DS7 says he's "not good" at history...

[Amy M]

The other day, my son said he's not good at history when I mentioned it was time for history (SOTW2). I really want him to like history. I like what we're doing and know it's leagues better than what I grew up with.

 

I tried to encourage him that it's not that he's "not good" at history, but that he needs to grow in his narration skills. Rather than using WWE2's separate workbook, I've been trying to use SOTW2's readings and AG questions for the narration portions of WWE2; I've been trying to teach him to summarize the SOTW readings.

 

(I use dictation and copywork sentences for WWE2 from our literature that corresponds with history. I wanted to streamline our subjects, so wanted to combine WWE2 and SOTW2. Thankfully, I've seen his enjoyment in reading take off this year when we stepped away from ABeka's phonics-controlled readers and got into real books.)

 

So now I'm wondering if I should not try to combine the two--WWE2 with SOTW. But even if I used the WWE2 workbook for writing, I know I would still be trying to apply those concepts in history, so I'm not sure that adding on more work by using the workbook for summaries in addition to history narrations would be helpful. I believe that he does like history, but doesn't like writing--trying to summarize or write down dictations. 

 

Any suggestions on how to make it more enjoyable? Or do we both just need to tough out this "harder" aspect to writing across the curriculum?

 

I also think part of the problem may be spelling. It is difficult for him to write down his own sentences, even when I dictate them for him, because he's not a natural speller. We pause so often to spell out a word that he forgets the sentence multiple times before getting to the end, and it takes a while. A not-fun while.

[Farrar]

Well, I know that most people try to do skills via content and I like that in theory, but I see enjoyment and exposure as the number one goals for content in the grammar stage and if the skills are getting in the way of that, I'd break it up.

 

When my kids were 7 yo, the majority of history was reading aloud, stories, looking at pictures, watching videos, going to museums and living history sites, and doing craft projects.  Did they memorize a lot?  Nope.  But do they like history now?  Absolutely.

 

The WTM style of narration was just...  not really for us.  It's very formulaic and not my style at all.  I tended to let the kids do a more CMish open ended, retelling narration.  They also used to struggle to narrate on command, so I used to make things more like a discussion.  So we did practice narration with history, but it wasn't the focus, cuddling on the sofa and reading all those books and seeing the art of the time at the galleries and making little model pyramids and castles and so forth was the thrust of our history studies.

 

I get the need to practice this stuff, but you probably want to prioritize your goals.  They may be different from mine, of course.  And you may be able to add more fun extras and still keep the narration, but if it were me, I would say drop it for awhile and then ease into it in small ways.

[crazyforlatin]

For history we've only read books and listened to audiobooks, and DD loves history. She reads a lot on her own, and if she finds something interesting, she'll naturally want to share it with me. I would have liked to practice skills with content subjects, and I did do that for a very, so very, short time; it happened that I didn't enjoy this process, so I dropped it.

[Ellie]

The other day, my son said he's not good at history when I mentioned it was time for history (SOTW2). I really want him to like history. I like what we're doing and know it's leagues better than what I grew up with.

 

I tried to encourage him that it's not that he's "not good" at history, but that he needs to grow in his narration skills. Rather than using WWE2's separate workbook, I've been trying to use SOTW2's readings and AG questions for the narration portions of WWE2; I've been trying to teach him to summarize the SOTW readings.

 

(I use dictation and copywork sentences for WWE2 from our literature that corresponds with history. I wanted to streamline our subjects, so wanted to combine WWE2 and SOTW2. Thankfully, I've seen his enjoyment in reading take off this year when we stepped away from ABeka's phonics-controlled readers and got into real books.)

 

So now I'm wondering if I should not try to combine the two--WWE2 with SOTW. But even if I used the WWE2 workbook for writing, I know I would still be trying to apply those concepts in history, so I'm not sure that adding on more work by using the workbook for summaries in addition to history narrations would be helpful. I believe that he does like history, but doesn't like writing--trying to summarize or write down dictations. 

