WWYD - Educational Neglect

[HS Mom in NC]

I agree that there are ps that neglect to educate their students, but where I come from, the ps are teaching children to read, write and do minimal math.  I'm talking about reporting people who are flat out refusing to teach an older  child reading, writing and math. I'm assuming this is a VERY rare circumstance.  I've never seen one before. A lot of homeschoolers have low standards for academics, but most want their kids to be able to read, write, and handle money.

I think if an investigation came along the parents just might find a way to start some phonics and basic math.  Our CPS system is overloaded right now with the children of drug addicts and perverts. Group homes are on the rise here because we don't have enough foster parents-especially for older kids. Threatening to pull the kids unless the kids get something academics going on probably is all it will take. Could it be worse and the kids get removed?  Maybe, but I'm betting it's easy to argue that a poor reader of a homeschooler is no worse off than the poor reader at ps.  A parent doing no school with an older homeschooler is much harder to justify and different than what most ps schools are doing.

[NASDAQ]

The home school regulations here (BC) are more or less zip. So even if I reported it to someone, what would I say? All you have to do is register. CPS would not be intervening because a child can't read.

 

Many, many parents do not raise their children to what I would consider minimal standards. It is beyond any government agency here to intervene in anything but dire cases. If the child is being fed and clothed and not beaten, I wouldn't report.

[shinyhappypeople]

Calling CPS was never, ever on my radar.  I wouldn't do that except in the direst of circumstances, and this situation does not qualify by a long shot.  I think I will mind my own homeschool and offer help and suggestions whenever the opportunity arises.

 

I think this is an important discussion, and I have enjoyed reading the responses, so carry on :)

[shinyhappypeople]

I think I would have said this at one point, before I had read stories like those of the bloggers who are involved in that Coalition for Responsible Homeschooling from the other thread.  Now I can envision a case where a child could be reasonably well-fed, clothed and housed, perhaps spanked in youth but not beyond cultural norms of some places, and not s*xually or otherwise abused or neglected and yet not provided for educationally in any way that would prepare them for the world or allow them access to basic skills.

 

I have also seen some radical unschooling blog posts and online statements that seem to indicate the family is prohibiting the child from accessing educational materials in the interest of the child "figuring it out themselves" but to the point that seems comically bizarre and possibly representing neglect, such as older children or teens who would like to learn to read but the families refuse to give them learn to read materials even when asked for them.  And in those cases, I assume the child is also well-fed, housed, clothed, and not physical abused or even spanked.  Though I have to say this has not been my personal experience of unschoolers at all and I'm a little dubious about it - I don't think it's the norm in most unschooling communities.

 

I agree with everyone saying that some public school children are also educationally neglected.  But one wrong doesn't excuse another wrong.  And I think both are relatively rare.

 

I've read these types of blogs, too, and it blows my mind.  In those (rare) cases I really wonder if the parents are playing some kind of power and control game with the kids.  Nobody should have to beg to learn to read. 

[msjones]

I would involve a government agency only if I was extremely concerned for the child's immediate well-being and no other alternatives were available.

 

For me, that would mean imminent physical danger or threat of kidnapping or something of that nature.  

 

Educational neglect?  I have a looooong list of things I'd put on that list.  But I'd involve the government for precisely none of them.  

 

 

[NASDAQ]

shinyhappypeople, I mentioned CPS because in my jurisdiction, the school system has no ability to intervene in the education of a registered homeschooler. So it's CPS or bust.

[Laura Corin]

 Focusing on preparing for the adulthood that a parent expects their child to have, is not educational neglect, even if it's a narrow and limited future.

 

The world is a big place with lots of little corners. I don't think what goes on in those corners is inferior to what the majority is doing, or less "right". Limited options can make a person more vulnerable to abuse, but limited options aren't abuse.

 

I have to disagree with this.  I'm happy with English case law on this issue, which places importance on the child achieving his/her full potential and being fitted for modern society.  So learning simple arithmetic in order to work on the family sheep farm would only be acceptable if a) the child was not capable of higher maths, and if b ) higher maths (and, in the UK context, a public exam in the subject) would not be necessary for a future change of career, given that maths beyond arithmetic is a basic qualification for almost anything beyond shelf-stacking:

 

A clearer interpretation of some terminology used in the 1944 Education Act (replaced by the 1996 Act), was gained in the case of Harrison & Harrison v Stephenson (appeal to Worcester Crown Court 1981). The term 'suitable education' was defined as one which enabled the children ‘to achieve their full potential’, and was such as ‘to prepare the children for life in modern civilised society’. The term 'efficient' was defined as achieving ‘that which it sets out to achieve’.

 

L

[G5052]

Locally I've encountered it, and I've always done what I could personally, but the law doesn't provide for educational neglect if they file a certain way.  Other than the personal approach, there really isn't anything I can do.

[FriedClams]

Deleted.

[Hunter]

Nobody should have to beg to learn to read.

I had to go beyond begging to learn to read. I had to get sneaky and figure out how to teach myself, and risk being yelled at. Mind you I was only 4, so it wasn't educational neglect by legal standards, but I remember it being the single most frustrating experience of my life, and as someone else said here, it hurt my soul.

