a possible STEM major (so he can get to Calc in high school).

 

Saxon works for most students-- but I've found at least 30% of my students (I taught Saxon at the high school level for over 10 years) would have been better served with a more traditional program.

 

There is no shame is switching programs-- you are NOT downgrading-- Saxon is not the King of Math Programs-- it is just one of many good programs that we as homeschoolers get to choose between!

 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Age of student?

 

I've seen the extra year of a more advanced Pre-Algebra make a HUGE differrence.

 

I've had 2 students-- both coming from Saxon.  One completed 8/7 and the other 8/7 AND Algebra 1/2.  Both were A students and understood the material.  The student who completed Algebra 1/2 was better prepared for Algebra 1. No real comparison.  The student who completed 8/7 struggled at the beginning and came through with a B-- but would have had a better experiece (with MORE understanding) had they waited one more year.

 

If your student is going into 7th please wait. The careless errors and attention issues will hold him back (associated with puberty and mental maturity).

 

This is not limited to Saxon either.  Lial's Basic College Math is a Pre-Algebra course (similar to 8/7).  I've had students go directly from it into Algebra 1-- BUT the learning curve was steep.  Students who went through Lial's Pre-Algebra ( more than your typical Pre-Algebra course ) had a much much easier transition into Algebra -- they also had a better understanding of the concepts.

 

If your student is going into 8th then you have to make a choice.  I'd still vote for another year of Pre-Algebra and then plan on doing Geometry in a summer if he is still Science bent and a possible STEM major (so he can get to Calc in high school).

 

Saxon works for most students-- but I've found at least 30% of my students (I taught Saxon at the high school level for over 10 years) would have been better served with a more traditional program.

 

There is no shame is switching programs-- you are NOT downgrading-- Saxon is not the King of Math Programs-- it is just one of many good programs that we as homeschoolers get to choose between!

 

 

He is going into 8th.  I really fear skipping pre-alg with him.  I am almost certain the leap will be too much.  

Is there a particular program you would recommend me to look into?

What do you do with a child who is strong in Science - like VERY strong, but not very mathematical?  Is a STEM major even an option?  

 

He's good with people and has a great head on his shoulders.  What about a PA or the medical route - does it require so much math?  He wants engineering, but I think unless he increases in mathematical ability he needs to scratch that thought.

[EKS]

I think it also depends on the algebra book you use.  Jacobs, for example, is so gentle in the first five chapters that some people claim it includes prealgebra.

[Serenade]

Saxon works for most students-- but I've found at least 30% of my students (I taught Saxon at the high school level for over 10 years) would have been better served with a more traditional program.

Just curious, what is a more traditional program? I thought Saxon was pretty traditional, which is one of the reasons I chose it. (I'm an old dog who needed to use a math program that was similar to how I learned.)

[regentrude]

What did you use with those students when you switched?  He doesn't know if it is the program or math because Saxon is all he has ever used.

 

We switched to Art of Problem Solving.

 

Also, he understands the material.  He has no problem grasping it, but when it comes to mixed practice he misses so many problems - mostly because of careless errors or attention issues.  He doesn't do so great on tests either, but he *knows* how to do the problems....sigh.  Would you skip pre-algebra with a child like that?

 

The child did prealgebra. I do not see any benefit in making a student who understands the material conceptually repeat an entire course.

Careless mistakes and attention issues are typical for the age group. Both my kids had phases when they struggled with that - they are bright, very mathy, but it was a maturity issue. We addressed this simultaneously while continuing to advance conceptually.

Techniques that helped mine overcome those problems:

write on graph paper

one equation per line, equal signs aligned

use color for signs (careless sign mistakes, especially when expanding parentheses, were a problem for a few weeks)

extra practice in areas where they made more sloppy mistakes - but careful: sloppy mistakes can also be an indication that the student is bored. In this case, giving more practice problems will not accomplish anything -  fewer but harder problems might be helpful.

Had I parked them in another round of prealgebra to let them "mature", it would have been disastrous for my kids.

 

How much time does your kid spend on math? If lessons take a long time, he may simply not be able to concentrate for that time span. My very mathy DS who used AoPS Intro to Algebra in 6th grade without problems did not have an attention span to do focused math work for more than 45 minutes. Now as a 9th grader, he can focus for one hour; after that, the sloppy mistakes begin to creep in. If that is a factor, more math of the same type is not going to solve anything - advancing conceptually but keeping shorter lesson times might be a solution.

