5th grade ds doesn't get math AT ALL--Help?

[lots-o-rice]

Ok, I have just come to the end of the rope.  There is no more rope. :banghead:

 

My 5th grader just changed 1/5 to 1/10 in his fraction addition problem.  And could not understand why this is not right.  Also, he subtracted 135 from 200 and came up with 135, also could not understand why that was a problem.

He does fine on a test then forgets everything the next day.  

 

Nothing sticks.  

 

He is doing MUS epsilon and is on lesson 24, but can't understand equivalent fractions.  He just forgot everything.  He doesn't seem to be able to add on to previously learned material.  Maybe mastery isn't the way to go with him?

 

I just stopped all MUS completely, and now we are going through the Math Mammoth fraction book.  I think we will do summer school math and finish this Math Mammoth one, so he can complete the MUS lower series next year.  

 

As I dangle here on the end of my rope, does anyone have any suggestions for supplement for the poor guy?  Math games?  He obviously hates math, so I would hate to give him more boring math books to do at the same time.  Maybe a math puzzle book recommendation, or fun general math supplement book?  

 

Suggestions, sympathy, anything?

 

Thanks,

K

[Gil]

*Grr! I had type up a nice reply and then my computer ate it!*

 

You have my sympathies. Math struggles can be frustrating.

I don't know that going from one mastery-based curriculum, to another is the best idea. I personally love Math Mammoth, it works so well for the way that we do math in our home, the boys enjoy it and think that Maria Miller is the best thing since...since...wait, there were good things before Maria Miller? huh, imagine that!

Math Mammoth sells review books for grades 1-6, so it might be a good idea to look into some of those things rather just focus on one topic. I would probably work through the review materials for grades 2-5 and see which areas give him trouble and work exclusively on those number of topics every day for as long as it takes. Often, once kids can get out of the 'rut' they can continue on without a problem.

 

How is his understanding of place value? I find that tying place value and fractions together works nicely for kids who 'get' place value but not equivalent fractions.

Can he use money? I would switch focus to place value, and money--just do some refresher work on it and then start in on equivalent fractions using money as your avenue. There are many ways to show the same thing in money and at his age, money may seem a lot more tangible.

Next, do time. 30 minutes = 1/2 hour = 1800 seconds, that type of thing.

Slowly start blending in explicit fraction work again and see how it goes.

 

If he is still struggling, and even if he isn't then I find that at this stage, it can really help to make your own reference chart in words that you can understand.

This is to be our big, post MM math project: The boys are going to each make their own mathematics reference books.  I used to encourage my grade 5-7 students to do this. Its a bonus in homeschool because you can always use it as your own handy reference.

 

Now might be a great time for your son to do this. Its easy, just pick a couple of concepts a week and have your son 'teach them' to you or a sibling, have him go to the white board and work a examples of his own and make some annotated note pages on the concept. Let him use a pencil, pen and highlighter to make the pages on looseleaf notebook paper. It should touch on all the major concepts of elementary math (counting, place value, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, properties of real numbers, fractions, decimals, percents, geometry, applications of math in the real world, etc, etc, etc...)

 

Starting out, it will be easy, because the basics are usually very easy to explain, as he gets into the parts that he's struggling with he will slow down, wrestle with the material and as he goes about learning and teaching it will cement and this experience can really, really help and it makes a great project and its a craft thats not utterly useless after the glue dries (bonus!)

[lots-o-rice]

Oooh, I like the idea of the math reference book.  Written by him, so he can remind himself when he forgets.  I am on it.  Thanks for the suggestion.  I am thinking I will like the Math Mammoth stuff, as well.  

thanks,

K

[OneStepAtATime]

You might look at the "relaxed math" thread soror had running for additional sources for math review that might help with understanding and make math a little more fun, too.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/499692-looking-to-do-some-relaxed-math-here-want-to-share-ideas/

 

And the Key to....series of workbooks are really good for review.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Key-Fractions-Steven-Rassmussen/dp/1559531002

 

Have you had him do anything with Khan Academy?  Maybe seeing an explanation presented from an on-line source might help cement concepts, etc.

 

And I second the math reference book.  We are going to start one ourselves.

 

And big  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: .  BTDT.

[walkermamaof4]

Been there!!! This was my dd at right about the same time. We had used R&S, Math Mammoth, and BJU. I used MUS for another dd and this one for K. So, I was at my rope's end! I think that I switched to CLE at the recommendation of someone on this board. I had her take the placement tests and I think we dropped back a whole year. It has been absolutely perfect for us. Once we had to use Khan to cement something. But there is so much review over the course of the year that I've found everything gets cemented eventually. She is doing phenomenally with it. She still struggles with word problems and needs my input often with them, but can do all of the rote mathematics well now. I'd recommend you try it. 

[walkermamaof4]

BTW, Math Mammoth was far too quick paced and conceptual for my dd. My two boys thrive on it though. I don't think imo that it is for a struggling math student.