 

I would approach an adult with my book and ask them to read just one word to me, and they usually would because it was quicker to read one word than say no. Then I would go back to the couch and study the word, practice all the ones I already knew, and try to apply the code I was learning to new words. Then I would sit and plot how to get another word read to me without getting in trouble.

 

It was a slow and anxiety producing process, teaching myself to read, but I did it.

 

Yeah, no child should have to beg to learn to read, if the parents know how to read themselves. But in my case, it was more about a disinterest in interacting with me at all.

 

Just, sigh! That we even need to have these conversations at all.

 

Laura Corin, as for British law, The USA is a whole other place when it comes to education, and even more different when it comes to rights to basic medical care. I was born in a British colony and I remember experiencing the difference of living under socialism and capitalism as a child. I personally wasn't that much better protected under socialism, because of who my dad was, but other children were.

[Meriwether]

Well said.  I agree with that.  On some level all of us have "limited options."  And I agree that training a child to join a vibrant, sustainable community such as the Amish, is different from simply limiting a child's education as a means of keeping that child under control.

 

I think one element that has been alluded to is the child's agency in this.  Children, especially teens, should have access to basic educational opportunities when they desire them.

I'm going to piggyback on your post. I would like to emphasize, too, that the Amish are not a cult. Many people leave the Amish church. At my grandfather's funeral (born and raised Amish), about half the family attending were Amish. My grandparents left the Amish church when they married. They remained close to their families. My grandmother was allowed to go to high school for a year because she loved school. The public school is the one that limited her education. She wanted Algebra, but they tracked her into home ec. She quit after that year. Her father used to quote long poems from memory. All 4 of my Amish/Mennonite grandparents learned English at school so we're bilingual from an early age. The Amish have a different educational paradigm, but it isn't negligent. They are a subculture and comparing them to mainstream culture is unfair to both.

[Elisabet1]

They don't listen when you report the entire public school system, so.......

 

Oh! Wait! When you were talking educational neglect, you didn't mean the public schools?

 

Well, then....I just ignore it. I figure I do not know 100% about everything, so I could be the one who is wrong. 

 

Now if they are abusing the child, that is another thing...

[Meriwether]

Wait. What? YOU were limited and struggle with it daily but yet you think it is OK? I am unable to understand your reasoning. 

 

 

And for as much as I detest public schools, they do educate the masses and as a general rule most people come out with a basic education that will allow them to, at the very least, attend community college or go to a trade school. How much of a burden is it to send them to school? There are places that help with the cost of supplies. There are programs to give them lunch while they are there if the parents cannot afford it. There are programs to help with uniforms, if required, or decent clothes if not. It is not my first choice, but if I was unable to educate my own child and could not afford to send him to the private school of my choice he could always attend the local B&M school building. OR he would qualify for homebound virtual school through the state due to his health. I am the LAST person to defend public schools in this country, but it is better, by a long shot, than being forcibly kept from an education. 

 

Hell, even a local Mennonite family sent their (incredibly brilliant) daughter off to near by university. The family realized that her desire, and aptitude was such that a university (she still lived at home) was the best place to meet her intellectual needs. 

I know you were not being critical here, but I feel the need to point out that more than half of my Mennonite cousins have college degrees. The most recent graduate is a pharmacist. We have teachers, chemists (although one of these passes away from a brain tumor in his 20's), nurses, an architect, and other professionals among the 25 grandchildren. We also have farmers and plumbers. Some of us stay home with kids, but not one of my aunts, uncles, cousins or my cousins' spouses who have wanted to work during the recession has had trouble keeping their job, getting a job, or even starting a business. It is a mistake to assume the Amish/Mennonites are disadvantaged.

[Dory]

I know people are skimming posts, and missing the nuances of what some people are saying. We all do that.

 

Motive, as I said, is a big part of what defines abuse. Abuse is about coercion, not the tool used. I don't think it's okay to limit a child's education for the purpose of controlling them. I do think it's okay for parent to raise their children for life in corner of the world where they are living, when they are mentally healthy enough to understand the consequences, and are lovingly doing what they think is best for THEIR child, using the resources they have available to them.

 

Mentally healthy people were not making decisions that they thought were best for me, and people were not sharing the resources equally. Cruel and mentally ill people were coercing me, brainwashing me, and physically controlling me, for reasons that benefitted them with little to no regard for my safety and health and happiness.

 

The limits of my teen years were because of different MOTIVES than those of most Amish/Mennonite, Patriarchal, and homesteading families.

 

As for victims finding abusers--sigh! It's a LOT more complicated than that. And I've been in recovery long enough to have been declared as having a better than normal understanding of what is abuse and what is not abuse. I'm never expected to recover from the physical effects and conditioned responses of my PTSD, but I can quote the textbooks better than many people who have been working in the mental health field for decades.

 

Thank you for saying all that. I was getting a little annoyed, but this conversation is too touchy for me and my issues to respond.

[Hunter]

Thank you for saying all that. I was getting a little annoyed, but this conversation is too touchy for me and my issues to respond.

 

Dory :grouphug:

[Entropymama]

If it makes you feel any better I am in my 30's and still struggle to correctly make several letters. Lower case g is one of them. Cursive capital S is another (and my maiden name started with an S!!!) And I was in the gifted programs as a kid. 

