When your child knows how/when to use the potty, but won't....

[HappyLady]

What do you do?  Wait until they're mentally ready or just make them do it?  My DS is almost 3.5 and I don't know if my wanting to force him to do it is coming from just being tired of diapers or if it's because I know he can. 

 

I know he knows what to do.  All summer long he was obsessed with using the potty anywhere and everywhere that we went, but refused to give up the diapers.  He stayed dry a lot so I figured potty training would be easy.  He even started by standing up as opposed to sitting down and even had a bowel movement on the potty without any issues.  For once, I thought something would be easy with him.  If you don't recall any of my previous posts about him, he's speech delayed both receptively and expressively and I suspect he has other issues that he seems to be outgrowing, but were never diagnosed.

 

He then regressed and wanted nothing to do with potty training so I backed off.  Everyone pretty much said not to push him so I didn't, but I'm just tired of the diapers.  Now he's to the point where if he pees in his diaper he asks me to change it.  And today he asked for a cookie and when I said no he asked if he could go on the potty.  I let him do it and he asked for the cookie again so I think he thought he could get the cookie if he did something he knew I'd want him to do.

 

He absolutely freaks if I try to put anything on him other than his usual disposable diapers (underwear, cloth diaper) and if I try to leave him naked or with no diaper he cries and cries and cries.  And cries.  And cries some more.  And begs for his diaper.  I kind of went through this with my DD, but she cried for a bit and then moved on.  She asked for her diaper a few times and when I refused that was pretty much it.  So I don't know what to do with him.  I worry with whatever issues he has that it might not be the best thing to force change on him (he's not good with change and it makes him have meltdowns), but I know he knows how and when to use the potty!

 

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Can this be a Daddy-Son bonding thing? Or you may just have to run out of diapers and not buy any new ones and deal with several days of naked-butt-crying.

[HappyLady]

Can this be a Daddy-Son bonding thing? Or you may just have to run out of diapers and not buy any new ones and deal with several days of naked-butt-crying.

 

 

My DH has tried several times to get our DH to "go" with him and he did it all summer long, but the only time he'll do it now for my DH is right before he goes in the tub at night (DH does his nighttime routine).  I've thought about just "running out" of diapers, but I'm not sure where the breaking point would be to just give up and give them back to him, because I know he'll cry relentlessly for them, or if I just keep going with not giving in.  With his issues, this is a tough one for me.  :(

[Prairie~Phlox]

When my son did this, about the same age, we took something they wanted to do, away.  In our case, it was spring time and his siblings could go outside, but he couldn't.  It took a week and he finally told me he had to go and did and then never had an accident after that.  If it were the winter, I would take the computer or tv away or something that he REALLY enjoys doing.  Let everyone else do it but him.

[LinRTX]

When my son did this, about the same age, we took something they wanted to do, away.  In our case, it was spring time and his siblings could go outside, but he couldn't.  It took a week and he finally told me he had to go and did and then never had an accident after that.  If it were the winter, I would take the computer or tv away or something that he REALLY enjoys doing.  Let everyone else do it but him.

 

This is how I did it with my oldest daughter. She wanted to plat at the next door neighbor's like her brother. I just told her if she could not use the potty (no diaper) then she was too young to play at a neighbor's. It wasn't long before she was trained.

 

Linda

[LostSurprise]

I think only you can decide which bothers you more...the diapers or the crying he'll do when you take away the diapers. 

 

I personally would go to the store and pick out some awesome underwear together and really hype it up, and then give yourself X amount of time (1 week for instance) and see what happens. At 3.5 he can do it. It's up to you to figure out whether you want to wait this out or push through the tantrums and see if everything comes out okay on the other side. It may even be worth a call to his pediatrician. If he's seriously distressed for a week of no diapers there may be more other problems bundled with his speech delays. If he sees a neurologist or therapist they may be able to guide you a bit in the decision, or at least help you feel freer to give it a try.

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

No idea, since my son will be 5 in three weeks and still not toilet trained.

 

:grouphug:

[PeterPan]

What do you do?  Wait until they're mentally ready or just make them do it?  My DS is almost 3.5 and I don't know if my wanting to force him to do it is coming from just being tired of diapers or if it's because I know he can. 

