Can IEW redeem itself after Classical Conversations?

[dauphin]

:)

 

I heard time and time (and time!) again about how fabulous IEW was (with its one weakness being that writers end up a little, ?formulaic? but even that reportedly could be overcome without much difficulty). Using it with the Essentials program in CC was incredibly frustrating. They cover the units out of order from the book (and not all of them). I'm still not clear on why that is - I've heard it's so that the stories are covered in chronological order, and I've also heard that it's so that it aligns with the order of presentation of lessons in TWSS?!?! Okay, maybe I should have found a way to borrow the DVD guide from another campus, but the tutor and the only other parent in the class (who was the F/E director) had both already seen it so there wasn't the incentive to "watch and discuss it together." Anyway, you can't use the "checklists" for each assignment because they're being held accountable for skills that haven't been taught yet (or won't be!). And it seems like some of the lessons assumed skills (e.g., basic lit analysis terms?) that hadn't been covered.

 

Well, for that and other reasons, we are leaving CC (well, the rigid birthdate cutoff for Challenge was a big sticking point!). So I'm on my own and recently finished TWTM (and cannot tell you how much I loved it, and these forums. I need a bumper sticker:L "I'd rather be reading TWTM forums.") and would like to revisit writing curricula. I do not consider writing to be a strong suit at all (except for technical writing!) since I'm a STEM person. DD11 is too, so I don't think we'll ever turn her into a flowery author. And that also probably makes writing instruction a little more painful for both of us to begin with :) :) :) 

 

So I have my own copy of TWSS and the DVD now, and I could push through and try to do it "right" next year.

 

Or, I could use the curriculum that was scheduled for next year for Challenge (until that option was removed), Lost Tools of Writing. Which I also own. Yes, I have curriculum issues. Cut me some slack - I'm still in the 1st-year-newbie phase - I only started homeschooling last November, and completely unexpectedly to boot!

 

After reading TWTM, I was kind of hung-ho for Writing Strands. Hey, it's what's recommended, AND a local HS mom whose opinion I respect (and who is available sometimes for advice to us newbies) uses it! :) :) :) I have a copy of one level (3) and it looked intriguing, if you use it and love it, please tell me why! 

 

Now, I also see people post about WWE/WWS. I assume that's what SWB et al., would recommend now if they updated TWTM? If you'd recommend that over Writing Strands, why? (And now that I think about it, I don't think I see posts about Writing Strands much?)

 

I'll also say that I have had some exposure to CM ideology in my circle of HS'ing friends and I'm trying to ford my way through her writings. I hear over and over again how reading good lit/living books just results in good writing. I can buy into that to a certain extent, but my issue with that has always been - but how do you teach the different KINDS of writing? Narration helps you with summarizing/outlining and even literary analysis to an extent. But what about other kinds of analysis, 5-paragraph essay, persuasive writing, technical writing, creative, explanatory, research reports, etc.?

 

 

 

 

[dauphin]

:) 71 views and no comments

 

"False advertising" in the title?

 

Too much in the first post?

 

Wrong subforum?

[Dolphin]

I think it is the right forum. If you look at a lot of posts there are way more views than replies. People tend to reply if they know about the subject. You could change the title to "Help me pick my writing curriculum for next year."

[HS Mom in NC]

There are people who think IEW is a bad method for teaching writing.  Or to rephrase, they think IEW teaches bad writing.  I'm one of those people.  For example, many of us think even the best  5 parapgraph essay is an example of bad writing.  Others are more neutral on the topic.  Some think it's very good.   This debate upsets a lot of people here who use IEW.  That's why so many are likely to avoid the topic. 

There are lots of hybrid CM and TWTM homeschoolers here.  I'm one of them. When it comes to read alouds, lots of us agree that excellent read alouds by the best of the best, daily,  for years and years is a solid foundation for excellent writing, but most agree some amount of structured teaching in writing is necessary in the older years.  Many of us separate academic writing from other forms of writing.  WWS by Bauer does a good job of covering lots of different kinds of academic writing,  but we warned, many kids who love creative writing don't enjoy it because it's VERY specific types of academic writing done one step at a time. I'm of the opinion every kid needs to know how to do each of those kinds of academic writing, but not always the amount of it in WWS.