 

Well, there you go. It's so hard to know what's really going on in other people's homes. 

[Χά�ων]

I know you were not being critical here, but I feel the need to point out that more than half of my Mennonite cousins have college degrees. The most recent graduate is a pharmacist. We have teachers, chemists (although one of these passes away from a brain tumor in his 20's), nurses, an architect, and other professionals among the 25 grandchildren. We also have farmers and plumbers. Some of us stay home with kids, but not one of my aunts, uncles, cousins or my cousins' spouses who have wanted to work during the recession has had trouble keeping their job, getting a job, or even starting a business. It is a mistake to assume the Amish/Mennonites are disadvantaged.

That is awesome! And 100% counter to the earlier comments about how they do not allow higher education for their children as a reason to support non Amish/Mennonite parents who with hold education from their daughters. I appreciate you saying something. Higher education is discouraged among males in the  Patriarchal/cults completely forbidden to females to the point where education is withheld to an extent as to make pursuing higher education impossible. The with holding of education with the goal of preventing them from leaving the lifestyle or pursuing a college education IS abuse and from your own account, contrary to the Mennonite community.  Again, those who are supporting withholding the lifestyle are using the Mennonites as an example and it turns out that many do opt for higher education from what you are saying. 

 

So it goes back to the cults that are using educational neglect to prevent people from leaving, specifically females. 

 

 

 

I live in a very rural area and the Mennonite families I know personally often have farms and small businesses, often working in the trades and running a farm. Actually, that is very common here for non Amish/Mennonites. The family I know who sent their DD to the university lived on a farm and dad ran a repair shop for farm equipment. She was the only one to pursue college education in the family. The 3 oldest boys went into various trades and the youngest plans to work for his father. The Amish woman I used to get my eggs from was not the chattiest so I did not get to know her that well but that is where I heard about the death of the young father. 

[Hunter]

From my understanding, each Amish church makes the rules for their own church, and the rules differ for each one. The Mennonites mostly group themselves into conferences and some conferences are much more liberal than others. Also some parents help their children pursue education and careers that make them ineligible for church membership.

 

When it comes to education, you can make few definitive statements about the Amish and Mennonites as a whole. But we can give examples from the Amish/Mennonite community.

[Χά�ων]

From my understanding, each Amish church makes the rules for their own church, and the rules differ for each one. The Mennonites mostly group themselves into conferences and some conferences are much more liberal than others. Also some parents help their children pursue education and careers that make them ineligible for church membership.

 

When it comes to education, you can make few definitive statements about the Amish and Mennonites as a whole. But we can give examples from the Amish/Mennonite community.

 

You have made several such statements and used the statements to defend families who opt to with hold education from their daughters.

[Hunter]

You have made several such statements and used the statements to defend families who opt to with hold education from their daughters.

I have repeatedly used the terms "some" and "most" instead of "the".

 

I am not defending withholding "education" of daughters. I made the statement that "education" is wider than what is most commonly taught in Western public schools, especially in non-mainstream cultures.

[Χά�ων]

I have repeatedly used the terms "some" and "most" instead of "the".

 

I am not defending withholding "education" of daughters. I made the statement that "education" is wider than what is most commonly taught in Western public schools, especially in non-mainstream cultures.

Not allowing a female to pursue an education, no matter how you opt to define it, that will allow her to be INDEPENDENT in society is abuse. Non-mainstream culture or otherwise, if someone reaches the age of majority and lacks the basic skills needed to go out, find employment or pursue education that would make it possible for them to be independent then they have NOT been educated.

 

We live in a western society. Like it or not. Using the guise of religious beliefs as a reason to limit future of someone is abuse and neglect. Now, I am not against teaching skills that will make it possible for them to continue the lifestyle they grew up with, but not at the expense of an education that will prevent them from leaving.

 

I am working on setting up a homestead. My DS is learning about raising chickens for the eggs, how to build a green house, how to raise a massive garden, preserve food for the winter and how to butcher animals. He is also receiving an education that will allow him to pursue a college education, if he so desires. If he reaches the age of majority and is unable to do this, then I have failed. If he wishes to maintain the homesteading lifestyle (and he has expressed interest in it) he will have the skills to make that choice. 

 

I guess it is about CHOICE. Do the children who are receiving the non western education have enough of the basic skills to make a choice or did the parents decide for them? If they lack the skills to go to community college, trade school or straight into university then the parents decided for them and have set it up so that the children cannot make that choice. THAT is abusive.

[Hunter]

We live in a western society. Like it or not.

YOU live in a Western society. There is a world full of people, most of which do not live in the society that YOU do.

 

As I said in one of my first posts

 

I have a knee-jerk negative reaction to this, but then I need to pull back and take a wider view.

 

The world is a big place.

[Laura Corin]

Laura Corin, as for British law, The USA is a whole other place when it comes to education, and even more different when it comes to rights to basic medical care. I was born in a British colony and I remember experiencing the difference of living under socialism and capitalism as a child. I personally wasn't that much better protected under socialism, because of who my dad was, but other children were.

 

Just so that I am clear: are you saying that Britain is a socialist country, or that the colony in which you were born was?  It's just that I've lived in a socialist country (China), and a modern liberal democracy like the UK is not the same beast.  

