What do you do when dh & you do not agree on further education for your children?

[Meriwether]

My in-laws kicked my SIL out of the house right after graduation. She was fortunate that her grandmother took her in for the summer. SIL got a job and attended a two year vet assistant program. She was able to provide for herself. When she was kicked out, she had no money, no job, and no place lined up to stay. I still get mad when I think about it. I fully intend to launch my kids, but it will be a soft launch with them being prepared to support themselves.

 

OP, you have a much better idea of the relationships at play here than we do. I am fairly conservative. I know people who think a lot like your Dh, although they see the value of having a backup plan in case marriage doesn't work out. If this is something that has just come up and this was a knee jerk reaction, I would use the brain washing technique. I would list all the reasons why nursing would be a good choice : good part time income, valuable(marketable) skill set, not to mention a great skill set to have in the family.

 

I would do what I could to make things easier for her now. Could she dual enroll and get some credits awhile? Could she start saving money? Babysitting or cleaning houses if there wasn't anything else? Could you help her look into programs and financial aid?

 

I wouldn't allow myself to be set up against my children. Even if you will only be able to offer moral support, I would make sure she knew she had it.

[bettyandbob]

If you have health conditions, life insurance can be prohibitively expensive even if you get it early. I have several friends who have type I (juvenile) diabetes, had childhood cancer, etc. who were unable to afford life insurance when they were just starting out. $20/month is a very reasonable policy amount and I don't think would apply to many people or be sufficient to maintain a family's lifestyle and allow the surviving spouse to stay at home until the children are out of the house. My DH's cost more than that (around $500/yr?) for a $500K policy when I was pregnant with our first. He was 28 and in excellent health. That would not have lasted 18-19 years, and even if it did, then what would the spouse do? He hadn't been working for more than 10 years at a "real" job, just part time crappy jobs during college and we weren't allowed to work the first 2 years of law school, so even using his Social Security would be useless. The only thing the poor widow is supposed to do is find a new man before the life insurance runs out???

 

(Not calling out Mrs. Mungo--I don't think at all she was suggesting a $20/mo policy would solve this problem. Hopefully the military offers reasonable life insurance to its personnel!)

 

I guess I will continue this Off topic direction. We had more cash when oldest ds and dd were born. We have small policies on each of them and have kept them up. For my dd it will likely be the only life insurance she has because of conditions diagnosed since the time of purchase. If she marries/has kids we will change the beneficiary to her next of kin. I know not everyone can do this and we could not do this now ( finances changed), but we are glad we did do it. 

[Mrs Mungo]

If you have health conditions, life insurance can be prohibitively expensive even if you get it early. I have several friends who have type I (juvenile) diabetes, had childhood cancer, etc. who were unable to afford life insurance when they were just starting out. $20/month is a very reasonable policy amount and I don't think would apply to many people or be sufficient to maintain a family's lifestyle and allow the surviving spouse to stay at home until the children are out of the house. My DH's cost more than that (around $500/yr?) for a $500K policy when I was pregnant with our first. He was 28 and in excellent health. That would not have lasted 18-19 years, and even if it did, then what would the spouse do? He hadn't been working for more than 10 years at a "real" job, just part time crappy jobs during college and we weren't allowed to work the first 2 years of law school, so even using his Social Security would be useless. The only thing the poor widow is supposed to do is find a new man before the life insurance runs out???

 

(Not calling out Mrs. Mungo--I don't think at all she was suggesting a $20/mo policy would solve this problem. Hopefully the military offers reasonable life insurance to its personnel!)

You'll notice that your first child is considerably younger than mine. My dh was 23 years old and his policy was for a $300k policy, that was what he has in addition to the policy he maintains through the military. This will all vary widely. I'm the LAST person to be disagreeing with your point-people should have a back up plan other than insurance.

[zoobie]

You'll notice that your first child is considerably younger than mine. My dh was 23 years old and his policy was for a $300k policy, that was what he has in addition to the policy he maintains through the military. This will all vary widely. I'm the LAST person to be disagreeing with your point-people should have a back up plan other than insurance.

