I had never really considered the time spent on math until just a few days ago.... I guess we just are accustomed to doing things the way we do them, so I really appreciate the responses here; it's given me a new factor to consider in the overall high school / math plan here. And @Chrysalis -- I can definitely relate to your reply on this! That is my kids.

When I hear about other's talking about kids spending an hour (or HOURS) on math regularly, or wanting to do more, etc., I realize how different that is from my own. IDK if AOPS can really even be done if your student is only going to spend maybe 30-45 minutes a day on math. I'm thinking you won't get very far in the AOPS sequence if you do that -- any thoughts on that? Or for that matter, can one successfully complete a math sequence (meaning through some Trig or Pre-Calc) with other programs on that kind of time? Let's assume they are starting Algebra 1 in 8th or 9th grade. I know that clocking sheer minutes isn't going to get the job done -- after all, a student who spends an hour daily on math but a good chunk of that time is spent trying to avoid the work or daydreaming isn't necessarily getting any more done than a student who spends 30 minutes of focused attention on the subject. But what do you think? I'm starting to feel like AOPS won't be sustainable here based on time alone -- and forcing a student who doesn't love it to spend so much more time on math daily would seems likely to cultivate negativity toward the subject.

Do you think it would be of value for a student interested in cosci who has completed a more traditional (non-AOPS) math series to come back to AOPS counting & prob and/or number theory after some other maths?

:lol: :lol: I cannot even imagine my kids spending that long on math. EVER! :lol: :lol: But seriously, that's really cool -- I love it!!

That's interesting how you describe Jacob's, because I feel like AOPS has elements of that and she doesn't seem to mind that. Hmm.... It was "Beginning Algebra" for Lial's that she used -- would that be the introductory algebra book you used? I do not mind sitting with her while she does math, being available to explain as needed. At least at this point in our relationship, that has actually made math more tolerable for her (having me sitting nearby) and been a relative positive - and until that changes, I'm ok with putting in the time in that way. I don't honestly see myself watching a video every day on my own and then relaying that info to her at a later time. But if I feel comfortable with the material and have access to the book, maybe that's less of a need? So does anyone know how Jacob's and Foerster's compare in the actual teaching / explaining of new material in a lesson? And are review problems built in pretty equally? I don't think of AOPS as specifically having review, although certainly concepts build on previous concepts, so there's that. Would AOPS users agree? This AOPS pre-algebra has been my only exposure.

- 7th grade - AOPS pre-algebra - 30 minutes / day - tolerates it...there have been a few tears, but I chalk that up to the hormones looking back to some of older kids now graduated: - 11th grade - Chalkdust pre-calc - hour+ a day - tolerated it (barely) - 11th + 12th grade - MUS algebra 2 + pre-calc - maybe 30-40 minutes/day - tolerated it (after being unhappier with a more traditional textbook)

In rethinking some higher-level math curriculum choices, it occurs to me that expectations for time spent on math may vary widely between (and even within) families. I'd love to get a snapshot of other families -- what's it like for your kids? - age/grade of student - math program (AOPS algebra, TT geometry, Thinkwell calculus, etc) - time spent daily on math - attitude about math (loves it, tolerates it, cries his way through it, etc) ETA: Thank you to all who respond! I probably won't comment so that a quick flow of responses can be retained, but I appreciate all comments and it is always interesting to hear how things work for others. Thank you! :)

You ladies are so great! I can't tell you how much it helps just to get me thinking and feel a little less stuck. :) @Monica -- I do feel comfortable enough to answer stuff on the fly at this point...at least through Algebra 2, I would think, maybe beyond. Are there decent samples anywhere of Foerster's? I think I am leaning that way now... although I wouldn't mind seeing Jacob's as well. I saw a sample at Rainbow Resource for Foerster, but it was really just the table of contents and only one page of the actual text. On a side note, I'm thinking through how much time one spends on math. My daughter has basically spent 30 minutes a day on AOPS Pre-Algebra. Maybe I should start another topic for this, because I'm wondering if that's just too little? But I really can't see pushing math time beyond, say, 45 minutes a day. Even that seems too much -- I'd rather she stay focused for a shorter time than get more distracted with the longer time.