 

The people of Britain have chosen to have some areas of life to be organised by government and funded centrally through enforced contributions (the NHS, school system, government pensions, etc.), as have the people of the USA (Medicaid, Medicare, school system, Social Security).  It's just a question of degree and democratic choice. 

 

Back to the subject at hand: yes, the UK is a different country from the US, but I find it useful in finding my way to opinions to consider how things are done in other places.  Indeed, in your posts you seem to be looking widely beyond 'the mainstream' for answers.

 

L

[shinyhappypeople]

Not allowing a female to pursue an education, no matter how you opt to define it, that will allow her to be INDEPENDENT in society is abuse. Non-mainstream culture or otherwise, if someone reaches the age of majority and lacks the basic skills needed to go out, find employment or pursue education that would make it possible for them to be independent then they have NOT been educated.

 

(snip)

 

I guess it is about CHOICE. Do the children who are receiving the non western education have enough of the basic skills to make a choice or did the parents decide for them? If they lack the skills to go to community college, trade school or straight into university then the parents decided for them and have set it up so that the children cannot make that choice. THAT is abusive.

 

Why do you assume that these girls - assuming that they're raised in healthy, non-abusive families - are unable to function in the mainstream world?  

 

It doesn't take a lot of academic preparation to get a job and support yourself.  You need to be able to read, do basic math and write well enough to fill out forms. (FWIW, that's the academic skill level of many of the high school graduates at the local public school)

 

That level of academic skill will also get you straight into community college (remedial classes) if you decide you want to improve your skills to get a better job or pursue a college degree.

 

Not having a traditional western education isn't necessarily dooming these girls to a horrible existence.  

 

Choosing differently isn't the same as choosing badly.  

[FriedClams]

The illiteracy rate (level 2 - cannot read a job application) in my county for ages 16+ is 51%. Nationwide (US) it's 19% and has been steady for per 10 years - despite spending more and more money per student. I fail to see how the public education system is across the board successful or providing a basic education for all enrollees.

 

Physical abuse - report. Alleged educational neglect - too many variables to even consider putting anyone through the horror of CPS.

[Meriwether]

Why do you assume that these girls - assuming that they're raised in healthy, non-abusive families - are unable to function in the mainstream world?  

 

It doesn't take a lot of academic preparation to get a job and support yourself.  You need to be able to read, do basic math and write well enough to fill out forms. (FWIW, that's the academic skill level of many of the high school graduates at the local public school)

 

That level of academic skill will also get you straight into community college (remedial classes) if you decide you want to improve your skills to get a better job or pursue a college degree.

 

Not having a traditional western education isn't necessarily dooming these girls to a horrible existence.  

 

Choosing differently isn't the same as choosing badly.  

Education levels can vary widely among the Amish/Mennonite communities as has been mentioned. There are many that do only receive an eighth grade education. It is a solid 8th grade education, though. The thing that the Amish/Mennonite kids have going for them is that they are taught to work. Hard. They are responsible. They have skills. Their *life* is a trade school. A girl leaving the community (which, again, is not the same as leaving a cult) would have a very good chance of finding employment. College, for boys and girls, would require a lot of effort without family support. Which is a pretty true statement for many people other than the Amish/Mennonite communities. The edge they would have over the general population is a really strong work ethic.

 

These are all generalizations, of course, but I know of hundreds of families who are either Amish/Mennonite now or left the community. I do not know even one family who is struggling. Many of those who left have professional careers. That doesn't mean everyone is wealthy. I grew up in a home that was cash poor. Dad bought a farm when I was a kid. Everything went into the farm for the first 25 years. Mom and Dad are comfortable now. Not rich. But Dad made choices. He left a job in management to farm. Good thing he was raised on a farm so he had the requisite skills. Think of all those city kids stuck in management jobs that would have to learn farming skills if they wanted to farm. ;)

[Crimson Wife]

I guess it is about CHOICE. Do the children who are receiving the non western education have enough of the basic skills to make a choice or did the parents decide for them? If they lack the skills to go to community college, trade school or straight into university then the parents decided for them and have set it up so that the children cannot make that choice. THAT is abusive.

Except that in most places, there are adult schools specifically set up to help those without a high school diploma earn one. Students who successfully earn a diploma or pass the GED can go on to trade school or college. You make it sound as though if a child hasn't gotten the skills needed by age 18, he/she is forever doomed. That is simply untrue.

[Χά�ων]

Why do you assume that these girls - assuming that they're raised in healthy, non-abusive families - are unable to function in the mainstream world?  

 

It doesn't take a lot of academic preparation to get a job and support yourself.  You need to be able to read, do basic math and write well enough to fill out forms. (FWIW, that's the academic skill level of many of the high school graduates at the local public school)

 

That level of academic skill will also get you straight into community college (remedial classes) if you decide you want to improve your skills to get a better job or pursue a college degree.

 

Not having a traditional western education isn't necessarily dooming these girls to a horrible existence.  

 

Choosing differently isn't the same as choosing badly.  

 

 

And what job, pray tell, could someone walk into without even a high school education that would pay enough to support themselves, including medical benefits without relying on a dime of public support? 