 

ETA: I am coming from a culture where there is no compartmentalization of math into "algebra" and "prealgebra", but where math is taught organically and the idea that students need to reach some magical maturity for "algebra" does not exist. Many topics that are saved for algebra in this country are considered appropriate for teaching in 7th grade elsewhere in the world; geometry topics saved for 10th grade here are taught in 6th. I don't buy into the idea that students need to be kept in holding patterns without advancing conceptually while waiting to "mature".

[snowbeltmom]

Also, he understands the material.  He has no problem grasping it, but when it comes to mixed practice he misses so many problems - mostly because of careless errors or attention issues.  He doesn't do so great on tests either, but he *knows* how to do the problems....sigh.  Would you skip pre-algebra with a child like that?

 

Your son has already completed pre-algebra if he has completed Saxon 8/7.  If your son is missing problems due to attention issues, I would look at different algebra programs other than Saxon.  Saxon has a lot of drill and kill.  It is not a good fit for many "mathy" kids.  His errors may be due to boredom.

 

ETA: I was typing while Regentrude was posting.

[Erin]

Also, he understands the material.  He has no problem grasping it, but when it comes to mixed practice he misses so many problems - mostly because of careless errors or attention issues.  He doesn't do so great on tests either, but he *knows* how to do the problems....sigh.  Would you skip pre-algebra with a child like that?

 

For good or for bad, that's exactly what I did.  He did very well in Algebra, though his daily work is still of similar "quality."   :rolleyes:

 

Personally, I'm just hoping this is a phase-thing that we're going to be outgrowing soon.

In my experience, this is an age-thing, rather than a boredom thing that a jump to a new, magically fun program is somehow going to fix.  Which isn't to say that jumping programs might not be a good thing, just that I don't think it's the cure for this individual issue.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

We switched to Art of Problem Solving.

 

 

The child did prealgebra. I do not see any benefit in making a student who understands the material conceptually repeat an entire course.

Careless mistakes and attention issues are typical for the age group. Both my kids had phases when they struggled with that - they are bright, very mathy, but it was a maturity issue. We addressed this simultaneously while continuing to advance conceptually.

 

 

 

So from Saxon 8/7 you would take him straight to AOPS Algebra 1?  

[Erin]

I think, for most kids, 8/7 is a perfectly good pre-algebra program.  
"Pre-algebra" exists as a remediation in most schools, btw.  The usual progression is 8th grade math straight into Algebra.  Pre-algebra is for the kids who really need an extra year.

[snowbeltmom]

So from Saxon 8/7 you would take him straight to AOPS Algebra 1?  

He would be ready for an Algebra I program, but AoPS in particular may or may not be the best choice for your son.  Before you purchase the books, you may want to have your son sign up for a free Alcumus account with AoPS and work some of those problems.  If he likes working in Alcumus, he will like the textbooks.  If he doesn't like Alcumus, I would look for an algebra program that is not Saxon or AoPS.

 

Good luck

[regentrude]

So from Saxon 8/7 you would take him straight to AOPS Algebra 1?  

 

I obviously do not know your son and can not say whether AoPS would be a good fit for him - it is a rather special program that does not fit every student.

But it is what I have done with both of my children. (Actually, with DS, we only did an abbreviated five month run through Saxon 8/7 at breakneck speed because he hated it so much; I ruthlessly compressed, combined lessons, cut problems and eliminated all topics not prerequisite for algebra mastery.)

Both my kids have done extremely well in math. DD flew through the entire AoPS Intro to Algebra book in her 7th grade year. With DS we took more time because he was younger and more immature; he only covered the algebra 1 portion (ch. 1-14) of the book in his 6th grade year.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I signed him up for alcumus to see how he likes it.  I might also have him read through a sample lesson.  I have also considered Thinkwell or LOF.  I have only used Saxon so I have no idea how to compare all of these options :/

[Teachin'Mine]

What was his percentage on the tests from 8/7?

[wapiti]

@wapati - because AOPS is such a big approach change from Saxon, it makes sense to do at least some selected topics in pre-algebra before jumping in to algebra.  At least to get used to the new approach and the challenge problems.  Agree that if he's done one pre-algebra, he shouldn't need to another pre-algebra book from "cover to cover," though.

