high school math for a dyslexic/dysgraphic 4th grader with delusions of grandeur

[OneStepAtATime]

My DS has announced that he really wants to tackle "high school level math" and because of a misunderstanding, he thought I said "Yes, of course you are ready.  Let's start next week."  I do not recall the conversation going that way at all, but I was wondering if there was anything out there that a 4th grader a bit behind in computational math skills but able to understand higher level math concepts might be able to do that would be more interesting yet still attainable than standard elementary math practice?  Does that make any sense?  He is really bored and wants a "thinking" challenge.

 

Would Beast Academy fit the bill?  I know it is supposed to be more of a thinking persons math...

 

And to clarify, we will continue to work on computation.  He just really wants more mental math challenges...

[Terabith]

Give Beast a shot.  It's fun and a solid program, and it uses some algebra ish.

[FairProspects]

Have you tried the Zacarro books? Those are great. Math for Smarty Pants is another good one and Hands on Equations is algebra with manipulatives.

 

Beast is a tough go with computational issues. It also assumes that kids are fast processors. There are chapters that we have loved but much of the challenge is crazy hard computations. It is frustrating because I see how great it is for geometry for us but it is unnecessarily difficult for ds in other parts just because of the computations.

 

What do you use for math now?

[TxMama]

Have you looked at Khan Academy? My 11 yo enjoyed the algebra lectures and it reinforced that he really does need to continue to work at his current level so that he can solve all those wonderful math problems to come.

[OneStepAtATime]

Give Beast a shot.  It's fun and a solid program, and it uses some algebra ish.

 

Ok. went ahead and ordered 3A just to give it a shot.  Thanks.

 

Have you tried the Zacarro books? Those are great. Math for Smarty Pants is another good one and Hands on Equations is algebra with manipulatives.

 

Beast is a tough go with computational issues. It also assumes that kids are fast processors. There are chapters that we have loved but much of the challenge is crazy hard computations. It is frustrating because I see how great it is for geometry for us but it is unnecessarily difficult for ds in other parts just because of the computations.

 

What do you use for math now?

 

I think we have Math For Smarty Pants on a shelf somewhere. I will pull it out.  I have not heard of the Zacarro books but I looked them up and they look VERY interesting.  Any suggestion on which one to try?  Hands on Equations looks great!  But it looks like the homeschool version doesn't include the physical balance.  How helpful is it to have that?  He does great with manipulatives so even if he wasn't ready for this yet, it is definitely something to consider for the future!!

 

I appreciate the concerns with Beast Academy.  I will look it over and see how we might be able to implement it on the side without overwhelming him.  He loves cartoons and math challenges but computation is still slower than other 4th graders...

 

For background, poor DS has had a bit of an erratic math experience the last year and a half, which is why he is a bit behind in math, plus his dysgraphia means if he is not doing the math problems on computer or verbally, he is really, really slow.  He completed 2nd grade math (using one curriculum from the brick and mortar we pulled him out of mid-2nd grade year plus he did all of Time 4 Learning 2nd grade) without an issue, but he wrote so slowly that I thought maybe he could have processing issues.  We didn't really understand his dysgraphia problems yet since his handwriting, when writing very slowly, is quite legible.  

 

When DD (12 and in 6th) came home that next fall and was so far behind in math and really didn't seem to UNDERSTAND basic math concepts, I started them both over several times with different programs (MUS, MOTL, Harcourt, Jump Math, etc.) trying to find something that would make sense to poor DD.  DS just got dragged a long and now, a year and a half later, has gaps.  

 

We finally started over at the subitization level just a couple of months ago or so, which is really helping DD (yeah!) and it actually has sped up DS's computation skills.  We are using Dynamo Math (British program for kids who struggle with math and goes from subitization skills through addition, subtraction, multiplication and division) and the Ronit Bird books to solidify subitization skills and basic computation.  He is breezing through both and picking things up again that he seemed to have lost for a while.  Perfect scores after ever lesson.  He has also done TT level 4, and is getting perfect scores there, too, but he wants math challenges and puzzles.   He likes the computer format for TT, but gets bored, and hit an area he needed additional instruction so we stepped away from it for a couple of weeks to work on that.  

 

We are supplementing with MM (just started right after Christmas) since he and DD both like sometimes just sitting and doing a worksheet instead of the intensity of the Dynamo Math remediation program.  I like the hands on suggestions in MM teacher instructions and we have incorporated a lot of that with great success and both kids are doing fine with the worksheets but we are still at 2nd grade level math in that program.  DS LOVES the sort of pre-algebra problems in MM where you are essentially solving for X at the addition and subtraction level.  I realized in using MM, he is extremely weak in basic geometry skills even though that was a strength when he was little.  Just lack of consistent exposure I guess.  He also has not had much experience with multiplication or division since we kept bouncing programs last year and DD was not ready to tackle those.  Idiot me I didn't have DS continue through any program we started.  I just started them both over each time.

 

 I will be honest, I had no idea how to deal with DDs struggles with math and I was a total rookie, unexpected homeschooler with no one local to advise me.  I was so focused on DD's math issues and on all the remediation for reading with both of them, that math for DS just was whatever I was using with DD and he is suffering for it now.  Trying to go back, shore up the gaps, speed up the computation, yet still give him something he finds fun and interesting and a bit of a challenge.  He likes math. And he enjoys Dynamo Math.  But he really wants to delve into higher level math thinking and is convinced he can do it. I have been moving him through Dynamo Math and MM pretty quickly since he really wants to and is doing fine.  When we come to areas he isn't as solid, we slow down.  He just suddenly is convinced, though, that he would do better if he was trying to tackle really advanced math and had to think hard about math problems instead of just working on computation.

 

Have you looked at Khan Academy? My 11 yo enjoyed the algebra lectures and it reinforced that he really does need to continue to work at his current level so that he can solve all those wonderful math problems to come.

Sounds good.  I had looked at Khan Academy a long time ago, but didn't follow through with it.  So many other math programs we were working with, it just got lost in the shuffle.  I will look at it again.

 

DS loves narration and grasps concepts well if in a story format.  How would Life of Fred be with that?  I haven't ever used the program and would have no idea where to start, but I think it is math in story format isn't it?

[geodob]

The basic difference between lower and higher level math?

Is that lower level math starts with a question and logically arrives at an answer.

But with higher level math, it starts with the answer and what is identified ?  Is how it was arrived at?

Where what is identified, are variables.

Understanding variables is the key to higher level math.

Yet is equally the key to higher level thinking.

Where a variable may not involve math?

Such as who sits next to who, around a table?

[OneStepAtATime]

The basic difference between lower and higher level math?

Is that lower level math starts with a question and logically arrives at an answer.

But with higher level math, it starts with the answer and what is identified ?  Is how it was arrived at?

Where what is identified, are variables.

Understanding variables is the key to higher level math.

Yet is equally the key to higher level thinking.

Where a variable may not involve math?

Such as who sits next to who, around a table?

He loves figuring out variables and puzzles.  And you are right, this doesn't just come up in math settings.  I don't know if anyone here remembers the one season of Ellery Queen that aired ages and ages ago but the audience was given clues so they could try solving the mystery before Ellery.  DS LOVES that show.  We have a bunch of old shows on DVD.

[geodob]

You could take it to the next step?

Where after he has figured out the variables that arrived at a conclusion?

That he might then consider the effect of changes to a variable/s?

Which might lead to a different conclusion?

Or arrive at the same conclusion, but by a different way?

 

Where this thinking is what has produced most scientific developments.

Where people have changed a variable, and identified a new way to arrive at a conclusion.

 

[Heathermomster]

You could purchase the DragonBox app.  Maybe take a look at the area model of multiplication (Ronit Bird explains this in one of her books) and teach him the distributive property.  Hands on Equations is fun and goes on sale over at the HS Buyer Co-op from time to time.