 

Remedial classes are very very expensive at the college level and that is a lot of debt to catch up to those who received an education. Years of paying for remedial classes that will not count towards a degree but still have the same credit hour price tag is not the best way to start out in life, and WHY would anyone wish that on their child?

[Χά�ων]

Except that in most places, there are adult schools specifically set up to help those without a high school diploma earn one. Students who successfully earn a diploma or pass the GED can go on to trade school or college. You make it sound as though if a child hasn't gotten the skills needed by age 18, he/she is forever doomed. That is simply untrue.

You assume that a young adult who has lived a sheltered life will have the knowledge and skills to find such a place. And then there is the built in shame that comes with accepting any sort of outside help that is deeply embed into the minds of the young adult. 

[Χά�ων]

YOU live in a Western society. There is a world full of people, most of which do not live in the society that YOU do.

 

As I said in one of my first posts

 

 

I am referring to people who live in a western society but who are being kept away from it and are not learning what is needed to be a part of the society into which they live. 

[Χά�ων]

Education levels can vary widely among the Amish/Mennonite communities as has been mentioned. There are many that do only receive an eighth grade education. It is a solid 8th grade education, though. The thing that the Amish/Mennonite kids have going for them is that they are taught to work. Hard. They are responsible. They have skills. There *life* is a trade school. A girl leaving the community (which, again, is not the same as leaving a cult) would have a very good chance of finding employment. College, for boys and girls, would require a lot of effort without family support. Which is a pretty true statement for many people other than the Amish/Mennonite communities. The edge they would have over the general population is a really strong work ethic.

 

These are all generalizations, of course, but I know of hundreds of families who are either Amish/Mennonite now or left the community. I do not know even one family who is struggling. Many of those who left have professional careers. That doesn't mean everyone is wealthy. I grew up in a home that was cash poor. Dad bought a farm when I was a kid. Everything went into the farm for the first 25 years. Mom and Dad are comfortable now. Not rich. But Dad made choices. He left a job in management to farm. Good thing he was raised on a farm so he had the requisite skills. Think of all those city kids stuck in management jobs that would have to learn farming skills if they wanted to farm. ;)

I will second that! 

[Pen]

Why do you assume that these girls - assuming that they're raised in healthy, non-abusive families - are unable to function in the mainstream world?  

 

It doesn't take a lot of academic preparation to get a job and support yourself.  You need to be able to read, do basic math and write well enough to fill out forms. (FWIW, that's the academic skill level of many of the high school graduates at the local public school)

 

That level of academic skill will also get you straight into community college (remedial classes) if you decide you want to improve your skills to get a better job or pursue a college degree.

 

Not having a traditional western education isn't necessarily dooming these girls to a horrible existence.  

 

Choosing differently isn't the same as choosing badly.  

 

I have met a few Amish people in my life, and the reason I used the example was that the ones I met, both male and female, had much less education than  I have had, but I think were far, far happier and more secure in their lives. They also had the option to leave and a time for a deliberate wilding experience in the world of the English (as they called it), that is the non-Amish world, in order to see what it was like. 

 

Would you be willing to say any more at this point about the situation you have observed IRL as it would now be fairly buried in this long thread? You also made clear that calling CPS is not on your radar anyway, so ... hmmm ... well, I think it was the reluctance to post more details that made some of us think perhaps that was what you were considering. Just trying to figure out what one might perhaps say or not say to the family/parents/children or do or not do to help, doesn't seem to me like it needs to be so hidden, and might in any case help others who are reading the thread to have such ideas.

 

From the above post it would seem that you do not see the child(ren) in question getting even enough math and reading as to be able to fill out forms? What is the choosing "badly" that you are observing?

[shinyhappypeople]

And what job, pray tell, could someone walk into without even a high school education that would pay enough to support themselves, including medical benefits without relying on a dime of public support? 

 

Remedial classes are very very expensive at the college level and that is a lot of debt to catch up to those who received an education. Years of paying for remedial classes that will not count towards a degree but still have the same credit hour price tag is not the best way to start out in life, and WHY would anyone wish that on their child?

 

(1) Entry level work (fast food, retail) and factory work come immediately to mind. My husband supervises people like this *all the time*.  (Not Amish, but public schooled)

 

(2)  Remedial classes are free through Adult School and cheap (or free with financial aid) through the community college.

[Dana]

 

(2) Remedial classes are free through Adult School and cheap (or free with financial aid) through the community college.

This will depend on your state. I teach remedial math at the cc. If you're in our county, a 3 credit course costs $453 plus fees and texts. Financial aid can often be loans. I see a number of students lose scholarships and grants for not keeping up their GPA. Often they haven't learned how to study and have no real idea of how much work outside of class will be necessary to master material.

 

If a student starts at the most basic level, it will take them 4 classes and 14 credits to make it to the first course that would transfer to some 4 year colleges. So that's well over $2000 and a over a year of classes.

 

That also doesn't take into account child care or transportation to the cc, something that is an issue for a number of my students who work a full time job and take night classes.

 

I think it's wonderful that we have resources available for people to return and get an education, but I know it was incredibly easy for me to get an undergrad and grad degree without trying to work and raise a family at the same time. It's an incredible effort the good students make and it isn't easy to just go back and get caught up.