I can't see ages on my phone. I went off your number as it was the only one put forward earlier. I know you weren't suggesting we buy life insurance for our daughters' husbands instead of educating them! Sorry my disclaimer wasn't clear enough. :)

[Jennifer3141]

I met a family much like this. While chatting with a mom of a dozen kids, we started asking her how she handles teaching all of them, especially as they get to high school. She looked at us like we were crazy and said that she didn't need to teach all of them. Only two were boys, so she only had to give them a high school education. The 10 girls were just expected to basically sit around after 8th grade, waiting to get married.

 

Didn't know what to say. Still don't.

 

Exactly. Unfortunately, it's not exactly rare in the HS community.

 

It does make me chuckle though that people who believe this stuff then complain when feminist or just plain MAINSTREAM people won't allow their children to interact with families like this.

 

There's no way in heck I want my daughter within 1000 feet of people who practice this, nor my son!!

[marbel]

Exactly. Unfortunately, it's not exactly rare in the HS community.

 

It does make me chuckle though that people who believe this stuff then complain when feminist or just plain MAINSTREAM people won't allow their children to interact with families like this.

 

There's no way in heck I want my daughter within 1000 feet of people who practice this, nor my son!!

 

I've never actually come across people like this, and I doubt if I did we'd strike up much of a friendship.  But, I don't think a little exposure to that viewpoint would hurt my kids.  Might be instructional for them, actually! ;)   I wouldn't be worrying that they'd take to that philosophy, and it's always good to see some lifestyle differences.

 

 

 

 

[creekland]

 

It does make me chuckle though that people who believe this stuff then complain when feminist or just plain MAINSTREAM people won't allow their children to interact with families like this.

 

There's no way in heck I want my daughter within 1000 feet of people who practice this, nor my son!!

 

Why limit interaction?  We've never limited interaction with our boys and I wouldn't for daughters either.  I think it's good for people to have interaction with all sorts of different beliefs/actions.  It either helps people modify who they are or strengthen their beliefs about who they are.  We often had talks growing up about why Johnny's family chose what they did and we didn't (many shelter more than we did).  In the end, my guys get to decide who they are, but they have a bit of different exposures to compare.

 

I certainly wouldn't be worried about about my guys adopting their beliefs - or any daughters I might have had.  It could be beneficial for kids from the other families to see that not all agree with their family's beliefs.

 

When I've seen sheltering, it's almost always the other way - those with super strong beliefs who are "worried" about their little darlings being "corrupted."

 

[FaithManor]

Are they reading the same Bible that I do? (not talking about a different translation but one with different content) Perhaps one missing the story of Job?

 

Bad things can absolutely happen to good people because we live in a broken world.

Actually, what I find is that many have not read their Bibles much at all or

that they've been emersed in the old testament and not the new so they do not

see the larger picture. Mostly though, they are brought up in traditions in which

one believes a single man somewhere in the history of the group to have been

infallible and then follow whatever he said. They do not question it so these

groups can he very cult like. They also apparently know zero church history,

are clueless about the lives of the apostles, and have never read any of the

ancient or medieval church fathers so they have no idea how Christian thought

on the exegesis of scripture has come about. Whomever the primary leader rarely

has any accountability. The bishop of the Amish in our area clearly has dementia

- numerous clergy from the local city have met with him - and he makes crazy

announcements all.the.time. and the people do nothing...just blindly follow.

 

We see this a lot. Doug Phillips, R.C. Sproul J.r. (though there was some

accountability for him and he was defrocked....yet people followed him to a new

church he started), Jimmy Baker, Bill Gothard, ...people are encouraged to put more

faith in extrabiblical, non mainstream Christian thought that is not rooted in

2000 years of Christian history and wrestled with by many great minds,

held to accountability by the wider Body of Christ. Nope, belief in what one man

with no one to answer to says and oft times perpetuated by a spiritually

manipulative,emotionally abusive, and physically restrictive code that makes it

extraordinarily difficult to escape.