 

I know he knows what to do.  All summer long he was obsessed with using the potty anywhere and everywhere that we went, but refused to give up the diapers.  He stayed dry a lot so I figured potty training would be easy.  He even started by standing up as opposed to sitting down and even had a bowel movement on the potty without any issues.  For once, I thought something would be easy with him.  If you don't recall any of my previous posts about him, he's speech delayed both receptively and expressively and I suspect he has other issues that he seems to be outgrowing, but were never diagnosed.

 

He then regressed and wanted nothing to do with potty training so I backed off.  Everyone pretty much said not to push him so I didn't, but I'm just tired of the diapers.  Now he's to the point where if he pees in his diaper he asks me to change it.  And today he asked for a cookie and when I said no he asked if he could go on the potty.  I let him do it and he asked for the cookie again so I think he thought he could get the cookie if he did something he knew I'd want him to do.

 

He absolutely freaks if I try to put anything on him other than his usual disposable diapers (underwear, cloth diaper) and if I try to leave him naked or with no diaper he cries and cries and cries.  And cries.  And cries some more.  And begs for his diaper.  I kind of went through this with my DD, but she cried for a bit and then moved on.  She asked for her diaper a few times and when I refused that was pretty much it.  So I don't know what to do with him.  I worry with whatever issues he has that it might not be the best thing to force change on him (he's not good with change and it makes him have meltdowns), but I know he knows how and when to use the potty!

 

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

 

No idea, since my son will be 5 in three weeks and still not toilet trained.

 

:grouphug:

Since Rosie opened the door, I'll walk through it.  When I read your post, to me it sounded like more than the normal amount of frustration.  He may turn out to have some SN behind his level of freaking out.  If that's the case, then simply running out of diapers and hyping Thomas the Train undies won't help.

 

My ds was 3.5 when he started potting for daytime.  He has sensory problems and speech problems but no developmental delay.  He's still in a diaper at night.  With him there is no compulsion or compelling or bribery.  Either he wants to do it and is ready or he isn't. 

 

Ok, I just reread your post more closely.  For his speech, is he getting therapy?  PROMPT is the best therapy out there for apraxia.  If his expressive delay is actually due to motor control, look into it.  Even when there are both the expressive and receptive delays, there can be praxis.  In 50% of autism-related speech problems, it's praxis, and then PROMPT can help.  So after that, you've got the issue of a screening for spectrum.  I'm surprised the SLP didn't do it.  Or maybe she did and didn't think you needed to be referred off?  I'd be wanting him checked.  You want to know if there's sensory, dyspraxia, retained primitive reflexes, etc. etc.  They can refer you off for a developmental ped eval or OT.  

 

That was all just bonus, sorry.  Whether he is or is not on the spectrum, he sounds like he definitely has issues with transitions and would benefit from the *techniques* used by people with SN and spectrum kids.  I'd head over to the LC/SN board and ask for books to get you going.  For my boy, I just got Zones of Regulation.  That's one, but there are a ton more out there.  Another one is Unstuck and On Target.  So head to LC and ask for some books, get the ped to do a fresh screening or give you referrals if you haven't had the other evals yet.

 

As for the actual question of the diapers, I'd chill out on it.  It could be a LOT worse.  He could be wetting his pants 5 times a day or stooling in them.  Trust me, I know.  I'd much rather have a 5 yo in diapers.  Btw, with my ds, his ability to control his bowels seems very connected to his sensory.  If he gets overloaded in any way, you can hang it up and expect a string of wet pants.  This is definitely neurological, a SN thing.  If you've got some peace with him wearing the pull-ups and using the toilet when he feels ready, I'd leave it.  That would be AWESOME to me for age 3.5, 4, and even 5... seriously.

 

:grouphug: 

[Amy in NH]

I would run out of diapers.

[Dory]

My oldest was so easy I thought everyone was over exaggerating about the potty training problems. Silly me. My next two clued me in a little better. I had to find what made it 'worth it' for each of the other two. My dd wanted a variety of rewards to choose from and new books to read. I still rotate new books through the bathroom just because I got in the habit of it with her. She was only allowed to read the books when she was going potty. My youngest just flat out refused. I tried everything. Even a few things that I cringe at now because I was getting a little desperate. I finally took him to pick out his first bike and instead he fell in love with this wild, giant wheeled, tricycle (and adult could basically ride that thing) with an adjustable seat and everything. I bit the bullet on the cost and bought it. It went straight to the bathroom and upside down on it's seat and handlebars. He wasn't allowed until he had gone all day with no accidents and no diapers or pullups (other than bedtime of course). He did it right off the bat. He got the bike went for a ride and immediately pooped his pants. I took it back and put it back in the bathroom. Once he knew I'd take it back, that was the last time he messed his pants. Overnights and everything. We haven't had an accident since except when he's sleep walking.