 

There is debate as to whether or not all children need creative writing, or if only children who love creative writing should do it and even then, some don't think it should necessarily be taugh in a specific way.   I don't think any child should be required to do creative writing.  No one needs it in adult life.  I do have a kid that loves it and is great at it, so I encouraged her to continue, but I would never make it mandatory and while I provided feedback when asked, I didn't do any formal instruction on how.

[sassenach]

I don't really feel like IEW builds on itself, so out of order doesn't bug me.  It's more like a bunch of parts that can be assembled into different shapes.  So, if you didn't like it in CC, chances are you're still not going to like it.  I think you should go with what you're excited to teach, and that sounds like Writing Strands.

[Tardis Girl]

Well I don't know if this will help, but maybe people will post so they can disagree with me! :P  

 

I am not a fan of Writing Strands. To be fair, we didn't end up really using it because I found it just boring, tedious, uninspiring. But that's me. I really didn't give it a fair shot; obviously there are others (like your friend!) who love it, and that is great!

 

I think IEW is great at some things, but I don't think it's "it" for everything and everyone. I first used it when my older ones (coming from a strong CM upbringing) were heading into 8th grade. They did SWI-C as a 2 week intensive followed by the year-long schedule for SICC-C (the continuation course; maybe the acronym has changed?). Both of these are based on DVD instruction with Andrew Pudewa and that was a major appeal -- my kids really *liked* him.  They followed that up with The Elegant Essay, I think, during 9th grade. I planned to use a few other IEW things but didn't find they met the need we had.

 

Now I will say that I thought, "Oh, the SWI and SICC was so great for those two kids, I'll start younger with my next set of kids." Started using SWI-A this year and...ya, not the same. They still like Andrew, but it's just not the right time, not a good match, IDK. (I see I need to update my sig because I still have it listed there.) I think I'm better off sticking with focusing on narrating (oral - written) the CM way like I did with the older ones. I do have some IEW history (which I think is what CC uses, right?), and I do plan to incorporate those in with our history studies instead of doing all that SWI-A DVD course. We'll see how that goes. 

 

Gotta run, but maybe that will somehow help  -- kind of had more to say, but maybe I can post a bit more later. Good luck! 

[coffeegal]

There is no perfect system for teaching writing. There are many good systems, but no perfect curricula that will produce the perfect writer. My suggestion is to watch the TWSS, since you have it. Then listen to SWB's lectures on writing. Then determine your writing goals for the year. If you're dealing with a middle school student, you can concentrate on creating 3-5 paragraph logical reports through outlining and writing from the outline.

 

My vague outline for teaching writing is as follows:

 

1. Focus on teaching outlining skills

 

2. Teach writing from the outline. First 1 paragraph, then 3-5 paragraphs. Simple report style writing.

 

2. Teach introductions and conclusions

 

3. Teach thesis statements

 

4. Teach various ways to structure the paper for persuasive, technical, 5-paragraph, creative, etc.

 

Once children are adept at outlining and writing from the outline, it's easy to teach different methods of structuring the outline for various purposes. You can take your time and look through the different curricula and see if something clicks. My recommendation, though, is to concentrate on learning how to teach writing first, then worry about finding a curriculum for your homeschool. :001_smile:

[Jamee]

We started IEW with the history theme book and it was not easy going for the group of first timers.  I had previously had my older son do the SWIB and that went very well--it was helpful having someone other than mom telling him those things. :glare:   I had a discussion with a new CC tutor at the beginning of the year who was doing the Medieval book for the first time and had questions since my group was now doing All Things Fun and Fascinating.  I warned her that starting with that book was going to be VERY difficult, especially since she had all new IEW people and rather young writers at that.  We are currently finishing up AFF and have to say it's gone really well.  Looking back, we moms realize starting with the theme book was not the right decision for our group of writers and should have gone this route all along.  Since you already have the materials, I'd give it another go.  I've noticed too that the revisions that IEW has done, include the units now being in order.  Good luck.  I've been very happy with the program and it's definitely been good for my boys.

