lewelma Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I am a firm believer that kids need to learn to read difficult nonfiction material, both in textbook format and in book format. But as I am looking at CK12 for biology for my younger, I am really liking all the videos. And I am a bit torn. My younger has a history of not wanted to read anything that he kind of already knows about through his documentary watching. So I am wondering if he is going to watch the little videos and then avoid the reading. Obviously, he could learn the material in either way, but I think that it is important to develop the reading skills because as you go up in education, less and less learning will be done by way of video (I'm thinking right now of my dh's PhD he is working on and there is certainly no video component for all those journal articles!) So, I'd like to start a discussion about how you evaluate how much text based vs video based learning you should include in a course. How you get them to mesh together and work synergistically? What do you do if you find that your kids are less likely to want to read if a video option is available. Or perhaps you find that multiple media allow for teaching different types of study skills. I'd like to talk about neuro-typical children, because I know that video components can be a lifesaver for kids with LD. But that is not really what I am talking about. And I am also aware that some video components like The Great Courses Vandiver's lectures on the Illiad and Odyssey really help with the reading of the original fiction texts, but that is also not what I am talking about. I am really taking about having the option to learn the same material through different media (book, video, etc), and the implications to general learning skills if a child chooses the easier video option. Thanks in advanced for your insights! Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I agree that documentaries are great for building enthusiasm and for things like history, really a picture is worth a thousand words. But I'm currently looking at genetics. He can watch some lectures on Mendel and his peas, and some lectures on how genetics works. And this information completely overlaps with the reading. Why would he want to do the reading if he can just watch the lectures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Ruth, Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth. I do not want my kids to spend too much time via video learning. I think documentaries make great follow-up or great intro, but not primary learning. Why? It boils down to amt of information and how long they have to process it. Documentaries can cover the equivalent of an entire adult book in a couple of hours. Definitely more than the avg kids book in 30 mins. But the pace of info is fast. They might pick up more info initially, but with my kids, it seems like more in simply turns into more "out" (as in falling out of their heads) long term. Initially they seem to have high retention, but unless they follow it up with more in-depth studies, months later it is lost as quickly as it was input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah0000 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Well I don't know about learning styles. All I can say is I personally remember text better than video. Perhaps there's a way to see which way your son learns best, and if its video allow it after he reads the text first, since as you said its a necessary skill. Perhaps he'll also prefer not to watch a video on the same material he learned through reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I started to add this to my previous post, but my computer just ran out of battery. So this is not a response to 8 or Sadie. Just more info. My ds loves nonfiction topics, but does not like to have to actually work to read something difficult. He does not want to have to puzzle over a graph or a diagram -- to have to reference the text, then go back and reread the caption, then really dig in a study the ideas. If you just explain it to him, he is great. He just does not want to personally do the heavy lifting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I started to add this to my previous post, but my computer just ran out of battery. So this is not a response to 8 or Sadie. Just more info. My ds loves nonfiction topics, but does not like to have to actually work to read something difficult. He does not want to have to puzzle over a graph or a diagram -- to have to reference the text, then go back and reread the caption, then really dig in a study the ideas. If you just explain it to him, he is great. He just does not want to personally do the heavy lifting. Which is another valid point. Watching a video is passive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Why would he want to do the reading if he can just watch the lectures?If my boy is suppose to learn from watching the lecture, then he has to make decent notes. Usually he either watch the same lecture a few times or watch and read the readings. I forgot how old your younger is and I can't see signatures on my iPod. My boys like the Miller Levine iBook as a first round for biology. I have an old edition of the big Campbell as well for their reference. My younger boy absorb better from videos but I still make him read. The videos are use as an aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Ruth, Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth. I do not want my kids to spend too much time via video learning. I think documentaries make great follow-up or great intro, but not primary learning. Why? It boils down to amt of information and how long they have to process it. Documentaries can cover the equivalent of an entire adult book in a couple of hours. Definitely more than the avg kids book in 30 mins. But the pace of info is fast. They might pick up more info initially, but with my kids, it seems like more in simply turns into more "out" (as in falling out of their heads) long term. Initially they seem to have high retention, but unless they follow it up with more in-depth studies, months