Stop Socializing Men to be Breadwinners

[SKL]

SKL, if all parents work, someone is caring for the kids directly during those work hours. It is not better or worse to use childcare, school, nannies, family, activities or stay at home parents (PT or FT). Parents do what they need to do and what works best for them. That is a good thing. But it is absolutely NOT INFERIOR for a family to opt to not outsource those things either by necessity or preference. You seem to be elevating money above and beyond all of the other factors that go into sustaining and nurturing a family.

 

When I worked long days with a spouse and family support and a small family we outsourced a lot of food and housework. I believe you have made many posts describing having family and babysitter help while working constantly. I am sure you respect the work that your teachers and babysitters do. Why less respect for moms and dads who do that work themselves? I am not saying one is better or worse. I've done a whole mix of things myself. Respecting the work, paid or unpaid, that comes with children is at the core of this speaker's message. We should not culturally devalue children by devaluing those that directly care for them during the work and non-work day.

 

I am enrolling soon to become a CPA and specialize in non-profit accounting and financial management. That is my return to work when the kids are older plan. But there is nothing better or worse about any of the myriad things I have done during the day as alternately both a working and stay at home parent. For us, for now, a stay at home parent is in fact an imperative and we are fortunate that we can swing it. I am also fortunate to be married to a man who values me fully regardless of how I use my time and talents.

 

I think people are missing the point of the TED talk.  It had nothing to do with who is going to do the hands-on day-to-day child care.  It was about being there to help your kids learn to make healthy choices as they grow up.

 

I said nothing to denigrate the choice to be a SAHM.  It's a valid choice, like many other valid choices, if it works for your family.  I am not elevating money above all else, but I do think each child is entitled to parents who at least try to provide the money to meet their needs.  How the parents break down this duty year by year is up to them.

 

I don't think it's responsible to teach either males or females, as they are growing up, that they are sure to have a choice not to work, and that they therefore need not prepare to be able / willing to work.  The title of this thread - I'm not sure anymore what it means, but I took it to mean that it is wrong to teach boys that if they become parents, they have a duty to provide financially.  I disagree with this, but I do believe both males and females should be brought up with the same sense of duty.

 

The value of child care services is obvious, that is why I pay for some of them and perform many others myself.  But again, I don't think that was the point of the TED talk at all.

 

When people misread my comments to the extent I see here, I assume people are touchy about stuff and that this is preventing them from comprehending what they are reading.

[SKL]

If the title of the thread had been "we should socialize men to be nurturing toward children" I would not disagree - though I think a high % of men are nurturing toward children, whether they work full-time or not.

[LucyStoner]

When people misread my comments to the extent I see here, I assume people are touchy about stuff and that this is preventing them from comprehending what they are reading.

Classy.

 

Of course, if someone disagrees with you they are "touchy" and lack reading comprehension skills. It seems to me you frequently make this claim. It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion when someone believes that disagreement with them is a reflection on the other person's abilities and emotional wherewithal and not merely a function of the other person having a different thought or opinion.

 

You are not being honest with yourself if you claim to have said nothing on this thread that disparages caregiving vs. wage earning.

[SKL]

Of course, if someone disagrees with you they are "touchy" and lack reading comphension skills. It seems to me you frequently make this claim. It is impossible to have a meanigful discussion when someone believes that disagreement with them is a reflection on the other person and not a function of the other person having a different thought or opinion.

 

I'm not sure we actually disagree in substance.  So yes, it is difficult to have a discussion in this situation.

[Alice]

Thank you for this. My guess is that it takes a somewhat advanced level of extroversion and confidence to be the SAHD that can maintain a network of accepting friends. I am not that guy, but then, I never was.

 

The best is when someone assumes DW teaches middle school fulltime AND homeschools DD every day. You can see the gears spinning before they ask "how does that work?"

 

That's funny, I would describe my dh as exactly that mix of extroversion and confidence. :) Or I think for him it's less that he just doesn't care much what other people think about him and his choices. I get the same looks when I say I work as a pediatrician and homeschool. Women get this "deer in the headlights look" and I know they are imagining trying to balance a job, homeschooling and doing all the things around the house they normally do. I typically describe our situation as "one full time stay at home parent" it's just that we both share that job. 