[Χά�ων]

(1) Entry level work (fast food, retail) and factory work come immediately to mind. My husband supervises people like this *all the time*.  (Not Amish, but public schooled)

 

(2)  Remedial classes are free through Adult School and cheap (or free with financial aid) through the community college.

1. You are aware that those jobs cannot pay the bills and rarely offer health insurance correct?

 

Factory work is awesome, if there is an opening for a permanent position. Those are in high demand. Locally, the factory jobs receive thousands of applications per spot and have a 6 month-year turn over by design. The plants run a certain time frame, shut down and lay everyone off and then hire all new people 3 months later. I hope it is different elsewhere. My father had one of these jobs when he was laid off and before he was taken on by his current employer. He worked there for 4 months. Within 2 months of his taking his current job the plant shut down and let everyone go.

 

 

2. The classes are not free unless one is homeless and lives in a certain county. My county does not offer them unless one is willing to jump through a bunch of hoops. 

[Clear Creek]

What would you do if  you saw what you believed to be educational neglect?

 

Nothing.  I have seen several cases of it, and it has nothing to do with unschooling and everything to do with the mother not having the time to sit with the kid and help the kid through the work and make sure the kid is actually doing the work, so the kid stalls out at that grade level for several years.  I met a family six years ago who had a child in kindergarten; that child is now halfway through her second grade math book and is still unable to read - *six* years later, I repeat - and her mother attributes it 100% to not having time to teach her.  I know the child and the family very well, and I do not believe there are any LD's, they just don't get around to doing any schoolwork most days and the child has zero motivation to learn anything on her own.  I know another family who has a child who has been in the 2nd grade for the last 3.5 years; the mother tells him to go do his schoolwork and he doesn't.  She complains that she doesn't have time to sit with him while he does his work, he needs to do it all on his own....the stuff she has to do is more important.  At this point in time neither mother is making any effort to remedy the situation and offer assistance or instruction time to their child, and the children are making zero progress; I do not see the situations changing any time soon.  In my opinion, this is educational neglect.  

 

How do YOU personally define educational neglect?  Does it differ than that of your state/province?

 

I define educational neglect as not providing a child (who has the capacity to learn) with a basic education - the three R's.  My state's only requirements for homeschooling are to teach the three R's along with spelling, grammar, and good citizenship (or something along those lines).  Theoretically one could still be teaching a high schooler first grade math and reading and have it not be considered educational neglect in my state.  Since both of the families I mentioned above have a course of study in the required topics available to their child (even if the child is taking years and years to complete a grade, if at all), they are not breaking the law. 

 

Would your first response differ depending on the age of the child?  

 

No.  Whether the child is six or sixteen, they deserve to learn at least the basics in order to function in our society.

 

This is something I'm wrestling with IRL, though for obvious reasons I'm giving no details here.

 

[KathyJo]

1. You are aware that those jobs cannot pay the bills and rarely offer health insurance correct?

 

But plenty of people have those types of jobs, and jobs that don't offer health insurance. Just because one has to take a low-end job when one is starting out, that doesn't mean that one was abused. 

[Χά�ων]

Being forced to take a low end job because of abuse is an issue. Especially since many of the cults who view educating girls s unnecessary also have drilled into them that only lazy, worthless people take handouts.

 

Oh and I have yet to meet anyone able to pay the bills by working in fast food. Not having health insurance would result in my son's death due to his medical condition. He would not make enough to pay out of pocket for his medications ($2,000+/month) and without them he will die a slow, painful death.

But plenty of people have those types of jobs, and jobs that don't offer health insurance. Just because one has to take a low-end job when one is starting out, that doesn't mean that one was abused. 

 

[Dana]

Being forced to take a low end job because of abuse is an issue. Especially since many of the cults who view educating girls s unnecessary also have drilled into them that only lazy, worthless people take handouts.

 

Oh and I have yet to meet anyone able to pay the bills by working in fast food. Not having health insurance would result in my son's death due to his medical condition. He would not make enough to pay out of pocket for his medications ($2,000+/month) and without them he will die a slow, painful death.

Even McDonalds suggested that its employees have a second job and get state and federal benefits to make ends meet. (Sounds like they just took down that website.)

[KathyJo]

Being forced to take a low end job because of abuse is an issue. Especially since many of the cults who view educating girls s unnecessary also have drilled into them that only lazy, worthless people take handouts.

 

Oh and I have yet to meet anyone able to pay the bills by working in fast food. Not having health insurance would result in my son's death due to his medical condition. He would not make enough to pay out of pocket for his medications ($2,000+/month) and without them he will die a slow, painful death.

 

You seemed to have been arguing that the level of education that would force one into that level of job is in itself abusive. That's circular.

 

I just don't think we can call parents abusive for no other reason than their children needing to take a low-end job to start off. And really, the kinds of groups that you're talking about, the education is usually the least of the offenses. There's true abuse going on there, not merely educational neglect.

 

We live differently. We're preparing our children to the best of our ability to be able to live like we do, or go live like we used to. Thankfully, I don't have to choose. But if I had to, I would focus on the way we choose to live. Our way of life teaches our children to feed themselves from their own land. The Western way would only teach them how to work for someone else. So, I'd be extremely opposed to any system that insisted that my way is of less importance, that the child's place as a contributing member of society is more important than his ability to feed himself without a grocery store. The Amish and the Mennonites aren't the only ones who have the right to choose a way of life, and to teach their children accordingly.