later it is lost as quickly as it was input. I agree. Some of the topics in biology that he is interested in, like genetics, is a bit tough to read through. I sat at the table this morning and ran him through the basics. I'm thinking that this is pretty similar to watching a video. But the video would let him be more independent, which is a very important goal I have for him this year. I'm wondering how to allow him this background knowledge and still keep him motivated to do the reading. I've also considered doing some topics together and with video (like genetics and botany), and then have some topics that he reads about independently (he is currently interested in earth science also). I also have the problem that the CK12 biology text is actually at the perfect level for him, compared to all the other resources I am currently looking through. But either he reads it online which has 2 down points 1) he struggles to read online and 2) the video is all embedded so quite available. Or I have to print print print, which is really a pain in the neck not to mention expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Goodness, you guys have some great ideas. ds is 10, but is an accelerated learner. He has always found fiction to be easier to read than nonfiction, so we have been working on it bit by bit. He reads nonfiction for 30 minutes per day, but has been reading National Geographic which is narrative nonfiction. I have not expected any output from his reading. I just want him to love to read, to learn through reading, and to build up his skills. Last night, we got out Tarbuck's Earth Science, and he was very pleasantly surprised that he could actually read the text and understand it. I'm an not a big fan of textbooks at this age, and would rather he read more 'trade' books, but I will admit that it is VERY difficult to find anything at the proper level of challenge which is why I was so excited to find that CK12 was. But then I saw all the embedded videos.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Taking notes on a lecture would be completely out for this child. We are having enough trouble with writing fast as is. But your point is very valid. If you are learning through lecture, you should be taking notes. Perhaps I need to print this material. sigh. I can give him a little introductory lecture on the stuff that he will find difficult, and then send him off to read. Perhaps I can surprise him with some videos after the reading has been done, to help consolidate the material. Personally, I am much less concerned that he learns this or that, and much more concerned that he learns to read and study challenging material. So I guess I have answered my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Different question. Does anyone else find reading and studying texts online to be difficult? My son also struggles with Hogwarts is Here. I can't figure out if it is the backlight (he always highlights everything in dull pink), the small text (we have enlarged it), the inability to curl up with it (our tablet broke), or the inability to write in it (but he never has before). Books just seem to be better. So much is going online, and I just seem to print print print. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I think it depends on the kid. I have a kid who learns very well through reading. Videos are extra for him. He is using the Miller Levine e-text this year with embedded videos. The videos will enhance his learning, but the bulk of his learning will come from reading. I have another kid who learns very well through videos and activities. Reading is required for him, but I expect the bulk of his knowledge to come after he watches videos. I must confess that I didn't learn well by reading in college and rarely read my textbooks (unless they were literature). I always attended class and listened to the lectures and took notes. I did well that way in college and graduate school. It worked for me. Videos would have been good for me too. I think the most important thing is to help your kid find a way that helps him learn and study best. I didn't figure things out until college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Does anyone else find reading and studying texts online to be difficult? My 9 year old prefers book even after three years of online school. For online textbooks on a tablet, he gets distracted by what else he could do with the tablet. Another thing is he loves to rub the edge of the book as he read. Kind of sensory tactile thing for him. He rubs the edge of the tablet too as he read the classics but the feel is different. For laptop, the viewing angle isn't comfortable for him. For reading on iPad or Kindle, I think he miss the enjoyment of physically flipping pages. He prefers books to ebooks that I print and put into a binder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Listening in. I hear you on the desire for increased independence. Sadly though, much like when I taught them how to do chores for the first time, I find that actively teaching my kids the necessary skills to work independently takes much more of my time than just plain teaching them. That is probably because I am simultaneously teaching, modeling learning, and correcting output plus attitudes and skills. We use a lot of documentaries here, but I tend to use them as follow-up to reading or to whet the appetite for greater knowledge and research about a particular topic. Short of a LD that requires accommodations, I do not think video learning is the ideal primary format for learning (and that is even with my big time VSL kid). I seem to remember an old post of yours on baby-steps toward reading textbooks. Has your younger DS gone through that process? Does he resist it? I despise reading online, even on a tablet. I find reading on a Kindle Paperwhite significantly more tolerable but still not preferable over a hard copy. Can you ask on the high school board about well written texts? DS11 quite enjoyed The Way Life Works. Have you used that one? As far as his problem taking notes, would something like the Inspiration software/app be workable for him? OhElizabeth recommends it all the time and I have been loving it. You can take down thoughts mind map style and the program will translate them to an outline form. Also, apps like Growly Notes and OneNote allow you make multimedia, embedded, creative notes. I think the process can be as valuable as the process for end game learning. Anyway, still listening, even if all that was meaningless... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymonster Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Different question. Does anyone else find reading and studying texts online to be difficult? My son also struggles with Hogwarts is Here. I can't figure out if it is the backlight (he always highlights everything in dull pink), the small text (we have enlarged it), the inability to curl up with it (our tablet broke), or the inability to write in it (but he never has before). Books just seem to be better. So much is going online, and I just seem to print print print. I realize that I am becoming a bit of dinosaur, so my perspective might be outdated. I find reading and studying online to be difficult because I can't make the text "mine." If I really need to learn something, I have to print it out so I can highlight, underline, and take notes in the margins of something (throwback from law school days). There's also the sensory input of paper and pen textures that help to provide feedback. I think that this would be a personal thing, though. If a person is sensory-defensive, that reading online would be better because there would be less sensory input. My son is younger, but with him, I try for multiple "touches" of a concept. We do a quick oral overview, do the reading, and then follow up with video. He's one of those kids that needs to see and hear things multiple times for it to really sink in. That being said, after a discussion/reading/video go-round on a topic, I expect DS to be rock-solid on a topic (except for spelling and math facts...heaven help me). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Listening in. I hear you on the desire for increased independence. Sadly though, much like when I taught them how to do chores for the first time, I find that actively teaching my kids the necessary skills to work independently takes much more of my time than just plain teaching them. That is probably because I am simultaneously teaching, modeling learning, and correcting output plus attitudes and skills. I agree. My goal is not to save me time by making him independent. My goal is to increase the intensity and focus of his own learning by making him take responsibility. I am in it for the long haul, and have been working on it for 1.5 years already. At this point the only subjects he can do independently are Mandarin and Latin. Imagine that in this sciency house! We use a lot of documentaries here, but I tend to use them as follow-up to reading or to whet the appetite for greater knowledge and research about a particular topic. Short of a LD that requires accommodations, I do not think video learning is the ideal primary format for learning (and that is even with my big time VSL kid). Also agree. He watches docos in science and history and loves them, but in the end he MUST be able to read material for class. I have tutored too many students who are failing because they cannot do their homework because if they get stuck they cannot self teach with a text. I seem to remember an old post of yours on baby-steps toward reading textbooks. Has your younger DS gone through that process? Does he resist it? Oh, good memory. We are on the path. It is just that he is different than my older so I am needing to work with a different set of strengths and a different set of weaknesses. At this point he can read and understand National Geographic with ease. I chose that this past year because he really hates broken up text that you find in kids books, and yet could not read the solid text your find in textbooks. So I choose to get him reading narrative nonfiction to get him used to long blocks of text, and chose Nat Geo because it is both interesting and high level. This year my goal is to move him out of narrative nonfiction (or to supplement it), and into more expository text. It does not have to be a textbook, but once again so many kids books with expository text are bitsy, which he hates. The books I used for my older at the same time will likely be unreadable to my younger - Cartoon guide to genetics is in all caps, and the stuff of life has a serious font issue too. Plus they are bitsy in their own way. I'm hoping he can work slowly through The Way Life Works, but also a more bitsy text. So I've been hunting for just that right level of challenge and interest. I think the Monk in the Garden should be good because it is narrative nonfiction but also has quite a bit of genetics worked in, so it will make him fight a bit for it. So when I found ck-12 had good material at a good level for him I was thrilled, but then saw all the videos..... Can you ask on the high school board about well written texts? DS11 quite enjoyed The Way Life Works. Have you used that one? I'm working on my plan for the younger one, so perhaps not the high school board!!! But just ordered The Way Life Works. As far as his problem taking notes, would something like the Inspiration software/app be workable for him? OhElizabeth recommends it all the time and I have been loving it. You can take down thoughts mind map style and the program will translate them to an outline form. Also, apps like Growly Notes and OneNote allow you make multimedia, embedded, creative notes. I think the process can be as valuable as the process for end game learning. Awesome I will look into these! Thanks so much for the ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 I realize that I am becoming a bit of dinosaur, so my perspective might be outdated. I find reading and studying online to be difficult because I can't make the text "mine." If I really need to learn something, I have to print it out so I can highlight, underline, and take notes in the margins of something (throwback from law school days). There's also the sensory input of paper and pen textures that help to provide feedback. I think that this would be a personal thing, though. If a person is sensory-defensive, that reading online would be better because there would be less sensory input. Well, I don't think you are a dinosaur, I think that you know how to actually study. The students I tutor all have online textbooks. When I have asked a couple to show me, they can't because they don't know the password. This is 20 weeks into the term! Seems to me "out of sight, out of mind" applies here. I also think for my younger that it is a tracking issue. A laptop screen can lead to some seriously long lines to keep your eyes on. Plus there are so many fun things you can do with clicking and scrolling. Basically, I find my son gets very distracted by all the fun things he can do. Highlight in red, now yellow. Open a new tab, shrink that one. I'm sure you get the picture. I'm a bit Charlotte Mason about this one. I think that focus is developed by small blocks of perfect focus, rather than large blocks are partial focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegs Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 In my very naive opinion, it sounds like your DS needs to do more non-fiction reading on paper, but that perhaps the online class with embedded videos isn't the best way to do this. Are there supplementary readings you could provide, on content not covered by the videos? Or printed content on another topic altogether? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deee Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I agree completely with AVA - docos to whet the appetite or tidy up at the end, or for rabbit trails or extra interest. The written word is the best teaching tool long term, not just for the content but more importantly for the method. And that's where paper comes in - I've just specified that our homeschool group's book club kids need to bring paper copies of the Merchant of Venice so they can write on them as we read. I want to teach them to dissect the text, to annotate and make it their own. It's that or keep a notebook, which is how I cope with reading online. Paper is far easier, especially for Gen Xers like me. I read scientific articles the same way. I stole the method from a lawyer friend. I wish someone had taught me before I finished school and floundered at Uni. BTW Ruth, I think you have my son. Could you teach him to use the vacuum and washing machine while he's there? He's quite good at lawn mowing and wood chopping already. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Different question. Does anyone else find reading and studying texts online to be difficult? My son also struggles with Hogwarts is Here. I can't figure out if it is the backlight (he always highlights everything in dull pink), the small text (we have enlarged it), the inability to curl up with it (our tablet broke), or the inability to write in it (but he never has before). Books just seem to be better. So much is going online, and I just seem to print print print. I cannot study off the computer. I can read on it for something like these boards (I have computer glasses), but I have to have paper or a tablet in my lap to actually study from. I have problems with backlit and it has a big impact on my ability to focus. I would never make in schools where everything is online now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I teach at a university and I lecture. I lecture because, even IF my students read the textbook, they will still have questions and may need somebody explaining more complex concepts to them verbally. I extensively worked with textbooks as a student, but I still benefited from lectures by live people. So, I believe reading and lectures or videos complement each other. For students, it makes a huge difference whether they read a complete solution of a problem in a textbook (even if they work through all the steps), or whether they see the solution emerge step by step with explanations for each step. I am currently designing an online course and will create videos of problem solutions. IMO, they by far surpass the posting of written out solutions, even if all steps are included. For some topics, especially when complicated processes are discussed, visualization greatly enhances learning. A video can incorporate simulations or animations that make a process much more clear than a series of still images in a textbook. I agree that being able to read complex non-fiction text is an important skill to have, but I also acknowledge that this is not always the most efficient way of learning. We are fortunate that we have the technology available to use video sequences, and I do not think it necessary to be a purist and eschew these new tools. For sciences taught at home, I require my students to begin by reading, and taking notes on, their textbook. After they read, I will add video lectures and animations wherever I think they may be beneficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Different question. Does anyone else find reading and studying texts online to be difficult? I despise reading material online. I could not study with an electronic textbook for a number of reasons. I would always prefer a paper copy of a book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuovonne Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Does anyone else find reading and studying texts online to be difficult? Yes, I find studying a text online to be difficult. While I have no problem reading online, I find studying online text to be much harder. That is why I am having my kids start working with electronic texts so young. I want them to become proficient at using electronic texts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I use video for the greater portion of our learning, but have each of my fluent readers also read non-fiction on the topic. The books aren't always an exact duplicate of the video lecture but are intended to make sure they are reading on the topic and getting full coverage. I would agree that