 

[EKS]

What does a math lesson look like with your son?  Do you present the material and discuss it with him before you set him loose on the worksheets?  Does he watch the DVD himself and then do the worksheets on his own?  Something in between?

 

 

[In2why]

My son is using MM and I agree that it moves to fast for a child struggling with concepts.  We got Key to Fractions and like it much better for fraction review.  I am now ordering Key to decimals and Key to Percentages since I firmly believe that tells 3 need to be taught together, and I love how the Key to series presents everything on the page.  

[Hunter]

Well, I know I'm still stuck in the 90s, but I think fractions are tough for 5th graders and wouldn't expect any mastery of the subject whatsoever unless the student is gifted in maths. I'd just be thankful the student is able to complete SOME basic fraction work without tears.

[Arcadia]

 

My 5th grader just changed 1/5 to 1/10 in his fraction addition problem.  And could not understand why this is not right.  Also, he subtracted 135 from 200 and came up with 135, also could not understand why that was a problem.

He does fine on a test then forgets everything the next day.  

 

Print him some fraction strips and let him use them to visualize that 1/5 is twice of 1/10.  Link is to fraction strips template.

http://lrt.ednet.ns.ca/PD/BLM/pdf_files/fraction_strips/fs_to_twelfths_labelled.pdf

If you have plenty of pennies at home, let him show you how he subtract 135 from 200.  Get to see how he think.

 

Some kids need to see and touch before the concepts sink in.

[Jess4879]

You have my sympathy, by the bucket loads!!  We have had similar struggles with my oldest.  She gets it the day of the lesson.  She may even get it the next day, but then it's gone.  Doing review wasn't enough for her.  We ended up switching to TT.  For her, it works.  She responds well to the visual lessons and likes feeling independant and the sprial was exactly what she needed.  We started her at grade level and she has done very well.  It has been a good confidence boost for her.  She used to melt down at MM word problems, and now she handles them without trouble. 

 

We also do Reflex Math, card games, etc. 

 

When a "big" concept is introduced (like long division or fractions) she sometimes needs to see it done a couple different ways.  For these times I pull samples from online, MM, etc to help her out.  It's a lonnngggg process.

[Mandylubug]

My 5th graders are struggling conceptually with fractions. We draw pictures, and cut up foods and paper. It is a slow and hard process for them. They literally are giving it their all to understand it. I can see them trying but it is just hard for them. We are using R&S and thank goodness it is slow and gentle because these boys are needing it! They can handle multiplication and long division without batting an eye but adding and subtracting fractions, changing improper fractions and simplifying fractions is just hard for them. I personally think it just needs time to sink in. Go slow and gentle. Work one on one with each problem if that is what it takes. Eventually, you will be able to step a way a bit more. We write down our steps on their boogie boards. You could do that on paper or white board as well. I am in the middle of this battle with you, though. I haven't successfully climbed this wall and made it to the other side yet. My advice may change next week :p

[MeAndTheBoys]

My 4th grader is like that.  I imagine we will have many more struggles in math.  He gets the concepts when we learn them, but forgets them quickly.

 

We have used CLE math all along--I really like it a lot.  It worked well with my DS1 who can do it independently, and it does work well with my DS2 even though he struggles--he HAS to face up to multiple concepts daily, and that keeps him on his toes.  I used to teach math, and had SO many 7th and 9th graders who had forgotten basics that I am neurotic about having things reviewed, so I'm a fan of spiral.  I know not everyone is---

 

He was working a year ahead last year, doing 4th grade math in 3rd grade--and we hit a wall.  I thought maybe CLE wouldn't work for him, so we dropped it, bought a bunch of Math Mammoth workbooks, and switched gears for a while.  He hated it.  I hated it.  It kept covering the same concept over and over and over again, then moved on to something else.  Mastery was not our "thing".  He begged to go back to CLE--so we did--we started Grade 4 again this year, and we only have a few more weeks--we've made it through!!

 

And here's what I have had to resign myself to in math:  Each day, he spends 30-45 minutes on his lesson.  I have to spend 10 minutes grading it--I make a paper listing the problems he needs to redo (short answer problems) and I make a paper where I have rewritten longer problems that he has to work out (things like 463x541)--  There is so much correcting to be done, it would just make it even harder if he had to erase it all.  BUT I do make him redo every problem that he has missed.  I help him remember the concepts he has forgotten.  I print out extra worksheets from the internet sometimes.

 

So--then he spends 15 minutes or so doing math corrections.

 

He has gotten much better--more often than he used to, he is CAREFUL when he is doing his lesson and doesn't make quite as many careless mistakes.  He's remembering some of the concepts that kept getting forgotten--maybe after 10 times of reviewing them with me.  They are finally clicking.

 

Anyway--I feel your frustration.  I live it every day :(    I'm wondering--how do you correct work with him?  Do you spend a lot of time correcting and reviewing and redoing?  As tedious as it is, I think it is helpful--  As much as I hate losing so much of my time on one subject with one child, it's a fact that the math is going to keep building, and if we dont' get this foundation, we will be in trouble--

 

The math reference guide--we have already realized that we HAVE to do this next year! in math and also in Language Arts/Grammar.  There are too many things that are tedious to look up again, and also I think the act of writing it down will help cement it in his brain.