 

 

Hey, I didn't say anything about AoPS!  (LOL  ;).  Ok, I admit, I thought it.)  While I love the Prealgebra text more than Intro to Algebra, for someone who had already been through a decent coverage of prealgebra, I would probably just go as slowly as necessary through the first chapter of Intro to Algebra, especially with regard to exponents and square roots, and allow for the adjustment to the problem solving to occur during the algebra course.

 

I agree with all the PPs about trying Alcumus - it's free.  Doing some of the prealgebra topics might even make for a nice summer review.

[Ann.without.an.e]

What was his percentage on the tests from 8/7?

 

 

His test average is a 79.2

[kiana]

Other books which are more traditional than AOPS but still very solid algebra texts include Jacobs and Foerster. Jacobs is more fun, Foerster has a heavy emphasis on word problems, but both are good solid choices. Foerster has support available through math without borders as well.

 

I'd *try* AOPS first, but these would also work.

[Teachin'Mine]

If he lost points mostly for careless errors, I wouldn't repeat pre-algebra.  I'd probably try doing something different as far as helping him to concentrate and giving him incentive to finish quickly and with fewer errors.   I agree that the carelessness is likely just an age issue.  I'd make math the first subject of the day and then give him some computer time, or something he'd like, for a few minutes afterward as a reward.  Maybe tie the number of minutes to the number of lesson problems he gets done correctly.   I'm not a fan of grading daily math work, but it could serve as an incentive if he gets one minute for each of the thirty problems solved correctly.  Might work, might not.  lol

 

We used Saxon all the way through, and it worked well, so I'm a fan.  I don't know what he's doing for science, but is he able to apply the math well there?  Can he do the significant figures well, measurement conversion, etc?  If so, I'd probably not switch math programs, but it doesn't hurt to look at some over the summer and see if there's something he'd prefer.  I wouldn't make him do Algebra 1/2 as the review would likely be torture and make his problems of getting through the lessons even worse.  Some students like challenges and he should get that with algebra.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Just curious, what is a more traditional program? I thought Saxon was pretty traditional, which is one of the reasons I chose it. (I'm an old dog who needed to use a math program that was similar to how I learned.)

 

One thing about Saxon is that it uses a spiral approach, not only to instruction, but also to the review in the mixed practice sets.  For some kids, that is a great choice, because it gives lots of review and keeps each piece of new knowledge small.  For other kids, there isn't enough practice on newly introduced concepts. 

 

For my kids, Saxon worked great up until pre-algebra.  Then they really needed more hang time with new topics.  They needed to work with a single concept and take it to extremes before moving along. 

 

To me a traditional program instructs the student in the concept, then provides practice.  Saxon does this, but adds the spiral approach to instruction. 

 

Other programs might use a discovery method, where the student is walked along (more or less successfully) in discovering how the math works by working through sample problems or exercises. An explanation might follow. Then the new concept would be applied.  I think AoPS does this really well.  But it is a very deep drink from a very high pressure hose.  Other programs popular in schools may use a discovery approach, but IMHO often fall short in making sure the student actually understands what they are doing and how it relates to other situations.

 

FWIW, other math programs do have spiral review. But they typically don't use a spiral approach to how lessons themselves are scheduled. Review comes either in specific review lessons or in how the concepts build on each other. 

 

FWIW #2, because of the way Saxon is constructed, I think it is pretty important to be doing all of the mixed practice in each lesson.  To do odd problems only means that there is a significant portion of the review that will be skipped.  Also the pre-lesson work is often structured to be a preview of the day's lesson.  When we were doing Saxon, I found that there was a SIGNIFICANT improvement in understanding when we stopped skipping problems.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Forgot to mention.  AoPS was a good shift for my older kids.  We moved when one was in 8th grade and the other was 7th.  We went into the Intro to Algebra book, which took us a little over 2 years.  We did not try to use the online classes

 

However, I think that you do need to stay on top of your student. It is easy to get intimidated and start avoiding the mathbook.  It is a book that is designed to let the student struggle, in the way that a boxer struggles as he is learning how to take and throw a punch. If they persevere, they will probably come out with some fierce math skills.  Other negative is that there are no pre-written tests and it may be harder to assess how your student is doing.  (There are oodles of AoPS discussions.)