it is much more challenging to have to work out the details of a graph or other chart in a text over video. Often, when we are watching a video I will freeze the image and we work through graphics together. Other times, I allow the video to offer the explanation and see it as a means to teach the student to analyze graphics. I used to be totally uable to retain what I read online, I had to print everything so I could highlight and make notes. I am getting much better. I'm not sure what prompted the changeover. At some point I went from having to read, highlight, take notes for retention to preferring video or online reading. Maybe when I had to go to bifocals??? Anyway, as a youth, I needed a visual component beyond text and achieved that by highlighting a lot. I can see that my sons seem to retain things very well when watching videos. My oldest does just as well when reading without video but doesn't like reading- despite my best efforts. My DD seems to need the static text or image. I think video goes too fast for her. So I give her more text based materials. My boys and I are ADHD, so maybe that influences our learning style? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 For sciences taught at home, I require my students to begin by reading, and taking notes on, their textbook. After they read, I will add video lectures and animations wherever I think they may be beneficial. This is what I have decided to do - reading first, video second. I tried downloading the CK12 text onto paper or a kindle, but it is just way more work than I want to do. So yesterday I bought Miller and Levine Biology for him to read with no distractions associated with the computer. We will be working on focus and reading comprehension. Then, I will let him loose on all the CK12 videos associated with that topic. The main negative is cost as in NZ$130 for a second hand book shipped here! It does weight 6 pounds. sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 I also think that the key is intensity of effort. Watching video passively is very different than actively taking notes, pausing, discussing, etc. I think that my ds likes video because he can watch it passively, not because he thinks he learns better with it. And since I don't do testing, he does not realize that he is not actually learning the material. Thanks for everyone's ideas and insights! Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I tried downloading the CK12 text onto paper or a kindle, but it is just way more work than I want to do. CK12 Biology kindle edition http://www.amazon.com/CK-12-Biology-I-Honors-Foundation-ebook/dp/B0042XA312 CK12 Human Biology - genetics kindle edition http://www.amazon.com/Human-Biology-Genetics-CK-12-Foundation-ebook/dp/B00A0QYLHM CK12 Biology Teacher Edition for Kindle http://www.amazon.com/CK-12-Biology-Teachers-Foundation-ebook/dp/B007W4P9SU I just need to go to books under my kindle fire, look for CK12 and click on buy for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I am a firm believer that kids need to learn to read difficult nonfiction material, both in textbook format and in book format. But as I am looking at CK12 for biology for my younger, I am really liking all the videos. And I am a bit torn. My younger has a history of not wanted to read anything that he kind of already knows about through his documentary watching. So I am wondering if he is going to watch the little videos and then avoid the reading. Obviously, he could learn the material in either way, but I think that it is important to develop the reading skills because as you go up in education, less and less learning will be done by way of video (I'm thinking right now of my dh's PhD he is working on and there is certainly no video component for all those journal articles!) So, I'd like to start a discussion about how you evaluate how much text based vs video based learning you should include in a course. How you get them to mesh together and work synergistically? What do you do if you find that your kids are less likely to want to read if a video option is available. Or perhaps you find that multiple media allow for teaching different types of study skills. I'd like to talk about neuro-typical children, because I know that video components can be a lifesaver for kids with LD. But that is not really what I am talking about. And I am also aware that some video components like The Great Courses Vandiver's lectures on the Illiad and Odyssey really help with the reading of the original fiction texts, but that is also not what I am talking about. I am really taking about having the option to learn the same material through different media (book, video, etc), and the implications to general learning skills if a child chooses the easier video option. Thanks in advanced for your insights! Ruth in NZ First, what is CK12? Sounds interesting. Oh. I see the links now. I'll check that, though more info would be good too. Well, here is what might be a different perspective. My son does have some LD, so I know that is not what you want to hear about. So far as I know though I was presumptively nt in childhood (had some brain injury later so that may not be so now), could read well, went to Ivy League schools and that sort of thing. That said, I learned things better, when available, that I had seen something about on Nova or other such programming back then -- there were VCRs, but my family did not have one. Maybe it is partly because I did not see as many, but even now I can remember some favorite such documentaries. I don't think it is just "easier" but that when excellent videos are available, it is actually better. With text one is left to imagine a great deal, and while with fiction that can be wonderful, with factual matters, it can be better to have a full menu of visual material so that the imaginary picture conjured up by the words alone does not end up being off from reality. Having a lot of more accurate pictures in one's head can then help to later read other things where there will be no pictures and get a more accurate understanding. Even for fiction this can be so. What I