[texasmama]

When my younger son was 3, he refused to use the potty even though he was capable.  He developed a diaper rash so I left him bare butt for several days at home while it healed.  He did not want to potty on himself or the floor, so he went on the potty.  It was underwear after that.

[Rosie_0801]

My eldest required regular chiropractic adjustments to get through potty training. If she'd been turning somersaults on the couch or something, her back would get knocked out and she wouldn't feel the need to go until it was happening. This she found mortifying. With ds, he is finally showing readiness, but doesn't quite care enough yet. I'm being patient, but only because that's the most realistic option. :p

[Wilma]

Can you make it HIS issue?  Like teach him to change his own diaper?  I remember my girls at that age still being in nighty diapers, and they thought it was hilarious to put them on themselves (actually, it was!) and got to the point where they could do it pretty effectively.  I suspect it'd be a lot more convenient for him to just use the bathroom.

[gardenmom5]

I had boys with sensory issues. 

 

one didn't want to give up diapers nor did he want to give up a bottle (which he only started taking after I weaned him at 18mos.)  I made him a godfather offer.  (an offer they can't refuse.)  he could have one or the other, but not both.  when he realized I was serious, he decided to cooperate with toileting because he really wanted that bottle.  (and I had power over the bottle.)

 

the other wouldn't cooperate (but it was obvious he could control it.)  the diapers/pull-ups were hiding the "signal" from him.  I spent the better part of the day with him on bare floors and him in big boy panties and a shirt.  there was no padding to hide any sensations from him. it also meant if he wet/dirtied himself - he really felt it.  he trained fairly quickly after that.

[gardenmom5]

. This she found mortifying.

that was always how I could tell my kids were well on the way to really being trained.  an accident was very upsetting *to them.*  then it's time for mom to be really patient and kind, and helpful.  (which you were)

[SKL]

From your earlier posts, I would look at him as if he is a little younger.  That said, I would put him on the potty at certain times of the day, as frequently as needed to avoid an accident in-between.  That's what I did with my kids when they were not yet reliable (granted, they were a lot younger).  Once I was certain they could do it on their own (and I had donated all their remaining diapers), a spank was the consequence for missing the mark - but I am not recommending that in your case, because your son seems to have some issues my kids did not have.

 

So far, all of my nieces and nephews were older than your son when they finally decided to use the toilet consistently.  I do not understand all the dynamics, but at least know you are not alone.  Don't sweat it.  I don't blame you for wanting to be done with diapers, though.

[PeterPan]

From your earlier posts, I would look at him as if he is a little younger.  That said, I would put him on the potty at certain times of the day, as frequently as needed to avoid an accident in-between.  That's what I did with my kids when they were not yet reliable (granted, they were a lot younger).  Once I was certain they could do it on their own (and I had donated all their remaining diapers), a spank was the consequence for missing the mark - but I am not recommending that in your case, because your son seems to have some issues my kids did not have.

 

So far, all of my nieces and nephews were older than your son when they finally decided to use the toilet consistently.  I do not understand all the dynamics, but at least know you are not alone.  Don't sweat it.  I don't blame you for wanting to be done with diapers, though.

Good advice. That's actually what I do with my 5 yo now when he's having one of those days.  I just start sending him every hour. At this point he won't go back into training pants of pull-ups during the day, because he has in his head they're only for night.  So even if he has already wet 4 times that day, he is bound and determined to stay in undies (won't even go nekked) and wet another set of clothes.   :(

[PeterPan]

Btw, I think someone on LC got told by their something doc (dev. ped, neurologist, don't know)  to try vitamin C to improve sensation for peeing.  Go figure.

[HappyLady]

Since Rosie opened the door, I'll walk through it.  When I read your post, to me it sounded like more than the normal amount of frustration.  He may turn out to have some SN behind his level of freaking out.  If that's the case, then simply running out of diapers and hyping Thomas the Train undies won't help.