[...................]

I don't think a ton of people here are using. IEW right now. It seemed like It was the. Big. Thing. Up to about 2 years ago. I've heard a lot less on the internet and IRL about it the past two years. It probably reached its market saturation and leveled off, so that discussion diminished for a while.

 

IEW is very formulaic. Whether it'll work depends on your dc and you. But I will say that from experience, if I as the mom have dread and loathing or if my kids do, it's very hard to make something work. Better to put it In the closet and try something else this year.

[8filltheheart]

I am another who does not like IEW's approach to writing unless you are talking young kids that are learning very basic note gathering and basic paragraph construction. Beyond that, it is very formulaic and not sophisticated writing.

 

As far as suggestions for you, you need to provide more specifics. It is sort of like asking what should you use math next yr. Well, what level has been mastered? What strengths? Weaknesses? Has paragraph writing been mastered? Multiple paragraph reports? Any essay writing?

[Hunter]

I've used some formulaic programs in the past but not IEW. Having read, "Write Like Hemingway" just before I learned about it turned me off. It contradicted the "don't use adverbs" advice that I had adopted.

 

I'm in the very early stages of trying out "Writing Strands" alongside Hake Grammar.

 

I just don't have much worth contributing.

[Mrs Twain]

IEW is excellent for teaching style elements. Yes, it can sound formulaic when students are first learning and applying the various elements. I alternate IEW lessons with another writing program in which I don't require a checklist. This allows the child to write on non--IEW weeks without the formulaic issue, and yet I see my kids naturally applying the IEW concepts they have learned.

 

I think you would enjoy IEW more if you watched the TWSS and understood the point and method of the program. Also, the SWI and SICC DVD courses have worked much better for us than an IEW theme course, primarily because Mr. Pudewa is humorous and entertaining.

 

If you don't want to go the IEW route, I would still encourage you to look at combining two programs, especially since no one particular writing program seems to be the "one to use."

 

ETA:

I think you need to address both structure and style. There is a post above which outlined steps for teaching structure, but one must also address style issues either separately or along with teaching structure.

[dauphin]

I think it is the right forum. If you look at a lot of posts there are way more views than replies. People tend to reply if they know about the subject. You could change the title to "Help me pick my writing curriculum for next year."

 

Thanks. I was sitting there waiting for DD to finish practice and had way too much opportunity to keep refreshing looking for responses! I will probably do as you suggested!

 

There are people who think IEW is a bad method for teaching writing.  Or to rephrase, they think IEW teaches bad writing.  I'm one of those people.  For example, many of us think even the best  5 parapgraph essay is an example of bad writing.  Others are more neutral on the topic.  Some think it's very good.   This debate upsets a lot of people here who use IEW.  That's why so many are likely to avoid the topic. 

 

 

Eek. I didn't know that. Well, now I do.

 

I don't really feel like IEW builds on itself, so out of order doesn't bug me.  It's more like a bunch of parts that can be assembled into different shapes.  So, if you didn't like it in CC, chances are you're still not going to like it.  I think you should go with what you're excited to teach, and that sounds like Writing Strands.

 

Well, going out of order, at least in the History-based books that they use in CC Essentials, meant that the checklist at the end of the unit wasn't appropriate - so every.single.time, we had to pull out the (downloaded from CC Connected, NOT an official document) list of what topics/dressups we had already covered, and make our own "checklist" (which usually didn't happen in a thorough fashion because it was so aggravating). 

 

Well I don't know if this will help, but maybe people will post so they can disagree with me! :p

 

I am not a fan of Writing Strands. To be fair, we didn't end up really using it because I found it just boring, tedious, uninspiring. But that's me. I really didn't give it a fair shot; obviously there are others (like your friend!) who love it, and that is great!

 

 

 

Ok you have to say if you're a literary person or a STEM person, then. Your CM background argues in one direction, but your Username argues in the other. :)

[Carol in Cal.]

I liked Writing Strands, but we homeschooled before WWS and WWE were available, and so I tend to stay out of convos like this because I'm not sure whether my expertise is relevant without having looked at those two resources.  However, I did use both Writing Strands and IEW, so I'll comment on those.

 

One of the things I liked about Writing Strands is that it can be taught at many grade levels.  So, for example, you can start Writing Strands 3 in any of grades 3-6 and it will be helpful--and it doesn't have a big fat 'GRADE 4' label on it.  That means that, as with IEW, you can implement it exactly when it will be most helpful to your child, and you can grade them at their own grade level depending on what their specific capabilities are.  Grading is supposed to be done based purely on whether or not your child did exactly what the assignment says.  I used that guide, but also expected the use of advanced vocabulary and engaging topics that were at DD's level.  WS specifically discourages simplistic 'Dr. Suess-ish' writing from its earliest levels, so it is helpful in encouraging writing at the child's actual level instead of simple writing just to get the assignment finished.

 

Another great feature of WS is that it is purely a composition program.  It doesn't combine composition, grammar, editing, spelling, copywork, dictation, etc.  It is only about composition.  In our family, DD's composition skills were far more advanced than her other writing skills for quite a few years.  This was nervewracking, but we worked on all of the skills separately, and by 7th grade or so they all converged beautifully.  If we had kept her composition instruction at the level of her other writing skills, she would have been bored to tears, would have hated writing, and would have missed out on the opportunity to become the excellent composer that she is. 

 

Lastly, I appreciate the fact that WS includes imaginative, creative writing as well as non-fiction analytical writing.  It is almost unique in that regard--there are other, fairly brief creative writing programs, but I don't know of any other writing curriculum that combines/integrates lessons in creative writing and in nonfiction writing, except Writers' Jungle, which, though superb at teaching the teaching of writing, is not something that you can just pick up and start using the next day.

 

I was exposed to IEW pretty early, and felt that for a child who tends to only write short, boring pieces it would be very helpful in amplifying their style, but that it is too formulaic to be used in the early stages of teaching composition.  Once DD had thoroughly developed her writing voice, I was very glad to use IEW to give her some more tools in her toolbox, but we also used a couple of Bravewriter classes, and some Junior Great Books writing, and some Rod and Staff writing from time to time as well.  I would hate to have IEW taught too early and impose that specific style on someone's writing ad infinitum, but as one set of tools in a good writer's toolbox, it was fine.  DD took an IEW class in 7th grade, and that was good timing for her to do so.  She could have done it in 6th--earlier than that, I think it would have imposed a style that would have stunted her writing development, perhaps permanently.

[Tardis Girl]

I am really enjoying this thread and hearing the different opinions. :)  I thought this was interesting: 

 

 

I am another who does not like IEW's approach to writing unless you are talking young kids that are learning very basic note gathering and basic paragraph construction. Beyond that, it is very formulaic and not sophisticated writing.

 

...because for us it was just the opposite. I think it worked better (in terms of its overall effect) with my middle schoolers because they already could write multi paragraph narrations, had an established voice and a wide vocabulary. For them, some of the IEW helped their writing be more purposeful. That doesn't necessarily seem to be how many people use it, or the benefit they get from it. Now when I tried using it with a younger set, thinking it would have some of the benefits 8FillTheHeart mentioned, it has been tedious and frustrating. And we stopped using it. lol  

 

And on a tangent, 8FillTheHeart has some wonderful posts about writing across the subjects without a formal curriculum. Not sure if that would help you or how you would search for her old posts, but just another option for you. 

[mom31257]

I have a math degree, and IEW is exactly what I needed to feel I could actually teach writing. I went through TWSS in 2 weeks during the summer a few years ago. I've taught an IEW co-op class for the last 2.5 years. I never, ever dreamed I could even come close to teaching a writing class, much less enjoy it.

IEW took my son from crying about having to write anything to being able to write a biography report on Robert E. Lee, write a story about a family heading to Oregon in a covered wagon, and write his opinion on something he has read. He can sit down and write a paragraph, then use the checklist to revise simple sentences into much more interesting and complex ideas.

As my son masters the checklist, I plan to move away from it and only refer back to it if his writing falls into a rut or lacks variety. The ability to write well is not a skill which can be rushed. I should be giving him help continually to help him see weak areas and improve. I feel that after middle school, I'll be willing to venture into other writing programs for high school. I use CLE LA and does a few of those writing assignments, so he's getting a bit of other kinds of writing.

[Lara in Colo]

I like Michael Clay Thompson  -- it is expensive and teacher intensive but it does a good job teaching writing, grammar and vocabulary. 

[matrips]

We use IEW, but not through CC. We love it here. I used SWI-a with my third graders this year. I can't believe how easily they can whip out key word outlines and paragraphs (good ones) and engaging titles. They can do non fiction, or narrations, or creative and it doesn't phase them. A huge change from before when my boys could stare at a blank page all day and not even know how to start or come up with ideas (and we had tried several other programs). The quality of their writing is vastly improved. Will IEW always be the right choice? I don't know, but we are sticking with it for now and moving to SICC A for fourth grade. They enjoy watching the videos and I enjoy watching it with them. Nice to have someone else do the teaching and giving the assignments for a change.

 

I also own and have watched the TWSS ahead of the SWI.

[dauphin]

 People tend to reply if they know about the subject. You could change the title to "Help me pick my writing curriculum for next year."

 

I think I'll start a new one.

 

Here's the link!

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/513001-help-me-pick-my-writing-curriculum-for-next-year/

[mrs.m]

:)

 

I heard time and time (and time!) again about how fabulous IEW was (with its one weakness being that writers end up a little, ?formulaic? but even that reportedly could be overcome without much difficulty). Using it with the Essentials program in CC was incredibly frustrating. They cover the units out of order from the book (and not all of them). I'm still not clear on why that is - I've heard it's so that the stories are covered in chronological order, and I've also heard that it's so that it aligns with the order of presentation of lessons in TWSS?!?! Okay, maybe I should have found a way to borrow the DVD guide from another campus, but the tutor and the only other parent in the class (who was the F/E director) had both already seen it so there wasn't the incentive to "watch and discuss it together." Anyway, you can't use the "checklists" for each assignment because they're being held accountable for skills that haven't been taught yet (or won't be!). And it seems like some of the lessons assumed skills (e.g., basic lit analysis terms?) that hadn't been covered.

 

Well, for that and other reasons, we are leaving CC (well, the rigid birthdate cutoff for Challenge was a big sticking point!). So I'm on my own and recently finished TWTM (and cannot tell you how much I loved it, and these forums. I need a bumper sticker:L "I'd rather be reading TWTM forums.") and would like to revisit writing curricula. I do not consider writing to be a strong suit at all (except for technical writing!) since I'm a STEM person. DD11 is too, so I don't think we'll ever turn her into a flowery author. And that also probably makes writing instruction a little more painful for both of us to begin with :) :) :)

 

 

 

CC was intending to use the HBWL as a source book to work with TWSS.  If your tutor didn't clearly understand or explain this, then I can see why you would be confused.

 

Did your tutor not give you updated checklists based on what was being taught through TWSS? Did you watch the TWSS videos as a group? I really think this was an issue with the tutor because the CC tutor portal had a syllabus and updated checklists to use based on the skills taught in class. I emailed already created checklists to my parents for each paper. Parents would alter them based on their student's level or skills. 

 

Honestly, I don't understand why CC didn't just find some writings to use for each unit to cause a lot less confusion for the tutors and parents. If IEW is taught correctly, a child should be able to use ANY short source for their writing. Timeline cards, Aesop's Fables, etc. could have been used instead of making parents skip around in that book. And it would have saved a few bucks too. But I heard that they are reworking HBWL to work with the IEW units so there will no longer be skipping around. It is my understanding that HBWL is really meant to be used after a student has gone through all the TWSS units.