 

Any suggestions on how to make it more enjoyable? Or do we both just need to tough out this "harder" aspect to writing across the curriculum?

 

I also think part of the problem may be spelling. It is difficult for him to write down his own sentences, even when I dictate them for him, because he's not a natural speller. We pause so often to spell out a word that he forgets the sentence multiple times before getting to the end, and it takes a while. A not-fun while.

 

See, I'd just do the reading and not require narration and whatnot, not for a child his age, and especially not if he's saying he isn't good at history. How tragic for him to feel that way!! And if that doesn't work, if he doesn't feel better about the whole thing, then I'd drop SOTW in a New York second. History is too marvelous for a 6yo to be bogged down in narrations and summaries and all that.

 

[regentrude]

My goal for any history teaching at elementary age would be to get my student to be interested and excited about history. Anything that gets in the way would get cut out. So, if he feels "not good" at history because of the narrations, skip them. Read books, watch documentaries, visit lots of museums and reenactments and let him develop an interest first.  I see no need to make a 7 y/o do formal narrations or summaries in content subjects - you might try just having an informal conversation. Simply talk about the stuff you see and read, and let him tell you about the books he reads.

[Roadrunner]

Narrate WWE and let history be fun! If he loves to draw, you can get him to draw an illustration for each chapter and even write a sentence, or two, or three. If he isn't into drawing, just read and discuss.

[Milknhoney]

We just finished SOTW 4 and it has been a struggle all the way through. Here are a few suggestions based on what I've learned. 

 

Do I understand correctly that you are having him write out his narrations? If that is the case, I would quit that immediately and instead type them out for him as he dictates to you. That is WAY too much for him to do on his own at that age. I made the mistake of trying that in year 3. It was still way too much writing and nothing like writing to suck the joy right out of it.

 

I would let WWE be the medium through which he learns how to do narration. Enforce what he learns to do in WWE-2 in the next year's history. For now just let his narrations contain whatever comes out of his mouth. Use the review questions as a guide. If he does okay answering the questions, maybe he doesn't need to give you a narration at all if it causes too much grief.

 

Also, some of the chapters of SOTW lend themselves better to narration than others. I found that my son did just fine in the chapters that are story-like. He also did great in the chapters talking about inventions and so forth because he is science-oriented. Some of the SOTW chapters just sort of talk about stuff. They are hard to retell. In that case you just need to use your own judgement and let that chapter slide with a little bit less.

 

It took me all the way until this year to figure out that it is okay to SKIP chapters that you find irrelevant!! Covering less content became less overwhelming, which allowed my son to do much, much better at the material that we did cover. He enjoyed this last year so much more because of it. 

[trulycrabby]

My goal for any history teaching at elementary age would be to get my student to be interested and excited about history. Anything that gets in the way would get cut out. So, if he feels "not good" at history because of the narrations, skip them. Read books, watch documentaries, visit lots of museums and reenactments and let him develop an interest first.  I see no need to make a 7 y/o do formal narrations or summaries in content subjects - you might try just having an informal conversation. Simply talk about the stuff you see and read, and let him tell you about the books he reads.

This is almost exactly what we do. :)

[Amy M]

Do I understand correctly that you are having him write out his narrations?

 

Also, some of the chapters of SOTW lend themselves better to narration than others. I found that my son did just fine in the chapters that are story-like. He also did great in the chapters talking about inventions and so forth because he is science-oriented. Some of the SOTW chapters just sort of talk about stuff. They are hard to retell. In that case you just need to use your own judgement and let that chapter slide with a little bit less. Hmm, I didn't think about that.

 

It took me all the way until this year to figure out that it is okay to SKIP chapters that you find irrelevant!! Covering less content became less overwhelming, which allowed my son to do much, much better at the material that we did cover. He enjoyed this last year so much more because of it. Another good point!