 

 

I didn't watch it.  I don't believe I socialize my boys to be breadwinners.  I also don't socialize them to be SAHDs.  I think most important is self sufficiency whether one is a man or a woman because at the end of the day, no matter what the future situation, you mostly have yourself to count on.

 

That said, I obviously can only go so far with my efforts if I'm modeling a traditional situation.  But I think the best thing my husband and I model is respect for each other.  My husband truly makes me feel respected for what I do.  And I respect him for what he does.  It isn't expected.  We never word it that way.  We always thank each other regularly for what the other one does.  We don't see it that one job is more important than the other. 

 

It's hard for me to say this without coming across as judgmental, but my husband and I both grew up with the idea that having a stay at home parent is important and valuable.  We believe it makes for a more ideal family life.  I know my husband would never have even a negative thought if I just woke up one day and said I want to work full time now.  And if there was a way to switch roles I wouldn't think less of him either.  We both care more about each other's happiness and well being than some sort of ideal, but we both do think there are benefits to having a stay at home parent.  I guess because we both had a stay at home parent ourselves.

 

 

Completely agree with this.

 

 

I don't think it's responsible to teach either males or females, as they are growing up, that they are sure to have a choice not to work, and that they therefore need not prepare to be able / willing to work.  The title of this thread - I'm not sure anymore what it means, but I took it to mean that it is wrong to teach boys that if they become parents, they have a duty to provide financially.  I disagree with this, but I do believe both males and females should be brought up with the same sense of duty.

 

 

 

I completely agree with this. It makes me just as upset to hear about people raising their daughters with the expectation that they may not ever have to work outside the home as it does to hear about people raising their sons to expect to only work outside the home. 

[LMV]

I might be teaching my dd that she needs to be prepared to be a breadwinner, but I have also taught her that when she is ready to have kids, she needs to be home for them at least until they are in school. Once they are in school, who knows, she might take a job or decide to stay home. I have taught my boys that they need to do whatever is necessary to try to support their family emotionally and physically. Yes I am teaching my boys to be primary breadwinners, although they have also seen the few times where SAHD is an option that is healthiest for the family. I think those times are the rarity though, not the norm. I do think that women are better at home when the children are small. I know that many, many people don't agree with me, but the female mind is different and we are better equipped at dealing with the chaos that small children bring. One the kids are school age, a SAHD would probably do as good a job as most mom's .

 

I do NOT think that being the primary breadwinner means that they don't input emotionally into the family. I think that it is tragic seeing how many dad's are uninvolved in their kids lives.

 

We do try to follow scripture here though and there is a scripture that says that if a man doesn't provide for his family he has denied the faith. Being a provider is more than being a breadwinner though.

 

While I respect your right to your opinion, I don't share it.  I have tried to teach our older children, of both genders, that once they have children of their own they need to step up to the plate and ensure their children are safe, supported, and provided for.  Ideally, I think it is best if one parent is able to be with the child the large majority of time.  This is what we have so far been able to provide for our children and what we continuing to strive towards providing in the future. (Our youngest is 17 months old.) I also hope that ideally none of our children will be in a situation where they are alone in the responsibility of raising our grandchildren.  Providing that the other parent of their child is involved in the child's life then I think their upbringing will remind them that they need to work with their child's other parent to provide. DH and I have always tried to model a very united parental front for all of our children and have tried to show by example the importance of collaboration, cooperation, and compromise.  Ideally, I think parents work together to raise their children and they decide together what roles are best for each at what times.  I do strongly disagree that SAHDs can't lovingly and capably care for children from the neonatal period onward.  Somewhat out of necessity I went back to working as a physician in the emergency department shortly after our youngest was born and left her home with her very loving, competent, and capable dad.  It wasn't the emotionally easiest thing to do and it was a bit of a logistical nightmare at times because I was very committed to breast feeding and her diet did consist of exclusive breast milk for the first six months of her life.  I pumped a lot and DH bottle fed a lot of expressed breast milk when I was working.  We all survived and I definitely think that there was good benefit to him doing a significant number of feedings and I'm glad they both had that bonding opportunity.  I'm glad enough that even if I had been a completely SAHM I would have pumped so he could feed her.  I would have done it in a bit more convenient fashion but I would have done it.  

 

This *frequently* isn't possible. A woman can get a degree, fine, good idea. She may even work in her early years. But, unless she keeps working, it won't matter much.