 

I hope and pray that NONE of this applies to the OP's husband. I hope he has a

mind and heart open to reason and reproof, and ultimately an unconditional love

for his daughter that trumps his idea of what he believes is ideal.

 

Faith

[Catherine]

My daughter is almost 16, she talks about going to college, lately has talked about becoming a nurse.  Dh is totally against her doing much of anything, he thinks she should focus on getting a husband and raising a family.  I kid you not, this is true.  We just got into an argument about it this morning, great way to start the New Year.  She has no interest in boys and is determined like I was, I can see her going on her own and doing what she wants, that's exactly what I did.  I do believe we need to pray for our children, but I will not encourage her that all she needs is a husband.  I am married to a faithful man, but his parents have helped us out way too much over the years and I will not allow my daughter to go through the same things that my path has led me on.  I know it was God's will, but I don't see anything wrong with having something to fall back on.  If there are any Christian books on this topic, I would be interested in reading them. 

Help!

I did a bit of googling (only a bit) on "displaced homemaker". This is the term for women who are in the position of having to support their families after a long career as a homemaker. I found zero resources from organizations that are explicitly Christian, all that are out there appear to be either government funded or funded by women's organizations. Draw your own conclusions from this.

 

As far as books are concerned, there are plenty of the kind that encourage girls to pursue homemakining as a career. But I found nothing that actually compares the option of homemaking versus getting an education. I also found a very few on amazon by searching for displaced homemaker.

 

However, I don't think it's unusual at all for daughters to find themselves in the position of having to figure out education, money, and independence with minimal family help or support. If your daughter chooses to pursue an education after high school, would it create conflict between you are your dh if you helped her?

[Word Nerd]

It's also odd to me that they're *just now* discussing this.  These things (roles of women in the home, in the workforce, etc.) are things that should have been discussed even before marriage to see if they were compatible.  She had years to teach him and soften him.  A woman has to teach her dh many things and has that power if she starts early and does it gently and quietly.   ;)

 

I wouldn't assume he's necessarily always held this belief. I'm wondering whether he's latched onto the "family economics" teachings of Doug Phillips, Kevin Swanson, Scott Brown, etc. They're negative about formal higher education in general—especially for girls but also for boys—and encourage sons to focus on self-education, apprenticeships, mentorships, home-based businesses, and entrepreneurialism over obtaining professional degrees and working in the corporate world for someone else. If the OP's DH is opposed to the conventional path of higher education and employment in general, he may be even less likely to agree that his DD should go that route. I think my focus would be on reiterating the benefits and value of education and specifically a nursing degree regardless of whether DD chooses to enter the workforce or stay at home in the future. I would also help her get as much relevant education and experience now as possible while homeschooling, and help her find resources and develop a plan for pursuing her degree when she's 18.

[PeterPan]

 

I wouldn't assume he's necessarily always held this belief. I'm wondering whether he's latched onto the "family economics" teachings of Doug Phillips, Kevin Swanson, Scott Brown, etc. They're negative about formal higher education in general—especially for girls but also for boys—and encourage sons to focus on self-education, apprenticeships, mentorships, home-based businesses, and entrepreneurialism over obtaining professional degrees and working in the corporate world for someone else. If the OP's DH is opposed to the conventional path of higher education and employment in general, he may be even less likely to agree that his DD should go that route. I think my focus would be on reiterating the benefits and value of education and specifically a nursing degree regardless of whether DD chooses to enter the workforce or stay at home in the future. I would also help her get as much relevant education and experience now as possible while homeschooling, and help her find resources and develop a plan for pursuing her degree when she's 18.

Good point.  And if a dad changes thought mid-stream, that can also explain why a girl isn't accepting it.  Happily, the DP thing discredits him so badly the mom can PROBABLY bring some sense to him.  I will observe however that not EVERY man who has a particular view on this got there by way of Gothard, DP, the amish, etc.

[Crimson Wife]

Unfortunately, it's not exactly rare in the HS community.