 

Hope you find something that works for you--  hope it helps to know that you're NOT ALONE in the trenches!!!!

 

Betsy

[jennynd]

Have him draw it. Give him circles or stripes and has him draw the fraction when he make mistake

[Pen]

He does not get it?

 

Or he does get it and then forgets it?

 

You said both, and they may be very different issues.

[Guest]

My oldest son had the same problem with MUS. He would get it while watching the DVD then have no clue what to do once it was over or the next day. He is using CLE now and doing much better. 

[Mommaof5]

Have you tried Dreambox Learning? It is an online adaptive math program that my math-challenged daughter has had great success with. You can do a free trial through the website and homeschool buyers coop has discounts. It is great for developing mental math, place value understanding, number sense, and more. I would probably start him a grade or 2 behind because the computer automatically adjusts based on his responses. If he is struggling with something, it will adapt and present math concepts using virtual manipulatives until he can understand. If he responds quickly and correctly and demonstrated mastery, it will quickly move him forward. If he is moved forward, but then forgets, it will take him back to review and solidfy. Most of the time, the student is unaware when they are taken back to review a concept, so they don't feel bad or feel frustrated. Dreambox is very challenging for my daughter, and it takes her much longer to progress through it than my kids but she enjoys earning points, and feels great once she is able to master a concept. Plus, I see an actual difference in her ability to do paper & pen math in Math Mammoth.

[lots-o-rice]

Thanks for all the responses!  And sympathies!!!  I am so glad I am not the only one with a homeschooled student who is not acing the ACT at 5th grade.  

 

I will look into CLE for next year.  And I like the Dreambox program, that might be great for a summer thing.  I really think he does understand the concepts when he is taught them, but they just don't stick.  When he reviews, he acts like he has never seen it before.  I also think he has a hard time with the concrete-ness of math.  He just looks at a formula and thinks that will sink in.  It most certainly, for him, does not.  Drawing, and computer illustrations are going to be the way to go, I think

Thanks again for all the suggestions,

-K

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks for all the responses!  And sympathies!!!  I am so glad I am not the only one with a homeschooled student who is not acing the ACT at 5th grade.  

 

I will look into CLE for next year.  And I like the Dreambox program, that might be great for a summer thing.  I really think he does understand the concepts when he is taught them, but they just don't stick.  When he reviews, he acts like he has never seen it before.  I also think he has a hard time with the concrete-ness of math.  He just looks at a formula and thinks that will sink in.  It most certainly, for him, does not.  Drawing, and computer illustrations are going to be the way to go, I think

Thanks again for all the suggestions,

-K

:grouphug:   You are definitely not alone.  Best wishes.

[ktgrok]

Sounds like my son. Aced the test, promptly forgot it all. We switched to a program with daily review of old content. Teaching Textbooks first, then CLE. Both have worked well and required him to practice things daily for MONTHS so he wouldn't forget. 

[RootAnn]

Sometimes I'm glad there is no more rope or I'd be tempted to hang one of us (by our toes) by it.  :lol:

 

DD#2 hates math. She had a huge problem with adding/subtracting fractions with unlike denominators a few months ago.

 

I do recommend Key to Fractions for helping step through the idea really slowly & gently. They do fraction multiplication & division before addition/subtraction - just FYI.

 

We have to do spiral math here. It honestly takes my kids a long time to really understand math concepts. DD#2 doesn't want to know the 'why.' She will eventually "get it" - but she hates "discovery math" and she zones out with video instruction (Khan Academy, Alcumus, Maria Miller's YouTube, and even Education Unboxed videos!). The way she learns it best is by explaining it to a younger sibling - but she doesn't usually agree to do that. Did I mention she hates math?  :smash:

 

So, mostly  :grouphug:  from over here. I feel your pain!

[Berta]

Another CLE fan here! We started in 1st grade and at the start of this year (3rd) we switched to Teaching Textbooks. She hated it and begged to go back to CLE, so that is what we did.

 

[WishboneDawn]

Oooh, I like the idea of the math reference book. Written by him, so he can remind himself when he forgets. I am on it. Thanks for the suggestion. I am thinking I will like the Math Mammoth stuff, as well.

thanks,

K

Yup. One part of my son's binder is a glossary he builds. I like matey for him but at the beginning of every math session he does a few review questions from everything he struggled with in the past. I read through some Rod and Staff texts which gave me some structure for this as it's the only mastery math program I know of with constant review.

 

Also, pull out the manipulatives and model question after question with them, having him write them out as you go until he's doing it with ease then keep revisiting with a question or two a day. Don't make him do any conceptual leaps, lead him by the noise and let repetition teach him. Lastly, look for different explanatory videos, animations and such online to give him a different way to approach a problem or even just let him hear the explanation in a voice besides yours.