Thank you all so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences! This has been such a weight on me. I wrote a lengthy reply and it all was deleted because apparently I was logged out by the system. :( Trying again.... Monica -- you ask some good questions. Can I ask why you recommend specifically staying with AOPS if her attitude on math has not changed? Just to clarify, her previous math consisted of these: - Math Mammoth for elementary (written to the student so she worked pretty independently and I would check over her work; if there was ever a struggle to understand something, I would directly explain it and guide her to figure it out...although I don't specifically remember ever doing that with her) - Life of Fred elementary and intermediate for fun alongside MM, then to LOF decimals/percents, and a brief stint with LOF Pre-Algebra 0 (Physics) - AOPS Pre-Algebra this past year, although she still has a decent chunk left of the book I talked with my daughter more after thinking through some of Monica's questions. Here's what I came away with: - she says she's never really liked math much - she liked Life of Fred most of all, pretty much because the story component made it interesting, at least for the elementary / intermediate series. But she found LOF Pre-Algebra Physics more frustrating, which she thinks may be attributed to being introduced to both new physics and math concepts simultaneously. She did not finish that book, nor did she continue with the LOF series. - I had forgotten, but apparently after LOF, I had her try some of the very beginning of Lial's Algebra (because I had a copy around and wanted to see how she would handle the style, knowing that the very beginning was something she could handle in terms of content). She remembers that she did not like all the straight computation. - This unexpected info on Lial's has me rethinking everything. Perhaps that is not fair to introduce this variable into the equation at this point (ha! math humor!) since it was such brief exposure, but if she didn't like all the straight computation, what does that mean for the possibility of Lial's / Jacob's / Foerster?? - her thoughts on AOPS: it was ok, she just doesn't really care for math she says - I will just say too that she does have a good mind for math -- even when she was younger I saw evidence of that as just something innate. She solves problems and finds answers in ways that I would not expect... and once in a while I even have a hard time understanding it when she explains it, but it works. But she also is easily distracted, avoids work, etc. Just not a highly-motivated person or someone who acts on her own initiative even when she has talents in certain areas. I'll be honest, and it's painful to say this, but one of my concerns with AOPS is that it is very time consuming. Maybe it's my perception, but it feels like the approach of this series of book will necessitate her spending more time on math to cover the same main subjects (Alg 1, Alg 2, etc) OR she will just not get through as much math if she sticks with AOPS. It has always been my intention that all of my kids get through Pre-Calc by the time... but is that just silly? maybe I shouldn't get hung up on that? I want to ask more questions of you lovely ladies, but don't even know what to ask. Please continue to share your thoughts if you are so inclined. Thank you so much!

I hate to even post but I've read so many math posts on here and am still feeling frustrated and confused. I just want to stick to a math plan for upper level maths...is that too much to ask?? lol I want to challenge her without her just "tolerating" math. I'm sure many people feel that way! My 13yo finished the better part of AOPS Pre-Algebra (first time with AOPS)...it's an interesting approach and she has done better with it than I thought, often coming up with creative approaches to solving problems that I don't expect. But she is not a big fan of this approach and tolerates math as a necessary requirement -- I think she would love to switch to something a little more direct. ;) I have been looking (and looking!) at where to go from here, not just for Algebra but in the bigger scheme of a few years: specifically, Jacob's (Dr Cal?), Foerster's (MWB?), and Lial's, and also at Chakerian for geometry. I'm thinking it would be best to stick with one tract where possible, but are there benefits to switching between courses? For example: Jacob's Elementary Algebra Chakerian Geometry Foerster's Algebra 2 I don't want to revisit math every year, lol. I regret not having a good, consistent program with my older kids and am committed to staying more aware and involved with the younger ones' math progression, as well as being more available for discussion and explanation as needed. She will watch a video if needed, but I think would prefer to not have that be an integral part, rather preferring to rely on the explanation in the text and discussing it with me. At least that's how it went with AOPS. (I think she probably doesn't want to spend the time on math videos which can get rather long at times.) - Are any of these better suited to minimal video usage? - I absolutely want a good answer key and preferably written out explanations of answers, because even though I *could* just work stuff out on my own to check it for her, I need whatever time-saving tools there are. I know that AOPS is quite different in approach, but do you think she'd be fine moving forward with Algebra 1, despite not completing the AOPS Pre-Algebra? My head is swimming from all the old posts I've read. Is there anywhere where there is a simple list of pros/cons or a flowchart or something guiding the decision process?? Kidding...kind of. I'd love to find that if it exists. Many thanks for any guidance!