 

And it sounds like they really need to fix their tutor training. We had the same issue last year. I tutored this year and I'm sure I did a lot incorrectly because I didn't get enough guidance to muddle my way through a very confusing system.

 

I know IEW is a great curriculum. If you haven't watched TWSS, then try to borrow it and watch it this summer. The Student Writing Intensives with their corresponding workbooks are good too. You probably won't need the first one since you have some experience with IEW.

[dauphin]

CC was intending to use the HBWL as a source book to work with TWSS.  If your tutor didn't clearly understand or explain this, then I can see why you would be confused.

 

Did your tutor not give you updated checklists based on what was being taught through TWSS? Did you watch the TWSS videos as a group? I really think this was an issue with the tutor because the CC tutor portal had a syllabus and updated checklists to use based on the skills taught in class. I emailed already created checklists to my parents for each paper. Parents would alter them based on their student's level or skills. 

 

And it sounds like they really need to fix their tutor training. We had the same issue last year. I tutored this year and I'm sure I did a lot incorrectly because I didn't get enough guidance to muddle my way through a very confusing system.

 

 

Our campus had no emphasis on teaching the parents through TWSS, and TBH that's not at all emphasized in the CC materials. You only HAVE to buy The EEL guide, the appropriate HBWL guide and student book, and you are encouraged to buy OMT. That's what I recall at least. Informally, during an open house/info meeting, I heard that "the parents can get together outside of CC and watch the TWSS videos together." Well, the only other parents in our class were the Essentials tutor and the F/E director, both of whom had already watched it at some point during their training. AND we never had our own copy at the campus (we were ALL brand new this year - director and tutors). We got what I assume is the updated syllabus (with correct order of chapter/skill) but never got updated end-of-unit checklists. She must not have known about them, because she certainly didn't use anything like that with her own kids. We suspect some weaknesses in both tutor training and follow-through by superiors....

 

I'm just no longer sure that I want to invest further time/resources about IEW. This really doesn't sound like a good/effective system (the way CC handles it, that is). I also feel like DD quickly picked up a number of the skills, so IDK, I kind of feel like it'd be going backwards/more in-depth coverage of the same content already covered?

[jetzmama]

FWIW, many of the Classical Conversations practicums choose a writing camp for 9+.  The curriculum used at these camps is IEW's Student Writing Intensive.  This may be a way to get a 3 day 'trial' of the program without having to commit to a full year.  If you want to try this, the events tab will lead you to 3 day practicums.  This will give you a time/place option.  Once you find a practicum, the camps offered will be listed at the bottom of the page.

 

I will say that I tutored a group of middle school kids with a wide range of writing abilities.  After one semester of careful instruction and diligent work with IEW's Bible Based Writing Lessons, they were all writing well for their age. Fast forward a year filled with literary analysis papers and study of short story elements and there is no hint of formula writing in any of their work.  IEW did lay a good foundation for structure and style (just as they say).  The structure has remained, but the kids have really grown into their own styles.  That said, I have found IEW with younger kids to be laborious and stiff (but about to dump WS right now, too).

[nwmama]

I love a lot of things about CC but I have no plans to do Essentials because of IEW. I hate the writing that I see come out of IEW, even though it is technically correct it has no life to it and can be so dry that it's painful. I much prefer WWE/WWS, though I haven't finished them my mom has used them with my cousins and I've seen the results. They are still correct but they are also interesting. I do have the complaint that WWE/WWS are not quite as creative as I would like so I'm trying Bravewriter to supplement the creativity. 

 

Thankfully, so far, the CC group we left in WA was not as stringent as some other groups and I have hopes that our new group in KY will be even more laid back. To be honest, if there were another classical group option in my area I'd jump on it but for now, I have to put up with the things that drive me nuts because I like my kids learning in classical group setting.