 

There were times that I switched to Dolciani, because I felt that my kids needed to spend more time on a concept than AoPS had them devote.  (It seems to me that AoPS is written with the presumption that once the student masters a concept, it stays mastered.  In my experience, my kids could successfully work through a problem, then a week later be unsure of what they were doing.  This was especially apparent when it came to working with quadratics.  What I realized is that they had not fully comprehended multiplying polynomials. So work that built on that understanding was unsound.  A month of multiplying polynomials in an old Dolciani algebra book was a great solution for us.)

 

For my youngest, a rising 7th grader, I dropped Saxon much earlier and moved to the Dolciani Mathematics books.  We are about to finish Course 1 and move into Course 2. The two years together are a strong pre-algebra course, with a good introduction to geometry and probability as well.  From there we will either move into AoPS or Dolciani for algebra.

[JanetC]

Hey, I didn't say anything about AoPS! (LOL ;). Ok, I admit, I thought it.)

I agree with all the PPs about trying Alcumus - it's free. Doing some of the prealgebra topics might even make for a nice summer review.

Sorry, was responding to 2 different responses while only quoting one.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

If he lost points mostly for careless errors, I wouldn't repeat pre-algebra.  I'd probably try doing something different as far as helping him to concentrate and giving him incentive to finish quickly and with fewer errors.   I agree that the carelessness is likely just an age issue.  I'd make math the first subject of the day and then give him some computer time, or something he'd like, for a few minutes afterward as a reward.  Maybe tie the number of minutes to the number of lesson problems he gets done correctly.   I'm not a fan of grading daily math work, but it could serve as an incentive if he gets one minute for each of the thirty problems solved correctly.  Might work, might not.  lol

 

We used Saxon all the way through, and it worked well, so I'm a fan.  I don't know what he's doing for science, but is he able to apply the math well there?  Can he do the significant figures well, measurement conversion, etc?  If so, I'd probably not switch math programs, but it doesn't hurt to look at some over the summer and see if there's something he'd prefer.  I wouldn't make him do Algebra 1/2 as the review would likely be torture and make his problems of getting through the lessons even worse.  Some students like challenges and he should get that with algebra.

 

With my boys (at least at younger ages), I found a significant correlation to my sitting at the table with them and math being done quickly and well.  I tend to be working on something else or sometimes working through the problems as well.  We check each problem as they do it and try to correct the misconceptions as they show up, rather than at the end of an hour of working problems.  This is especially helpful for mistakes due to inattention or not showing work.  (And far better to make him redo 1-2 problems for lack of demonstrated work than an entire problem set.)

 

Someone also mentioned having her kid write negative numbers in red, to highlight that they were negative (I think this was Regentrude). 

[Ann.without.an.e]

With my boys (at least at younger ages), I found a significant correlation to my sitting at the table with them and math being done quickly and well.  I tend to be working on something else or sometimes working through the problems as well.  We check each problem as they do it and try to correct the misconceptions as they show up, rather than at the end of an hour of working problems.  This is especially helpful for mistakes due to inattention or not showing work.  (And far better to make him redo 1-2 problems for lack of demonstrated work than an entire problem set.)

 

Someone also mentioned having her kid write negative numbers in red, to highlight that they were negative (I think this was Regentrude). 

 

 

If I sit beside him, he completes it all very fast and misses very little.  This is why I know he can do it and he does a great deal of it in his head and still gets it right.  If I walk away....it is all.down.hill from there.  DH says I shouldn't sit beside him.  "He's 13, he can't pack you and take you to college...you have other things to do".  His point is valid.  I am conflicted.

[kiana]

If I sit beside him, he completes it all very fast and misses very little.  This is why I know he can do it and he does a great deal of it in his head and still gets it right.  If I walk away....it is all.down.hill from there.  DH says I shouldn't sit beside him.  "He's 13, he can't pack you and take you to college...you have other things to do".  His point is valid.  I am conflicted.

 

He's 13. College is at least 5 years off.

 

Most boys develop a LOT as far as maturity and self-reliance once they get through the first onrush of puberty.

 

[regentrude]

If I sit beside him, he completes it all very fast and misses very little.  This is why I know he can do it and he does a great deal of it in his head and still gets it right.  If I walk away....it is all.down.hill from there.  DH says I shouldn't sit beside him.  "He's 13, he can't pack you and take you to college...you have other things to do".  His point is valid.  I am conflicted.

 

He is 13. Yes, you can sit beside him and keep him focused. He is not going to college yet ! A lot of growth and maturing will happen in the next five years.