imagine when reading a Dickens novel was one thing before I had ever been to London, another after that, and yet another after seeing a BBC dramatization where they had tried to show accurate depictions of period clothes, coaches and so on. For science too, things like having just text to describe say mitosis, is one thing, then having drawn pictures is another, and finally having a movie version is yet another thing. Or similarly a movie like In the Living Body, can give a very different perspective than just reading about processes and trying to imagine, say peristalsis, rather than seeing what it is like via a camera view inside the body. If the only videos are too simplistic, that is another matter. But if it is truly the same material and he likes learning by video, let him. But you could require discussion, or writing or other output to make sure it is really getting learned well--reading could be passive too, but it sounds like when reading there is note taking etc., but there is no reason there cannot be that when watching a film. So, from my personal perspective, I would say to let him learn science or history etc. however he learns it best. And at the same time, make reading of textbooks, journal articles and so on, a separate endeavor for its own sake to learn how to do that kind of reading as a skill for when it is needed. I would not try to time balance these, but rather make the reading be what is needed to learn how to do that kind of reading, and let the video watching be what is needed to learn what he learns that way...filled in by reading for more detail and information if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 Thanks Pen, for your detailed reply. We are really a skills based house here, not exactly the 3Rs but I definitely lean away from content study when my kids are younger. I just let them learn history and science and whatever else they fancy by any method that they choose. My younger is currently working his way through all the Modern Marvels documentaries about infrastructure, and he has learned so much! But what I am actually talking about in this thread is about teaching him to read complex material. Sure, when you study, you can (and often should) use many many methods to help you master the material , but reading is a key method that I think should be learned. In this way, a student is not reliant on a teacher or video, which are not always available. Right now, ds is not actually *studying* biology, rather I am using biology to teach him how to read nonfiction material, which he struggles a little bit with. What I was concerned about was the imbedded video in the CK12 site distracting him from the skill goal, reading, that is actually what I want him to learn. Does that make sense? You may not have read one of my later posts, but I have decided to have him read Miller and Levine Biology first, and then supplement with the CK12 videos second. Kind of the best of both worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Yes. If reading is the goal, and science just a topic to read about, I would certainly emphasize the reading aspect. Still, you might want to try an experimental approach and see what happens if you use audiovisual material first and then the reading versus the reading and then the audiovisual material. When adults are reading texts and journal articles and so on, a lot of the time they actually do have the background already to allow the reading to be fleshed out with knowledge from the lab or workshop or other real life hands on work in a field, so there is already a huge context into which the new information is being placed. Reminds me of the article that someone posted from some Stanford research that said students learn better if the experimental hands on learning comes first. To my way of thinking the audiovisual learning is more like hands-on learning. Still that again presumes that learning the science is a key factor, rather than that the key is just learning to read more complex material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 If it was something with a media component, we would still begin the study by reading it. The media then followed as a way to kind of cement it all together. I found it worked well that way, for us. The media part was always something we looked forward to as well. Kind of reward at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLMom Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I used to be just a book only type, but now that I have a dyslexic child, I have learned a lot and changed my mind. There are many ways to learn and learning through reading, quality movies, and audio listening are all valid in my opinion. If the child has no learning issue, I would include some of all but mostly reading if they will go on to higher education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Ruth, Reading your response to Pen makes me wonder about the actual books you are using. Is it possible that you are making a leap to too complex materials and need to bridge between levels? There are many books geared toward the 10-13 age crowd that are more thorough than simple children's books, yet they are not so complex as to make a younger student feel like they are drowning in too much info. A 10 yr old may not be ready for reading dense books. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 Ruth, Reading your response to Pen makes me wonder about the actual books you are using. Is it possible that you are making a leap to too complex materials and need to bridge between levels? There are many books geared toward the 10-13 age crowd that are more thorough than simple children's books, yet they are not so complex as to make a younger student feel like they are drowning in too much info. A 10 yr old may not be ready for reading dense books. Just a thought. Totally agree with you 8. I am *really* struggling to find the right level of book for this child. Too easy -- he feels it is babyish and he already knows the info. Too hard - obviously trouble. Too bitsy -- he just hates it. But looking for solid text for a 10-13 year old is really just leading me down the biography path, and he is excellent at narrative nonfiction having read National Geographic for a year. I would like to see him put a toe into expository type text, as in 30 minutes 2x per week. The best books I ever found were the Walking with Dinosaur books, because they were 1) solid text, 2) narrative nonfiction for 80% of the book, 3) had one page of expository text (not bitsy) every 5 pages for him to have to really think about and study, and 4) contained lots of images. He loved them; I loved them. Sigh. I've been to the library, up and down the isles, in all sorts of topics - science, history, archaeology, technology, etc, and I'm really struggling to find something good. I have come to believe that this is one of the negatives of having my child watch so many documentaries as a youngster -- he knows so much about so many topics that it is hard to find him books that he can *read* that still have information in them that he does not already know. I've looked at the samples of Miller and Levine, and they are no more difficult than National Geographic. I have high hopes, but we will see. If I have to wait a few years I will. DS loves biology and would really like to learn more, so I am hoping to make this the hook. I am very very open to specific suggestions for books that this child would like! However, I have just about spent my budget so don't make them expensive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I have come to believe that this is one of the negatives of having my child watch so many documentaries as a youngster -- he knows so much about so many topics that it is hard to find him books that he can *read* that still have information in them that he does not already know. Along these lines, I'm thinking I'm glad we didn't do documentaries. ;) She would rather read than watch. She had no screen time as a youngster, and now she isn't overly drawn to watching when she can read or attend a live talk. (We do use videos when they offer more than reading does, which isn't often for us.) She still knows lots about various topics, but from reading and gradually building those muscles. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I've looked at the samples of Miller and Levine, and they are no more difficult than National Geographic. I have high hopes, but we will see. If I have to wait a few years I will. DS loves biology and would really like to learn more, so I am hoping to make this the hook. Scientific American? Not all articles are interesting but if your library has past issues, maybe some might interest your son. There are lots more science magazines with biology content at my local libraries but I'm home today. Older boy read the Miller Levine book because of cladograms and phylogeny. We end up reading some university lecture notes too :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 There are lots more science magazines with biology content at my local libraries but I'm home today. We get a slew of magazines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 Scientific American is just slightly too hard, and the Odyssey is too easy. We get both. But I will go to the library and look at the magazine selection -- I had not even considered this route. Our library (the downtown central library) has tons of magazine titles, as in 1000s. Great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saddlemomma Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I have learned with my DD that watching a video after reading a concept helps to cement the concept, particularly if it was a difficult concept to read about. For that reason, I usually require DD to read her assignments first, do whatever accountability questions required, and then watch short videos to cement the concept. My DD wants to learn about virology next year. I am also using CK-12 to make my own flexbook on bacteria and viruses from their Biology text. What you could do is make your own flexbook from the CK-12 Biology text. Take out the videos and their associated questions. Once the reading is done, let him watch the videos and do the questions. You can easily find the embedded videos on YouTube. This will do two things for you: force him to read the material prior to watching the videos, and you will know how well he retains info from a video and translates it into responses to questions from the video content. Since we do school using Onenote, I will be printing a pdf of our flexbook to Onenote. The embedded links don't work in a pdf. Therefore, I will link the videos to Onenote via YouTube as a separate assignment following her reading assignment. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Would this be a helpful book? It is reading in a different way - not textbook - but I saw these books recommended elsewhere and the genetics one came to mind when I read your post. http://www.amazon.com/Cartoon-Guide-Genetics-Updated-Edition/dp/0062730991/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405113387&sr=8-1&keywords=cartoon+genetics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 Thanks, Saddlemomma, for writing all that out. The main problem I am having with altering the CK12 material is that is is so s.l.o.w. as in 20 -40 seconds to load each page. I don't know if if it a NZ problem, but boy oh boy I gave up in frustration. As for the Kindle version that Arcadia linked to, we have the black and white smaller kindles, and the images embedded in the text were close to unreadable. As much as I think that the text is well written, it is very quickly becoming not worth my time. Which is why I just bought the Miller and Levine Biology book. Equally good text, but easier for me to implement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 Would this be a helpful book? It is reading in a different way - not textbook - but I saw these books recommended elsewhere and the genetics one came to mind when I read your post. http://www.amazon.com/Cartoon-Guide-Genetics-Updated-Edition/dp/0062730991/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405113387&sr=8-1&keywords=cartoon+genetics Sigh. No. My older used this book