[NASDAQ]

Types of Amish/Hutterite/other religious or social movements concern me much less because they're a going concern. I don't agree with what they're doing. But they've been doing it successfully for a long time. They produce children who grow into adults who function in their society and, perhaps marginally, outside of it. They have developed systems to manage problems such as "how do we handle health care." u

[shinyhappypeople]

I have met a few Amish people in my life, and the reason I used the example was that the ones I met, both male and female, had much less education than  I have had, but I think were far, far happier and more secure in their lives. They also had the option to leave and a time for a deliberate wilding experience in the world of the English (as they called it), that is the non-Amish world, in order to see what it was like. 

 

Would you be willing to say any more at this point about the situation you have observed IRL as it would now be fairly buried in this long thread? You also made clear that calling CPS is not on your radar anyway, so ... hmmm ... well, I think it was the reluctance to post more details that made some of us think perhaps that was what you were considering. Just trying to figure out what one might perhaps say or not say to the family/parents/children or do or not do to help, doesn't seem to me like it needs to be so hidden, and might in any case help others who are reading the thread to have such ideas.

 

From the above post it would seem that you do not see the child(ren) in question getting even enough math and reading as to be able to fill out forms? What is the choosing "badly" that you are observing?

 

I know a teenage boy who has had a sporadic education for many years and is, as far as I know, working at least a few grade levels behind in math and English (middle school level?).  As far as I know, his family is stable, loving and there's no abuse going on, so I'm going to butt out.  He can sign up for remedial community college classes next year  (along with a whole lot of public high school graduates...) so  he'll have a chance to to fill in the gaps and figure out his next step.

 

My knee-jerk response was basically that it might be educational neglect. Having had time to think it through, and also read the responses here, I think my initial response was wrong.  I'm glad I didn't say anything to the parents.  There's no way in Hades I'd ever call CPS over something like this.

[shinyhappypeople]

1. You are aware that those jobs cannot pay the bills and rarely offer health insurance correct?

 

Factory work is awesome, if there is an opening for a permanent position. Those are in high demand. Locally, the factory jobs receive thousands of applications per spot and have a 6 month-year turn over by design. The plants run a certain time frame, shut down and lay everyone off and then hire all new people 3 months later. I hope it is different elsewhere. My father had one of these jobs when he was laid off and before he was taken on by his current employer. He worked there for 4 months. Within 2 months of his taking his current job the plant shut down and let everyone go.

 

 

2. The classes are not free unless one is homeless and lives in a certain county. My county does not offer them unless one is willing to jump through a bunch of hoops. 

 

1.  I supported myself for years post-college in crappy minimum wage (or close to minimum wage) jobs while I figured out what I wanted to do with my life.  It can be done easily. Add kids into the equation and it gets much, much more difficult. 

 

2.  In my town, "Adult School" is free for anyone.  This is for GED prep, remediating basic academic skills, etc.  I didn't realize that all areas didn't have this type of program.  Very disappointing :(  I'd love to see something like this in every county available to everyone.  

 

I recognize that it's far from ideal to possess only the super basic skills I described in a previous post.  It does limit options in the short term, and it can be a PITA to fill in the gaps.

 

My point was (is) that it's not automatically abusive for a parent to make non-mainstream educational choices for their children or choose not to offer a college-prep education.  And when parents do make education decisions that turn out to be less than ideal for a particular child, things can usually be made right with some effort and patience.  It's not the end of the world, and parenting mistakes aren't the same as abuse.

[msjones]

Consider, too, that some cultures would call a typical American public school education abusive.

 

Some families who love and cherish their daughters consider it neglect/abuse to require girls to attend co-ed classes, to allow them to dress in contemporary clothing, participate in sports, etc.

 

I don't share those beliefs.  But an American has religious freedom.  

 

We can't call the cops on our neighbors just because we disagree with their culture.

 

Thank goodness.

[Hunter]

Just so that I am clear: are you saying that Britain is a socialist country, or that the colony in which you were born was?  It's just that I've lived in a socialist country (China), and a modern liberal democracy like the UK is not the same beast.  

 

The people of Britain have chosen to have some areas of life to be organised by government and funded centrally through enforced contributions (the NHS, school system, government pensions, etc.), as have the people of the USA (Medicaid, Medicare, school system, Social Security).  It's just a question of degree and democratic choice. 

 

Back to the subject at hand: yes, the UK is a different country from the US, but I find it useful in finding my way to opinions to consider how things are done in other places.  Indeed, in your posts you seem to be looking widely beyond 'the mainstream' for answers.

 

L

 

 

 

My primary citizenship is British, but I have never been to Britain; excuse my ignorance. I've spent so long listening to others describe Britain and it's colonies as socialist. I remember, as a child, listening to the adults in my colony argue about politics, but didn't totally understand. My American mom always referred to my father's country as socialist.

 

China is still officially communist and working TOWARDS socialism?

 

Britain has socialized medicine? Socialized schooling? Britain calls them something else?