This indicates to me that the issue is not with math, but with focus and attention. Repeating prealgebra is not going to fix focus and attention.

It has been my experience that DS needs much more supervision on my part than DD, and he also needs more supervision than as a ten year old. I do not have to be actively working with him on math, just have to be near and prevent him from becoming distracted.

I have repeatedly read on this board reports from mothers or young teens who reported that the need for involvement and supervision is actually greater at that age than it was a few years earlier; parents who did not realize this sometimes had rude awakenings.

[Jann in TX]

Yes, it is probably an attention issue.

 

I've taught math for almost 30 years... so take what I say with a grain of salt (I also homeschooled 2 dd's through high school).

 

With grades less than 80% I would NOT pass him on to Algebra 1. 

 

He will get so much more out of Algebra 1 when he can focus-- that extra year will make a HUGE difference.

 

You can move him into a program like Lial's Pre-Algebra-- VERY EASY TO TEACH FROM. It will be a step above what he did in 8/7 and will bridge into Algebra 1 concepts but at a more basic level.

 

--

Saxon is NOT traditional by any means!   It is unique.

 

A traditional program has chapters or units that focus on one concept at a time-- ex: Linear equations-- they learn how to plot points and write equations in different forms and graph the equations.  It is all taught in a progressive format-- not scattered throughout  the book 'randomly'.

 

A traditional text will also be progressive between the chapters/units.  Each lesson and each chapter will build on the previous material-- so review is built in and natural.  Students working chapter 5 will need to rely on (use) skills learned in the previous 4 chapters.

 

AOPS is a VERY strong program.  It works for gifted students.  Try the Alcumus first.

 

-

Your son is YOUNG-- way to early to decide if he is STEM material or not!!!

 

I've had students who struggled through Algebra 1-- taking 2 years!!! -- go on to be math majors in college-- one even has his PHD in math!

 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Decisions, decisions, decisions.  I will use pre-algebra for 8th, as planned.  I will resort to sit beside him since it seems to work as well as magic fairy dust.  Now I just need to decide whether to use Saxon pre-algebra or switch to AoPS or thinkwell.  I already own Saxon, so that is a huge plus.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

FWIW, I learned to knit just so I had something to do when I was sitting with my older kids while they did their math. 

 

Kids' development is not linear.  They often need more help when they are working on new, harder skills. 

 

As a (poor) analogy, you're not going to hand him a driver's manual and the keys and say, hey, at 16 you should have a good attention span and maturity.  Rather, you will spend a lot of time modeling, giving him specific driving attention and being with him as he drives more and in new situations. 

 

And as a couple other people have said, the teen years are also rife with hormones.  It would be far better to take a lower key, supported path to higher math than to decide now that the higher levels and everything that build on them are out of reach.

[8filltheheart]

I sit and do math beside my kids for alg, geo, and the first 1/2 of alg 2 (I sink near the 2nd 1/2 of alg 2.  My brain is too old!)   I have found it easier to teach by doing the problems beside them, especially when grading geo proofs. It also keeps my brain ready to teach the next one the next time around. I sit near my kids (but don't do the math ;) ) all the way through elementary school.   Not sure why, but presence always makes math go more smoothly.  

 

Once they hit 2nd 1/2 of alg 2, though, it is pretty much them teaching me.

[Ellie]

Decisions, decisions, decisions.  I will use pre-algebra for 8th, as planned.  I will resort to sit beside him since it seems to work as well as magic fairy dust.  Now I just need to decide whether to use Saxon pre-algebra or switch to AoPS or thinkwell.  I already own Saxon, so that is a huge plus.  

 

But wait...didn't you say he already did Math 87? Then he has already done "pre-algebra." The next thing would be Algebra 1.

[Ann.without.an.e]

But wait...didn't you say he already did Math 87? Then he has already done "pre-algebra." The next thing would be Algebra 1.

 

 

Yes, he completed Saxon 8/7 this year and he will be in pre-algebra next.  He didn't score high enough on tests to justify skipping pre-algebra.  Had he scored better, that would be a different scenario.

[Teachin'Mine]

Yes, he completed Saxon 8/7 this year and he will be in pre-algebra next.  He didn't score high enough on tests to justify skipping pre-algebra.  Had he scored better, that would be a different scenario.