[wapiti]

Totally random thoughts off the top of my head:  I don't remember what geometry looks like in the lower levels of MM, but in the upper levels, some lessons are a bit too reliant on fine motor skills (measuring angles and such) for dysgraphic kids.  We focused more on the lessons that didn't involve those skills.  I think you will appreciate the geometry sections in BA 3A(?).  When he's older, he may also like the geometry sections in aops prealgebra.

 

- Due to the dysgraphia, I recommend allowing as much oral work as makes sense for the situation.  Scribe if possible.  If he must write something, I *highly* recommend using a white board as there is so much less friction/resistance when writing.

 

- If he has visual-spatial strengths, use those whenever possible.  For things like multiplication facts, I'd do a lot of filling in of charts and talking about the patterns.  As long as necessary or as long as he's interested, I'd encourage the use of manipulatives for skip-counting generally and to help fill in a multiplication chart.

 

- I *really really like* your thoughts about exposure to higher-thinking math.  There are so many stories of people who unfortunately didn't realize how mathy they were until they got that little taste of "real math" when they were older.

 

- Is this the kiddo with vision issues?  have they been "fixed" already or is that something in progress? (LOL as if anything is ever all the way fixed) (or am I remembering wrong?  possible)  I am convinced that those sorts of problems can have a huge affect on learning elementary arithmetic.

 

- Even while he's working on, say, lower math levels, if he may be 2e, try to continue incorporating new, higher-level topics for which you won't be pushing for mastery but for using the more complicated topic as context for the easier one.  The harder topic is the big picture.  **Sometimes hard-is-easy and easy-is-hard.**  I wish I had a good example but I would just try things out, whatever makes sense to you.

 

- For Zaccaro, I think the book you'd want is Primary Grade Challenge Math.

 

- When it comes to fractions/decimals/percents/ratios, focus on the fact that these are all just different ways of representing the same concepts (wholes vs parts).  MM is particularly good for showing this, and I would not be shy about pulling out pages from the upper MM levels to work on this (look for the ratio lessons with the little pictures of groups of things).  If understanding these concepts turns out to be a strength, run with it - it's huge.

[OneStepAtATime]

Totally random thoughts off the top of my head:  I don't remember what geometry looks like in the lower levels of MM, but in the upper levels, some lessons are a bit too reliant on fine motor skills (measuring angles and such) for dysgraphic kids.  We focused more on the lessons that didn't involve those skills.  I think you will appreciate the geometry sections in BA 3A(?).  When he's older, he may also like the geometry sections in aops prealgebra.

 

- Due to the dysgraphia, I recommend allowing as much oral work as makes sense for the situation.  Scribe if possible.  If he must write something, I *highly* recommend using a white board as there is so much less friction/resistance when writing.

 

- If he has visual-spatial strengths, use those whenever possible.  For things like multiplication facts, I'd do a lot of filling in of charts and talking about the patterns.  As long as necessary or as long as he's interested, I'd encourage the use of manipulatives for skip-counting generally and to help fill in a multiplication chart.

 

When he was younger I thought he had some deficits in visual-spatial strengths because his sister was so much stronger in that area.  Now I realize that he is either normal or a bit above average in this area.  She is just way above normal in this area.  I will keep these suggestions in mind.  Thanks.  

 

And scribing for him really has helped.  I started him on 1st grade level MM worksheets because I wasn't sure where all the gaps were and he blew through 8-17 a day when I was scribing for him.  I still have him do some writing with paper and pencil for handwriting practice and strengthening muscles, etc. but with math it is now mainly scribing and manipulatives.  I just need to work it all into a more cohesive whole, KWIM?

 

- I *really really like* your thoughts about exposure to higher-thinking math.  There are so many stories of people who unfortunately didn't realize how mathy they were until they got that little taste of "real math" when they were older.

 

This is what happened to DH.  They kept repeating lower level math but he is almost certainly dysgraphic as well as dyslexic and could not pass timed tests.  Yet when he was finally given the chance to do higher level math, he went all the way up through calculus.  He just needs extra time.  He still cannot process basic computations quickly, because he sometimes reverses numbers, even in his head, but he is really great with higher level math concepts.  I suspect DS will be the same.

 

- Is this the kiddo with vision issues?  have they been "fixed" already or is that something in progress? (LOL as if anything is ever all the way fixed) (or am I remembering wrong?  possible)  I am convinced that those sorts of problems can have a huge affect on learning elementary arithmetic.

 

Your memory is good.  Yes, this is the child I think has some possible vision issues.  Going in for an evaluation at the end of this week, but I am uncertain how much we will learn.  The eye doctor says he does Developmental eye exams but he is not listed with the COVD.  Going to call tomorrow to ask additional questions.  

 

- Even while he's working on, say, lower math levels, if he may be 2e, try to continue incorporating new, higher-level topics for which you won't be pushing for mastery but for using the more complicated topic as context for the easier one.  The harder topic is the big picture.  **Sometimes hard-is-easy and easy-is-hard.**  I wish I had a good example but I would just try things out, whatever makes sense to you.

 

I just wish I was better at math.  I made it all the way through school with solid A's and B's (until the year I did Algebra II and Trig in the same year), but I don't think I really understood even half of what I was doing.  I was just good at regurgitating.  I need something very clearly explained to me, in small step by step procedures or I can't really process and understand it, then teach it very effectively at all.

 

- For Zaccaro, I think the book you'd want is Primary Grade Challenge Math.

 

I have gone ahead and ordered it.  I am actually forgoing trading in my ancient van for a while longer so we have the financial resources to bring in more material to help the kids with their education and to get additional evals.  She's a good van and she may not win a beauty contest but she is still hanging in there.   :)  I'd rather have the resources for the kids at this point, especially with Middle School/High School on the horizon for each of them.  

 

- When it comes to fractions/decimals/percents/ratios, focus on the fact that these are all just different ways of representing the same concepts (wholes vs parts).  MM is particularly good for showing this, and I would not be shy about pulling out pages from the upper MM levels to work on this (look for the ratio lessons with the little pictures of groups of things).  If understanding these concepts turns out to be a strength, run with it - it's huge.

 

I will look at the higher level sections of these.  Thanks for the suggestion.

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond, and with such depth, wapiti.  Really appreciate the input.

 

 

Love you all!!!!  Thanks so much for all the help and support.  DS has already come up to me three times today asking when we can start ramping up history, math and science more so he is definitely enthused.  I don't want to squash that returning enthusiasm with boring material or stuff I can't figure out how to teach.  All of the support here keeps me focused on what really matters.  Thanks!

[PeterPan]

I'll be weirdo and say I'd probably lean toward something streamlined like the Dolciani pre-algebra (a very good text!) or the Hands-On Equations stuff.  In fact, I can say I HIGHLY recommend HOE to you.  Won't hurt a lick, and he might actually be ready for it.  Won't have much computation.  On the Dolciani, honestly I'd give him a calculator and let him plow forward.  He has to keep doing his regular math that you've got him in to fill in his gaps, but then if he wants to do Dolciani as well, he gets to use the calculator.  And tell him for every chapter of Dolciani he completes, you'll give him $5.  Then walk away and let him sink or swim as he wishes.  :)

[FairProspects]

I'll be weirdo and say I'd probably lean toward something streamlined like the Dolciani pre-algebra (a very good text!) or the Hands-On Equations stuff.  In fact, I can say I HIGHLY recommend HOE to you.  Won't hurt a lick, and he might actually be ready for it.  Won't have much computation.  On the Dolciani, honestly I'd give him a calculator and let him plow forward.  He has to keep doing his regular math that you've got him in to fill in his gaps, but then if he wants to do Dolciani as well, he gets to use the calculator.  And tell him for every chapter of Dolciani he completes, you'll give him $5.  Then walk away and let him sink or swim as he wishes.   :)

 

A jump to pre-algebra with a kid who hasn't yet had much exposure to multiplication and division? Not sure that is the way I would go. I'm not even sure ds is ready for pre-algebra yet and all he is missing is decimal work. HOE or Zacarro would be my recommendation. The homeschool kit comes with a laminated sheet to use as the balance and it works great. Zacarro will also introduce high level concepts but without a focus on the arithmetic he hasn't had yet.

[MomatHWTK]

I intro'd pre-alg with my youngers along with my oldest.  I take him a little more in depth but allow them the first exposure to variables, etc.

[PeterPan]

A jump to pre-algebra with a kid who hasn't yet had much exposure to multiplication and division? Not sure that is the way I would go. I'm not even sure ds is ready for pre-algebra yet and all he is missing is decimal work. HOE or Zacarro would be my recommendation. The homeschool kit comes with a laminated sheet to use as the balance and it works great. Zacarro will also introduce high level concepts but without a focus on the arithmetic he hasn't had yet.

Sorry, I missed the part about no multi/div.  (They were throwing around lots of curriculum labels, and I haven't really kept up with all of them.)  You know, sometimes you just make things work.  Sometimes they intuit things they can't compute.  If he's really superbright, he might enjoy the word problems.  And since you can get a copy for p-nuts used, it's not a horribly expensive thing to explore.  

 

I had some Zaccaro stuff and we weren't fans.  For dd it was just sort of more work, nothing really intriguing.  Seems like a lot of people like it though.  Depending on where he's at, might even be better to translate that wish into something like more mature board games.  Ticket to Ride will stretch his brain for the math and have a higher age range on the box.  Cribbage, anything with complex scoring so it feels more mature but still hits your target skills.

[Pen]

math books: Balance Math, Balance Math Teaches Algebra

 

DVD: The Story of Math

 

science book using math, but starts just with easy idea of graphing: Force&Motion

 

maybe Calculus without Tears

 

on Khan Academy have him also look at the Vi Hart parts.

[OneStepAtATime]

Still digging through everything.  Thanks so much for the great responses!

[EKS]

If or when you decide to move into algebra, my dyslexic son did very well with Jacobs Algebra at 10/11yo.

[Julie of KY]

Here's another recommendation for Zacarro's Primary Grade Challenge math. It covers a wide range of topics and skill levels.

 

Something else you might look at is Balance Benders - these are basically algebra problems done with shapes.

 

I would definitely support exposure to higher level thinking while working on foundational skills.

 

Another thing I've done with my kids that need help in a specific area like multiplication/division (or anything else) is buy the Math Mammoth worksheets for that area and work through them alongside whatever else you are doing.

[FairProspects]

If or when you decide to move into algebra, my dyslexic son did very well with Jacobs Algebra at 10/11yo.

 

After looking at a few options, I think this is my next plan.

[Pen]

Integrated Mathematics Program is an actual 9th Grade textbook he might be able to tackle. Since this may be a common title, this particular one has near the beginning a puzzle about eggs. Later, I think, an Oregon Trail problem, and later still one having something to do with The Pit and The Pendulum.  It is not considered a very rigorous program for the high school level (compared to say AoPS), but might provide a truly high school level text that he could start work on now. It is full of math as puzzles type problems. And maybe he'd be willing to work on what he needs to learn to be able to do the more interesting/fun puzzles.

 

I think most of the other suggestions I and others have given are not true high school materials. Balance Math (Critical Thinking Co)somewhat  like Hands on Equations but as books, really does teach some algebra in a conceptual way that he could well be able to do without any further math beyond what he has now, especially if you start him at its lowest level and he works up. 

 

Some of the suggestions may be hard with dyslexia. I think Zacarro is lots of fun, and has a lot of important information in it, but the busy cartoony pages with a lot of writing may be hard to deal with where there is dyslexia. ??? I guess it depends on exactly how the dyslexia presents itself.

 

If he can read the cartoons and so on, Beast Academy might be fun for him at his current level, and a way to learn multiplication and division that is more fun and more "mathy" than some other options, but I don't think it should be presented to him as that he is doing high school math, since so far as I know it is only out for 3rd and 4th grade levels.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks everyone.  Really appreciate all the great responses.  

[Pen]

Correction and added info:

 

A book I meant above is IMP for Interactive Mathematics Program -- it says it is a high school program right on the cover. It is Discovery oriented, and I think in some ways may be more accessible than Beast Academy's grade 3 material is. Authors are Fendel, Resek, Alper and Fraser. Key Curriculum Press.

 

Example of an early problem from the year 1 book: the text gives a scenario where a farmer is taking her eggs to market and they all break.

 

To claim insurance, she needs to know how many eggs there were. She does not know for sure, but recalls that when packing them she found that when she tried groups of 2 there was 1 egg left over. When she tried groups of 3 there was also 1 left over. The same thing happened with groups of 4, 5 and 6 eggs. But when in groups of 7 there were none left over.

 

"What can the farmer figure out from this information about how many eggs she had?

 

Is there more than one possibility?"

 

And then for the next "homework" it says some students think 49 would be the correct answer, and asks the student to explain why it's not.

 

If this is the sort of thing that might appeal to your ds (or both ds and dd to do together since it is designed to be done with groups), is within what he might be able to figure out at his level, and could help with a very different approach into math for him, then he might like to start with this genuinely high school book.

[OneStepAtATime]

Correction and added info:

 

A book I meant above is IMP for Interactive Mathematics Program -- it says it is a high school program right on the cover. It is Discovery oriented, and I think in some ways may be more accessible than Beast Academy's grade 3 material is. Authors are Fendel, Resek, Alper and Fraser. Key Curriculum Press.

 

Example of an early problem from the year 1 book: the text gives a scenario where a farmer is taking her eggs to market and they all break.

 

To claim insurance, she needs to know how many eggs there were. She does not know for sure, but recalls that when packing them she found that when she tried groups of 2 there was 1 egg left over. When she tried groups of 3 there was also 1 left over. The same thing happened with groups of 4, 5 and 6 eggs. But when in groups of 7 there were none left over.

 

"What can the farmer figure out from this information about how many eggs she had?

 

Is there more than one possibility?"

 

And then for the next "homework" it says some students think 49 would be the correct answer, and asks the student to explain why it's not.

 

If this is the sort of thing that might appeal to your ds (or both ds and dd to do together since it is designed to be done with groups), is within what he might be able to figure out at his level, and could help with a very different approach into math for him, then he might like to start with this genuinely high school book.

Sounds very cool!  Started DS on Dragon Box yesterday and both on Challenge Math today.  Enjoying both so far and DD will start Dragon Box tomorrow....still looking through everything else and deciding what else we might add now and what might work great a little further down the road.  There are so many great suggestions on here.  

 

The Interactive Mathematics Program might really boost DS's self-confidence.  He just had a rather unfortunate set of rejections from some boys in our neighborhood.  I get the feeling the parents don't approve of homeschooling and the boys really only want to play video games anyway, instead of talking about history and science, and it affects how the kids treat DS.  It really had him pretty down.  Thanks so much for the suggestion.

[wapiti]

It can't hurt to pick up a used copy of IMP as they're probably cheap :).  While your purpose here is entirely different so perhaps you could make use of it, I feel the need for a public service announcement.  I would caution more generally against its choice for an ordinary student for a real high school math course.  It is a fuzzy program (among the fuzziest of the fuzzy, at the heart of the "Math Wars") and has an especially poor reputation for quality of instruction (it was revised due to criticism though I'm not sure whether the revisions were substantial).  The discovery is not likely to be in the same vein as an AoPS/Beast Socratic, guided discovery.  (I ended up researching it a long time ago and came across a real doozy of a quote about it - I giggle just thinking about it due to a long backstory that I can't post.  I'd be happy to post the quote though if anyone really wants to see it, assuming I can still find it.)

 

I agree with Kai that once he's ready for actual algebra, Jacobs would be on my list of possibilities.

[Pen]

Agreed: 

[interactive] Mathematics Program is an actual 9th Grade textbook he might be able to tackle. ... It is not considered a very rigorous program for the high school level (compared to say AoPS), but might provide a truly high school level text that he could start work on now. It is full of math as puzzles type problems. And maybe he'd be willing to work on what he needs to learn to be able to do the more interesting/fun puzzles.

 

...

 

I had gotten it for math puzzles at 5th-6th grade level. 

 

If Zacarro and so on are working well now, and he has dropped his idea of "high school" level math, I'd stick with what you are doing!

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks again for all the support, everyone.  Oh, and I found Interactive Mathematics Program first level for less than a dollar so I think it might be fun to have around for when DS needs a boost to his spirits.  Pulling out a more advanced text and solving a few puzzles might really help.  We wouldn't be using it as a spine for high school math.  I appreciate wapiti's concern and also the reason for Pen suggesting it in the first place.  Thanks for the feedback, ladies.

 

By the way, when people say Dolciani, which book do they mean?  Apparently there are lots, and many different versions of the same one, too.  And what is the difference between Lial and Dolciani and why is Lial frequently linked with Dolciani in reviews? Do they approach math from a similar track? I just noticed that these get a lot of posts and seem sort of linked in a way....Just curious.  And how do those compare to Jacob's Algebra?

 

Homeschool Buyer's Co-op DID have Hands on Equations for a discount, by the way, so I went ahead and ordered it. Selling off a pile of old stuff to try to balance out the costs since I've gone a little nuts with educational stuff in the past couple of weeks, but the kids seem happier.

 

Hope everyone is doing well.  Best wishes!

[wapiti]

Dolciani's Prealgebra, an Accelerated Course (published somewhere between 1985 and 1992, IIRC; I have the 1987/88 reprint).  http://www.amazon.com/Pre-Algebra-An-Accelerated-Course-Dolciani/dp/039543050X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1390456042&sr=8-2&keywords=dolciani+prealgebra

 

Jacobs Elementary Algebra http://books.google.com/books?id=PEBMNI51vMEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=9780716710479&hl=en&ei=fk4cTvDvHKSCsALMxMmiCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

It may depend on the student/situation, but personally I would feel more comfortable doing prealgebra before Jacobs.  Jacobs starts off gently but IMO it's better to have prealgebra skills very solid first.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Dolciani's Prealgebra, an Accelerated Course (published somewhere between 1985 and 1992, IIRC; I have the 1987/88 reprint).  http://www.amazon.com/Pre-Algebra-An-Accelerated-Course-Dolciani/dp/039543050X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1390456042&sr=8-2&keywords=dolciani+prealgebra

 

Jacobs Elementary Algebra http://books.google.com/books?id=PEBMNI51vMEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=9780716710479&hl=en&ei=fk4cTvDvHKSCsALMxMmiCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

It may depend on the student/situation, but personally I would feel more comfortable doing prealgebra before Jacobs.  Jacobs starts off gently but IMO it's better to have prealgebra skills very solid first.

Thanks for the feedback and the links!  

[FairProspects]

 

- When it comes to fractions/decimals/percents/ratios, focus on the fact that these are all just different ways of representing the same concepts (wholes vs parts).  MM is particularly good for showing this, and I would not be shy about pulling out pages from the upper MM levels to work on this (look for the ratio lessons with the little pictures of groups of things).  If understanding these concepts turns out to be a strength, run with it - it's huge.

 

What does running with this strength look like? These are a strength for ds but I'm not sure I know what to do with it. How can I turn that into something that will help?

[Pen]

Thanks again for all the support, everyone.  Oh, and I found Interactive Mathematics Program first level for less than a dollar so I think it might be fun to have around for when DS needs a boost to his spirits.  Pulling out a more advanced text and solving a few puzzles might really help.  

 

If you do that, consider the very early problem about 3 kids playing cards and having to match the name to grade to seating position--really a logic puzzle, not math, but reasonably accessible.

 

And then the one about the eggs that I related could be a good way--with a lot of puzzling and trying things out, perhaps, to get at patterns, multiples, remainders, divisibility rules and so on which could make things at his stage of multiplying and dividing more interesting than just memorize tables type programs do. At a higher level one could use it for algebra and functions probably. But it is reasonably accessible through trial and error at a grade 4 stage, and then the more you look at it the more interesting patterns start to emerge.

 

I did not get an answer book, partly because they were a lot more expensive, and partly because it eliminates the temptation to just go look at the answer.

 

It is meant to be a problem of the week, and do plan to allow a full week (not every moment of course, and other things can be done in math while it percolates in the mind) but to explore it.  We actually took longer than a week with it, first getting an answer and the answer to why 49 is incorrect (the easiest part to do and possibly a place to start) and then longer to figure out whether or not there would be more possible answers, and finally to establish if so, how many and what the pattern would be. My son did not do the writing it called for, and I did a lot of the suggestions of ways to go about it.

 

That is, if he (or all of you) get it sooner, fine, but it is a good one to show that it is meant even for high school students to take a while.

 

I found that problem a lot of fun!

 

My son preferred the chess piece arrangement puzzles, since he likes chess, and likes the physicality of the chess problems.

 

 

 

And I plan to return to it again, probably in future.

 

 

Good luck and enjoy all your new materials!

[OneStepAtATime]

Well, everyone, I must express my deepest gratitude to all who have posted and helped out.  It saved me and my poor ds today.  We were working on Barton and he could not remember how to spell the word "were".  The system Barton uses for site words usually works quite well for both kids, but DS is behind his sister on learning these words.  "Were" is one that we had studied quite a bit, and he had finally gotten down, but we had not reviewed that particular word systematically since before Christmas (my fault).  He was so devastated that he could not remember that word, he ran from the table, curled up in a ball under a blanket and kept saying he was stupid.  He told me he was going to quit school altogether, that he was worthless and incapable.  He hasn't had that bad a meltdown since we had to pull him out of 2nd grade brick and mortar.  We both ended up in tears as I tried to help him see how bright he really is.  I was devastated that he feels so bad inside.

 

Finally, he was able to calm down and we talked.  We are putting Barton aside until after his vision therapy and he is going to go back and work more with LiPS for the blending issues he still has.  In the meantime, we will work with history and science and math, as well as typing and cursive because he likes those things and they help boost his confidence.  We played around with a science experiment we had not quite finished that morning and he tried a few things that he was interested in.  That made him feel a little better.  Then, he  pulled out the Challenge Math book and started working on the pages in there.  He did well and felt better.  He then pulled out the Dragon Box algebra game and started playing.  He ran into a puzzle he was having trouble solving and we stayed with it working together until he figured it out.  He felt even better.  He started looking up videos on history (Crash Course History videos) and alternating between that and some more challenging math problems and by the time we headed to karate, he felt a whole lot better.  Thanks so much for all the great suggestions on here.  As more resources come in, he and I will have more to pull from, but I wouldn't have known about using hardly any of these for our situation if it weren't for all of you.  Thanks.  Words just aren't enough to express my gratitude.

[Soror]

Sounds like a great day, way to recover! It is so hard when they are hard on themselves :(

 

and I'm patiently waiting w/ FP here to hear more from wapiti..... :) Ds needs more decimal work here as well, so I'm checking out all the ideas I can!

[PeterPan]

Sounds like a great day, way to recover! It is so hard when they are hard on themselves :(

 

and I'm patiently waiting w/ FP here to hear more from wapiti..... :) Ds needs more decimal work here as well, so I'm checking out all the ideas I can!

What's FP?

 

On the decimals, as I recall we did the turn the paper thing to get columns.  Aside from the issue that it's so many stinkin' steps (working memory drag), it's also just a writing nightmare. 

 

Another thing we did with math at one point was write the steps out, so she wouldn't have to remember them or would have an easier way to talk about them (pointing, instead of recalling the word).  With my ds, who's so kinesthetic, I could see colored tokens with symbols for each step and moving them as you do it.  Or doing the whole thing with the RS/montessori place value cards.  

[OneStepAtATime]

What's FP?

 

On the decimals, as I recall we did the turn the paper thing to get columns.  Aside from the issue that it's so many stinkin' steps (working memory drag), it's also just a writing nightmare. 

 

Another thing we did with math at one point was write the steps out, so she wouldn't have to remember them or would have an easier way to talk about them (pointing, instead of recalling the word).  With my ds, who's so kinesthetic, I could see colored tokens with symbols for each step and moving them as you do it.  Or doing the whole thing with the RS/montessori place value cards.  

I believe FP is Fair Prospects.  She had asked a question of wapiti and I think they are both hoping wapiti will check back in here and respond...

[LaughingCat]

DD the older has been struggling with decimals too.  Fractions a tiny bit but nothing like decimals - where she cannot seem to get the '.' in the right place.  I got a couple of Ronit Bird books on ILL,  and reading those makes me feel like it may be a underlying issue with place value (although she mostly does not struggle with keeping large non-decimal numbers in the right place in +-*/ problems) but the sheer number of games feels overwhelming.    And OTH in some ways it feels just like the reading issues that remain no matter what we've done - adding/deleting letters within a word and losing her place.

 

As an aside, the description of dyscalcia Ronit Bird gives fits DD to a T (working memory issues etc)- but she has not really struggled with math concepts at all - until decimals the only struggle has been math facts speed and word problems.

[Soror]

What's FP?

 

On the decimals, as I recall we did the turn the paper thing to get columns.  Aside from the issue that it's so many stinkin' steps (working memory drag), it's also just a writing nightmare. 

 

Another thing we did with math at one point was write the steps out, so she wouldn't have to remember them or would have an easier way to talk about them (pointing, instead of recalling the word).  With my ds, who's so kinesthetic, I could see colored tokens with symbols for each step and moving them as you do it.  Or doing the whole thing with the RS/montessori place value cards.  

Yes, FP is Fair Prospects. We have the basics of decimals down but we are ready to get into more but I need a guide on how to teach it- waiting on BA here might be awhile!

[OneStepAtATime]

DD the older has been struggling with decimals too.  Fractions a tiny bit but nothing like decimals - where she cannot seem to get the '.' in the right place.  I got a couple of Ronit Bird books on ILL,  and reading those makes me feel like it may be a underlying issue with place value (although she mostly does not struggle with keeping large non-decimal numbers in the right place in +-*/ problems) but the sheer number of games feels overwhelming.    And OTH in some ways it feels just like the reading issues that remain no matter what we've done - adding/deleting letters within a word and losing her place.

 

As an aside, the description of dyscalcia Ronit Bird gives fits DD to a T (working memory issues etc)- but she has not really struggled with math concepts at all - until decimals the only struggle has been math facts speed and word problems.

DD struggles with computation but we never really got into higher level math thinking much.  She just stumbled through in elementary (awful teacher for 3 years coupled with possible dyscalculia).  I still kept avoiding more advanced math when we first started homeschooling because I was under the erroneous conclusion that if she couldn't do computation she couldn't do higher level math.  After realizing that DH is not good at computation but is terrific at higher level math, and reading more about math issues, I realize that was a mistake.  Now I think she probably IS getting the concepts as long as her working memory isn't overloaded and she doesn't have to bog down on computation, but we are just really systematically starting down this road.

 

I really think that as research delves into math issues more, dyscalculia will become an outdated term and math issues will be broken down into more specifics (those who can process computation quickly and efficiently but cannot understand concepts; those who quite clearly see concepts but cannot do computation quickly and efficiently; those who cannot do either with any efficiency, etc.).

[wapiti]

What does running with this strength look like? These are a strength for ds but I'm not sure I know what to do with it. How can I turn that into something that will help?

 

This is what happens when I post on insufficient sleep as has been the case all this week, for no good reason.  I'm not entirely sure what I mean :tongue_smilie:.  (more coffee please!)

 

Perhaps what I mean is that, at the most basic level, fractions/ratios/decimals/percents all involve the same visual-spatial idea of a relationship comparing parts and wholes (or parts vs other parts vs the whole).  The notation among them is different, and the procedures/sequences used may seem different, but the concepts are the same.  So, for a kid who gets fractions on an intuitive, non-verbal, visual-spatial level, the rest will hopefully be not so difficult to understand, once the child sees that the relationships are the concept.  Understanding relationships is the strength to use here.

 

There are some pages in MM that set this up nicely, explicitly showing that fractions/ratios/decimals/percents are all just different ways to show the same relationship and asking the student, given one written relationship, to write the translation to the other forms.

 

So, for example, let's say there's a disconnect with decimals (or whatever).  I'd go back and show the same quantity as a fraction.  Then do the arithmetic with fractions.  Sometimes remembering the procedures will take practice and occasional review, but hopefully the gist will be there if the student can remember that, if he runs into difficulty, he can simply turn the decimals into fractions and work with the same quantities that way and still arrive at the correct answer. 

 

 

Eta (ok edit #1 LOL), a great understanding of the part/whole relationship of division depicted by the fraction will come in handy in manipulating fractional expressions in algebra 1.  Algebra can be so irritatingly sequential, but understanding the concepts is half the battle, I think.  Unfortunately this does NOT mean that ds enjoys large, complicated AoPS equations with fractions.  I can hear RR saying "wipe out the denominators!!" and indeed using that tool can go a long way...

[Pen]

Well, everyone, I must express my deepest gratitude to all who have posted and helped out.  It saved me and my poor ds today.  We were working on Barton and he could not remember how to spell the word "were".  The system Barton uses for site words usually works quite well for both kids, but DS is behind his sister on learning these words.  "Were" is one that we had studied quite a bit, and he had finally gotten down, but we had not reviewed that particular word systematically since before Christmas (my fault).  He was so devastated that he could not remember that word, he ran from the table, curled up in a ball under a blanket and kept saying he was stupid.  He told me he was going to quit school altogether, that he was worthless and incapable.  He hasn't had that bad a meltdown since we had to pull him out of 2nd grade brick and mortar.  We both ended up in tears as I tried to help him see how bright he really is.  I was devastated that he feels so bad inside.

...

 

 

For my son, fwiw, at almost 12 he has started to be able to spell fairly well (though probably still way below "average"), seemingly as if his brain is now ready for it, and also some other things like typing practice and foreign language study helped--and especially having now read a lot so that the look of words is more known from reading. I think earlier attempts at spelling were counterproductive. For him fluent and copious reading needed to come first. Also, with dyslexia he seemed to sometimes be able to spell "hard" words like archaeologist before he could spell a short sight word like "were" and words like that often stay confusing longer--   were, sure, her, sir, fur, where, whir   ...   trying to remember which is which, when there is not much sense to it can be really confusing. The more he has read and seen them a lot over and over the better it seems to get.

 

 

There's a learning model called Bloom's Taxonomy which has "remember" at the beginning, lowest, level of a pyramid, supposedly easiest, and then create at the top with other things in between. I think some of our kids have that backwards and are ready to be creative, or to have understanding or analysis levels, long before they can "remember" things like spelling. They may even have some of the upper levels and perhaps never be good at the lower, it would seem from stories of adults with dyslexia who have gone on to do wonderful things despite the dyslexia.

[OneStepAtATime]

For my son, fwiw, at almost 12 he has started to be able to spell fairly well (though probably still way below "average"), seemingly as if his brain is now ready for it, and also some other things like typing practice and foreign language study helped--and especially having now read a lot so that the look of words is more known from reading. I think earlier attempts at spelling were counterproductive. For him fluent and copious reading needed to come first. Also, with dyslexia he seemed to sometimes be able to spell "hard" words like archaeologist before he could spell a short sight word like "were" and words like that often stay confusing longer--   were, sure, her, sir, fur, where, whir   ...   trying to remember which is which, when there is not much sense to it can be really confusing. The more he has read and seen them a lot over and over the better it seems to get.

 

 

There's a learning model called Bloom's Taxonomy which has "remember" at the beginning, lowest, level of a pyramid, supposedly easiest, and then create at the top with other things in between. I think some of our kids have that backwards and are ready to be creative, or to have understanding or analysis levels, long before they can "remember" things like spelling. They may even have some of the upper levels and perhaps never be good at the lower, it would seem from stories of adults with dyslexia who have gone on to do wonderful things despite the dyslexia.

It is so strange to move through Barton with both kids, doing the same lessons, but seeing such vastly different processes going on.  DD struggles to grasp what the rules mean and apply them correctly.  Once she gets it, she breezes through the rest of the lesson without an issue.  She was a terrible speller in school and retained virtually nothing.  With Barton, the spelling has improved dramatically.  

 

On the flip side, DS grasps the rule immediately and can apply it verbally usually right off the bat, over and over, in several different contexts.  Sometimes, he still has pronunciation issues with "C" being a soft or hard sound, even though he KNOWS when the rule applies.  His brain just trips him up a bit when he reads that letter out loud quickly sometimes.  But when he is reading or writing, he still frequently trips up on blended sounds, e and i short vowel sounds, and while he can read site words we have reviewed frequently, he forgets how to spell some of them.  He always got 100's on spelling tests in school (unlike poor DD), but that was because he had great auditory memory and I was reading the lists with him quite a bit.  Retention wasn't good long-term, but we always thought he was great at spelling because he got such great grades on those tests.  He actually really struggles with spelling far more than his sister does now.   Barton is working brilliantly for her.  Not as effective for DS.  His other areas of weakness appear to be really tripping him up (eyes not tracking together, auditory processing issues, dysgraphia and who knows what else).

 

 

It is really hard on DS since he was the one always getting great grades in school without nearly as much effort needed (until mid-2nd grade) and DD was the one who fought for every B and every A.  

 

I agree that with these kids, the brain seems to process so differently that many times they DO need to start with the higher level concepts first, then the lower level.  Since we teach it completely the opposite in a normal educational setting, so many just assume they are incapable and not very bright because the material is emphasizing all the weak areas and areas that are not developmentally ready yet, instead of their areas of strength and areas they ARE developmentally ready.  They ARE very bright.  They just process things differently....

[OneStepAtATime]

This is what happens when I post on insufficient sleep as has been the case all this week, for no good reason.  I'm not entirely sure what I mean :tongue_smilie:.  (more coffee please!)  I seem to be having to edit posts more this week than ever before, constantly failing to find the right words even the tenth time around.  Now pardon me while I try again to turn on that translator from the right brain to the left, LOL.

 

Perhaps what I mean is that, at the most basic level, fractions/ratios/decimals/percents all involve the same visual-spatial idea of a relationship comparing parts and wholes (or parts vs other parts vs the whole).  The notation among them is different, and the procedures/sequences used may seem different, but the concepts are the same.  So, for a kid who gets fractions on an intuitive, non-verbal, visual-spatial level, the rest will hopefully be not so difficult to understand, once the child sees that the relationships are the concept.  Understanding relationships is the strength to use here.

 

There are some pages in MM that set this up nicely, explicitly showing that fractions/ratios/decimals/percents are all just different ways to show the same relationship and asking the student, given one written relationship, to write the translation to the other forms.

 

So, for example, let's say there's a disconnect with decimals (or whatever).  I'd go back and show the same quantity as a fraction.  Then do the arithmetic with fractions.  Sometimes remembering the procedures will take practice and occasional review, but hopefully the gist will be there if the student can remember that, if he runs into difficulty, he can simply turn the decimals into fractions and work with the same quantities that way and still arrive at the correct answer.  (Irritatingly, one of my boys likes to convert the fractions into decimals so he can use the ordinary multiplication algorithm, but he runs into trouble when he tries to round them.  This kid would prefer to stay procedure-oriented if I'd let him, and getting him to use his strengths is a challenge.  He'd prefer to turn off the concept brain and turn on the plug and chug instead).

 

His brother, my other ds10, does an enormous amount of work in his head (the writing really does get in the way).  Unfortunately, as I was writing on another thread the other day, the resistance to writing makes teaching certain procedures difficult.  Rather than set up a proportion on paper, as I would, he'd simply solve the problem by following the same steps (multiplying, dividing, etc.) that one would follow to solve the proportion, but without actually writing it down as a proportion or even seeing it in his head.  He gets the concept so completely and intuitively that he doesn't even realize that what he does is exactly the same as the procedures followed in cross-multiplying, and at some point I'm worried that not setting it up as such will slow him down or otherwise cause trouble, like he doesn't have the procedure tool in his toolbox (especially since a proportion is such a nice visual, in my mind).  However, he has the concept, even if he doesn't have the procedure.  So, he'll look at a word problem in AoPS, for example, and he might do some multiplication or long division on scratch paper, or not, and after several minutes he blurts out an answer.  Sometimes I have to make him go back to look at the problem itself to make sure he doesn't need to take that and do something more before turning it into a final answer, though most of the time he'd be correct.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment - I'll post again if I can think of anything else.  (Lately I tend to have little bits dribble out of my brain when I least expect it...)

 

Eta (ok edit #1 LOL), a great understanding of the part/whole relationship of division depicted by the fraction will come in handy in manipulating fractional expressions in algebra 1.  Algebra can be so irritatingly sequential, but understanding the concepts is half the battle, I think.  Unfortunately this does NOT mean that ds enjoys large, complicated AoPS equations with fractions.  I can hear RR saying "wipe out the denominators!!" and indeed using that tool can go a long way...

Thanks wapiti!  Great clarification!  Going to go chug a cup of coffee now before I re-read it try to process the details... :)

[Pen]

It is so strange to move through Barton with both kids, doing the same lessons, but seeing such vastly different processes going on.  DD struggles to grasp what the rules mean and apply them correctly.  Once she gets it, she breezes through the rest of the lesson without an issue.  She was a terrible speller in school and retained virtually nothing.  With Barton, the spelling has improved dramatically.  

 

On the flip side, DS grasps the rule immediately and can apply it verbally usually right off the bat, over and over, in several different contexts.  Sometimes, he still has pronunciation issues with "C" being a soft or hard sound, even though he KNOWS when the rule applies.  His brain just trips him up a bit when he reads that letter out loud quickly sometimes.  But when he is reading or writing, he still frequently trips up on blended sounds, e and i short vowel sounds, and while he can read site words we have reviewed frequently, he forgets how to spell some of them.  He always got 100's on spelling tests in school (unlike poor DD), but that was because he had great auditory memory and I was reading the lists with him quite a bit.  Retention wasn't good long-term, but we always thought he was great at spelling because he got such great grades on those tests.  He actually really struggles with spelling far more than his sister does now.   Barton is working brilliantly for her.  Not as effective for DS.  His other areas of weakness appear to be really tripping him up (eyes not tracking together, auditory processing issues, dysgraphia and who knows what else).

 

 

It is really hard on DS since he was the one always getting great grades in school without nearly as much effort needed (until mid-2nd grade) and DD was the one who fought for every B and every A.  

 

I agree that with these kids, the brain seems to process so differently that many times they DO need to start with the higher level concepts first, then the lower level.  Since we teach it completely the opposite in a normal educational setting, so many just assume they are incapable and not very bright because the material is emphasizing all the weak areas and areas that are not developmentally ready yet, instead of their areas of strength and areas they ARE developmentally ready.  They ARE very bright.  They just process things differently....

 

It could be that Barton is a better fit for your dd than your ds. Also she may be reaching a brain maturity stage where spelling is less difficult for her than it used to be.

 

We used www.highnoon.com with my son because it was first so highly recommended to me by someone I trusted, and also because it seemed to fit him, including that he needed to learn reading as an automatic/fluency system through very controlled progressive incremental learning, but not as a "rules" based system. He also got started on typing, first talkingfingers and later Typing Instructor which helped both typing and also reading or spelling respectively. My son also has been helped by an electronic dictionary which has built in spelling quiz sections. But mostly he has been helped by just not putting a heavy emphasis on spelling.

[OneStepAtATime]

I may look at HIghnoon again.  I really like what you have posted about this system.  

 

The thing that throws me is that DS gets the rules immediately.  He understands completely what I am teaching him.  Far faster and more completely than DD.  When we play games with the Barton stuff, he does GREAT.  Retention is really good, too.  And when he responds verbally, he usually does very well with spelling and reading, with the exception of sometimes tripping up on repeating blended sounds correctly or correctly decoding short e and i vowel sounds.  He glitches on "c" as well, verbally.  He knows when to say a soft c and a hard c, but sometimes he has to stop reading altogether and you can see him forcing himself to think through making his mouth say it correctly, like some part of his brain is overriding what he knows is correct.  When he has to write out words following whatever rule we are learning, he usually does quite well actually, as long as it isn't a site word.  Site words are driving him nuts. DD has mastered three lists and is starting on the fourth.  DS is still mastering list two.  

 

I think his issue with reading paragraph passages has a lot to do with his vision.  He tends to lose his place, even with a guide, and he jumps all over the page when he is tired.  And the blended sounds, and out loud reading of the letter "c" and the mis-decoding of short e and i may be something we can correct with LiPS.  Hoping so, anyway.  We probably need an eval through an NP to really determine what all the issues are.  Just haven't found anyone worthwhile in our area and the nearest one outside our area is over 4 hours away....

 

But I do think that brain maturation is probably playing a part, too.  DD seems to be grasping things so much faster now than she did a year ago.  Maybe DS just needs more time...

 

And I realize that we are drifting a bit off topic here, so to get back to math for a minute so I won't seem completely scatter brained, thanks again to everyone who recommended Challenge Math.  DS is really enjoying it.  It is the first thing he grabbed this morning, even before breakfast.  DD is moving much slower through it, but I think it is her working memory that is tripping her up.  I am trying to have her do the pages while writing things down on a dry erase board.  DS just usually does it all in his head and tells me the answers verbally.  They both find it very interesting so far.

[Pen]

... 

 

The thing that throws me is that DS gets the rules immediately.  He understands completely what I am teaching him.  Far faster and more completely than DD.  When we play games with the Barton stuff, he does GREAT.  Retention is really good, too.  And when he responds verbally, he usually does very well with spelling and reading, with the exception of sometimes tripping up on repeating blended sounds correctly or correctly decoding short e and i vowel sounds.  He glitches on "c" as well, verbally.  He knows when to say a soft c and a hard c, but sometimes he has to stop reading altogether and you can see him forcing himself to think through making his mouth say it correctly, like some part of his brain is overriding what he knows is correct.  When he has to write out words following whatever rule we are learning, he usually does quite well actually, as long as it isn't a site word.  Site words are driving him nuts. DD has mastered three lists and is starting on the fourth.  DS is still mastering list two.  

 

I think his issue with reading paragraph passages has a lot to do with his vision.  He tends to lose his place, even with a guide, and he jumps all over the page when he is tired.  And the blended sounds, and out loud reading of the letter "c" and the mis-decoding of short e and i may be something we can correct with LiPS.  Hoping so, anyway.  We probably need an eval through an NP to really determine what all the issues are.  Just haven't found anyone worthwhile in our area and the nearest one outside our area is over 4 hours away....

 

...

 

sorry about this being off topic, but at least it is your own thread getting derailed...

 

Your ds may be getting too many different things before a prior one is solid. That is before he has fluency and automaticity  in short e sound readings, he has to distinguish short i's. And on top of that also soft and hard c's, and blends. That would be my own first guess. I know one wants to get to the finish and be reading, it may be that slow and steady and complete will win the race  in the long run. 

 

By and large at least at first that was the case for my ds--each step, and a step was something like short e CVC words, not all CVC words,  had to be fluent and automatic before tackling the next, which might have been short a CVC words.   |e| and |i| were kept separated because many children get them confused, and also |a| and |o| are easily confused. We did no blends or CVCe's at all until CVC pattern was solid, and each then got its own chance to get solid before adding another and so on.

 

Except that at some point (about a year into the slow and steady and intense remediation) there was enough in point that he then jumped into reading things he wanted to read (Rick Riordan), and I had to find ways of working with that.

 

Keeping a finger going along to keep ones place can help, but also doing it in many short sessions distributed in time and when child is not overly tired. Vision therapy is also very tiring. And when we were remediating reading, we did that and math, and any other subject was via DVD, audio, etc. for nearly a year.

 

I wanted to try to tie this back to the math subject, and the need to get basics in place as with Ronit Bird ideas, before moving on, but that seems like the opposite of High school materials for 4th grader, so I think I'll just let it be an off topic reply.

[FairProspects]

This is what happens when I post on insufficient sleep as has been the case all this week, for no good reason.  I'm not entirely sure what I mean :tongue_smilie:.  (more coffee please!)  I seem to be having to edit posts more this week than ever before, constantly failing to find the right words even the tenth time around.  Now pardon me while I try again to turn on that translator from the right brain to the left, LOL.

 

Perhaps what I mean is that, at the most basic level, fractions/ratios/decimals/percents all involve the same visual-spatial idea of a relationship comparing parts and wholes (or parts vs other parts vs the whole).  The notation among them is different, and the procedures/sequences used may seem different, but the concepts are the same.  So, for a kid who gets fractions on an intuitive, non-verbal, visual-spatial level, the rest will hopefully be not so difficult to understand, once the child sees that the relationships are the concept.  Understanding relationships is the strength to use here.

 

There are some pages in MM that set this up nicely, explicitly showing that fractions/ratios/decimals/percents are all just different ways to show the same relationship and asking the student, given one written relationship, to write the translation to the other forms.

 

So, for example, let's say there's a disconnect with decimals (or whatever).  I'd go back and show the same quantity as a fraction.  Then do the arithmetic with fractions.  Sometimes remembering the procedures will take practice and occasional review, but hopefully the gist will be there if the student can remember that, if he runs into difficulty, he can simply turn the decimals into fractions and work with the same quantities that way and still arrive at the correct answer.  (Irritatingly, one of my boys likes to convert the fractions into decimals so he can use the ordinary multiplication algorithm, but he runs into trouble when he tries to round them.  This kid would prefer to stay procedure-oriented if I'd let him, and getting him to use his strengths is a challenge.  He'd prefer to turn off the concept brain and turn on the plug and chug instead).

 

His brother, my other ds10, does an enormous amount of work in his head (the writing really does get in the way).  Unfortunately, as I was writing on another thread the other day, the resistance to writing makes teaching certain procedures difficult.  Rather than set up a proportion on paper, as I would, he'd simply solve the problem by following the same steps (multiplying, dividing, etc.) that one would follow to solve the proportion, but without actually writing it down as a proportion or even seeing it in his head.  He gets the concept so completely and intuitively that he doesn't even realize that what he does is exactly the same as the procedures followed in cross-multiplying, and at some point I'm worried that not setting it up as such will slow him down or otherwise cause trouble, like he doesn't have the procedure tool in his toolbox (especially since a proportion is such a nice visual, in my mind).  However, he has the concept, even if he doesn't have the procedure.  So, he'll look at a word problem in AoPS, for example, and he might do some multiplication or long division on scratch paper, or not, and after several minutes he blurts out an answer.  Sometimes I have to make him go back to look at the problem itself to make sure he doesn't need to take that and do something more before turning it into a final answer, though most of the time he'd be correct.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment - I'll post again if I can think of anything else.  (Lately I tend to have little bits dribble out of my brain when I least expect it...)

 

Eta (ok edit #1 LOL), a great understanding of the part/whole relationship of division depicted by the fraction will come in handy in manipulating fractional expressions in algebra 1.  Algebra can be so irritatingly sequential, but understanding the concepts is half the battle, I think.  Unfortunately this does NOT mean that ds enjoys large, complicated AoPS equations with fractions.  I can hear RR saying "wipe out the denominators!!" and indeed using that tool can go a long way...

 

See posts like this make me feel like I am screwing up ds and should just jump him to pre-algebra already. He has had ratios, fractions, and decimal relationships since age 7 but he messes up the computations constantly. I'm not even sure what I would teach him about these relationships because he already understands them better than I do but he doesn't have the procedures down. Interesting. We are about to finish up our current math anyway, I need to think more about it.

[OneStepAtATime]

sorry about this being off topic, but at least it is your own thread getting derailed...

 

Actually, it doesn't bother me at all.  I just started thinking someone who jumped to the bottom of the thread might get confused and think "Wait, I thought this thread was regarding math?", so I figured I'd mention math so I wouldn't look like I was a nut case... :laugh: 

 

Your ds may be getting too many different things before a prior one is solid. That is before he has fluency and automaticity  in short e sound readings, he has to distinguish short i's. And on top of that also soft and hard c's, and blends. That would be my own first guess. I know one wants to get to the finish and be reading, it may be that slow and steady and complete will win the race  in the long run. 

 

By and large at least at first that was the case for my ds--each step, and a step was something like short e CVC words, not all CVC words,  had to be fluent and automatic before tackling the next, which might have been short a CVC words.   |e| and |i| were kept separated because many children get them confused, and also |a| and |o| are easily confused. We did no blends or CVCe's at all until CVC pattern was solid, and each then got its own chance to get solid before adding another and so on.

 

I agree, slow and steady is the best, or at least it has been with my kids.  We are going really slow.  We take at least a week on each lesson, sometimes quite a bit longer.  But DS has had some issues with discerning blended sounds when he speaks and when he writes since...well, always.  He spoke full complex sentences at 18 months and is incredibly articulate, so we didn't pay much attention to the few odd glitches he had.  Now that we are doing Barton, it really frustrates him because he KNOWS what it is supposed to be, but when he speaks, he doesn't always pronounce it correctly and when he writes a blended sound he doesn't always realize he skipped a letter.  If he proofreads, he usually catches it, though.  He mostly knows really well how to spell the words that are rule based, but he just has weird glitches.  I tried going even slower, but that doesn't seem to help.  Also, he just gets really, really bored and frustrated staying on the same lesson forever because he gets the lesson, he understands what it is teaching, but some weird glitch makes it a real struggle for him to override whatever that glitch is and read, speak and write everything smoothly.  

 

LiPS addressed a lot of the issues he had had really well.  The difference was significant from before LiPS to after LiPS.  I talked to Mom today and she admits she quit the program before they had gone very far into blended sounds and she did not emphasize  the "e" 'I" confusion.  She did not see any issues with hard and soft c, and I don't either unless he is having to switch between the sounds when reading several words in a row.  I am hoping that if Mom does more with LiPS we can help him with the glitches.

 

Except that at some point (about a year into the slow and steady and intense remediation) there was enough in point that he then jumped into reading things he wanted to read (Rick Riordan), and I had to find ways of working with that.

 

Keeping a finger going along to keep ones place can help, but also doing it in many short sessions distributed in time and when child is not overly tired. Vision therapy is also very tiring. And when we were remediating reading, we did that and math, and any other subject was via DVD, audio, etc. for nearly a year.

 

I talked it over with DS and explained that we really probably need to step away from Barton until he has worked with LiPS longer and has finished VT.  He is disappointed, but I think we have reached a level in that program where the glitches are tripping him up too much.

 

I wanted to try to tie this back to the math subject, and the need to get basics in place as with Ronit Bird ideas, before moving on, but that seems like the opposite of High school materials for 4th grader, so I think I'll just let it be an off topic reply.

 

Chuckle.  Thanks for trying.   :)

 

Actually, DS is still doing basic math and flying through it.  It really has helped to start them both over with subitization skills.  But he doesn't have the extreme math issues that DD has and he is bored.  He just really loves THINKING about math, not just computation stuff.  The thinking stuff has reinvigorated his enjoyment of math (and his beaten up ego).  He just got so used to functioning above his classmates in pretty much every subject from 4k through 1st, and the beginning of 2nd, that having to go back when they are all moving forward was a serious blow.  Giving him some more advanced material to puzzle through has been so helpful for his enthusiasm AND his understanding of math.  But yes, solidifying basics, as much as humanly possible, is also important.

 

Thanks so much for the time you are taking to give all this feedback, Pen.  I really appreciate it.  I always enjoy and learn from your posts.  Best wishes.

 

[wapiti]

See posts like this make me feel like I am screwing up ds and should just jump him to pre-algebra already. He has had ratios, fractions, and decimal relationships since age 7 but he messes up the computations constantly. I'm not even sure what I would teach him about these relationships because he already understands them better than I do but he doesn't have the procedures down. Interesting. We are about to finish up our current math anyway, I need to think more about it.

 

It may be that my thinking above is of no use to you because my ds, while he may not care for procedures, hasn't had an actual problem with them other than resisting the writing.  Writing numbers too close together is the biggest problem he has, when he's willing to write.

 

Off the top of my head, I'd try to figure out a way to connect the concepts to the procedures.  Ds does it so automatically and intuitively that I've never needed to explain that part.  There must be a way to do it - can you give an example of a computation that he messes up?  What happens if he tries to work orally, in his head and/or with you scribing?

 

Without knowing more, I do think there may be situations where it might help to jump ahead, at least temporarily, if a more complex concept might provide context for the computations that comprise it.  I'm sure after I get the little kids to bed, I will come downstairs to find that this doesn't make any sense  :tongue_smilie:

[OneStepAtATime]

 

Without knowing more, I do think there may be situations where it might help to jump ahead, at least temporarily, if a more complex concept might provide context for the computations that comprise it.  I'm sure after I get the little kids to bed, I will come downstairs to find that this doesn't make any sense  :tongue_smilie:

I know this has helped my DD and my DS, if they can see the forest before trying to tackle the trees, including with History, Science, etc.  I am trying to find a better way to do both, since they seem to really need both; the bigger picture, as well as really carefully broken down explanations with a lot of review, then back to the bigger picture, then back to the broken down pieces.  They make leaps that I can't, sometimes, too and then I am the one having to go back and determine if we need to break things down further so they aren't missing something, or I just need to catch up to them and accept they think differently....

[wapiti]

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