This would make an interesting spin-off poll, because out of all the HSing families I've met since we started in '06, I've never met a single one with this attitude. Even the religious conservatives I know believe in giving all their children with the aptitude for it a college-prep education.

[creekland]

As far as books are concerned, there are plenty of the kind that encourage girls to pursue homemakining as a career. But I found nothing that actually compares the option of homemaking versus getting an education.

 

This would be an interesting comparison, but I can't envision a scenario that would ever put having an education in a negative column as long as one obtained it without massive amounts of debt.

 

I, myself, love having gotten my education even though the only place I technically use it is at school, part time, subbing.  I never went after the career I started heading toward (space science) aside from one summer at the Pentagon (was in AF ROTC).  I have no regrets at all changing course to be a SAHM when my kids were young and switching to part time thereafter.  Even when the empty nest comes later this year, I don't really think I'll go full time.  I enjoy part time way too much.  But I still don't regret getting an education - or keeping up on new things (outside of the classroom).

 

Of course, one of the big things is I could have fallen back on my education to go full time if we'd ever needed it.  I still can if we need it or if I change my mind - not in space sciences, of course, but in teaching where I've been for the past 14 years.  I have a standing offer for a full time job.  ;)

 

I'd hate to be in a position of NOT feeling secure.

 

I suppose some argue that college is there only to learn how to drink and be promiscuous while learning to tow a liberal mindset.  (I've seen that argument used a lot - and not just from religious people.)  Those things can happen in college.  They can also happen without it.  Oldest worked at a food factory here one summer and saw how the vast majority of people spent their meager paycheck at the bar each payday while talking about their relationship gossip during the workday.  It didn't take a college education for them to learn how to do that.  How one chooses to live is based upon their personality more than their education IME.  He went back to school after that summer determined to get his degree and have more options.  So far, neither of my two guys in college have adopted the drinking/promiscuous lifestyle, but then again, neither did I (or hubby) - and all of us have/had plenty of similar minded friends with us.

[Scarlett]

This would make an interesting spin-off poll, because out of all the HSing families I've met since we started in '06, I've never met a single one with this attitude. Even the religious conservatives I know believe in giving all their children with the aptitude for it a college-prep education.

I was telling my mom about this discussion.....she too has never heard of such a thing.

[unsinkable]

This would make an interesting spin-off poll, because out of all the HSing families I've met since we started in '06, I've never met a single one with this attitude. Even the religious conservatives I know believe in giving all their children with the aptitude for it a college-prep education.

Agreed.

 

I don't live in a homeschooling bubble...and I've never run into a family like this

[laundrycrisis]

Going back to the original post - I personally find it completely unfair for any parents, regardless of their religious system of choice, to suggest limited options for their daughters, based on religous or simply sexist ideas, and not for their sons.  It's not logical - women are just as capable as men - and it's not fair.

 

If I found myself married to a man who suggested that my daughter (if I had one) should just focus on marrying and reproducing, whether that was a new idea to him or not, I would throw him under the bus with no apologies, and go gung-ho with encouraging that girl to go for whatever goals she could dream for herself.  She would also get a crash course in feminism/women's lib from me, as well as learning some practical things about how to function as an independent adult. 

 

We are not half-people or second class citizens.  We can be just as financially productive and independent as any man.  When we choose not to because it makes the most sense for our current life circumstances, that is a choice.  But it's not a choice if a young woman doesn't have the means or knowledge to live any other way...then, it's a trap.  If I wanted my child to believe in God, I would not want for her to believe that God wants her to be trapped in an out of date, man-made idea of a gender role. 

 

BTW, I don't believe in any divine being that has a gender.....so the idea that God has ideas about gender roles is very suspicious to me.  Who benefits from those ideas about gender roles ?  Who gets to hold onto their power ?  Who do I think made up those gender roles ?  Yeah.

 

If I had to choose between supporting my daughter or keeping the peace with my husband, my responsibility would be to my child.

