How independent or dependent is your 5th and/or 7th graders?

[PinkInTheBlue]

The question is just that; how much do you instruct and assist and how much do you let them be independent at both or either of these ages? If you are allowing some independence, how do you do it? Checklists? Independence in some subjects and not in others? Which subjects? How do you stay aware of how well they are learning?

 

Thanks!

[dragons in the flower bed]

:lurk5:

[Amy in Orlando]

When my sons were in 5th grade, they still needed instruction and guidance for most subject. I did get them started with checklists and gave them the freedom to work on some subjects independently, with the condition that they must bring me the work as soon as they finished. We've always done science, history, and latin as a group, so those were not idependent.

 

By 7th grade, they are expected to work from a checklist and are very independent. They are required to show me their work at the end of the day - easier to catch problems and sloppy work! I do usually sit with each of them several times a week to talk about their work and discuss what they're reading. We continue to do history and Latin as a group, simply because it's easier for all of us.

[Tap]

In 5th grade, ds was independent for most lessons, but we talked about each lesson after the fact. He did read out of his science book to me while I made lunch but he did the review questions independently. I graded daily assignments on all subjects.

 

by 8th grade he was totally independent of me. I would ask him what he was studying periodically, but other wise he was on his own. He graded his own daily work and tests. Ds is extremely honest and will give himself an honest grade so I didn't have to worry about that. The only subject that still required an outsider was writing but he takes a class so I am not in control of that one. His heaviest subject was Omnibus and while he did the readings independent we did do a discussion after each one. Not for me to be the instructor, but for me just to check in. This was also one of his favorite times with me because we would get into some very interesting conversations.

 

The grades in between were shades of grey, between the two. Math was the easiest for him to be independent, then science, then Omnibus.

[Jean in Newcastle]

For 5th grade last year we gradually became more and more independent. I started by printing out a schedule for the day (from Microsoft Outlook). It has times on it but really the times are irrelevant - we use it more as a checklist. At first, I would spend time going over each lesson for about 5 min. with my ds to get him started. I might spend a bit longer if it was a totally new topic. As we got more into the year I had to less time going over the lesson since the basic routines of the subjects were learned. As he got done with a subject he would check it off and move to the next subject. If he needed me to go over a subject then he would check with me. If I was working with my dd and he was ready for oral drill in grammar or something else that required my attention, I would ask him to choose the next thing that was independent or I would ask him to do some reading until I was ready to work with him (this was sort of dependent on what time it was etc.) All the finished work was put next to me at the table. I corrected it as I had time.

[Peela]

Depends on the child. First child was independent much earlier, second child needs a lot of one on one still (at age 12). This morning he couldn't do a single percentage problem without me, and I kept walking away saying, you have just done 5 of these, try the next one on your own. Nooooo, he would cry, I can think much better when you're sitting right next to me. Grrrrr. It was a rough morning. But I think he must have been tired, he's not usually that bad.

Both can do a fair amount alone nowadays (usually!) but I break the day into independent work- together work (we do French and Latin together now, and history/literature read alouds)- independent work- because neither likes to just sit there are plod away all day alone. They both love to interact.

[fivetails]

My dd11 - grade 7 this fall - isn't very independent yet....not in the sense of taking a list of assignments and going off to do them anyway - she *is* in other ways, just not with her schoolwork yet. :)

 

I think part of it is that she's very social - and having been in ps for 5 years (last year was our first year hs'ing with her) she's used to having company while she works. ;)

 

She's also a very hands-on & active kid - so a lot of the work we do involves some sort of project... painting, drawing, modeling, crafting of other sorts...or playacting, making a video, etc... things like that. None of which she finds very exciting alone - and I don't blame her. ..We do that stuff together and it's much more fun. :D

[Pamela H in Texas]

Depends on the child.

 

Here too....my daughter are 4 was more independent than my son was at 10. My daughter really stayed on top of her things self motivated and I really had very little to do outside of normal discussion and such that any good parent would be involved in. We have, for years, done meetings every few weeks with otherwise me just here for a safety net. My son until he started k12, was extremely dependent on me. We tried checklists and that helped, but he just needed more contact, instruction, guidance, "being there." With K12, he has a lot of that in the program and now I can step back a little, not quite as much as I'd hope for an 8th grader though.