 

Everything I say is just my opinion and I haven't dealt with this situation, but in looking at the numbers, I'd find it hard to draw a line between 80 and 79.3 (edited 79.2), especially if the errors were just due to carelessness and not due to conceptual problems.   Again, just my opinion.   Since you already have Saxon Algebra 1/2, have you considered just giving your son the tests over the summer allowing him to test out?   I'd make it very clear that it's in his best interest to be careful and to write down all the steps as you'll be deciding which level he'll go to next.   You could do the same thing with a different publisher's text if you've decided to switch from Saxon.  What does he want to do?

 

We had the opposite situation.  Dd finished 8/7 and did well enough to move on, but I thought the next level was Algebra 1/2.  I thought she was just too young to go to algebra.  I spoke with a math teacher at Saxon publishing and they strongly suggested she move on.  Dd did not want to repeat anything.  I told her we'd do algebra but would always have the option of dropping back to Algebra 1/2.  The teacher and my dd were right. 

 

The one thing I would suggest you work on with him, whichever level and whichever text, is writing down all the steps.  It's important IMO to get the steps down in writing even when it's easy to do in their head, because eventually the problems will become too complex for that.  

[lewelma]

I tutor math and have found that it is *very* important to analyse those 'careless errors.'  Not just labelling them 'careless' and moving on.  I discuss with my students the need to reduce their error rate.  Back when problems had one line, a 10% error rate still left you with 90% on the text, but once problems have 5 steps each, a 10% error rate will earn you an F. I tell them that their goal is to reduce their error rate to 1%. 

 

So how do you do this?

1) you need to analyse each and every error and figure out *specifically* what you did wrong.

2) you need to track your errors in some sort of chart.  One of my students, for example, had the columns: multiplication error, negative numbers, poor handwriting, adding fractions wrong, forgetting about like terms, etc.

3) analyse your chart and pick 1 or 2 things to improve on at first.  and at the top of each page in your notebook write in red the 2 things you are working on that week like negative numbers and handwriting

4) continue to keep track of your errors and see if you are improving in your focus area

5) repeat

 

Sometimes, certain categories need to be spread out, like handwriting.  So one of my kids currently has:

1) 2 and z are different, and 6 and b are different

2) equal signs are parallel and centered (they were looking like a negative and an underline)

3) no flicky x's

4) space the terms out and shrink the size of the + so it does not look like a t

5) exponents need to be smaller and elevated (his were just somewhat smaller and somewhat elevated)

etc

 

For some kids (and maybe most kids), calling them careless errors does not make them go away.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Serenade]

One thing about Saxon is that it uses a spiral approach, not only to instruction, but also to the review in the mixed practice sets.  For some kids, that is a great choice, because it gives lots of review and keeps each piece of new knowledge small.  For other kids, there isn't enough practice on newly introduced concepts. 

 

For my kids, Saxon worked great up until pre-algebra.  Then they really needed more hang time with new topics.  They needed to work with a single concept and take it to extremes before moving along. 

 

To me a traditional program instructs the student in the concept, then provides practice.  Saxon does this, but adds the spiral approach to instruction.

Ah, I get it now. I was thinking a non-traditional approach to actually solving problems, but not the way the book was set up. Anyhow, that makes perfect sense. I chose Saxon because of the spiral approach. It really helps my ADHDish son from having forgetful brain glitches.

 

 

Other programs might use a discovery method, where the student is walked along (more or less successfully) in discovering how the math works by working through sample problems or exercises. An explanation might follow. Then the new concept would be applied.  I think AoPS does this really well.  But it is a very deep drink from a very high pressure hose.  Other programs popular in schools may use a discovery approach, but IMHO often fall short in making sure the student actually understands what they are doing and how it relates to other situations.

 

FWIW, other math programs do have spiral review. But they typically don't use a spiral approach to how lessons themselves are scheduled. Review comes either in specific review lessons or in how the concepts build on each other.

Sometimes I wish that Saxon had some extra optional review or practice. Some concepts are really hard to learn by just doing two or three problems a day. I know that last year at the very end of Saxon Algebra I, there were quite a few problems on the last two tests that were only covered in the last six lessons or so, and there was simply not enough practice available to fully learn and understand the concepts. At least for my son. I had my son repeat some of the problems on different days and then I searched for extra practice problems in other texts I have. It was tedious, and I wished there was extra practice options available. To me, this is the main thing I don't like about Saxon, that when a kid comes to an area that is difficult, there are no options for additional practice.