Great feedback, and appreciated the other question about using it as a supplement with an older child as well. Based on what everyone is saying, I'm going to go ahead and order 3A and 3B for now and see how it goes. You guys are great!

I haven't commented before, but I was reading all the comments earlier today. I am so sorry to hear that it ended this way. I am not a big fan of the CC model although I have friends who love it and totally respect that. But obviously, from a business/professional standpoint (and CC is most definitely a business), this is just so sad to hear. I would definitely let the regional director know about this final interaction -- and in fact, I would even go higher than that and explain how you were treated to someone "higher up" if you don't get a decent response (and you want to spend the time). I doubt they'd give you your money back; that's not the point. That's just wrong. Totally unprofessional. Or, take a long deep breath, slowly exhale, and let all your frustrations just melt away. And don't look back. Good luck with your new co-op and here's to a WONDERFUL year!! :grouphug:

Thank you both; that is very reassuring! (And I can see that I really need to update my signature as it is quite out of date, but yes, most of that 4th graders math has been Math Mammoth and she has also done into the LOF Intermediate books. @Chrysalis Academy -- are you planning to have your dd stick with that MM/BA combo through MM6 and BA5 if those get done in time? Does she do all the MM pages/problems, or do you just assign her select ones? (Now I just to figure out what to do with my 11yo approaching pre-algebra...not sure if I want to put all our eggs into the LOF basket, but not thrilled with anything else I've seen for her either. I guess that's another thread, but if anyone wants to comment, I wouldn't mind! haha)

I had my 9yom 4th grade daughter take the online placement test for BA 4A and realized that while she can do the computations, she doesn't do them the BA way. So she solves 27x6 by just multiplying as is, not (20+7)x6 and then distributing/adding. And even the 199x80 problem she multiplied out rather than doing it as 200x80 and subtracting out the extra 80. The examples continue -- for the perimeter of a odd shape she just added every side instead of seeing how it could be a full rectangle, etc. She's been asking to try BA, but I'm thinking maybe we need to start back earlier. Thoughts from experienced BA users? She knows long division, etc., but obviously there's more to BA than computations. Thanks!

OK, gotcha. This makes sense, and again, thank you all for so many examples and specifics. That's kind of along the lines of what I've done from time to time for just small section, but I've not really approached the entire curriculum or level from that perspective and was feeling a bit overwhelmed at the prospect. @farrar -- I'm also a bit concerned about what you mentioned, because I was wondering (before this thread) if that would be an issue and if I needed to consider something else. Ads for CTC math keep popping up in my inbox (they certainly have an enthusiastic advertising person!), but I'm not ready to junk MM. I was also thinking of more purposely alternating topics -- or integrating them, in some ways I suppose -- like what maize described. That helps compensate for a bit of the weakness (for my kids) on mastery vs spiral. I just don't like when there would be multiple consecutive topics that omit or brush over some of the newer arithmetic skills. Now it's off to actually put all this talk into action -- wish me luck! :thumbup: