Don't speak ill of the dead...

[happi duck]

Isn't it normal to not speak ill of the dead?  How could there be any point to saying carpy things to people about their lost loved ones?

 

This has come up twice in the last couple weeks.  It's really hurtful. (eta: two different people, not the same person re-hashing...)

 

Why does "I have the right to say whatever I want" come before being kind?  Such selfishness.

 

:rant:

 

Thanks for letting me rant...

[Liz CA]

Could you interrupt them and say: "He/She is passed on now. Let's leave it at that?"

 

 

[happi duck]

Could you interrupt them and say: "He/She is passed on now. Let's leave it at that?"

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

This is actually two different instances...two different people speaking about different ones who've died.  (Not the same person bringing it up again.)

 

Each situation was handled with basically 'he's gone, we don't need to talk about this' and was met with basically 'well I'm just saying...'

 

We let those speaking ill have the last word.  It just makes me sad.  I thought people were more careful since once people die they can neither defend themselves nor fix whatever it is they may/may not have said or done.  Those of us left behind are the ones who are hurt.

[Catwoman]

Personally, I don't really care what people say about a person after they die, because maybe that person was really rotten to them and they're still very bitter about it, and they need to get it off their chest, so they blurt it out to someone. I don't think it's in particularly good taste to do it, though -- and I would certainly prefer not to be the one they choose to tell about it.

 

What I do have a problem with, however, is when they make the nasty comments in front of someone who is grieving over the loss of the deceased person. That's just mean. It goes way beyond not having respect for the dead; it's not having respect for someone who is sad and upset and who would probably prefer not to know about everything the deceased person has ever done to offend other people when he was alive.

[DawnM]

This is how I feel too.

 

My mother was originally from the South and didn't believe you should speak ill of the dead, but it seemed to have some sort of superstition thing attached to it, which she said she didn't believe, but still seemed to permeate her view on the matter.

 

I tend to agree with Catwman.  Sometimes you have to get it out if the person really hurt you or did emotional damage.

 

My aunt was a bit nuts.  She died.  She was not nice.  They spoke about her at her funeral like she was a saint.  She wasn't.  

 

Dawn

 

 

Personally, I don't really care what people say about a person after they die, because maybe that person was really rotten to them and they're still very bitter about it, and they need to get it off their chest, so they blurt it out to someone. I don't think it's in particularly good taste to do it, though -- and I would certainly prefer not to be the one they choose to tell about it.

What I do have a problem with, however, is when they make the nasty comments in front of someone who is grieving over the loss of the deceased person. That's just mean. It goes way beyond not having respect for the dead; it's not having respect for someone who is sad and upset and who would probably prefer not to know about everything the deceased person has ever done to offend other people when he was alive.

 

[kiana]

What I do have a problem with, however, is when they make the nasty comments in front of someone who is grieving over the loss of the deceased person. That's just mean. It goes way beyond not having respect for the dead; it's not having respect for someone who is sad and upset and who would probably prefer not to know about everything the deceased person has ever done to offend other people when he was alive.

 

This.

 

I could see feeling compelled to tell them if the person is still alive and something could be dangerous.

[PrincessMommy]

This is how I feel too.

 

My mother was originally from the South and didn't believe you should speak ill of the dead, but it seemed to have some sort of superstition thing attached to it, which she said she didn't believe, but still seemed to permeate her view on the matter.

 

I tend to agree with Catwman.  Sometimes you have to get it out if the person really hurt you or did emotional damage.

 

My aunt was a bit nuts.  She died.  She was not nice.  They spoke about her at her funeral like she was a saint.  She wasn't.  

 

Dawn

 

This.

 

There has to be a fine line somewhere.  The same thing happened at the funeral of my uncle (not a nice person either).  One family member said at the end of the funeral "Wow, I would have liked to have known *that* person."  LOL.  We still chuckle about that today.

 

But, the people speaking at the funeral probably did like and respect him.  It was all very odd and made me wonder.

 

There's got to be a happy medium somewhere...especially as time goes by.  I think we should be able to speak gently but honestly about the dead, but not be rude our gratuitous about it.

[bettyandbob]

I don't think you should speak ill of the dead to immediate family/close associates.

 

But I don't think you have to whitewash past events because someone died. If such events come up and immediate family is not present, I do not see any reason not say "that was so messed up, and we need to do it differently now that we don't have that person in control." In that situation, I do not have a problem with another person saying "yes, that person was a PITA." and a brief rehashing a specific facts to bring the rest of the group up to speed and what we want to avoid. I am sure there are other appropriate places one can voice their dislike of things someone has done. I know, ideally, we forgive, but there are some situations that for some people were so painful there's no reason not to let them give voice to their pain. 