 

 

FWIW #2, because of the way Saxon is constructed, I think it is pretty important to be doing all of the mixed practice in each lesson.  To do odd problems only means that there is a significant portion of the review that will be skipped.  Also the pre-lesson work is often structured to be a preview of the day's lesson.  When we were doing Saxon, I found that there was a SIGNIFICANT improvement in understanding when we stopped skipping problems.

We do all of the problems, but man, it took a long time last year in Algebra I. I think we spent too much time on math. This year with Algebra 2 he is doing a half a lesson per day instead of a full one. He will still do every problem, but over 2 days instead of one. He won't quite finish the book, even doing some this summer and next summer, but I guess it's OK to carry a little over to his 10th grade year, especially since the book is a year of Algebra 2, along with a semester of Geometry. I'm hoping the shorter lessons will help improve mathitude (math-attitude!)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Look in the back of the book. There may be supplemental problems there.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I have really stressed out about this.  I have decided to sit beside him.  I think that will solve our issues.  I ordered Lial's prealgebra to preview.  Regardless of the program or level we choose, I have considered giving him the opportunity to test out of some of the material and let him begin where he needs to be, rather than repeating unnecessary material.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have really stressed out about this.  I have decided to sit beside him.  I think that will solve our issues.  I ordered Lial's prealgebra to preview.  Regardless of the program or level we choose, I have considered giving him the opportunity to test out of some of the material and let him begin where he needs to be, rather than repeating unnecessary material.  

 

One other thought on the program beginning at a point that is review, that can be a great moment to really make a point about showing work, drawing pictures (where appropriate), and clearly labeling unknowns.  When we used Saxon, I used those early weeks of review to give the boys a momentum boost and to get them back on track with all the processes they knew they were supposed to do, but had slacked off on. 

 

It's easier to be particular about showing work when the work isn't at the top end of what you think you are capable of.  For us, not rushing right into the on target harder lessons let them go back to not disliking or dreading math. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

One other thought on the program beginning at a point that is review, that can be a great moment to really make a point about showing work, drawing pictures (where appropriate), and clearly labeling unknowns.  When we used Saxon, I used those early weeks of review to give the boys a momentum boost and to get them back on track with all the processes they knew they were supposed to do, but had slacked off on. 

 

It's easier to be particular about showing work when the work isn't at the top end of what you think you are capable of.  For us, not rushing right into the on target harder lessons let them go back to not disliking or dreading math. 

 

 

I definitely considered doing this.  It would be a good review for me too ;)  

[gardening momma]

8/7 simply has some pre-algebra in it, but it is not a full pre-algebra program.  I even had my mathematical child complete both courses.  I've "heard" that skipping Saxon pre-algebra is usually a mistake and lays a weak foundation.  Maybe I heard wrong?

I would agree with this--in school I took Saxon 7/6, skipped Algebra 1/2 (pre-algebra), and took Algebra 1 & 2. I struggled a bit in Alg 1, but did OK--but I think I could have done better with Alg 1/2 first. The teacher allowed us (by invitation only--and I had to ask for my invitation ;) ) to skip pre-algebra and go on to Alg 1 if we got an A in 7/6 (I think I was borderline B+/A-). I struggled in Alg 2, but that's mostly because I didn't bother to do my homework. (ETA: this was late 80's, so the progression of the books may be different now. My school did 7/6, Alg 1/2, then Alg 1. No 8/7. Or I might have it wrong and we did 8/7 before 1/2. Maybe I took 8/7 then Alg 1. Maybe you shouldn't listen to me! :) )

[Mike in SA]

Eh, after 8/7 just jump to AoPS prealgebra.  ;)  It certainly isn't redundant!

[stupidusername]

OP: Stephen Hake recommends Saxon 8/7 followed by Saxon Course 3 followed by the old Saxon Algebra 1 book. Here is a link to the Course 3 book:

http://www.amazon.com/Saxon-Math-Course-2007-Student/dp/1591418844

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

When I was in high school, 8/7 was the remedial course.  You did 7/6 and then Algebra 1/2 unless you needed more practice.  If you needed 8/7, it was because you weren't ready for Algebra 1/2, and then you did Algebra 1/2 and then Algebra 1.  Otherwise, why even bother with 8/7 if it prepared you for Algebra 1 the same way Algebra 1/2 did?  FWIW, I hear 8/7 is the least favorite book of many kids.