 

I always feel like I'm misrepresenting independence though. I certainly don't just expect my kids to use the materials, self-teach everything, and come to me only when there is a problem. That sometimes DOES happen, but there is just a different dynamic around here. I personally don't believe in the spoonfeeding like jr highs and high schools do, but I don't believe in complete self-education for preteens and teens either. I think discussion, bouncing ideas, experiments, etc are things that are better done in groups and that "two heads are better than one" for some things.

 

I'm not making sense again. I think it just looks so natural and flowing here that it's hard to articulate (not to mention writing isn't my thing).

[lwilliams1922]

we started hs'ing last spring.

 

I'm finding that it's not the teaching of my dd that is the issue.

 

She is very bright. I spend the majority of my time guiding her to stay on task, carefully read instructions, check for completion of all assignments.

 

She's not even close to being independent yet. But i am so glad i have the opportunity to realize and help her with responsibility.

 

At times it's frustrating because she is so bright. In 4 years I hope to have instilled the skills she needs for college.

[Quiver0f10]

My kids are usually independent by 5th grade in most subjects, but they do have a checklist to make sure it all gets done.

[Bambam]

My dd was working pretty much independently except for math instruction, spelling tests, and Plutarch's Lives in 4th grade. She still had to narrate or answer questions about various subjects randomly. I look for programs that are self-teaching rather than teacher dependent.

 

She is starting 5th grade and her independence continues. She is a strong reader and prefers to read herself. Her narrating and conversation proves she is understanding the material. She wants to be responsible and do her schooling herself.

 

I provide a schedule similiar to Sonlight each week for her. I do plan each day out for her. In the future, I think I will be able to give her weekly assignments and let her plan out her week herself. Probably not anytime soon though!

[angela in ohio]

My dd will be 5th and 7th next year. I instruct in almost everything, and I plan to continue. They complete their assignments on their own only after I have taught the concept completelyand we have thoroughly discussed it. When they take outside classes, it is the same set-up: the teacher teaches when they are together, and they are responsible for everything outside of class themselves (I don't have to remind them.)

 

They spend all of their free time learning *really* independently (what they want to learn, not what I want them to learn.) I think that is a more true form of forming a lifetime of independent learning. I am providing them a strong foundation, and they are learning to love seeking out things they they find interesting. Those two will merge (already are merging, I should say,) and they will be amazing learners for life.

 

I have done a lot of research on teaching methods, and direct instruction is very valuable, imho. I think basic skills especially, such as math and writing, are too important to have them do on their own. (Was it Ellie, or Brenda, here who used to say that even college students have a professor?)

 

Other parents have different methods, but I feel passionately that this is the best for my dc. :)

[Pamela H in Texas]

Was it Ellie, or Brenda, here who used to say that even college students have a professor?

 

Well I guess what that professor does depends on the course though. And never is a college professor quite as spoonfeeding as the average high school teacher, something many college students struggle with.

 

I do feel direct instruction is necessary but I do think kids need a GREAT deal more independence than the average high schooler is capable of due to not exercising those "independence muscles."

 

I think BALANCE is the word I'm really looking for. :) That is why I said in my post how hard it was for me to articulate what goes on here in terms of a great deal of independence and yet I agree that totally independent/self-teaching isn't best.

 

Anyway, so I'm just trying to clarify my post because I do think your post brings up something important :)

[TravelingChris]

It very much depends on the child. Both of my olders were relatively independent by fifth grade. I thought some subjects (math lessons always) but they did reading and work by themselves. I was available for help and I assigned. Those kids are both introverts. Not so for my youngest, an extrovert. After lots of struggles last year when she was in fifth, she finally is able to do some work on her own. SHe doesn;t like to. I am having her do Academy and co-op classes for most subjects this year as a result. She will be doing English, History, Geography, Drawing, Music, Speech, Sewing, and PE with others. I will continue doing math (which she mostly does on her own), science (together), grammar and spelling work, and Spanish (partly with me, partly by herself).

[PinkInTheBlue]

Thank you all! I really learned a lot and am surprised to learn at how young these guys can handle so much on their own. Children are amazing, huh? :)

 

I have another question that I hope some of you and some new responders might can clarify. Concerning not spoon feeding jr high and high schoolers the way it's done in public schools, what do you mean? My only experience has been public schools, so I'm not sure where the line goes from spoon feeding to encouraging independent education. :) What would you define as spoon feeding and, from that, how would you like to see public schools educate so that you would not consider them spoon fed?

 

I'd really love to know so I can decide what direction I want to start heading for these guys. It's getting more and more tough to teach with a 2yr old in the house and once we get to Atlanta I'm hiring a Mommy's Helper but 'til then... :)

 

Thanks!