[kewb]

I was brought up to not speak ill of the dead.  But now I realize that sometimes the deceased was a rotten human being so I may something about how horrible they were to a friend over coffee.  I would never say something to someone mourning their loss.  That falls under the banner of "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all."

[happi duck]

I never thought about superstition or pretending someone was a saint. I never realized that is how some people think in terms of "not speaking ill..."

 

My rant was more about saying insignificant stuff directly to someone who is grieving. I'm just sad. I don't want to share personal info...what was said about my loved one was truly just mean and uncalled for.

[Tammyla]

Op, I'm really sorry you're hurting. :grouphug:   Grieving is so difficult and people should be more sympathetic.  You might tell them their words are hurting you and then walk away.  Again, I"m so sorry.

[Kathryn]

Without knowing specifics, I'll just say I'm sorry your feelings were hurt.

 

But, I don't agree at all with the whole "don't speak ill of the dead" idea. I think it's extremely hurtful to those who were mistreated by the dead person to pretend that those things never happened just because the person who did them is dead.

[kiana]

Without knowing specifics, I'll just say I'm sorry your feelings were hurt.

 

But, I don't agree at all with the whole "don't speak ill of the dead" idea. I think it's extremely hurtful to those who were mistreated by the dead person to pretend that those things never happened just because the person who did them is dead.

 

No, but I also don't see a reason for someone who was mistreated to start talking about it to someone who is still mourning their loss. I think it would be an excellent time to talk about other subjects.

 

There are many, many other people to talk to about it who never knew this person.

[Kathryn]

No, but I also don't see a reason for someone who was mistreated to start talking about it to someone who is still mourning their loss. I think it would be an excellent time to talk about other subjects.

 

There are many, many other people to talk to about it who never knew this person.

Since OP is being purposely vague, we have no way of knowing what was said or why. Perhaps the person is hurting and thought that OP could identify and commiserate. I think it's equally unkind to assume that the person speaking had nefarious intentions.

[Catwoman]

I never thought about superstition or pretending someone was a saint. I never realized that is how some people think in terms of "not speaking ill..."My rant was more about saying insignificant stuff directly to someone who is grieving. I'm just sad. I don't want to share personal info...what was said about my loved one was truly just mean and uncalled for.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I'm so sorry your feelings were hurt. :(

 

But if they do it again, don't let them have the last word. Tell them what you think of their terrible manners and say it's fine if they had issues with your loved one, but that you don't want to hear about it.

 

You don't have to tolerate that kind of cruelty. You just don't. :grouphug:

[SailorMom]

I recently re-read the Ender's Game books.  The second book is called Speaker for the Dead.  It addresses this in such an interesting way...  It would make more sense to read Ender's Game first - but not absolutely necessary.  I highly recommend it for anyone giving this thought.

I've lost both parents, all my grandparents, etc.  My parents died young (49, 50) and from alcohol.  My mom was never a very good mom, lol....  I did need to vent.  I did need to process.  But I didn't talk to anyone other than my DH about her because I figured we all needed to grieve and process in our own way.  It's been over 10 years now and I speak very openly about how things were.  I always preface it with, "None of us are perfect parents and mine made a lot of mistakes, but I do know that they loved me and struggled."  I also do not gossip about them.  There is a difference between talking honestly about the past and gossiping.

[gardenmom5]

honestly - it depends what their relationship with the deceased was.  if a deceased person was a jerk while alive - that doesn't mean people on the receiving end of their jerkiness aren't still hurting just because they are dead.  telling them "she's dead, get over it" does NOT help someone 'get over it'.

 

if *you* don't want to listen to it - just tell them you're not interested.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

 

 

There are many, many other people to talk to about it who never knew this person.

except - those are often immediate family members who also knew the person.  when you have been questioning your sanity because of the deceased person,  there is a lot about validation by venting to immediate family who know both.

I didn't speak to my brother about a particular relative - but he knew my very ill opinion of her.  He loved to tell me to "get over it" -  both of his ex-wives were just like the family witch so there was something there he liked - until he had to live with it in a different dynamic.  

 

I agree speaker for the dead is fabulous (xenocide and children of the mind are also very good.  I haven't read the 5th one.).  I can look at the other side with this relative,  for some things I can have compassion for her life, see that she was hard working, and how some negative experiences shaped her - but for others there was no mitigating circumstance for what she did.  