at this age and loved it. Younger, not so much. He does not quite get the humor, and he really struggles to read the font (all caps in a cutsy font). I got it out of the library just a few days ago, and it and a couple of others that older used but younger can't, are what led me on this journey to find something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I think adult Discovery magazine and Smithsonian may be a little easier than Scientific American. ETA: The adult Discovery magazine was a favorite of ds at your son's age--I do not think it is actually any harder reading than National Geographic or Odyssey (if you mean the Carus group one), but is more mature seeming as to content and tone than Odyssey. There is a kid magazine by the same name, but that is not what I mean. Currently he is reading Smithsonian and liking that. Discovery is pretty much all science. Smithsonian covers a broader topic range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 12, 2014 Author Share Posted July 12, 2014 I think adult Discovery magazine and Smithsonian may be a little easier than Scientific American. ETA: The adult Discovery magazine was a favorite of ds at your son's age--I do not think it is actually any harder reading than National Geographic or Odyssey (if you mean the Carus group one), but is more mature seeming as to content and tone than Odyssey. There is a kid magazine by the same name, but that is not what I mean. Currently he is reading Smithsonian and liking that. Discovery is pretty much all science. Smithsonian covers a broader topic range. Just checked, we have Discover and Smithsonian at the library. Off for a walk.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Hmmmm. I'd have to go and look at our book shelves, but my kids read science books throughout middle school and none of them fit the description you are giving. We detest books like Usborne books. They read books. Maybe we have a better selection here? But, I have never had a problem finding solid books for my kids to engage in reading. My brain is just zapped, but the Our Living World of Nature Series are the ones my 6th grader was reading when school ended. They are geared toward 5th grade to adult. They were published in the 60s/70s but the information is still relevant today. This link has rapidly flipping pages of the inside of the book on the life of the forest. https://archive.org/details/lifeofforest00mcco The books are ecology oriented and my middle schoolers love them. Here is a link to a biosphere text which has numerous titles from the series listed for additional reading. http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/genbio/guttman/student/olc2/chap25readings.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Just checked, we have Discover and Smithsonian at the library. Off for a walk.... Ooops. Yep. It was Discover--no y on the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 12, 2014 Author Share Posted July 12, 2014 8, I think it must be the library's selection. The kid section is all bitsy text, like Usborne but from many different publishers. The teen section is about bullying, sex, drugs, and rock n roll. Not a science book to be seen. sigh. The adult section is a lovely mix of very technical books (as in I used some of them in my graduate studies), pseudoscience, and other lay science. So it is really hard to separate the wheat from the chaff! And then today at the library, he told me Discover was too easy. :banghead: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Ruth, I am not sure how the whole open library system works, but https://archive.org/details/texts took me there when I followed the links for The Life of the Forest. Open Library took me to the World Catalog and then on to the New Zealand National Library. Based on what is posted on the NZNL website, books like I linked are available to check out and it says 4 day delivery time. I don't know if they ship to you, to a local library, or if it is only from storage to the National Library, but it might be worth checking into to see if you can open up a broader range of books if it is actually something you can access in a convenient way. http://nlnzcat.natlib.govt.nz/vwebv/holdingsInfo?searchId=26373&recCount=10&recPointer=0&bibId=863424&searchType=7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted July 12, 2014 Author Share Posted July 12, 2014 Thanks for doing all that searching for me! I have checked on interlibrary loan, and it is $15/book for 2 weeks, which seems a bit steep to me. But I have not looked into the National Library (which is different), so will do that. Thanks for the idea. The other thing I saw today was a list of books recommended by Discover. They looked easier than the ones recommended by Scientific American or the Economist. So I might try getting lists and seeing what the library has, rather than trying to browse millions of books in the adult section (because the kids section is too bitsy). On another thread, some recommended a botany book that looked awesome, and my library has it. I just think these little gems are buried deep in the stacks. Also at the library today I just hit the jackpot. A lovely librarian took me aside for 30 minutes while younger was looking at magazines, and walked me through their online resources. Holy Cow! By being a resident of the city, I can search 5000+ journals at home and download any article! I just could not believe that I did not know about this. I can't get the entire magazine, only articles, but wow is this going to revolutionize how we do research papers! and science fairs! I think my younger could really get into reading exactly what he wants to read, by doing a search and downloading the articles. They also carry 400 complete newspapers, including some in Mandarin. So much information, so little time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 :) I remember the first time I realized we could access the library's online databases. It does make things easier. Far cry from microfiche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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