 

Really only one parent at a time can focus on their career. Someone has to be able to take kids to soccer and pick them up at school and take them home when they are sick.

 

Well paying jobs frequently require moving to get to the next pay grade or to check the next block. So, one person (usually the one who brings in less money) sacrifices. Maybe they move to an area where the second person can't find work or the job market is tight in their field. You just *can't* both have it all. Life doesn't usually work out that way.

 

I know a handful of power couples, but *all* of those I know have one person with a highly mobile career and have one or more of their own parents living with them to help with the house, cooking, kids and errands.

I'm not sure I would consider DH and I  a "power couple".  I think you need a bit of a different attitude than we have to really earn those stripes but, on paper, I suppose we might fit the bill as he is an attorney and I am a physician.  Over the years we've both looked at the  family impact as we've made career decisions and we've made that work.  We've both made some career sacrifices. DH doing corporate law is a bit of a career sacrifice.  He is a very talented prosecutor and a lot more doors could have and were opening from there but corporate law allows him much more flexibility he can adjust what he takes based on what is going on at home and the time he has.  Corporate law is also much more lucrative for him and while I'm a little afraid that doesn't send the best message about where our society is or is going it is what it is.  I switched into EM from a much more competitive residency with much more lucrative post residency opportunities.  I don't regret that. I know I would have been happy in my original specialty.  I enjoyed it a lot and I was good at it, and when I started that specialty the realities of it fit with where our family was and with where our kids were.  But things changed and I had to adapt.  It actually worked out pretty well. I enjoy EM most days, I've managed to make good use of my skills gained in my first specialty, and the EM lifestyle works much better for our family.     

[LMV]

I didn't watch it.  I don't believe I socialize my boys to be breadwinners.  I also don't socialize them to be SAHDs.  I think most important is self sufficiency whether one is a man or a woman because at the end of the day, no matter what the future situation, you mostly have yourself to count on.

 

That said, I obviously can only go so far with my efforts if I'm modeling a traditional situation.  But I think the best thing my husband and I model is respect for each other.  My husband truly makes me feel respected for what I do.  And I respect him for what he does.  It isn't expected.  We never word it that way.  We always thank each other regularly for what the other one does.  We don't see it that one job is more important than the other. 

 

It's hard for me to say this without coming across as judgmental, but my husband and I both grew up with the idea that having a stay at home parent is important and valuable.  We believe it makes for a more ideal family life.  I know my husband would never have even a negative thought if I just woke up one day and said I want to work full time now.  And if there was a way to switch roles I wouldn't think less of him either.  We both care more about each other's happiness and well being than some sort of ideal, but we both do think there are benefits to having a stay at home parent.  I guess because we both had a stay at home parent ourselves.

 

 

 

I don't disagree with any of this. DH and I both feel that ideally one of us would be home with the kids and we make it work by trading off in that role.  My mom was a SAHM until I was in middle school then she went back to teaching.  My MIL was a single mom most of DH's childhood.  His dad died when he was very young and she remarried when he was going off to college early. However, he stayed with his maternal grandmother and his uncle who was only a few years older than he is so I think he kind of had the pseudo SAHM experience even though his mom was in law school and then working as an attorney.  You and your DH have decided together that right now it makes the most sense for you to stay home all the time and that is working for you and your kids so I think that is great for you. Perhaps what is best in the future will be different, perhaps it won't but at least you're both open to considering that and I think that is important too.  

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

That's funny, I would describe my dh as exactly that mix of extroversion and confidence. :) Or I think for him it's less that he just doesn't care much what other people think about him and his choices. I get the same looks when I say I work as a pediatrician and homeschool. Women get this "deer in the headlights look" and I know they are imagining trying to balance a job, homeschooling and doing all the things around the house they normally do. 

 

I know that look!

 

It's like they're in a re-boot cycle and you have to just wait for the Windows login screen to appear again.

 

:laugh:

[LucyStoner]

I don't care what people think about me staying home. I know people say they feel disrespected and under appreciated or whatever, but no I did not get the memo.

 

I suppose as a guy it would be harder to find other SAH guys to hang out with. That's one aspect. Not so much that I think guys MUST only be friends with other guys. But truth be told, as a woman it isn't any easier. I don't have a bunch of SAHM friends. In my area I'm the exception. Of course it could be in part that I'm just not particularly friendly. LOL

I am neither a hippie earth mama or a gender traditionalist with religious and/or political reasons for staying home. So occasionally people just don't know what to do with me. I don't feel invisible or unappreciated but I also don't really have a tribe. IRL, I know 2 other college educated women who are SAHPs NOT for ideological reasons and both of them have some health issues that contribute to their decision to stay home. So it ain't easy for me (as a fairly extroverted type to boot) to find my peeps either. I don't really care but there are some places and people where I say what I do and their brains just don't know where they can file me and it shows in their eyes and words. As a dyed in the wool feminist married to a dyed in the wool feminist, staying home definitely raised some interesting personal and social questions for me.

[PeacefulChaos]

Ok, so I've skimmed/sort of read most of the thread, but have stayed out of the conversation because I didn't watch the TED talk because it just seemed foreign to me. I honestly didn't get it - it's just so outside my realm of normal or my realm of experience.

I've never in my life had any experience of parents raising boys to do one thing and girls to do another - in this case, work vs not, with some sort of weird idea that having a job just isn't something that girls would have to do.

 

I completely agree with this. It makes me just as upset to hear about people raising their daughters with the expectation that they may not ever have to work outside the home as it does to hear about people raising their sons to expect to only work outside the home.

 

Do people really do that? For real? :svengo:

Like, outside of some weird religion thing - I'm thinking like Mennonite or something uber conservative, which is a very small minority.

 

Like I said, it just seems foreign and weird. I mean, I've never been a woman with a big career dream, but I work now and I've worked before. I stumbled upon being a SAHM because it made more sense financially. I used to talk about getting my masters and my doctorate and becoming a college professor, and dh was always down with the idea and said he'd be happy to stay at home if we still wanted a sahp at the time. We've often talked about and looked at various options for our family that could, perhaps, over time increase our earning potential, that would require switching around who did what and everything...

But I think the biggest thing I'm thinking here is who really would raise their daughters not to have a dream beyond motherhood? That's such closed thinking... I can't even imagine it.

My grandma stayed at home with me because she could, so why not? But for most of my school age years, she worked a part time job that helped pay for our vacations every year, just because she could, so why not? But it was never something that was passed on to me as something I should do, just that it was something that some people do.

  

Definitely this is different for each person/situation.  I don't have any feelings about it either which way for other people. 

 

I do know that if we both worked we'd have to spend money on extra help to make that work.  Stuff like child care, transportation for the kids, etc.  I'm not sure it would be worthwhile to us to do that, but those are things that would need to be taken care of somehow because our kids are still at the stage where they would need those things.

 

For us it has nothing to do with DH being the man and me being the woman.  He makes more money and it is that much more where it makes no sense for me to work and him to stay home.  If it were the other way around we'd probably do things the other way around.

Your situation and ours are very similar. Like I said, I totally stumbled upon being a sahm - it was never my intent. It just made more sense. I always expected to go back to college when the kids were all in school, until I stumbled into being a homeschooling mom lol... Which is just as well because I still haven't decided what I want to be when I grow up. :p. My job I have now pays for extras, which is nice.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I have often thought that it would be ideal of society were set up in such a way that most jobs were available either FT or PT. It would be great if most families had the option to have each parent work say 25 hours per week in their career, instead most PT jobs being in retail or other low pay industries. I think it's ideal to have a parent home at all times with the kids (or another family member), but the current system leads most mothers to having to choose between working FT, staying home, or working PT or from home in a job they don't really like. Wouldn't it be great if there were half-time jobs available in teaching, engineering, business, and all the other industries? Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, health insurance and companies having salaried employees work unpaid overtime make the idea unattractive financially to corporations.

[LucyStoner]

I have often thought that it would be ideal of society were set up in such a way that most jobs were available either FT or PT. It would be great if most families had the option to have each parent work say 25 hours per week in their career, instead most PT jobs being in retail or other low pay industries. I think it's ideal to have a parent home at all times with the kids (or another family member), but the current system leads most mothers to having to choose between working FT, staying home, or working PT or from home in a job they don't really like. Wouldn't it be great if there were half-time jobs available in teaching, engineering, business, and all the other industries? Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, health insurance and companies having salaried employees work unpaid overtime make the idea unattractive financially to corporations.

Yeah, whatever happened to job sharing? 2 people splitting one professional well paid career position sounds about ideal.

 

We can only have "it all" if we realize that earning a lot of money is just not "it all". No one can work a FT demanding professional job and do everything that needs to be done for a family without some serious paid or unpaid help. There is a reason why parents who hold professional positions make more money if they have a stay at home spouse.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm not sure I would consider DH and I  a "power couple".  I think you need a bit of a different attitude than we have to really earn those stripes but, on paper, I suppose we might fit the bill as he is an attorney and I am a physician.  Over the years we've both looked at the  family impact as we've made career decisions and we've made that work.  We've both made some career sacrifices. DH doing corporate law is a bit of a career sacrifice.  He is a very talented prosecutor and a lot more doors could have and were opening from there but corporate law allows him much more flexibility he can adjust what he takes based on what is going on at home and the time he has.  Corporate law is also much more lucrative for him and while I'm a little afraid that doesn't send the best message about where our society is or is going it is what it is.  I switched into EM from a much more competitive residency with much more lucrative post residency opportunities.  I don't regret that. I know I would have been happy in my original specialty.  I enjoyed it a lot and I was good at it, and when I started that specialty the realities of it fit with where our family was and with where our kids were.  But things changed and I had to adapt.  It actually worked out pretty well. I enjoy EM most days, I've managed to make good use of my skills gained in my first specialty, and the EM lifestyle works much better for our family.

 

May I ask how old your oldest child is? Is it too presumptuous to ask how long you've been in your careers? My eldest child is 18. DH could retire from the military now, in theory. But, if he makes the next rank and waits 3 years, then he'd have a nicer retirement. In our little world (and every career field is completely different, I am in no way arguing that things are this way for everyone) there is a solid up or out policy. If you're not in competitive mode, then you *can't* stay, you'll face mandatory retirement or you'll simply be forced out *without* retirement, if it's too early for you to retire. I know there are a lot of career fields like that. If you aren't willing to move/travel/work long hours/entertain clients/whatever the issue is in a particular industry, then you'll have trouble with career longevity. It's sometimes easier to keep things balanced at the beginning of a career than toward the end. But, I don't know how old you are, so maybe this is something you and your dh *have*managed all of this time, which would be pretty impressive. :D

 

Yeah, whatever happened to job sharing? 2 people splitting one professional well paid career position sounds about ideal.

 

We can only have "it all" if we realize that earning a lot of money is just not "it all". No one can work a FT demanding professional job and do everything that needs to be done for a family without some serious paid or unpaid help. There is a reason why parents who hold professional positions make more money if they have a stay at home spouse.

I agree on all counts.

 

Does the "job sharing" thing make anyone else think of the movie 9 to 5? Am I showing my age? LOL

[Critterfixer]

Anybody got a link to the transcript of this talk? I can't deal with videos. My internet connection makes watching even a minute of anything a torture session.

[LMV]

 

May I ask how old your oldest child is? Is it too presumptuous to ask how long you've been in your careers? My eldest child is 18. DH could retire from the military now, in theory. But, if he makes the next rank and waits 3 years, then he'd have a nicer retirement. In our little world (and every career field is completely different, I am in no way arguing that things are this way for everyone) there is a solid up or out policy. If you're not in competitive mode, then you *can't* stay, you'll face mandatory retirement or you'll simply be forced out *without* retirement, if it's too early for you to retire. I know there are a lot of career fields like that. If you aren't willing to move/travel/work long hours/entertain clients/whatever the issue is in a particular industry, then you'll have trouble with career longevity. It's sometimes easier to keep things balanced at the beginning of a career than toward the end. But, I don't know how old you are, so maybe this is something you and your dh *have*managed all of this time, which would be pretty impressive. :D

 

 

1.)Our oldest daughter turned eighteen last fall.  She is a freshman in college on the other side of the country.  

2.)DH and I both started college a little young. We both survived, and I suppose even thrived, but perhaps we also both wonder if it might have been better to have waited a little and we intentionally held our oldest daughter back a bit so she was seventeen approaching eighteen when she started college.  I think she may have a little easier logistical route in ways than we did for that reason.  DH has now been an attorney for twenty three years.  He started out as an assistant county prosecutor, ventured into corporate law after his first wife's death because it worked better with raising their son (yes, his mom and his first MIL helped out but he raised his own child), he later went back to working as an assistant county prosecutor for about six months and then became the lead county prosecutor at the next election cycle.  He intentionally did not run in 2010 because I really needed to go back to working closer to full time and we knew we couldn't swing that with him having the hours and court requirements he had (especially after a staffing cut in his office). The increased income was a nice bonus but it was not the motivation. Being a younger college student, my first doctoral degree was actually in PT, not medicine.  I went to medical school, did one very competitive residency and life changed and I realized that I couldn't have a high hours, high OR time,  and high call career and a really sick child.  I actually contemplated leaving medicine altogether but after some thought and discussions with DH opted to pursue EM as a second residency.  I was a bit fortunate that my program director worked with me to give me as much advanced standing as possible so I managed to skip over most of the off service call requiring months and was mostly working in the department so the shift work option was there. To some extent, at least where I trained but I have friends in EM who trained elsewhere and they also were allowed to shuffle the department schedule as long as all shifts were covered and no one whined too much, I could work a lot around when DH could be home.  I worked a lot of what many of my colleagues considered crappy shifts but we made it work.   Obviously I had to work more required shifts as a resident than I do as an attending but it was doable and workable with DH's schedule and some back up from my MIL and mom.  (Neither lived with us and both had their own careers going on in parallel at the time as well.) Going back and doing something that had lots of call requirements (even though call got much more resident friendly in 2003 and beyond) would have probably been off the table but then I mainly opted to do EM because of the call free nature.  I do have ICU admitting/consult privileges locally for toxicology (I did a Tox fellowship off of EM recently) but I've been able to make that work on my terms quite well.  Our poison control center moved physically into our local hospital last summer so I do their in services now which has been kind of fun. 

3.)In medicine, in my experience, I think the biggest thing is to have some continual involvement. The field does change and you really need to keep up with things or you loose your skills. So women (or men) who take four years off and don't work at all may have problems not raising a red flag or two when applying for that first job back.  Some states also want to deactivate licenses if you haven't practiced actively for a period.  Other states require more CME if you aren't actively practicing but don't otherwise have a problem.  In contrast I think women (or men) who opt to work 1 day a week when their spouse can be home with the kids eliminate all of those possible problems even though perhaps they are working ~8hrs/week on average.  Some of this depends on field.  I wouldn't find it hard in EM to do something like this, have done this in the past, and may do it in the future.  I would have had trouble doing this in my original specialty hence the move into EM.  My kids' pediatrician would find it hard to drop down to those hours and would have some obligation to her patients still "after hours" (what that obligation is and how everything is defined varies a bit from state to state---at least in the group of states I'm licensed in). 

4.)Some of DH's trajectory has probably been helped by the fact that he is just very talented at what he does.  He was a brilliant litigator and he has the personality and attributes to play the corporate game well.  I think, at the end of the day, if he didn't have a family he would probably be our state's attorney general but he does have a family and he is an amazing dad and he loves his little girls (and his older sons) and the moments in their lives so the compromise is there and it works. 

5.)I have probably had support from DH that may be atypical (although DSS and DFS seem to have learned from this and I see them being supportive of their wives in similar ways) but he comes from a family of very intelligent women who have been valued for their contributions in all aspects.  His family is very physician inundated and many of those physicians are female so I think when I was contemplating leaving medicine that perhaps felt more wrong to him than it did to me.  I also think that his family is very hands on dad oriented. Admittedly his own father died too young to have many moments with him but his mother's second husband has always been a very involved dad.  His uncles drive carpool, help pass on the family recipes by teaching their kids how to make them, and make it to their share of soccer games, swim meets, and horse shows.  They both happen to be surgeons (one for children, one for large animals) and they're both married to women who they met in their respective medical and vet school classes. Their wives both actively practice and work with their husbands to raise children.  I think it is a very cooperative and collaborative approach.  It works for us collectively.  Other things and approaches may work better for other families.  I'm not trying to  suggest everyone should, or could, take our approach, I'm just sharing our experiences. 

[SKL]

I agree with all of this, except I'd like to add that if families do hire a nanny or use childcare, especially in middle class two income families who have choices about how to use their discretionary income, make sure you are paying your carers a decent wage. Otherwise your family is profiting off theirs, and we really need to care about all families, not just our own.

 

When I had a full-time nanny, she was netting more than I was.  So, I agree with you.  I have never been one to scrimp on paying for services.  As a result, I have access to a network of people who can help with different things.  I don't call on them much, but it's nice to know they are there.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

I think it is a very cooperative and collaborative approach.  It works for us collectively.  Other things and approaches may work better for other families.  I'm not trying to  suggest every should or could take our approach, I'm just sharing our experiences.

It was great learning about your experiences. I really hope to societal level changes in the future that allow more people to find the sort of balance that you've managed. Honestly, it's better for all of us, IMO.

[LucyStoner]

Great!

 

So if you valued your nanny and the work she did by paying her highly, why would you not place equally high value on the same work done by a SAHM ? I assume you didn't pay her so well just to sing the midday lullaby ?

I could probably get people to pay me to NOT sing a lullaby. Hmm, I may be onto a lucrative side gig.

[SKL]

Great!

 

So if you valued your nanny and the work she did by paying her highly, why would you not place equally high value on the same work done by a SAHM ? I assume you didn't pay her so well just to sing the midday lullaby ?

 

A nanny is not a SAHM.  It is not comparable.  A nanny's work is adverse to her family/relaxation time.  A mom's time spent with her own kids is beneficial to her family.

 

Besides, that isn't what the TED talk is about.

[unsinkable]

There are those of us without emotional involvement who are interested in the answers to the questions she asked.

 

 

I am not in the same field as you are so I cannot give input on your field. But I will answer from my experience. I am another single mother by choice. 3 years ago my son was DX with a disease that will slowly cripple him and could result in his death. At the time it was fast progressing and he went from athletic and active to unable to walk. I walked away from a career that would have not only been satisfying but allowed me the freedom to work from home travel some and I would be making well over six figures a year. I was being ask to expand into a 4th state and I was discussing taking my business and making it into a franchise.

 

It has only been 3 years, I have stayed involved in my field but not like I was. I still am one of the leading experts in my area and on very rare occasions I offer my services at no charge as a consultant for friends. If I were to decide to pick up where I left off I would not be able to. Everything moves fast and it was a full time job just to keep up on everything while working. I take that back. It was more than a full time job. I actually hired someone part time to help me keep up.

 

3 years and I am already obsolete. 20 and I would be better off switching careers.

It's awesome that you went from earning your linguistic paleontolgy degree to leaving college to nearly earning a six figure income.

 

I'd like to know what field that was so I can point my children towards researching it.

[fraidycat]

We all want choices.

 

How about men work to raise the value of the caring work traditionally associated with women ? When men work in high status jobs, no-one thinks they are weird. The reason a SAHD is 'weird' is because he's voluntarily 'acting like a woman' and taking on the low status job. Raise the status, the weirdness disappears.

Please excuse my (lack of) reading comprehension here, my kids are both engaged in noisy distracting activities right now. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, disagreeing with me, or what?

[LucyStoner]

I agree with all of this, except I'd like to add that if families do hire a nanny or use childcare, especially in middle class two income families who have choices about how to use their discretionary income, make sure you are paying your carers a decent wage. Otherwise your family is profiting off theirs, and we really need to care about all families, not just our own.

In my experience middle class families have the least choice about childcare options. They make too little to afford the best that affluent families can access and too much to get childcare subsidies. Because we would need special care (older son has autism), I could easily spend all of my net earning power on paying for substitute care and that is with a college degree and a very competitive résumé for my field. In the absence of specialized care or a parent available during the day my son would seriously suffer. It's not just low income people who can't afford well compensated childcare.

[fraidycat]

 

That said, I obviously can only go so far with my efforts if I'm modeling a traditional situation.  But I think the best thing my husband and I model is respect for each other.  My husband truly makes me feel respected for what I do.  And I respect him for what he does.  It isn't expected.  We never word it that way.  We always thank each other regularly for what the other one does.  We don't see it that one job is more important than the other. 

 

 

 

I agree.  We are modeling traditional roles, but my husband and I verbally thank each other on a regular basis for each of our contributions to our life.  When he's heading out the door for work when he'd rather stay home, or comes home after having a particularly stressful day, I say "Thank you for doing that for us.  For me.  For the kids, and even for the cats. ;)"

 

Same goes for him.  If the kids are driving me nuts, or I'm tearing my hair out over math, or feeding our picky son, or whatever - he says thanks me and reminds me that what I'm doing is important and that HE appreciates it, and it actually takes stress off of him, knowing that he can go to work and know that I've "got it covered" at home.  His childhood was dysfunctional, so he has a point of reference from the "other side" that I don't have.

[fraidycat]

Just coming at it from a different perspective. Agreeing, but qualifying  with my thoughts on the way society will achieve that 'no more weirdness.'

 

Ok, that's what I was leaning toward, but didn't want to assume.  Thanks for clarifying.  :)

[LucyStoner]

Much depends on ones definition of middle class :)

Well for my purposes I quite literally mean middle, as in the arithmetic middle. The median income in my area is $72,000. With both of us working we would be (and were) a fair bit above that but it simply not enough to afford to live here and pay for any sort of halfway good childcare for a special needs child. It made no sense to work full time to approximate what I do for him and opposite shifts and family care just were just no longer realistic or healthy. We are better off not playing that game of musical paychecks. Even without special considerations, quality childcare with well paid providers here is $18,000 a year. That is not affordable to people in the middle. I've written many a grant proposal for funding for non-profit child devo centers to bump their payscale.

[texasmama]

Ironically, I went for my physical today and spoke to my doctor about the fact that she has just enrolled her two elementary kids in a university model school.  She is cutting back her hours to accomodate this.  I told her that was cool, as long as she didn't cut me off her list of patients.  :D  Her dh is also a physician, but I believe he works full time.

 

During a rough spot for my dh's small business a few years back, I took a full time job, the first time I've worked full time since I was a single parent in the late 90's.  Dh, my dad and a paid college student took over many of my duties.  After nine months, I moved to part-time work, which I did for another year and a half.  I just quit my 25 hour a week job to move to a better paying and more rewarding 8 hour a week job.  But I am worn completely out after two and a half years of working and homeschooling.  I wish I could take a year completely off from work before going back to doing therapy, which I enjoy and find rewarding.  It also pays better than the current part-time job.  But during my time of full time work, I was the major breadwinner for the family.  I did it out of necessity.  I hated it.  Dh hated it.  The children hated it.  It worked poorly for our family.

 

We are non-traditional in some ways, but our family works best when I am available to do most of the work running a household and schooling the children.  I just happen to be pretty good at that job.

[Trish]

We're socializing our sons to be breadwinners. That doesn't rule out their potential wives also winning bread to whatever level they can achieve gluten. Also they should be socialized to be equal partners in terms of getting the needs of the family met, however that works out between them and any future spouses.

 

But socializing them NOT to be breadwinners?

 

No.

[fraidycat]

We're socializing our sons to be breadwinners. That doesn't rule out their potential wives also winning bread to whatever level they can achieve gluten. Also they should be socialized to be equal partners in terms of getting the needs of the family met, however that works out between them and any future spouses.

 

But socializing them NOT to be breadwinners?

 

No.

 

I think the intent is against JUST being breadwinners.  It's not an either/or thing.  It's about finding balance - which will vary from one family to the next.

[Soror]

I've thought and thought about this. I've not really considered how we are socializing our son or daughters irt who is the breadwinner. I fill the traditional sahm role but our relationship is rather collaborative. I believe it is our responsibility to educate them to our ability and their potential and help them find a job/career that will support them and their families. As to how they choose to structure their families and work load I've not put much thought into that because it is their decision, not mine. I'd be rather disappointed if my son/daughter ended up working so much they never got to see their family or if either was in a controlling marriage. I do hope they are able to find balance.  I hope there are more options when they grow up. 

 

For me personally I wanted to stay at home because I so wished my mother would have been able to stay at home, it was her great desire and I think would have been a great benefit to us. Or if she would have worked a job that allowed her to just be there from the time we got home and during our summers off. I've never thought about sahds much tbh as that is so uncommon, especially where I live, but I could certainly see dads fulfilling that role. I see the mom as the logical choice for babies due to nursing and extended nursing. Past that stage I guess whatever works for any particular family is good.

 

My thought is that we will keep on modeling collaboration, guide them towards finding a job that fits them, and reinforce the importance of family over money (while throwing in a good measure of financial responsibility education).