[bettyandbob]

I think where this gets to be sticky is if the person who is grieving and the person who is bad mouthing were both in a close relationship with the dead person. I don't know if that is the case with OP.

[Joanne]

{{{{OP}}}}

I've heard that phrase my entire life. I don't believe it as a blanket policy. The bereaved need to be safe to have a variety of feelings, and safe express them. I've seen clients heal and transform their grief journey when they are given *space* to say "bad things" about the dead.

What seems to be occuring in the OP's situation is dysfunction and resentment and drama.

[HRAAB]

My grandmother was not a nice person.  She was mean and nasty and treated my mom terribly.  Those are the facts.  But, I never said that to my mom.  She knew it very well, she lived it, but it was never spoken.  I think it could have been healing for my mom if she could have just said it, but speaking ill of the dead was taboo for my mom.  It felt good for me to be able to say my grandmother was a crazy, mean lady.

 

I would never say something negative about a deceased person to someone who is grieving their death, but then again you can take the whole 'never speak ill of dead' too far.

[JessReplanted]

I wish that my family spoke more about the deceased, and were willing to share the good and the bad.

I had an aunt who committed suicide when I was very young. Anytime I asked my dad how she died, he always

just said, "She was really sick."  It was my sister who told me that she actually killed herself. It is sad, but I would

like to know about her. Was she diagnosed as mentally ill?

 

I also have a grandfather who passed away when I was young, and I don't know anything about him.

I once heard that my aunt hated him and was glad that he was gone, but again, I have no idea why.

[Spryte]

I agree that processing one's pain, resentment or bitterness about a person's actions in life with a grieving person is in poor taste. And probably not productive for either person's healing.

 

OP, I'm sorry this happened to you. It was inappropriate.

 

I do think that after a loss, we need to be able to express and process all of our emotions, but doing so in a safe and accepting space is key. Our family has recently experienced a loss, and we have been careful about expressing our feelings about it for those reasons. The pain this person leaves behind is profound, and it's not because of her passing, but because of her unforgettable actions before her death. Her death does nothing to erase the deep scars she left on our family. We grieved for her long before she died. Now we are grieving again, not for her, but for the possibility of any future healing. It's sad. I won't say ugly things about her to her grieving family members, but I will always be honest and factual about what she did to our family and the wake of pain she left behind, when it is appropriate. I won't whitewash her memory for her. I'm not sure that doing so would be helpful to any of us whom she hurt so deeply. Again, though, sharing these thoughts with her grieving family members and friends ... No. I wouldn't do that. It would not help them process their pain, nor me mine.

 

I am sorry for your loss, OP, and that people were not more conscious of your feelings and grief.

[Laurie4b]

To speak ill of the dead person to someone close to the dead person is to violate a basic principle: The person who is hurting deserves your care not your cares . Here's a good depiction of this when dealing with any kind of crisis.  The link is to a short article with a great graphic: you offer comfort to those in greater pain than you are in. You seek comfort  from (or dump your pain on) those in less pain.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/07/opinion/la-oe-0407-silk-ring-theory-20130407

 

[bolt.]

In a grief situation, everything gets magnified. Grieving people need sensitivity from those around them... But unless "those around them" are genuinely unaffected by the death, reality is that nobody's going to actually be very good at being sensitive, tactful or good at going through the situation.

 

It's "the grieving effect" -- all the people who are involved become overtired, over sensitive, outspoken, impulsive, self-focused, and all if their natural flaws come out extra bright and shiny... Just when everyone needs each other to be at their best, the vast majority of people are actually at their worst. Nobody can really help it. Grief is just doing its own thing inside everyone, making everyone a bit crazy.

 

I think there should be a kind of kindness policy around grieving where we all say: "Boy, we were at our worst. Let's pretend that never happened. None if us really meant to be acting like that."

[happi duck]

To speak ill of the dead person to someone close to the dead person is to violate a basic principle: The person who is hurting deserves your care not your cares . Here's a good depiction of this when dealing with any kind of crisis.  The link is to a short article with a great graphic: you offer comfort to those in greater pain than you are in. You seek comfort  from (or dump your pain on) those in less pain.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/07/opinion/la-oe-0407-silk-ring-theory-20130407

Great article.

Thank you for understanding what I was ranting about.

(My situation is definitely people "dumping in"!)

[happi duck]

This was eye opening.

I see not speaking ill of the dead only from the perspective of not dumping on those who are grieving...never in terms of superstition and never in terms of denial.