One easy thing every white person could do to make the world a better place

[SKL]

FTR, I have also had black men try sh!t with me and one tried to rape my mother (but she beat him off, despite being 8.5 mos pregnant).  I am not afraid of black men.  But, I have also had a lot of good experiences with black men, and my bad experiences were relatively not that traumatic.  [For example, being inappropriately touched in a fast food place, having a guy approach me when alone and try to get me into an alley (he ran off when he saw a white guy walking toward us).  The second one did leave me shaken and could have gotten really bad, but in the end I got away.  I do think that makes a difference.]

 

You have a right to your opinion.  I'm just sharing some people's reactions.  Notice that all three of the people I mentioned didn't have a lot of good experiences with blacks to counter the one or two really bad ones.  As I mentioned in reply to another poster, a white woman raped by a white man is likely to have enough good experience with other white men to balance that out.  Though some do end up being afraid of men in general.

[PeacefulChaos]

The point of the video, and what people are saying about white privilege, is that yes, all people need to work against racism. But some people, because of what is called white privilege, have more power to accomplish things. 

 

We should all fight against poverty. But those with more resources/contacts/etc will be more effective on a grand scale. We all can give change to the homeless guy on the street corner, and we all should. But when it comes to shaping policy those who are in political power have more ability to make lasting change. Not a particularly great analogy ( teethign baby, no sleep , very little coffee), but hopefully the idea comes across. No one is saying that we should all, white/black/brown/red/purple fight against racism. Just that those who have more power in society should use that power to accomplish things, rather than pretend they don't have that power. Does that make sense?

 

Ugh...I'm on my iPad so I can't reply the way I want to... Anyway, regarding those of us with white privilege having more power to accomplish things, what are some things we can do?

I'm being totally serious here, not snarky. I know there is the OP - jumping in when we see racism in action. But we may never have a chance to do that. So what are some ideas?

 

You're absolutely right. In this scenario, a woman either becomes like one of the guys, and sucks it up where that distorts her and harms her, or she'll be accused of playing the "feminist" card and be unheard.

 

But what would happen if there was a man or a couple in that same workplace who understood that it was a guys' world and that everyone was playing by guy rules, even if some more typically female approaches to life might have some value?  What difference would it make if that man or couple of them helped the others to see by explaining things, pointing out their own privilege as men in that workplace and helping other guys to get it? What if they themselves made an effort to bridge the gap between practices ways of communicating that felt natural and comfortable to men and those that felt natural and comfortable to women? What if the some men called out outright discrimination happening?

 

I have been in workplaces where this happened and where it didn't. I've always been thankful for men who "got it" who were willing to be allies and not just go about their business  expecting women to conform to doing things 100% their way because it worked for the guys.

  

While I totally, 100% agree with what you are saying, I feel like with the situation of male/female coworkers there is a clear solution. I guess that, for me, I don't see how to take that and turn it into using my white privilege to help fight against racism. I mean, I'm a stay at home, homeschooling mom who just doesn't have those kinds of opportunities on any sort of regular basis. I have a part time job where I pretty much work by myself (receptionist)...I attend a church that consists of multiple races but have never seen anyone treated differently because of their race (and they better not, at a church of all places - that should be the first place to really embrace all races and bring them together!)... So I just don't see an obvious way that I can take your story and make it relevant to me in this conversation.

Yes, I agree with you on all of the above.  Thank you.  :)

 

 

 

Here's something that doesn't make sense to me about the concept of white privilege. I'm quoting ktgrok, but could have quoted any number of people who are saying the same thing.

 

"White privilege doesn't mean someone did something wrong."  That may be true for individual encounters between a white person and a person of color, but what keeps white privilege going?  It can't exist in a vacuum.  Something is happening to keep white privilege alive - otherwise it would be going away.  Who or what is responsible?

 

"No "wrongness" implied." To continue the above inquiry, I think most people would answer "who is responsible for keeping white privilege going?" with "white people".  It's the dominant white population segment in certain parts of the world that presumably continues to extend those privileges to itself.  After all, it wouldn't make sense to say that non-white people are actively sustaining white privilege.  The "implied wrongness" is that white people are sustaining white privilege and/or not doing enough to eradicate it.

  

Won't white privilege automatically exist - in the non harmful ways - no matter what, as long as whites are the predominant race in the us? I'm talking things like more white actors on tv, etc (because that is understandable, as a representation if the nation as a whole?) or the fact that the country was founded by whites, etc. so I think to say, 'what perpetuates white privilege?' Doesn't make all that much sense, because there will be white privilege as long as there are more whites, right?

Remember, I'm talking the non harmful white privilege stuff here. Not any ideas that whites a 'treated better' - that definitely should stop.

It is speaking up when bias (good or bad), stereotyping or discrimination is present.  Its actively talking about race in a positive way that includes actually talking about race (not color blindness).  It is teaching our children to question those that show bias, stereotyping, or discrimination in a respectful way including in literature.  It is patronizing those companies that show that they are working toward equity like the bandaid company that has multiple flesh colored bandaids, or going to see the movies/tv/music that shows a minority member in a nonstereotypical way ie Tiana, Doc, Darius Grey (assuming you engage in watching movies/tv/music of the majority that has similar rating topics ect).  

 

It is talking about those people who have and are working for change of all racial groups including white anti-racists.  Have books, movies, music, pictures, art in your home that portray a variety of racial groups.  Look at the toys that you have and ensure that your children have baby dolls/toys that represent all racial groups.  

 

We have a unique power in that we are already outside the mainstream by homeschooling.  We get to have more power over what our children see, read and learn.  That means we can ensure that the things that are children are reading are teaching the value of all humans...we can read things that challenge them regarding race and have discussions about race.  When we read books that use the n word (which is present in classic literature) we can talk about the time it was written and how everything has changed and what we can continue to do to change it.  Our children are going into a US in which the majority of babies born will be nonwhite!  Many of us with little ones will be one of the first generations in which their parents have been raised in a world in which equity based on race it law bound.  They will have been raised seeing a black man as president (regardless of political leaning this is an amazing thing for black kids).  They may be able to reach more fully the dream of MLKJ than we have and we have the opportunity to help them reach that. :)

You know, I'm glad you said something about the literature - I have just been reading captains courageous, and the n word is in that what seems to be a number of times (I've only gotten through the first couple of chapters). I was struggling a bit with the decision of whether or not to let link read it, because of that, because on one hand, he will be exposed to it at one point or another, and on the other, I don't necessarily want the word to become a part of his knowledge, if that makes sense. I know that's naive of me lol... But I had already kind of been leaning toward going ahead with letting him read it, and this post affirmed that. Thanks!

 

I know my opinion has been evolving over the course of this thread, but I just wanted to share with you something I thought of last night...

Several years ago, another lady - I believe it was at church - was taking about how her daughter was in Walmart and wondered why there were no baby dolls that looked like her, and she really really wanted one that looked like her! At the time, I thought, 'really lady? You are going to bring race into this? A baby doll is a baby doll - who cares what color it is? Who cares if the baby doll looks like them or not? I mean, it isn't like the ugly little white dolls look like any white kids I've seen...' I now realize that if I hadn't had the privilege of always having the choice to get a doll that looked 'like me', I probably wouldn't have felt that way. To me, though, the thinking was so foreign - a doll was a doll, you know? But I'd never been in the position they were in. (Note: I never was a girl who liked baby dolls, anyway, so I don't know what was available at the time lol... But you get my point).

[PeacefulChaos]

Oh, and another thought - is it weird for me to tell a black woman that I think her hair is absolutely gorgeous when she leaves it natural? Or is that something that is taboo for me to say?

Honestly asking. :P

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh, and another thought - is it weird for me to tell a black woman that I think her hair is absolutely gorgeous when she leaves it natural? Or is that something that is taboo for me to say?

Honestly asking. :P

I would just say, "I love your hair! I think it is gorgeous!"

 

As a curly headed person, I appreciate those comments because there is SO SO much pressure to remove the curl.

[SKL]

Peacefulchaos, for future reference re dolls of color, there are places online that specialize in this.  I have bought many nice ones for my daughters on dollslikeme.com.  (However, the last time I ordered from them, they screwed up my order and never fixed it, so I don't buy there any more.)  I am sure there are others because there is a big market for dolls of color, including mixed race dolls.  The same sites offer many multicultural books, toys, DVDs, etc.  Even if you don't buy from there, it can give you (or your friends) some good ideas for things to buy on, say, Amazon.com.  :)

[SKL]

Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

 

Scroll down to see some of the ways in which white privilege can manifest, even if you don't have class or gender privilege. In other words, even if you're a working class white woman, some of these things will apply to you.

 

Well first of all, on that list the majority of items are really the absence of discrimination (the benchmark that should apply to everyone), or outdated / regional and hence not applicable to many /most of us, or just outright wrong to want or use (getting away with stuff nobody should get away with).  I also don't agree with the underlying implication that there are no negative stereotypes about whites.

 

Second, the list assumes that if you're nonwhite and dealing with a white person, you're at a disadvantage.  I don't accept that in general.  Why should it be considered a privilege if I say "I want to talk to the manager" and the manager is my same color?  What if the manager was some other color, should that matter?  No, in my opinion.

 

This was written by a white woman and thus has very limited credibility.  I'm guessing that if a woman of color wrote it from scratch (having never seen this type of article/discussion before), it would look different.

 

Raising a couple of brown daughters, I refuse to teach them that they are screwed because no matter what they do, their brown skin will do them in.  There are too many strong woman of color who treat racism/sexism as a bump in a road, not a roadblock.  I happen to be business partner to one of them.  High-level white people are proud to say they have a connection with her.  She could kick my a$$ any day of the week.  She does not worry that everything she does wrong is going to be attributed to her race and bla bla bla.  Who has time for that?  Who cares what stupid people think anyway?  I guess if your life focus is "women's studies" in the university environment, that might be worth your time.

[Mrs Mungo]

Are you suggesting that people,who work in the Liberal Arts (like our benefactor, Susan Wise Bauer, a college professor) are wasting their time or their time, energy or focus isn't as important of that as a lawyer?

[SKL]

Are you suggesting that people,who work in the Liberal Arts (like our benefactor, Susan Wise Bauer, a college professor) are wasting their time or their time, energy or focus isn't as important of that as a lawyer?

 

I'm suggesting that the person who wrote that list was over-thinking.

 

BTW I've taught college (well, grad school) too.  I'm quite sure you understood perfectly well what I was saying.

 

[*Michelle*]

Some of those strike me as very odd.  "If the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race."  How does the IRS computer know what race you are?  I don't remember filling out race on my tax return. "I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider."  Uh, what?  I don't want to get political, but how exactly have Tea Party people been portrayed in the media?  "I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color."  This is a privilege?  "I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair."  Has this person been to a "music shop," supermarket, or salon lately?

 

ETA:  Ah, I see the paper was published in 1988.  Well, it's good to know that 25 years later, quite a few things on her list are really not applicable.

[ktgrok]

 

Ugh...I'm on my iPad so I can't reply the way I want to... Anyway, regarding those of us with white privilege having more power to accomplish things, what are some things we can do?

I'm being totally serious here, not snarky. I know there is the OP - jumping in when we see racism in action. But we may never have a chance to do that. So what are some ideas?

   

 

  

Won't white privilege automatically exist - in the non harmful ways - no matter what, as long as whites are the predominant race in the us? I'm talking things like more white actors on tv, etc (because that is understandable, as a representation if the nation as a whole?) or the fact that the country was founded by whites, etc. so I think to say, 'what perpetuates white privilege?' Doesn't make all that much sense, because there will be white privilege as long as there are more whites, right?

 

 

Two thoughts. One, as for what we can do, we can open our eyes and search out injustice, or at least be more aware of it. When you hear about a proposed law for instance, stop to think of how it will impact those of other races before you decide which way to vote. A case in point, and I don't want to debate it here as it is political, would be in my area they changed the early voting days. Not a big deal, except those early voting days were the days most people of color voted. So it impacts them more, and one has to really look at that hard. Maybe the pros outweight the cons, but one has to look at it from various perspectives rather than just "well, doesn't effect me, I can vote whenever". Another example is the racial bias in sentencing...maybe read up and educate yourself on issues like that. 

 

As for the TV thing....it isn't that there are more whites than blacks, which makes sense based on the population. It is that people want to see a representation that is similar to the representation in the general populace, AND to see people of color in non sterotypcial roles. There are some, but it could be better. Does that make sense? And with bandaids, there are now more children of color in the US than white children...and yet the bandaids are still white :)

 

So I think the best first step for everyone is to educate themselves, read on it. Because as white people we won't have it thrust in our faces. We have to seek out information. You mentioned Church. Maybe forming some kind of panel or group to explore racial issues in the church, and find out if those of color feel included fully, or if they do have issues they are concerned about. 

 

Just some thoughts...your post was lovely and nice to see. 

[Parrothead]

I'm guessing this somehow comes back around to blaming white people?

No, not really. Or more like blaming those old white men. And a few old white women. This problem is more about power than race. It is a hot topic banned from this board so I can't say more.

[MyThreeSons]

White privilege would be black people having to get up and stand or move to the back of the bus so a white person could sit in the better seat.  Or else.

No -- that would be racial discrimination. And that would be illegal.

 

My 18yos and I were talking about this yesterday. He recognizes that he has "beard privilege". Due to some incredible facial hair, he is not generally recognized as being as young as he is. (We still laugh about the time a waitress asked him if he wanted a beer to go with his sandwich when he was 16yo -- a full five years before it would have legal.) Around here, there are several places that have curfew-type rules in effect, banning unaccompanied minors after a certain hour. The police downtown and the mall security guards routinely stop young adults to check identification. They don't even give ds a second look -- he is assumed to be old enough. He has done nothing to deserve this preferential treatment other than to look like he does. He does not feel guilty about it -- because he does not take advantage and actually break the rules. When he realizes the hour has passed, he either reconnects with me or leaves. On the other hand, he fully recognizes that the underlying assumption behind the rules is unfair -- it assumes that young people cannot be trusted to behave themselves.

[Parrothead]

As for the TV thing....it isn't that there are more whites than blacks, which makes sense based on the population. It is that people want to see a representation that is similar to the representation in the general populace, AND to see people of color in non sterotypcial roles. There are some, but it could be better. Does that make sense? And with bandaids, there are now more children of color in the US than white children...and yet the bandaids are still white :)

 

I see white band aids and bandages and gauze more as a cleanliness thing than a race thing. Dirt, blood, pus, and other signs of injury and infection are usually not white. Having white bandages just seems sensible to me. I wouldn't want a peach bandage either, for the same reason.

 

And before someone twists my words, no, I do not think white people are cleaner. Nor do I think of people of color as diseased and infected.

[MyThreeSons]

When I was in high school, one of my teachers had me read the book "Black Like Me." It had a tremendous impact on my life. Although I don't believe it used the term white privilege, it certainly introduced that concept to me.

 

A very simplified summary: a white author spends some time in New Orleans, exploring the city. He then uses a chemical substance to make himself appear to be black. He shaves his head and dyes his bald head dark. He then goes back into New Orleans, to the same places where he was welcomed as white man, and experiences life from the perspective of a black man. It was truly eye-opening to me!

 

I have recently begun re-reading it. I can already hear the nay-sayers here say, "But that was then. It's not like that now." I would so love to see someone do something similar today. While I'm sure the results would be somewhat different -- the discrimination would be more subtle, for instance -- I have no doubts that there would still be a profound difference in the white and black experiences.

[SKL]

People keep mentioning band-aids.  Kid band-aids now come in all kinds of cool colors and patterns.  My kids are browner than many "black" people and yet they have never felt sad about the color of their band-aids.

 

Personally I think it sounds ignorant to suggest there should be flesh-colored band-aids for everyone.  Have you noticed how many skin tones there are?

 

Instead there are options where the sticky part is translucent, for people who don't want their band-aid to get a lot of attention, and there are options that resemble nobody's skin color, for kids who want to show off their band-aids.  I think that is quite reasonable.

[Murphy101]

People keep mentioning band-aids. Kid band-aids now come in all kinds of cool colors and patterns. My kids are browner than many "black" people and yet they have never felt sad about the color of their band-aids.

 

Personally I think it sounds ignorant to suggest there should be flesh-colored band-aids for everyone. Have you noticed how many skin tones there are?

 

Instead there are options where the sticky part is translucent, for people who don't want their band-aid to get a lot of attention, and there are options that resemble nobody's skin color, for kids who want to show off their band-aids. I think that is quite reasonable.

I've been confused reading it because I have never seen a white band-aid before. We have four or five different boxes and they are all various shades of brown (all significantly darker than me and I'm quite tanned from swimming daily) or clear.

 

Do they mean bandages like gauze and tape wrapping? That's white because it's easier to see that's it is clean or what color the wound is seeping. It has nothing to do with the skin color of people.

[ktgrok]

I see white band aids and bandages and gauze more as a cleanliness thing than a race thing. Dirt, blood, pus, and other signs of injury and infection are usually not white. Having white bandages just seems sensible to me. I wouldn't want a peach bandage either, for the same reason.

 

And before someone twists my words, no, I do not think white people are cleaner. Nor do I think of people of color as diseased and infected.

 

I shouldn't have said white. What I meant was the flesh tone of white people...beige. You know, like bandaids? They are tan, to partially blend in with the skin tone of most caucasians to some extent. 

[Murphy101]

I shouldn't have said white. What I meant was the flesh tone of white people...beige. You know, like bandaids? They are tan, to partially blend in with the skin tone of most caucasians to some extent.

Well I'm still stumped about the whole racist bandaid aids thing because none of the boxes I've seen blend in with any white people I know, except for the clear band aids. They are considerably darker. I would have to be a LOT more tanned to be nearly beige enough. They aren't beige. They are brown. If anything I think they would blend very well with the typically darker Asian or Latino skin or a lighter black person. *shrugs*

[nmoira]

Well first of all, on that list the majority of items are really the absence of discrimination

 

Yes! That is precisely the point. You can't have absence of discrimination without discrimination because they are two sides of the same coin: relative advantage and relative disadvantage. In this case we're talking about race. Neither is absolute. Neither is the only factor. If you prefer to call it systemic discrimination instead of white privilege, be my guest. 

 

Whether or not you quibble with some items on the list, you are still left with a sizable (and incomplete) list.

 

Well done. :)

[nmoira]

Well I'm still stumped about the whole racist bandaid aids thing because none of the boxes I've seen blend in with any white people I know, except for the clear band aids. They are considerably darker. I would have to be a LOT more tanned to be nearly beige enough. They aren't beige. They are brown. If anything I think they would blend very well with the typically darker Asian or Latino skin or a lighter black person. *shrugs*

 

Part of the problem is the designation "flesh coloured": crayons, paints, band-aids, etc. There has certainly been a move away from this during my lifetime.

 

FWIW, the Whole Foods down the street sells only lighter shade band-aids.

[KarenNC]

FYI, it is possible to find multicultural construction paper, crayons, colored pencils, etc in a range of skin tones if one looks for them. We sought them out when my daughter was young and for our church religious education craft supplies (I would also look at these for co-op art activities if I were leading a co-op craft class).

 

Crayola makes markers, crayons, paint, and colored pencils. We found multicultural packs of construction paper, modeling clay, clothespins for clothespin dolls, and blank paper dolls (the ones shaped like gingerbread men) at Education Express (though we did have to ask them for some items, as they were online but not in the store). Check your local teacher supply store. Asking your local general retail store (Toys R Us, Walmart, etc) for this kind of material if they don't stock it can help make them aware there is a market for them. Walmart, for example, has some online, and, if not in the store, can be ordered for in-store pickup. This has the side benefit of at least some clerks being exposed to the fact that the items exist.

 

 

[*Michelle*]

Amazon carries the Crayola multicultural line. 

 

Markers

 

Crayons

 

Paint

 

Pencils

 

There are also Urban Armour bandages in light, medium, and dark.

[Parrothead]

FYI, it is possible to find multicultural construction paper, crayons, colored pencils, etc in a range of skin tones if one looks for them. We sought them out when my daughter was young and for our church religious education craft supplies (I would also look at these for co-op art activities if I were leading a co-op craft class).

 

Crayola makes markers, crayons, paint, and colored pencils. We found multicultural packs of construction paper, modeling clay, clothespins for clothespin dolls, and blank paper dolls (the ones shaped like gingerbread men) at Education Express (though we did have to ask them for some items, as they were online but not in the store). Check your local teacher supply store. Asking your local general retail store (Toys R Us, Walmart, etc) for this kind of material if they don't stock it can help make them aware there is a market for them. Walmart, for example, has some online, and, if not in the store, can be ordered for in-store pickup. This has the side benefit of at least some clerks being exposed to the fact that the items exist.

:iagree:

 

I've seen multiracial dolls, construction paper, crayons, paints and markers. One doesn't even need to special order it. Just go to michaels or a c moores.

 

While it is possible for companies to make more choices, stores are limited to the amount of stock they can display. Displaying these things for every skin tone there is would be cost prohibitive. But I don't see why the big 3 or 4 (peach, light brown, brown and very dark brown) couldn't be displayed in multiracial areas.

 

Here where I live there isn't a lot of call for multiracial stuff. I think we have 1black family, one mixed family and 2 families if Asian descent. I don't think it is quite fair that these families would have to order this kind of stuff online, but there is a lot of stuff we as a community have to order online due to lack of availability.

[SKL]

Here where I live there isn't a lot of call for multiracial stuff. I think we have 1black family, one mixed family and 2 families if Asian descent. I don't think it is quite fair that these families would have to order this kind of stuff online, but there is a lot of stuff we as a community have to order online due to lack of availability.

 

I find online shopping a million times more convenient than going to stores.  It's how I do most of my shopping for non-food and even some food items.  That's how you really find what you're looking for instead of having to settle for what the local "buyers" thought would be popular.  :P

 

I'm just really thankful that there is a great variety of stuff online and very convenient to acquire.

 

[marbel]

:iagree:

 

I've seen multiracial dolls, construction paper, crayons, paints and markers. One doesn't even need to special order it. Just go to michaels or a c moores.

 

While it is possible for companies to make more choices, stores are limited to the amount of stock they can display. Displaying these things for every skin tone there is would be cost prohibitive. But I don't see why the big 3 or 4 (peach, light brown, brown and very dark brown) couldn't be displayed in multiracial areas.

 

Here where I live there isn't a lot of call for multiracial stuff. I think we have 1black family, one mixed family and 2 families if Asian descent. I don't think it is quite fair that these families would have to order this kind of stuff online, but there is a lot of stuff we as a community have to order online due to lack of availability.

 

I'm not sure I follow.  I don't get how it's unfair for people to have to order online if the local demand doesn't support stores stocking the items?

 

Where I live it can be hard to find products to make Mexican food.  So, I either order online or drive a ways to the Latin markets where I can find what I want.  Seems like people around me, in general, eat Italian food a lot more than Mexican food - judging by the products in the stores.

 

Of course it's completely optional for my family to prefer Mexican food to Italian food, and not optional for a child to have a skin color that's different from the majority.   So it's not the best analogy.  But the economic principle is the same.  It's really not a fairness issue. 

 

Our local craft stores carry all the different colors of crayons, paper, etc.   It is a large metropolitan areas with a diverse population.  (Which is why after 6 years I'm still scratching my head over the dearth of good Mexican cheese and other items.)

[KarenNC]

:iagree:

 

I've seen multiracial dolls, construction paper, crayons, paints and markers. One doesn't even need to special order it. Just go to michaels or a c moores.

 

While it is possible for companies to make more choices, stores are limited to the amount of stock they can display. Displaying these things for every skin tone there is would be cost prohibitive. But I don't see why the big 3 or 4 (peach, light brown, brown and very dark brown) couldn't be displayed in multiracial areas.

 

Here where I live there isn't a lot of call for multiracial stuff. I think we have 1black family, one mixed family and 2 families if Asian descent. I don't think it is quite fair that these families would have to order this kind of stuff online, but there is a lot of stuff we as a community have to order online due to lack of availability.

 

At the point I started looking for these here (about 10 or so years ago), none of the retail or craft stores carried any of it, not even in our very multiracial large city in the South, so progress is being made. :thumbup:

 

As to the last paragraph, it seems to imply that only black, mixed race or Asian families would want to buy the products. I can see that it might be a consideration for things like bandaids, makeup for a specific skin type, or hair products for specific hair type, but not for everything. Our family is about as Caucasian as it gets, and we deliberately sought out multicultural craft supplies, doll house dolls, Barbies, picture books, etc for our daughter (she never cared about baby dolls, so we didn't worry about those).

[Murphy101]

FYI, it is possible to find multicultural construction paper, crayons, colored pencils, etc in a range of skin tones if one looks for them. We sought them out when my daughter was young and for our church religious education craft supplies (I would also look at these for co-op art activities if I were leading a co-op craft class).

 

Crayola makes markers, crayons, paint, and colored pencils. We found multicultural packs of construction paper, modeling clay, clothespins for clothespin dolls, and blank paper dolls (the ones shaped like gingerbread men) at Education Express (though we did have to ask them for some items, as they were online but not in the store). Check your local teacher supply store. Asking your local general retail store (Toys R Us, Walmart, etc) for this kind of material if they don't stock it can help make them aware there is a market for them. Walmart, for example, has some online, and, if not in the store, can be ordered for in-store pickup. This has the side benefit of at least some clerks being exposed to the fact that the items exist.

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would need multicultural crayons or paints. *confused* Maybe markers I suppose, but we don't use markers much. The entire point of colors are their ability to be mixed. I find it especially troubling that an ART class would need it. It takes all of about 5 minutes to explain and demonstrate that if one colors lightly with one color and then lightly goes over with another, one can make just about any shade of color they want. And mixing color palettes should be pretty fundamental to paint use I would hope. I have never bought special construction paper. I buy mine at SAMs, Walmart, Micheals.. Whatever variety packs are on sale. I always have multiple shades of browns, creams, and the other colors too.

 

Now dolls and such.. You have to go where those demographics are higher to buy them in person, but frankly, white or black, there is more variety and often better prices online anyways. Just like Catholics are minority in my state, so if I want a catholic items, I am highly likely to have to order it or drive far out of my way to the only 2 stores, that are small and their hours are not convienent. I don't think that's discriminatory to me. It's a sign of the small market for a small demographic.

[SKL]

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would need multicultural crayons or paints. *confused* Maybe markers I suppose, but we don't use markers much. The entire point of colors are their ability to be mixed. I find it especially troubling that an ART class would need it. It takes all of about 5 minutes to explain and demonstrate that if one colors lightly with one color and then lightly goes over with another, one can make just about any shade of color they want. And mixing color palettes should be pretty fundamental to paint use I would hope. I have never bought special construction paper. I buy mine at SAMs, Walmart, Micheals.. Whatever variety packs are on sale. I always have multiple shades of browns, creams, and the other colors too.

 

Now dolls and such.. You have to go where those demographics are higher to buy them in person, but frankly, white or black, there is more variety and often better prices online anyways. Just like Catholics are minority in my state, so if I want a catholic items, I am highly likely to have to order it or drive far out of my way to the only 2 stores, that are small and their hours are not convienent. I don't think that's discriminatory to me. It's a sign of the small market for a small demographic.

 

I tend to agree.  I never bought the multicultural art supplies.  I figured that in a pack of 64 crayons, there are enough colors that resemble a range of skin tones.  Crayola colored pencils come with a couple of brown tones, and you teach your kids how to color lightly if the tone you want is lighter.  (Same with orange / pink for a "white" person.)  Paints, that's a no-brainer.  I never had flesh-colored paints or markers when I was a kid.  :P  Just the handy-dandy Peach crayon.  If I didn't have a peach crayon, I was instructed to use orange.

 

I have nothing against having those supplies in a classroom, but it isn't a matter of racism if they aren't there.

[ktgrok]

I'm not sure I follow.  I don't get how it's unfair for people to have to order online if the local demand doesn't support stores stocking the items?

 

Where I live it can be hard to find products to make Mexican food.  So, I either order online or drive a ways to the Latin markets where I can find what I want.  Seems like people around me, in general, eat Italian food a lot more than Mexican food - judging by the products in the stores.

 

 It is a large metropolitan areas with a diverse population.  (Which is why after 6 years I'm still scratching my head over the dearth of good Mexican cheese and other items.)

 

 

But see...this is possibly an example of exactly what we are talking about. You say that there is a diverse population, there ARE Hispanic people that would want the products to make traditional food. But...the stores don't carry it. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Unless it is a matter of the store owners or buyers tend to favor the needs of the white customers over those of the Hispanic customers. (there may be another reason in this particular case, but your argument that there isn't local demand seems odd given that later you say there is a diverse population that would make you think there was demand)

[SKL]

It's a business decision if a store wants to carry xyz or not.  I would periodically ask the store and let them know you want it.  Then it's up to them to decide whether to take the trouble of opening an account with that supplier and risk buying that product only to have it expire due to insufficient demand.

 

There are plenty of products I like as a white American of no particular ethnicity, that are not carried (or no longer carried) and I suck it up.  For example, I cannot find products sweetened with stevia in my grocery store.  I asked about it and recommended they read up on it etc.  And then I proceeded to order stuff online.  I don't see this having anything to do with race.  It has to do with demand and the store's chosen philosophy/image.  The more I have to buy online, the more their revenues decrease, and maybe they will eventually buy what I want - or maybe they won't.

[Mrs Mungo]

I am darker than my husband. My kids do not all have the same skin tone. We were once watching 1 vs 100 (my kids love game shows). The question was something like, "in (whatever year, I think it was 1962?) Crayola changed this crayon's name to peach partly in response to the Civil Rights Movement. What was the name of the crayon before?" The person answering questions (a white male) didn't know the answer. There is a 50/50 option where the shows picks 1 person from the 100 who got the answer right and one who got it wrong and each explains their answers. The first person is a young white female professional cheerleader. When she saw that her answer and "flesh" are the two choices left she said something like, "I don't get it. Peach is flesh colored. Why would they change that?" My kids immediately recognized that in this girl's world flesh=white=normal. The second person was a black male who was face-palming from her answer when they first showed him on camera.

 

That is white privilege in a nutshell. You don't think anyone "needs" multicultural crayons or dolls or angel tree toppers because there are not very many families of color in your area, therefore white=normal. Of course, therefore, angels and dolls and nude all=white skin tone because that is normal.

 

My parents, aunts and uncles are all younger than dh's family. There is a marked difference in the way that they speak. My kids have *really* started to notice it at this point. For example, one of the people on dh's side might be talking about a woman who works at the grocery store, "she is a black girl, BUT she is a really hard worker!" This is common. The underlying assumption is that usually black people are not hard workers, but they don't see it that way. They were paying this girl a compliment! How could that be racist?

[beaners]

But see...this is possibly an example of exactly what we are talking about. You say that there is a diverse population, there ARE Hispanic people that would want the products to make traditional food. But...the stores don't carry it. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Unless it is a matter of the store owners or buyers tend to favor the needs of the white customers over those of the Hispanic customers. (there may be another reason in this particular case, but your argument that there isn't local demand seems odd given that later you say there is a diverse population that would make you think there was demand)

 

It might be that specialty stores catering to Hispanic (or Chinese) cuisine offer better prices and products, so people who want those products tend to shop there instead.

 

The band-aid argument about white privilege amuses me because of my own experience. We are finally coming to the end of the mountain of band-aids we bought on huge discount because no one in the area with a high Hispanic population was buying the band-aids that should have matched their skin tone.  So my pasty-white family bought all of them for pennies.

[marbel]

But see...this is possibly an example of exactly what we are talking about. You say that there is a diverse population, there ARE Hispanic people that would want the products to make traditional food. But...the stores don't carry it. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Unless it is a matter of the store owners or buyers tend to favor the needs of the white customers over those of the Hispanic customers. (there may be another reason in this particular case, but your argument that there isn't local demand seems odd given that later you say there is a diverse population that would make you think there was demand)

 

You know, whenever I try to be brief, and/or fast... it never works out.

 

The post I quoted said that there were just a few nonwhite families around.    So that was where supply and demand came in.  

 

My close-in area, within say 20-30 minutes drive of home, does not have a large Hispanic population.   Overall this is a large and diverse metro. area (Philadelphia and environs) but my neighborhood is pretty white, and the adjoining neighborhood is pretty black.  So it was and still is a surprise and frustration to me that the stores close to me do not carry a lot of Mexican food products.  Because not only people from Mexico eat Mexican food.  (Or maybe that's more on the west coast? I digress.)

 

There are areas not so close by that have larger Hispanic populations. That's where I go for the things I need. 

 

After I posted someone mentioned that though her family is white, they made a point of using various colors for skin tones, etc.  I had not thought of that because when my kids were little (crayon and construction paper age), they were surrounded by friends of various skin tones and we didn't need multi-cultural crayon sets; they blended colors, using light browns, etc. 

 

So, yes, I was confusing and contradictory in my post.  Happy to admit it.  I do believe that stores are under no obligation to stock things they might not be able to sell, and that it's not unfair that I have to drive 30 minutes for good queso fresco.  It is simply frustrating. 

 

 

[SKL]

I am darker than my husband. My kids do not all have the same skin tone. We were once watching 1 vs 100 (my kids love game shows). The question was something like, "in (whatever year, I think it was 1962?) Crayola changed this crayon's name to peach partly in response to the Civil Rights Movement. What was the name of the crayon before?" The person answering questions (a white male) didn't know the answer. There is a 50/50 option where the shows picks 1 person from the 100 who got the answer right and one who got it wrong and each explains their answers. The first person is a young white female professional cheerleader. When she saw that her answer and "flesh" are the two choices left she said something like, "I don't get it. Peach is flesh colored. Why would they change that?" My kids immediately recognized that in this girl's world flesh=white=normal. The second person was a black male who was face-palming from her answer when they first showed him on camera.

 

That is white privilege in a nutshell. You don't think anyone "needs" multicultural crayons or dolls or angel tree toppers because there are not very many families of color in your area, therefore white=normal. Of course, therefore, angels and dolls and nude all=white skin tone because that is normal.

 

My parents, aunts and uncles are all younger than dh's family. There is a marked difference in the way that they speak. My kids have *really* started to notice it at this point. For example, one of the people on dh's side might be talking about a woman who works at the grocery store, "she is a black girl, BUT she is a really hard worker!" This is common. The underlying assumption is that usually black people are not hard workers, but they don't see it that way. They were paying this girl a compliment! How could that be racist?

 

Good stuff, but this shows that things are really changing.  So that's positive and should be acknowledged even though there is still much room for improvement.

 

The point about peach = flesh is not privilege, it is ignorance.  Thank goodness it was changed long ago.

 

Many years ago, a good AA friend (whom I first met as a job candidate) pointed out to me that it's not really a compliment to tell a black person how "articulate" s/he is.  I think that nowadays many people understand this, but then, I was surprised.  She *is* more articulate than most candidates of any color.  But would I have said that to my white subordinate, who was similarly articulate?  Not sure, honestly.  But clearly black people had gotten used to the working assumption that they are inarticulate until proven otherwise.  That's ignorant.  It's great to have good friends who can recognize goodwill and educate kindly.

 

And when all else fails, a little Chris Rock is a breath of fresh air . . . .

[ktgrok]

It's a business decision if a store wants to carry xyz or not.  I would periodically ask the store and let them know you want it.  Then it's up to them to decide whether to take the trouble of opening an account with that supplier and risk buying that product only to have it expire due to insufficient demand.

 

There are plenty of products I like as a white American of no particular ethnicity, that are not carried (or no longer carried) and I suck it up.  For example, I cannot find products sweetened with stevia in my grocery store.  I asked about it and recommended they read up on it etc.  And then I proceeded to order stuff online.  I don't see this having anything to do with race.  It has to do with demand and the store's chosen philosophy/image.  The more I have to buy online, the more their revenues decrease, and maybe they will eventually buy what I want - or maybe they won't.

 

Yes, but at the end of all that, you are left with the fact that in a diverse area, the store owner is catering to the wants of a certain population, in a way that may NOT be in line with what the market would support. If it is, then fine. But there are times when it probably isn't, and that is part of what white privilege is. If there are equal numbers of hispanics and italians in the area, but the store carries traditional italian food but not mexican, perhaps, just perhaps, there is a reason other than market demographics. It isn't illegal, it just is. 

[SKL]

One thing about immigrant groups, though - they may have other, more cost-effective ways of getting those items.  They may have connections and meet up with countrymen from far away, even from their country of origin where some of that stuff costs a small fraction of what it would cost in a mainstream grocery store here.  Maybe the store folks have tried an experiment and didn't sell much.  It wouldn't be the first time a bright marketing idea misfired.  Or maybe they are simply ignorant or too lazy to look around.  It seems doubtful that they are thinking, "we could probably make some money off this Mexican stuff but I only like white people so let's not."  But I guess anything is possible.

[SKL]

And I also think it's valid to say "that's a specialty item I don't sell because the prospective customers shop at ABC store."  (Besides which, if they started selling everything you could get at ABC store, there would be complaints about putting ABC store out of business.  :P )

 

The grocery store I shop at has no bread that I am willing to buy.  All the bread they sell only stays soft for 2-3 days, and that doesn't work for me.  I do not shop at any other grocery store because I don't have time for all that shopping.  I have to find some other way to get bread for my kids' lunches.  But I don't question the store owners' right (moral or otherwise) to not carry bread containing preservatives.  I'm sure they gave it some thought and realized they would not be meeting everyone's needs/wants, but it's not up to them to meet everyone's needs and wants.

[*Michelle*]

  It seems doubtful that they are thinking, "we could probably make some money off this Mexican stuff but I only like white people so let's not."  But I guess anything is possible.

 

I once called ahead to a local grocery store to see if they had a specialty "ethnic" ingredient that I needed.  The manager took my number and said she would check and call me back.  Half an hour later, she called to let me know that they did not have that ingredient, but she had called multiple other grocery chains around town and located one store across the river that did carry it.  "We would be happy to go and pick up the item for you from that store and have it here for you on your next trip in," was what she let me know.

 

Then again, this store is well-known for that level of customer service.  That, again, is that "basic" level of decency that they extend to all of their customers.

[Laurie4b]

 

Ugh...I'm on my iPad so I can't reply the way I want to... Anyway, regarding those of us with white privilege having more power to accomplish things, what are some things we can do?

I'm being totally serious here, not snarky. I know there is the OP - jumping in when we see racism in action. But we may never have a chance to do that. So what are some ideas?

   

While I totally, 100% agree with what you are saying, I feel like with the situation of male/female coworkers there is a clear solution. I guess that, for me, I don't see how to take that and turn it into using my white privilege to help fight against racism. I mean, I'm a stay at home, homeschooling mom who just doesn't have those kinds of opportunities on any sort of regular basis. I think as homeschooling moms, we have the opportunity to change the world one family at a time. What literature, for example, that you decide to expose your children too, can make a huge difference in how they see the world. Pointing out when things slant such that white=normal. I have a part time job where I pretty much work by myself (receptionist)...I attend a church that consists of multiple races but have never seen anyone treated differently because of their race (and they better not, at a church of all places - that should be the first place to really embrace all races and bring them together!)... At church, here are some things to look at: who is in leadership? Does the leadership have only 1 or 2 leaders from other ethnicities, or is it truly mixed?  Our church is multi-ethnic and we had a few visionary leaders several years ago working to make sure that we weren't only using white standards to choose leaders  (for instance, Asians with gifts of leadership do not put themselves forward like either AAs or white folks with gifts of leadership do. Culturally, they would have to be pursued pretty strongly and persuaded to step forward. So we had been overlooking a lot of leadership there. That's one of many examples.

 

Another issue is in choice of music and outward expressiveness during worship. I remember during the worship wars several years ago, one woman at our church saying, "We need more traditional music," to which an AA friend responded, "Whose tradition?"  Sometimes you'll see people who feel that too much expressiveness is counter to an appropriately reverent response to God. Others will view those who believe that responding quietly (volume and expressiveness tend to be pretty strongly cultural) as the "frozen chosen", not really responding at all. Charismatic churches are often more racially diverse than churches which aren't, simply because of the "expressiveness" factor in the worship.

 

Another issue is visuals. Look at this especially in your children's ministry. I recall a very sad conversation when an AA friend had been reading  "the" most popular Bible among homeschoolers of that era to her son. One day he asked, "Why isn't there anyone in the Bible who looks like me?" Well that would have been easy to answer if they had all looked like Middle-Eastern Jews. However, they all looked like they were Scandinavian with a little Brit thrown in for variety. This is changing, but if you look with your eyes open, you'll often see it. If your kids' Bible has mixed colors of people, what color is Jesus?  Does the skin of the bad guys tend to be darker than the illustrator typically uses? That sends a powerful, usually subconscious message, etc.

 

How well do you know people at your church who are of different ethnicities? If you've never had a discussion about racial issues, one thing you could do is to mention video or this thread , share how your opinion is evolving, and ask them how they view it.

 

As you begin to hear from others, it will be obvious sometimes what you can do.

 

If you read the chapter in Acts in which the people of the church were asked to choose deacons to solve the native Jewish vs. Greek-speaking Jewish widows discrimination in food distribution problem , it's interesting to note that 100% of the deacons chosen had Greek names. Not even 50/50, not- okay we'll have a couple Greek-speaking Jews-- but 100%. Interesting, isn't it? 

 

There are some good books you can read as well. Divided by Faith by Emerson & Smith is a good one.

 

So I just don't see an obvious way that I can take your story and make it relevant to me in this conversation.

  

Won't white privilege automatically exist - in the non harmful ways - no matter what, as long as whites are the predominant race in the us? I'm talking things like more white actors on tv, etc (because that is understandable, as a representation if the nation as a whole?) or the fact that the country was founded by whites, etc. so I think to say, 'what perpetuates white privilege?' Doesn't make all that much sense, because there will be white privilege as long as there are more whites, right?  Yes, I think you are right to some extent, but it could begin to change if white people (only white people can put a dent in white privilege) become more aware, and those who care about it become more intentionally inclusive.

Remember, I'm talking the non harmful white privilege stuff here. Not any ideas that whites a 'treated better' - that definitely should stop. I think one of the very most important things we can do is to listen to people's stories. That is very powerful stuff for opening one's eyes to the differences.

You know, I'm glad you said something about the literature - I have just been reading captains courageous, and the n word is in that what seems to be a number of times (I've only gotten through the first couple of chapters). I was struggling a bit with the decision of whether or not to let link read it, because of that, because on one hand, he will be exposed to it at one point or another, and on the other, I don't necessarily want the word to become a part of his knowledge, if that makes sense. I know that's naive of me lol... But I had already kind of been leaning toward going ahead with letting him read it, and this post affirmed that. Thanks!

 

I know my opinion has been evolving over the course of this thread, but I just wanted to share with you something I thought of last night...

Several years ago, another lady - I believe it was at church - was taking about how her daughter was in Walmart and wondered why there were no baby dolls that looked like her, and she really really wanted one that looked like her! At the time, I thought, 'really lady? You are going to bring race into this? A baby doll is a baby doll - who cares what color it is? Who cares if the baby doll looks like them or not? I mean, it isn't like the ugly little white dolls look like any white kids I've seen...' I now realize that if I hadn't had the privilege of always having the choice to get a doll that looked 'like me', I probably wouldn't have felt that way. To me, though, the thinking was so foreign - a doll was a doll, you know? But I'd never been in the position they were in. (Note: I never was a girl who liked baby dolls, anyway, so I don't know what was available at the time lol... But you get my point). Exactly! . I had always had black friends, yada yada but it wasn't until I had a black foster daughter that my eyes were really open to that. I remember going into the local Christian bookstore to buy her some of the chapter book series that help kids develop fluency--you know, the kind with predictable plot, no character development, kind of a Christianized Nancy Drew :tongue_smilie: , and not one book in the whole store (It was a huge store) had an African American child on the cover, or in the book!  That has changed now, but now it's still hard to find Christian books with Latino, Asian, or Native American characters. Sadly, even back then, it was a contrast with secular bookstores.

.

 

[SKL]

Interesting comments in the last post L4B.  I've told my daughters that Jesus was probably brown-skinned, like other people indigenous to the area where he was born.  I'm sure some people would consider that sacrilegious . . . .

 

It's true that now blacks are represented in toys and books on the popular shelves, but other non-whites, not so much.  But there is a wealth of good multicultural literature for those who seek it out.  Some really wonderful stuff, much of it bilingual and often with lovely artwork.  Much better than those "popular series" in my opinion.  :)

[marbel]

Interesting comments in the last post L4B.  I've told my daughters that Jesus was probably brown-skinned, like other people indigenous to the area where he was born.  I'm sure some people would consider that sacrilegious . . . .

 

 

Why would that be sacrilegious?  Don't people know what middle-Easterners look like? 

[marbel]

One thing about immigrant groups, though - they may have other, more cost-effective ways of getting those items.  They may have connections and meet up with countrymen from far away, even from their country of origin where some of that stuff costs a small fraction of what it would cost in a mainstream grocery store here.  Maybe the store folks have tried an experiment and didn't sell much.  It wouldn't be the first time a bright marketing idea misfired.  Or maybe they are simply ignorant or too lazy to look around.  It seems doubtful that they are thinking, "we could probably make some money off this Mexican stuff but I only like white people so let's not."  But I guess anything is possible.

 

Yeah, stores are in business to make money.  Most stores change as the demographics around them change.   I suppose there might be the occasional storekeeper who thinks that way, but not many, because they're not going to stay in business very long. 

 

 

[PeacefulChaos]

.

 

Thank you SO MUCH!  Seriously, your reply was awesome.  I really appreciate it.  :)

[myfunnybunch]

Many years ago, a good AA friend (whom I first met as a job candidate) pointed out to me that it's not really a compliment to tell a black person how "articulate" s/he is.  I think that nowadays many people understand this, but then, I was surprised.  She *is* more articulate than most candidates of any color.  But would I have said that to my white subordinate, who was similarly articulate?  Not sure, honestly.  But clearly black people had gotten used to the working assumption that they are inarticulate until proven otherwise.  That's ignorant. 

 

See, this is where I struggle. I *would* say that, or something similar, to a friend of any skin color. I compliment friends for being articulate. It has never occurred to me that it might be insulting or condescending to a friend of color because in my mind being articulate is so completely separate from skin color.

 

So if I say that to a black friend, will she potentially think I have this unspoken "...for a black person," tagged to the end? I can't imagine any other reason that the compliment would be objectionable. Should I not offer the same compliments to a friend of color that I would offer to a white friend? I am asking this seriously. I always thought that the idea of eliminating racism was that everyone was treated equally regardless of race.

 

I'm kind of afraid to post this because I'm afraid it sounds stupid.

 

Cat

[marbel]

See, this is where I struggle. I *would* say that, or something similar, to a friend of any skin color. I compliment friends for being articulate. It has never occurred to me that it might be insulting or condescending to a friend of color because in my mind being articulate is so completely separate from skin color.

 

So if I say that to a black friend, will she potentially think I have this unspoken "...for a black person," tagged to the end? I can't imagine any other reason that the compliment would be objectionable. Should I not offer the same compliments to a friend of color that I would offer to a white friend? I am asking this seriously. I always thought that the idea of eliminating racism was that everyone was treated equally regardless of race.

 

I'm kind of afraid to post this because I'm afraid it sounds stupid.

 

Cat

 

I'll sound stupid with you.

 

"Articulate" is a word with a specific meaning.  I use it all the time to describe someone who is well-spoken.  I may have used it earlier in this thread to describe a former (black) coworker of mine. 

 

I don't want to go around offending people either, but it seems it can be very difficult not to. Words have meaning and if people start attaching different meanings that fit their own particular sub-culture, how will we ever communicate without making someone else angry?

 

Is it really black people who are offended, or white people being offended on their behalf? This just reminds me of an incident from my working days.  The  lunchroom was being redecorated and someone ordered prints, photos of fruit, for the walls.  Among the fruits were watermelons.  Someone complained that watermelon images would be offensive to the black employees. There was a big to-do about it.  No  black person was offended, and they thought the kerfuffle was stupid.  It was a big mess and probably led to some mandatory diversity training.

 

 

[Laurie4b]

See, this is where I struggle. I *would* say that, or something similar, to a friend of any skin color. I compliment friends for being articulate. It has never occurred to me that it might be insulting or condescending to a friend of color because in my mind being articulate is so completely separate from skin color.

 

So if I say that to a black friend, will she potentially think I have this unspoken "...for a black person," tagged to the end? I can't imagine any other reason that the compliment would be objectionable. Should I not offer the same compliments to a friend of color that I would offer to a white friend? I am asking this seriously. I always thought that the idea of eliminating racism was that everyone was treated equally regardless of race.

 

I'm kind of afraid to post this because I'm afraid it sounds stupid.

 

Cat

 

I think that that particular compliment is one that has acquired racial connotations. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/weekinreview/04clemetson.html?_r=0

 

I'm wondering if the idea of eliminating racism really is about treating everyone equally. For instance, in my household, I treat each of my kids differently so as to treat them all lovingly, KWIM? Love goes beyond equality.

 

[SKL]

I'll sound stupid with you.

 

"Articulate" is a word with a specific meaning.  I use it all the time to describe someone who is well-spoken.  I may have used it earlier in this thread to describe a former (black) coworker of mine. 

 

I don't want to go around offending people either, but it seems it can be very difficult not to. Words have meaning and if people start attaching different meanings that fit their own particular sub-culture, how will we ever communicate without making someone else angry?

 

Is it really black people who are offended, or white people being offended on their behalf? This just reminds me of an incident from my working days.  The  lunchroom was being redecorated and someone ordered prints, photos of fruit, for the walls.  Among the fruits were watermelons.  Someone complained that watermelon images would be offensive to the black employees. There was a big to-do about it.  No  black person was offended, and they thought the kerfuffle was stupid.  It was a big mess and probably led to some mandatory diversity training.

 

I understand.  I also like the word "articulate" quite apart from race or color.  I use it often, both as a noun and verb.  In fact, I even tell my 6yo daughters to "articulate" (verb) instead of mumbling.  But, would I tell a white candidate s/he was articulate?  I'm really not sure.  I had a white employee to whom I gave a lot of well-deserved verbal praise when she was feeling unsure of herself.  Intelligent, hard-working, and probably lots of other adjectives crossed my lips.  Which ones would have been insults were she black?

 

(For the record, it was my boss who called my friend "articulate" to her face, but I said to myself, "I thought the same thing, did I put my foot in my mouth too?")

 

[myfunnybunch]

 

I'm wondering if the idea of eliminating racism really is about treating everyone equally. For instance, in my household, I treat each of my kids differently so as to treat them all lovingly, KWIM? Love goes beyond equality.

 

 

I guess I see where you're coming from, but I treat each of my children differently and lovingly because of who they are as individuals. I don't treat them differently because one is....trying to think of some physical characteristic that might differentiate them, but they all look like clones of my dh!....because one has freckles and one has curly hair. And I know them all well enough to have a decent idea of what might or might not bother them. I don't know which person might mentally add "for a person of color" if I say, "You're really articulate," to a person of color.

 

From your linked article (near the end):

"Do not use it as the primary attribute of note for a black person if you would not use it for a similarly talented, skilled or eloquent white person."

That's where my confusion lies (and I am genuinely confused, not trying to make a point)....I would, and do, use the word "articulate" to describe talented, skilled, eloquent speakers. I don't care what color they are. But who would know that unless they already knew me and my speech patterns?

So should I strike it from my vocabulary only when referring to talented, skilled, eloquent black speakers because someone might hear a subtext I don't intend? 

Not use it when referring to well-spoken people of any color in order to avoid the word altogether (because it seems odd to only use the word "articulate" to describe well-spoken white people)?

Or just go ahead and use it because I do use it for all speakers, with the hope that my listeners will assume that I do, indeed, regularly use the word "articulate" to refer to talented, skilled, eloquent speakers regardless of color?

 

FWIW, I do think Biden's remarks in the linked article were the equivalent of adding "for a black person" after "You're very articulate." I'm certainly not defending that kind of clumsy backhanded compliment. I do understand that there is a history. But in some cases, I wonder if the best way to take the sting out is to use our awareness of the way these kinds of words have been hurtful to make a conscious effort to just use these words in exactly the way they are intended to be used and leave the subtext behind.

 

Cat

[Laurie4b]

I guess I see where you're coming from, but I treat each of my children differently and lovingly because of who they are as individuals. I don't treat them differently because one is....trying to think of some physical characteristic that might differentiate them, but they all look like clones of my dh!....because one has freckles and one has curly hair. And I know them all well enough to have a decent idea of what might or might not bother them. I don't know which person might mentally add "for a person of color" if I say, "You're really articulate," to a person of color.

 

 

Cat

 

True.  I used treatment of children as an analogy of "loving & fair  treatment is not always equal treatment;" analogies usually break down in the details at some other point other than the main one. However, when color is an indicator of some of the patterns of behavior a person has had a high probability of experiencing in their life (such as frequently being trailed in a store, viewed in stereotyped ways or viewed as an exception to a stereotype), then it becomes very analogous, imo, to the way one treats people one knows well differently based on their different needs. I could extend the analogy to friends. There are some friends I would know could say "no" if I asked them for a favor and others who couldn't even if they should. So I would be more likely to ask a favor of those who can say "no" when they need to. But in both analogies, it's based on knowing individuals. But there are also things we can know about the likely experiences (not innate qualities) of others based on ethnicity, immigration status, etc. all the  while keeping in mind that an individual may be different from their cohort.

 

So in this case, if one knows  that "articulate" has become a trigger word, not a compliment, one doesn't use it, even if one would apply the word to a white person. That is admittedly not equal treatment on the surface, but it is equal treatment in the sense that you want to compliment someone and so choose words that will have the impact of them feeling complimented. 

 

I think your bigger question, though, goes beyond the word "articulate."  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am hearing the bigger question of: "How can a person avoid inadvertently giving offense?" I don't think it can be avoided altogether, but for me, that doesn't mean I should give up, but that I should keep listening and learning and applying what I know. Again, if I go back to family members, I cringe at all the mistakes I've made, but I keep trying to improve. 

 

I'm white, so I'm focused on what white people can do to further good racial relations. My AA friends would, I think, react to something that was well-intended but that hurt by focusing on the intention. It doesn't mean it wouldn't sting, but they would cover that over in understanding.

 

Human relationships are hard in general. They take a lot of work. When you extend that to groups of people, and then relating to  individuals who are part of a larger group, it's even harder work. I do think that people of good will give others credit for commitment to doing the work of understanding and changing, even if we slip up at times.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Part of the problem is the designation "flesh coloured": crayons, paints, band-aids, etc. There has certainly been a move away from this during my lifetime.

 

FWIW, the Whole Foods down the street sells only lighter shade band-aids.

From a nursing point of view, I am not sure I would want darker bandaid since it would be harder to see drainage possibly which might an indication to change bandage. it also never even occurred to me that bandaids are supposed to blend in with the skin. IMHO I feel it is a stretch to think bandaids are racist. OTOH I agree that our society's standards of beauty tends to favor very thin white women which is a shame. I hope all can see the beauty in diversity.