 

 

My daughter is almost 16, she talks about going to college, lately has talked about becoming a nurse.  Dh is totally against her doing much of anything, he thinks she should focus on getting a husband and raising a family.  I kid you not, this is true.  We just got into an argument about it this morning, great way to start the New Year.  She has no interest in boys and is determined like I was, I can see her going on her own and doing what she wants, that's exactly what I did.  I do believe we need to pray for our children, but I will not encourage her that all she needs is a husband.  I am married to a faithful man, but his parents have helped us out way too much over the years and I will not allow my daughter to go through the same things that my path has led me on.  I know it was God's will, but I don't see anything wrong with having something to fall back on.  If there are any Christian books on this topic, I would be interested in reading them. 

Help!

 

[Cammie]

I don't know about Christian books on this topic, but, IMHO, your DH is WAY out of line about this. That attitude was probably still common, 100 years ago, but not now. As the father of a DD, I wonder if your DH is from India, or some other country, where girls and women are considered to have a status way below that of boys and men.

 

Sorry - just couldn't let this go without a comment.  You have painted about 1 billion people with a pretty broad brush, there.  I'm guessing you have seen a news report on female infanticide or some other horrible issue and have decided that it represents all of India?  I live in India.  Surrounded by Indians.  Surrounded by people who have loved and supported their daughters just as much as their sons.  My in-laws wanted a granddaughter first and were thrilled when we had a girl.  This is true for many, many families.  In addition, when it comes to education, India does a MUCH better job on encouraging girl students in the maths and sciences.  

 

Are their pockets of sexism in India - absolutely.  Are their terrible crimes perpetuated against women in India - absolutely.  Is there any country in the world you cannot say that about?  Maybe a very, very few. 

 

Given all the talk on this board about patriarchal AMERICAN families, patriarchal CHRISTIAN families...I'm just wondering how you could possibly turn this nonsense outward and project it on to another country and culture?

[LMV]

Sorry - just couldn't let this go without a comment.  You have painted about 1 billion people with a pretty broad brush, there.  I'm guessing you have seen a news report on female infanticide or some other horrible issue and have decided that it represents all of India?  I live in India.  Surrounded by Indians.  Surrounded by people who have loved and supported their daughters just as much as their sons.  My in-laws wanted a granddaughter first and were thrilled when we had a girl.  This is true for many, many families.  In addition, when it comes to education, India does a MUCH better job on encouraging girl students in the maths and sciences.  

 

Are their pockets of sexism in India - absolutely.  Are their terrible crimes perpetuated against women in India - absolutely.  Is there any country in the world you cannot say that about?  Maybe a very, very few. 

 

Given all the talk on this board about patriarchal AMERICAN families, patriarchal CHRISTIAN families...I'm just wondering how you could possibly turn this nonsense outward and project it on to another country and culture?

I have to agree.  One of my good friends is a married to a wonderful Indian man. They are both physicians (his mother is also a physician, as is my friend's father incidentally). Their oldest daughter is at the stage where she doesn't completely grasp that there are careers other than what mommy and daddy do.  He is so thrilled his little girl wants to be a doctor like mommy and daddy.  He bought her a real (albeit a very cheap version) stethoscope for Christmas to play with.  My friend is trying to subtly prepare him for the reality that as their little daughters get a little older they may realize that they can do something other than practice medicine and decide some other path is better for them.  

[Cammie]

The point being that in a nation of 1 billion, with as much cultural diversity as 30 nations - the statement that "girls and women have a status lower than men" is incredibly wrong-headed.  Women run major companies in India, they hold high political offices, India has even had a woman prime minister and currently a woman runs one of the major political parties.  If you go to a high tech company here in India, you will see WAY more women working in the tech industry than you will see in a high tech company in the US.  Do women have challenges in India - god yes!  Are they unique to India - don't think so.  People of all socio-economic status in the area that I live in are working just as hard to get daughters educated as they are to get sons educated. For example our Dhobi (the guy who irons the clothes) has a daughter.  He has been running pillar to post to get her admitted into the best school he can afford.  So it is not only the rich and education who believe that girls and boys are equally entitled to education.  It may depend on where in India a family is from, the cultural group that they are from, the religion they are from, the particular family history.