 

My ds was 3.5 when he started potting for daytime.  He has sensory problems and speech problems but no developmental delay.  He's still in a diaper at night.  With him there is no compulsion or compelling or bribery.  Either he wants to do it and is ready or he isn't. 

 

Ok, I just reread your post more closely.  For his speech, is he getting therapy?  PROMPT is the best therapy out there for apraxia.  If his expressive delay is actually due to motor control, look into it.  Even when there are both the expressive and receptive delays, there can be praxis.  In 50% of autism-related speech problems, it's praxis, and then PROMPT can help.  So after that, you've got the issue of a screening for spectrum.  I'm surprised the SLP didn't do it.  Or maybe she did and didn't think you needed to be referred off?  I'd be wanting him checked.  You want to know if there's sensory, dyspraxia, retained primitive reflexes, etc. etc.  They can refer you off for a developmental ped eval or OT.  

 

That was all just bonus, sorry.  Whether he is or is not on the spectrum, he sounds like he definitely has issues with transitions and would benefit from the *techniques* used by people with SN and spectrum kids.  I'd head over to the LC/SN board and ask for books to get you going.  For my boy, I just got Zones of Regulation.  That's one, but there are a ton more out there.  Another one is Unstuck and On Target.  So head to LC and ask for some books, get the ped to do a fresh screening or give you referrals if you haven't had the other evals yet.

 

As for the actual question of the diapers, I'd chill out on it.  It could be a LOT worse.  He could be wetting his pants 5 times a day or stooling in them.  Trust me, I know.  I'd much rather have a 5 yo in diapers.  Btw, with my ds, his ability to control his bowels seems very connected to his sensory.  If he gets overloaded in any way, you can hang it up and expect a string of wet pants.  This is definitely neurological, a SN thing.  If you've got some peace with him wearing the pull-ups and using the toilet when he feels ready, I'd leave it.  That would be AWESOME to me for age 3.5, 4, and even 5... seriously.

 

:grouphug: 

 

 

Thank you for some more things I can look into!  I've posted about my DS here before and everyone has given me a lot to read up on when it comes to how to help him.  To answer your questions, he's been evaluated by 8 different people.  At this time, he's not considered autistic or on the spectrum in any way.  His therapists (he has 2 and I just replaced 1 so he's had a total of 3) all agree that they don't think he's autistic.  They don't really think there's anything besides a speech delay with him either, which is frustrating.  I've always suspected some sort of sensory issue, but he was evaluated and I was told no.  His therapists think it could be a possibility, but they don't really see it.  Then again, they don't see him all day, everyday like I do.  LOL  He has shown them his temper tantrums (which he didn't at first and made me look like I was exaggerating his behavior) and they think it's not typical, but not bad enough to be an issue.  The problem with my DS is that he shows the signs for so many things, but doesn't show enough signs of one thing to be diagnosed with anything.  He's an enigma.  LOL

 

The good thing is that right after I originally posted this he came up to me and asked to wear underwear.  He has NEVER asked to wear underwear.  Whenever I tried putting them on him in the past he acted like I was putting underwear that were lit on fire on him.  I was so excited and put them on him.  He ran and showed my DH and then started asking for his diaper.   :glare:  We kept distracting him and though he did keep asking for his diaper, he didn't go into too much of a fit over it.  He went on the potty whenever we asked him to and then eventually it was his bedtime.  We'll see what tomorrow brings.   :lol:

[T'smom]

No advice, but you are not alone. My 3.5 year old dd is not trained yet either and I know she could be if she wanted to. Rewards aren't helping. She doesn't care at all if she is wet or poopy. In fact, she stays away from me when she's poopy because she doesn't want to stop long enough to be changed. Just a few days ago, she brought me a book, handed it to me and went to stand about 6 feet away. She asked if I would read it to her and hold up the book to show her the pics while she was standing over there. She was poopy and didn't want me to know. And she does not have any delays at all, if anything, she's advanced in most areas. Good luck!

[Rosie_0801]

Check him for the spinal galant reflex. Run your finger down each side of his spine, then come and tell us what happened.