 

I don't have him write out the entire narration. After the review questions, I help him write a summary (which I write for him on the back of his coloring page). Then I choose a sentence about the length of what the WWE instructor text suggests, that I hope will not be too absurdly hard for his spelling difficulties and dictate that one sentence to him.

 

Is it possible that he's not ready for this level of summary/dictation? For those who suggest I stop combining WWE with SOTW, do you suggest dropping the WTM style of writing (specifically summarizing) for 2nd grade altogether, or just going back to the workbook? I'm wondering if summarizing would be something he'd get naturally so much better when he's older, maybe more approaching the logic stage?

[Farrar]

I don't have him write out the entire narration. After the review questions, I help him write a summary (which I write for him on the back of his coloring page). Then I choose a sentence about the length of what the WWE instructor text suggests, that I hope will not be too absurdly hard for his spelling difficulties and dictate that one sentence to him.

 

Is it possible that he's not ready for this level of summary/dictation? For those who suggest I stop combining WWE with SOTW, do you suggest dropping the WTM style of writing (specifically summarizing) for 2nd grade altogether, or just going back to the workbook? I'm wondering if summarizing would be something he'd get naturally so much better when he's older, maybe more approaching the logic stage?

 

This sounds like an enormous amount of work for a 7 yo.  If I had made my kids do that at that age, it would have killed history for them too.  Narration should be oral at that age unless a child is very advanced.  And dictation should be either prepared or using mostly words a child can spell.  If he's struggling with spelling, you're not doing him any favors by making history be about spelling.

[Milknhoney]

Is it possible that he's not ready for this level of summary/dictation? For those who suggest I stop combining WWE with SOTW, do you suggest dropping the WTM style of writing (specifically summarizing) for 2nd grade altogether, or just going back to the workbook? I'm wondering if summarizing would be something he'd get naturally so much better when he's older, maybe more approaching the logic stage?

 

My son's least favorite subject was WWE! Being given a limited number of sentences in which to select the most important facts of the passage is a lot more challenging than just recalling all of the facts or the most interesting facts. (Maybe you don't have to do that yet in WWE-2, I can't remember!). So for someone who maybe doesn't love history or catch on to history as well, adding on the additional skill of summarizing could be too much. For him, just having him talk about whatever he remembers without having to sift through it all to pick out what is the most important might be the key. Let him learn the summarizing skill in WWE.

 

What I used to do is have him tell me absolutely everything he could think of about the section and I would type out whatever he said. Afterwards we would go through it together and identify unnecessary sentences that could be deleted, switch around sentence order to make more sense, and so on. Then I would print it out for his notebook. (Except the year I tried to dictate it back to him, which I don't recommend!!)

[boscopup]

I never did more than an oral narration for SOTW. I also backed off on dictation around 2nd-3rd grade, but we still ended up able to write a narration in 4th grade, which was the goal.

 

If the writing is killing the love of history, take the writing out and do something different for writing time.

[Kathryn]

I agree with everyone else. History should be fun and enjoyable, not something to dread or feel one isn't good at--especially at that age. I wouldn't require any narration or dictation. Just conversation. Talk together about what he's learning. Save narration/dictation for it's own time if he's struggling with it. Don't let it kill his love of other subjects.

[kiwik]

Only last night I was considering buying the text rather than the level 2 workbook. I decided against it because I think it would lead to the same problem you are having.

[Laura Corin]

A bit of reading out loud, looking at some pictures, doing some craft, following some links, and a bit of chat is entirely appropriate at that age - I didn't do any history writing with my boys until they were older.

 

L

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Ditto to everyone else.  And I do think SOTW2 is much harder to narrate than SOTW1.  I do have my son tell back what he remembers, but I don't give much feedback on it, aside from maybe adding the one or two things I remember, so it's more like a discussion.  Instead, he narrates from fables, fairy tales, occasional science books, etc. 