 

[unfrumpable.]

Going back to the original post - I personally find it completely unfair for any parents, regardless of their religious system of choice, to suggest limited options for their daughters, based on religous or simply sexist ideas, and not for their sons.  It's not logical - women are just as capable as men - and it's not fair.

 

If I found myself married to a man who suggested that my daughter (if I had one) should just focus on marrying and reproducing, whether that was a new idea to him or not, I would throw him under the bus with no apologies, and go gung-ho with encouraging that girl to go for whatever goals she could dream for herself.  She would also get a crash course in feminism/women's lib from me, as well as learning some practical things about how to function as an independent adult. 

 

We are not half-people or second class citizens.  We can be just as financially productive and independent as any man.  When we choose not to because it makes the most sense for our current life circumstances, that is a choice.  But it's not a choice if a young woman doesn't have the means or knowledge to live any other way...then, it's a trap.  If I wanted my child to believe in God, I would not want for her to believe that God wants her to be trapped in an out of date, man-made idea of a gender role. 

 

BTW, I don't believe in any divine being that has a gender.....so the idea that God has ideas about gender roles is very suspicious to me.  Who benefits from those ideas about gender roles ?  Who gets to hold onto their power ?  Who do I think made up those gender roles ?  Yeah.

 

If I had to choose between supporting my daughter or keeping the peace with my husband, my responsibility would be to my child.

 

Love times a million because liking this post wasn't enough. :)

[ColleenInWis]

Prairie~Phlox, I resonate with some of the posts that encourage you to communicate with your husband (avoiding arguments), to draw him out, to try to understand him (and thus help him understand himself).  I personally believe in the leadership of the husband in the home, but I also believe that a wife is given to be a help, and that sometimes the help that is needed is to provide balance.  

 

I don't know of any books on this issue, but there is a lot about it on the internet because a generation of homeschool students who grew up with ideas like this are now speaking out about how unhelpful their upbringing was.  Also, homeschool parents are blogging about the problems in the doctrines that are often taught in christian circles.

 

This site contains a wealth of information because the author reviews cd messages from Vision Forum, which, as you may or may not know, was one of the big leaders in the "stay-at-home daughters" movement.  http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/the-big-box/   Go to the index and find some of the messages about daughters and women, and I think you'll learn from the blog author's critique of the ideas.  

 

This next site is heart-breaking for me to read so I don't recommend it lightly--it will surely upset almost any reader in some way.  Homeschoolers Anonymous is specifically for homeschool graduates to tell their stories about their upbringing--the good, the bad, and the ugly.  Many of the stories by girls express how difficult their lives have been because of the extreme ideas held by their fathers about education, etc.  I'm going to post some that seem to relate to your situation; I'm sure you can find others if you are interested.

 

This one deals with the ideas held by those who oppose feminism, education for daughters, etc.  http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/when-your-daughters-are-the-1-threat-to-your-agenda/

 

 Thoughts by a young woman whose friend wasn't able to attend college:  http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/11/08/dear-rachel-on-your-wedding-day/

 

This critiques the ideas about "vocations" put forth by the Geoffrey Botkins family:  http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/11/12/ready-for-real-life-part-seven-vocations/

 

I believe that FEAR is often the motivation for strict standards and sheltering in religious homes.  http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/snake-oil-homeschooling-the-false-promises-of-fear-and-control/

 

Also this on worrying/fear in parenting by an excellent christian speaker:   http://www.heartlightministries.org/blogs/pttradio/2013/06/28/weekend-parents-moving-worry-wisdom/

 

One more article for you:  http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/10/12/homeschooled-adult-daughters-held-captive-at-home-prevented-from-getting-college-education/

 

If you want to pm me for further discussion, feel free.  I've been doing lots of reading and thinking this winter, in the hope that I can be helpful to christian homeschool families struggling with some of these issues.

[ItoLina]

There is a great documentary on the importance of educating girls called "Girl Rising". It discusses individual as well as the global impacts of denying education to girls. It's really wonderful.

 

http://m.girlrising.com