[PinkInTheBlue]

One bump in case anyone can offer any thoughts. :)

[angela in ohio]

Well I guess what that professor does depends on the course though. And never is a college professor quite as spoonfeeding as the average high school teacher, something many college students struggle with.

 

I do feel direct instruction is necessary but I do think kids need a GREAT deal more independence than the average high schooler is capable of due to not exercising those "independence muscles."

 

I think BALANCE is the word I'm really looking for. :) That is why I said in my post how hard it was for me to articulate what goes on here in terms of a great deal of independence and yet I agree that totally independent/self-teaching isn't best.

 

Anyway, so I'm just trying to clarify my post because I do think your post brings up something important :)

 

I have a feeling things look pretty similar in our homes. :) Balance is our goal, too. I think it all comes down to who is responsible for learning the material. I present it, dc are responsible and held accountable for learning it, that is not my job.

 

OP, I really try to model on a college class. I lecture/discuss/teach and then they are responsible for the follow-up. Spoonfeeding to me is when they have a bunch of fill-in the blank-walk-me-through-it material, then they get a "study sheet" for the test, the teacher reminds them repeatedly what to work on, etc. My dc each know how they learn best. For example, oldest dd know that she needs written repetition to learn. So she writes things out over and over to be ready for a test.

[Danestress]

I think my children are capable of more independence. But I have a hard time letting go. I do teach math and Latin. I guess I could have moved to TT or something for math so they could do that alone, but I think staying involved is pretty justified there.

 

With other topics, I SO enjoy the learning process myself. I still find myself wanting to curl up on the sofa and read history and science with them, because I always learn a lot myself.

 

I know I need to let them just read and outline some, and become more self-teaching, but I need to really work on that.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

I give him checklists and then follow up. If I follow up, the work gets done. If I get lazy about it, so does he.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

My 5th grade ds isn't very independent yet. I still have to sit with him through most subjects, and we do many things orally.

 

My 7th grade, dd, is much more independent. I will have checklists for her this year, for the first time. I plan to spend an hour with her in the morning, going over all her new material in all subjects (except the ones we all do together, like history), and then let her loose for the day to do her work independently. Her temperament lends itself well to this arrangement, so I'm not too worried. I think it will go well.

[Sasharowan]

My 7th grader mostly works independently from a checklist. There are several new curriculum that we are using that he is getting used to and needs more help than I expect he will in a few months. He also comes to me with questions whenever he needs to. Right now, we use a daily checklist, whole week given on Mon. In other words, I break the work up by day, but give him the entire week at a time and he chooses the order he does his work thoughout the day. If he doesn't have a book that he is reading on his own, he will often save his assigned reading for bedtime reading. I gave him a sheet today listing the week's work by subject and asked him if he was ready to learn to manage his time himself. He is currently thinking about it.

[Amy in Orlando]

Thank you all! I really learned a lot and am surprised to learn at how young these guys can handle so much on their own. Children are amazing, huh? :)

 

I have another question that I hope some of you and some new responders might can clarify. Concerning not spoon feeding jr high and high schoolers the way it's done in public schools, what do you mean? My only experience has been public schools, so I'm not sure where the line goes from spoon feeding to encouraging independent education. :) What would you define as spoon feeding and, from that, how would you like to see public schools educate so that you would not consider them spoon fed?

 

I'd really love to know so I can decide what direction I want to start heading for these guys. It's getting more and more tough to teach with a 2yr old in the house and once we get to Atlanta I'm hiring a Mommy's Helper but 'til then... :)

 

Thanks!

 

I'm not sure if my answer is what you're looking for, but I'll give it a shot. By NOT spoonfeeding, I am willing to let them struggle with difficult reading or a tough concept for far longer on their own than I would when they were in the grammar stage. I'll often answer their questions with another question to see if that will get them thinking in a different direction.

 

Another thing that is important to me is that they learn to FIND answers. I encourage them to use many resources until they get an answer that makes sense. I want them to be able to learn to learn. A lot of times, it's easier and/or faster for me just to give them an answer, but in the long run, it doesn't help them.

 

Finally, I am open to debating ideas with them, particularly with literature and history. With those subjects there are more than one acceptable answer. If they can back up their answer in a rational way, I'll accept it, even if it wasn't what I was anticipating. If they're arguing just to argue or just giving me ridiculous answers that are not backed up by anything solid, I send them back to start over.

[Jenny in Florida]

Well, my son will be 5th grade age this year, and I assume we'll continue more or less as we did last year.