[bettyandbob]

I used an ABA approach to training my ds (he has Down syndrome ) . It was torture for me. Additionally, I could not do anything with my other dc while we were training unless dh was home from work and could take over. Essentially, we were stuck in a small area within 10 feet of a bathroom for 3weeks, until ds was somewhat consistent. Part of what happened is ds finally got tired of living next to the potty. From first waking to bedtime, including meals (in the hallway outside of the bathroom). I thought I was going to go mad. If I recall correctly most dc following the plan were trained in less than two weeks, but with his intellectual disabilities ds took a little longer. When he was done, he was using the toilet on a schedule. I think it was about a year before we dropped the schedule and ds was more independent with it.

 

I'm not sure you have to go to the extreme I did, but I would start,by putting him in underpants and not letting him participate in preferred activities until he's consistent. That would likely mean not leaving the house and not having electronics.

[jelbe5]

When I worked with my son I put a long t-shirt on him with nothing on underneath. I wonder if the shirt over a bare bottom would help.

 

My son had a hard time giving up the diaper for a BM. I would put a diaper on him but he had to go into the bathroom to do his business. Eventually he was able to let the diaper go. I wonder if that practice would work for you. As soon as my son was done having a BM in the diaper in the bathroom he went back into regular underpants.

[PeterPan]

Thank you for some more things I can look into!  I've posted about my DS here before and everyone has given me a lot to read up on when it comes to how to help him.  To answer your questions, he's been evaluated by 8 different people.  At this time, he's not considered autistic or on the spectrum in any way.  His therapists (he has 2 and I just replaced 1 so he's had a total of 3) all agree that they don't think he's autistic.  They don't really think there's anything besides a speech delay with him either, which is frustrating.  I've always suspected some sort of sensory issue, but he was evaluated and I was told no.  His therapists think it could be a possibility, but they don't really see it.  Then again, they don't see him all day, everyday like I do.  LOL  He has shown them his temper tantrums (which he didn't at first and made me look like I was exaggerating his behavior) and they think it's not typical, but not bad enough to be an issue.  The problem with my DS is that he shows the signs for so many things, but doesn't show enough signs of one thing to be diagnosed with anything.  He's an enigma.  LOL

 

The good thing is that right after I originally posted this he came up to me and asked to wear underwear.  He has NEVER asked to wear underwear.  Whenever I tried putting them on him in the past he acted like I was putting underwear that were lit on fire on him.  I was so excited and put them on him.  He ran and showed my DH and then started asking for his diaper.   :glare:  We kept distracting him and though he did keep asking for his diaper, he didn't go into too much of a fit over it.  He went on the potty whenever we asked him to and then eventually it was his bedtime.  We'll see what tomorrow brings.   :lol:

I know, this is a frustrating age.  I was getting OT for my dd (then 12) when my ds was 2.  I took him along and showed him to the OT, just curious to see what she'd make of him, and she basically blew everything off, saying xyz was within the realm of normal for the age.  Well that might be, but when he's still doing it 3 years later it's not.  ;)  So you're just at the age where they blow off stuff and can't really distinguish it from normal developmental ranges for purposes of diagnosis.  That doesn't mean you're crazy or not seeing it!  It just means they can't diagnose it per the DSM yet.  He WILL get a label and it IS there.  You are not crazy.  He's just gonna be more like 5/6/7 when he gets his labels.  You also run into practitioners who hate adhd labels and so they just say yeah, he's all boy, blah blah.  When they can't find another definitive label, that's the label they slap on.  It will explain the self-regulation issues, and if you talk with some OTs it's sort of the lightest end of "the spectrum"...  That's not a diagnosis, just saying straight what might happen.  Maybe he's within the realm of normal and just giving you a run for your money.  If not and he's not looking at a spectrum label, that's where it might end up.  So knowing that, you look for things on self-regulation, EF, that sort of thing.  That takes us back to Zones of Regulation, Unstuck & On Target, etc.  Might help you with meltdowns, transitions, etc.  

 

If he had an OT eval, was he low tone?  Sometimes when it doesn't seem like any labels fit, it's because of a chromosomal abnormality.  I'm not meaning to be morbid, just saying that's sometimes why the dots don't connect.  Important thing is to connect all the dots, get the right words for what you're seeing, google those words, and see if there's anything that explains them.  Retained primitive reflexes are what Rosie suggested, and again that's something a good OT SHOULD have checked for and doesn't always.