 

Labels are difficult, but I know I EXPERIENCED something very different when I country hopped. The basic medical care and education I received in the colony was far superior than what I received in the USA. For complex medical needs, when I was young and my parents were healthier and wealthier, I did  travel to the USA for second opinions, though. It is much rarer, now, that people need to leave the colony for medical care, no matter what their income bracket. And for poor children just needing basic care, the socialized medicine is MUCH better.

 

The view of children in the colony is very different from the USA. They are more protected, and there are services to support the parent, rather than just to threaten them into obtaining services for their children. I wasn't personally safer in the colony, but I deeply sensed that it was a safer place in GENERAL for children.

[TheAutumnOak]

Short on time at the moment, so my quick response is "no", I would not call CPS or anyone else to report what I thought was educational neglect...The situation would have to be horrible for me to even consider a call to CPS, and there is nothing educational that I can think of that would warrant that call...

[laundrycrisis]

I know a teenage boy who has had a sporadic education for many years and is, as far as I know, working at least a few grade levels behind in math and English (middle school level?).  As far as I know, his family is stable, loving and there's no abuse going on, so I'm going to butt out.  He can sign up for remedial community college classes next year  (along with a whole lot of public high school graduates...) so  he'll have a chance to to fill in the gaps and figure out his next step.

 

My knee-jerk response was basically that it might be educational neglect. Having had time to think it through, and also read the responses here, I think my initial response was wrong.  I'm glad I didn't say anything to the parents.  There's no way in Hades I'd ever call CPS over something like this.

 

Good call.  You can't really know why he's behind, and he might have been just as far behind if he had been in public school.  There may have been good reasons for his education to be something that looks "sporadic" from the outside.  And the way the remedial classes are set up might be perfect for him.  I took a remedial math class at a 4 yr university, and it was fantastic.  I'm so glad I took that class in the college environment in one semester, instead of in high school, spread over a year and with all the high school nonsense that goes on.

 

 

[Χά�ων]

1.  I supported myself for years post-college in crappy minimum wage (or close to minimum wage) jobs while I figured out what I wanted to do with my life.  It can be done easily. Add kids into the equation and it gets much, much more difficult. 

 

2.  In my town, "Adult School" is free for anyone.  This is for GED prep, remediating basic academic skills, etc.  I didn't realize that all areas didn't have this type of program.  Very disappointing :(  I'd love to see something like this in every county available to everyone.  

 

I recognize that it's far from ideal to possess only the super basic skills I described in a previous post.  It does limit options in the short term, and it can be a PITA to fill in the gaps.

 

My point was (is) that it's not automatically abusive for a parent to make non-mainstream educational choices for their children or choose not to offer a college-prep education.  And when parents do make education decisions that turn out to be less than ideal for a particular child, things can usually be made right with some effort and patience.  It's not the end of the world, and parenting mistakes aren't the same as abuse.

1. I call BS. You really worked a minimum wage job, paid back student loans, paid rent, health insurance, utility bills transportation costs and so on working only one minimum wage job. So every other person who has worked one minimum wage job but been unable to live is full of it? The calculators and that showed the only reasonable way to make it work was if health insurance was only $100/month, they didn't have heat and they worked a second job, were lying? 

 

 

I stand by that it is abuse to willingly withhold education to the point that the person is unable to get a job where they can support themselves, thus making them dependent of the parents/husband/cult. 

[Laura Corin]

 

My primary citizenship is British, but I have never been to Britain; excuse my ignorance. I've spent so long listening to others describe Britain and it's colonies as socialist. I remember, as a child, listening to the adults in my colony argue about politics, but didn't totally understand. My American mom always referred to my father's country as socialist.

 

China is still officially communist and working TOWARDS socialism?

 

Britain has socialized medicine? Socialized schooling? Britain calls them something else?

 

Labels are difficult, but I know I EXPERIENCED something very different when I country hopped. The basic medical care and education I received in the colony was far superior than what I received in the USA. For complex medical needs, when I was young and my parents were healthier and wealthier, I did  travel to the USA for second opinions, though. It is much rarer, now, that people need to leave the colony for medical care, no matter what their income bracket. And for poor children just needing basic care, the socialized medicine is MUCH better.

 

The view of children in the colony is very different from the USA. They are more protected, and there are services to support the parent, rather than just to threaten them into obtaining services for their children. I wasn't personally safer in the colony, but I deeply sensed that it was a safer place in GENERAL for children.

 

 

No, Britain doesn't describe itself as socialist.  As I stated, like the US it has some services provided centrally.  The main difference is in health care: in the US what we have in the UK is called socialised medicine; in the UK it is usually called the National Health Service, or 'health care free at the point of delivery'.  

 

The word 'socialist' is thrown around as a pejorative in US politics.  I don't object to it, but it's used as such a broad brush as to be meaningless.  Here's one definition, which fits how China was when I first lived there (China is run by the Communist Party but only ever claimed to have reached Socialism, on the way to Communism; these days I'd describe it as 'post-Socialist'):

 

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

Western European countries I would describe as:

 

Capitalist with a relatively generous safety net.

 

There are very few industries in the UK where the means of production, distribution and exchange are owned by the community as a whole: companies are mostly privately owned, as are trucking services/railways and banks.

 

L

 

 

[Hunter]

I'm really far behind in responding to some of these very interesting posts. I'll try and get to them as I can.