 

I write up lesson plans for each week of the school year that show all of his assignments for the full week. [Check here for a sample of last year's plans: http://tweakedacademy.blogspot.com/2007/07/how-do-you-write-your-lesson-plans.html ] At the beginning of each week, we go over the list together and come up with a rough plan of how much of each thing he'll do each day. He checks in with me as he finishes things so I can write them in my log and check to make sure he's following through.

 

Most days, he does math first. I sit with him and go over the lesson and the sample questions. Then he's on his own to do the assignment. If he has questions, he asks me, but I try to encourage him to do as much as he can on his own, since he retains the concepts much better that way.

 

We also do much of his English text together, taking turns reading aloud the information and doing the exercises orally. This year, we'll be starting Classical Writing, and I anticipate I'll be pretty involved in guiding him through analysing the samples and tying it in with the week's grammar lessons. He'll be expected to do the actual writing on his own, submitting a first draft for me to correct, then handing in a clean final draft of each assignment.

 

He's been doing Latin mostly independently(Minimus Secundus/Learning Latin Through Mythology), except that he reads me the picture stories once he finishes translating them. He's starting Latin Prep this year, though, and since the format is similar to English Prep, I anticipate being more involved.

 

He does all of his reading independently for most subjects, then comes and gives me a quick re-cap so I can check that he's getting what he's reading and absorbing the significant points. Next year, he'll have chunks of reading for math, science and history/literature.

 

He does Spanish independently. When there's written work, I grade it and, when necessary, give it back to him for corrections. I expect he'll do Greek (Greek Alphabet Code Cracker/Hey Andrew Level 2) pretty much on his own, too.

 

He'll be doing online classes for art and geography, so I don't anticipate a lot of involvement with those other than answering questions now and then.

 

I'm hoping he'll do at least one simple science project per week. Obviously, I'll need to be involved in gathering supplies and making sure he knows what he's doing. But he'll do the actual hands-on parts himself, unless he just wants comany.

 

He's pretty independent and seems to prefer it that way. He likes to have me around to talk to, but does best if the majority of his work is manageable more or less on his own.

[Peela]

I have another question that I hope some of you and some new responders might can clarify. Concerning not spoon feeding jr high and high schoolers the way it's done in public schools, what do you mean? My only experience has been public schools, so I'm not sure where the line goes from spoon feeding to encouraging independent education. :) What would you define as spoon feeding and, from that, how would you like to see public schools educate so that you would not consider them spoon fed?

 

 

I have been reading a lot of Charlotte Mason stuff lately. She was radical in her time- and now even- for saying that children should be reading lots of books, real living books by authors who are passionate about their subjects. Reading and digesting them, and making connetions themselves. She said children were capable of doing that. And she saw the way schools taught as taking great ideas and breaking them down, pre-digesting them and making them bland and unpalatable, boring facts to be memorised or understood. I think she had a really good point!

 

Recently I was clearing my shelves and I skimmed through some highschool science and history textbooks I had. They were full of pictures and many snippets of information in boxes, then comprehension questions.Very visually exciting and appealing. I realised how far we have strayed from the highschool way of doing things. We read good books- usually without pictures- and we discuss them. We read LOTS of them- dozens each year. I was also looking at an online highschool here in Australia and seeing what they did for English- 2 novels in the whole year. And a movie. No books for history, just textbooks.

 

So in the context of my recent musings, I would say highschool spoonfeeds kids snippets of information, and jazzes it up with colour and lots of visuals, and nags children to complete their work- because they think kids are too stupid to learn directly from the experts who have written passionately about their subject. Also, its really hard to assign a good book and then test on it. Much easier to assign snippets of information followed by questions.

 

I read some books with my kids, and we discuss them and sometimes write about them or outline chapters. And other books they attack completely on their own. So there is no question of spoonfeeding- there is balance. When we work together there is also the issue of them seeing that *I* get excited and interested in what we are learning, *I* am learning too. We are learning together.

 

I don't know if that anywhere near answers your question. Every family is going to find their own way. I have a friend whose girls have worked almost completely independently for years because she has regular migraines, and she needs them to be able to continue even when she is down for a couple of days. And they are very bright girls who handle the responsibility well. That's very different from how we do things, where I like to discuss a lot then send the kids off to do some independent work.

[Mrs Mungo]

For us it depends upon the subjects. We have checklists but they do subjects they enjoy quickly and without much help. With subjects they enjoy less they need more help and I have to push them more.