[Amy M]

I feel confused. I never heard of all of this classical stuff until about 3 years ago, so I'm not sure I understand how to use narration, dictation, and copywork correctly. I am really trying to find a balance between doing too much or too little; between having rigor, yet instilling a love for learning; between teaching beginning writing yet not hurting little hands by writing too much. I had hoped that I was understanding TWTM in doing writing connected to history and reading. Maybe I'm too OCD "by the book" kinda person.

 

Now, if I separate the subjects, I feel like I'm back to the fog I was in a few months ago (at the beginning of our school year) regarding narration. How much? how often? How can I streamline subjects? I took copious notes on TWTM trying to figure it out, and it seemed like the expectations involved a lot of writing.

 

I talked about this here a couple of months ago: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/506044-how-much-narration-per-day-or-week/

 

I also brought it up here: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/502253-how-to-transition-to-wtm-reading-and-writing/

 

I thought that WWE's workbooks had been published to help people out, but that originally TWTM suggested doing narrations in reading, history, and science. That's what I was trying to do. But if I do that, I feel like I'm killing whatever love ds has in reading or history or science by connecting it to writing; and if I don't, then I feel like I'm adding extra unrelated subjects that make our day longer. I don't know--maybe I can't do this on my own.

 

Does anyone suggest simply dropping narrations (WTM style--working on summaries) until 4th or 5th grade? I've not seen this skill in other writing curricula for 2nd graders, but granted I haven't seen a ton of curricula. The writing philosophy of WWE/WWS makes a lot of sense to me, but maybe it's too hard developmentally for some kids. I'm not thinking of dropping copywork and dictation, but just the narration-with-prepared or unprepared-dictation part--maybe doing narration CM style. Is that what y'all suggest?

[Farrar]

Take this all with a grain of salt since I'm more of a believer in Brave Writer/CM style narration, but I think the narrations in SOTW and WWE are more the shining ideals than the practical realities for most kids.  And getting them closer to that ideal doesn't have to be tedious and strict - it can happen gradually and gently over the course of a full year.

 

I see it as being that kids do oral narrations until they're really, really ready to do them as written ones - maybe not until age 9 or 10 some kids, but others sooner.  And then you transition slowly.  For practicing the writing aspect, you begin with copywork and slowly move toward dictation.  It seems like you maybe pushed him to be doing written narrations and dictations when he should still be on oral narrations and copywork.

[rimk3]

If you want to still streamline subjects and not use the WWE workbook,  I would try to vary the subjects you pull copywork from each week/day.  Maybe one week the copywork comes from SOTW, then science, then literature read aloud, etc.  Also, I think it is fine to hold off on dictation and continue with copywork only.  As far as narrations go, I would try CM style narrations for a bit and see how that goes.  There is plenty of time to work on summarizing.  Also, an organic conversation where he tells you everything he remembers or his favorite part, etc is still composition.  He doesn't have to physically write to compose.  I sometimes help my 6 and 8 year olds to answer questions in complete sentences or use transitions words, but very gently.  

 

My 8 year old son is using English Lessons through Literature and this is what his writing looks like over the course of a week in all subjects.  Copywork from lit three times a week, oral narration of a fable with one sentence as copywork every other week.  Oral narration/conversation after history readings.  Sometimes I will scribe those, sometimes not.  Some Brave Writer free writes (sometimes weekly) or when he asks for them.  He also does some creative writing on his own.  I do own WWE teachers manual and reference it sometimes, but I don't use it as it written.  

[kiwik]

You are right. But if you have a kid who finds oral narrations difficult then you change to suit. It would be sad to ruin content subjects for him. Some kids lobe narrations - they can do it by the WTM book. And yes my thought was to streamline but honestly the WWE workbook it very quick and you can reorganise it so you only do it 3 days or something.

[Chris in VA]

I would not dictate a sentence to him, but ask him for his favorite part of the chapter of SOTW you read. Just an oral narration is enough.

If you want to do copywork with history, then take his favorite part (or whatever interesting part he might want to retell) and craft it for him into one sentence (like you are doing, sounds like) and then let him COPY it, not have it for dictation practice.

 

Vary your narrations--sometimes oral, sometimes copywork taken as above from a narration, sometimes just answering a few questions, sometimes acting out with a puppet or by playacting, sometimes just telling what he learned about soandso at the dinner table to whomever will listen (Dad, sibs, stuffie, etc.).

 

Make it fun!

[Coco_Clark]

We do oral at narrations, but pretty open ended, "tell me about Julius Caesar." If they have a hard time getting going I try to be more specific, "what did Julius Caesar want most?"

 

I write out narration for them. We do not do any writing in History yet because my DS6 HATES writing and my DS5 is still working on legibility/proper formation/ect. We do copywork later, on its own, when I can stand over DS5 and focus just on best hand, and DS6 can hate it for itself and not let it poison other subjects ;)

[reign]

For history and science I just have them tell me what they found most interesting. Hopefully they use a sentence. Then I write it down and they copy it onto a blank piece of paper and draw a picture. My kids love to draw though. I use WWE pretty much as directed.

[blondeviolin]

If you can, get the focus on writing lecture that SWB has on the main WTM site. I know you have the Complete Writer, but the lecture does make some of it come alive.

 

FWIW, I read the text, kids answer questions, and they tell me what they remember. I write it on a 3x5 and we glue that chapter's 3x5s on the back of their mapwork.

[Amy M]

If you want to still streamline subjects and not use the WWE workbook,  I would try to vary the subjects you pull copywork from each week/day.  Maybe one week the copywork comes from SOTW, then science, then literature read aloud, etc.  Also, I think it is fine to hold off on dictation and continue with copywork only.  As far as narrations go, I would try CM style narrations for a bit and see how that goes.  There is plenty of time to work on summarizing.  Also, an organic conversation where he tells you everything he remembers or his favorite part, etc is still composition.  He doesn't have to physically write to compose.  I sometimes help my 6 and 8 year olds to answer questions in complete sentences or use transitions words, but very gently.  

 

My 8 year old son is using English Lessons through Literature and this is what his writing looks like over the course of a week in all subjects.  Copywork from lit three times a week, oral narration of a fable with one sentence as copywork every other week.  Oral narration/conversation after history readings.  Sometimes I will scribe those, sometimes not.  Some Brave Writer free writes (sometimes weekly) or when he asks for them.  He also does some creative writing on his own.  I do own WWE teachers manual and reference it sometimes, but I don't use it as it written.  

 

This is very helpful, especially the examples of what you're doing, thank you. I think the main problem is the dictation-of-the-narration, not so much copywork or oral narrations, although those maybe don't fit the definition of "fun" either.

 

I forgot to mention--ds has been taking afternoons for the last two months to "write books." They aren't creative, but expository type books. He's been giving them away as gifts. (He wanted to sell them, but we kinda burst his bubble that there isn't really a market here in the villages of Africa for them. :laugh: Call it an economics lesson. ) Here are some titles: Why Do Fish Swim?, How Stupid the World Is, How Wise the World Is, 13 Things Girls Are Good and Bad for, 13 Things Boys Are Good and Bad for, etc. I had "Friday Freewrite" scheduled for once a week, but I never do it, because I figure he's done enough freewriting for the year, lol! So he amazes me with his writing like that. It's the dictations and the spelling that seems difficult for him, as well as figuring out the main points for the WWE summaries. He does handwriting pages/copywork fine, but he doesn't enjoy it.

 

He also gets dictations, but in easier form, in ABeka phonics, AAS, and occasionally FLL.

 

Does that alter anyone's advice on how to teach writing to this child (without overdoing the subjects in our day)? I don't feel that I got a good education in writing and want to do a good job with my kids. If that doesn't change anyone's thoughts on whether I should drop WTM writing altogether or try some other curriculum, I think I'll try the advice given above with Chris in VA's and farrar's advice. Thanks, all, for your thoughts on how to make my homeschool better.