One easy thing every white person could do to make the world a better place

[MyThreeSons]

Either don't accept checks, or run everyone through the 'bad check book.'

It may very well be official policy that everyone be run through the bad check book, but it is unofficial policy that the cashiers don't actually do it with everyone.

 

I rarely shop at WalMart anymore, but when I did, I noticed that the door greeters seemed to be selective in whose bags they checked on the way out. At one time, I chose to believe that my bags weren't checked because the greeters knew me -- my dh worked there. Our local store seems to have done away with greeters, at least during the few times I've popped in there this past year.

[MyThreeSons]

When I hear the term "white privilege" I have a knee-jerk reaction to automatically shut down. Not because I do not think that it exists, but because of the accusation it seems to carry with it, like Dandelion said.

It's interesting how differently people respond to the term "white privilege". I honestly don't remember hearing the term until several weeks ago, when I first encountered it while doing some reading during the George Zimmerman trial. As I read one writer's definition of the term, as a white woman, my initial thought was, "YES!! That is right on!" I never felt that I was being accused of anything, or that I was supposed to feel guilty about having white privilege. It was just a very good term to summarize all of those hidden benefits that I experience simply because of the color of my skin. It's probably better to say "the negative things I avoid", though.

 

As a privileged white woman, I could easily fail to see the discrimination around me. However, I once dated a black guy, which was an incredibly eye-opening experience. And I have a son who has tattoos, piercings and sometimes weird hair styles. Now, I recognize that those are all choices he made, but the fact is that people wrongly make assumptions about him based on outward appearance.

[MyThreeSons]

There are many issues in my country that are treated as race issues that would be resolved faster and more healthily as socio-economic issues. I don't know why they aren't.

Unfortunately, too many times the two seem to go hand-in-hand. Is the security guard following that guy through the store because he's young, because he's black, or because of the way he's dressed?

[Carrie12345]

Power and Privilege

This, this, this!

 

On a slight tangent, I finally gave in a few weeks ago and began watching Doctor Who.

I'm completely unfamiliar with race "climate" in the UK but, having worked my way up to modern season 3, I've spent the entire time LOVING how interracial the show is in comparison to American television. It makes me uncomfortable to recognize it as unusual, but it really is. You just don't often see such natural mixed-race pairings in our shows unless the topic actually IS mixed-race pairings (be it romantic, platonic, or work-based.)

[DawnM]

Interesting observation Rosie.

 

I admit that while I was watching the video I thought, "That is great that her sister in law stepped in, but if I were in line behind this woman and didn't know her, I wouldn't automatically assume that the cashier asking for ID was profiling her.  I would have just assumed it was policy.  The only reason the SIL knew it wasn't is because she had already been checked out and wasn't asked for ID."

 

So, I wouldn't have just automatically stepped up to the plate without knowing the woman or knowing that it wasn't policy and that she was necessarily being "profiled."

 

 

 

 

 

What I liked about the original video is she clearly said she said she likes it when white people stick up for her in the face of racism. From what I understand of American manners from reading here for years, it sounds like many people would feel uncomfortable doing that for fear of offending by poking their noses into someone else's business.

 

 

 

[DawnM]

I can't stand that show.  There are so many I just shake my head and think, "Really?  They expect someone to step in here?"  

 

I would NOT tell someone else's kids to behave (incident in the restaurant where two kids were running around.)  A pageant mom pushes her daughter into the pageant world???   I would not step in to a personal family feud in a public place unless someone was being physically hurt or abused.

 

 

The only episodes I thought, "I would definitely say something" were when someone was being made fun of by a worker.  For example, there was an episode where a mentally challenged teen working in a store was being picked on by a neurotypical teen working in the same store.  

 

That show makes me cringe.  Do people think they have to get into every aspect of everyone's business?  Sometimes people just need/want to argue.  Sometimes we need to just let them.

 

 

 

 

 

You should try to watch some of the episodes of "What Would You Do?" TV show. They set up hidden camera scenarios where actors very publicly do something outrageous and then see how the observers react -- whether they step in or not. They will often switch out the actors to include a person of different skin color or some other outward appearance, and compare what happens. Sadly, there is almost universally a difference in how people react.

ETA: I see that someone has posted a video from one episode. While that one is shocking enough, the one someone else referred to where they set up different actors obviously stealing a bicycle is even worse: people actually offered to help the cute white girl (who freely admitted the bike wasn't hers), while they called the police on the black guy.

 

[Pawz4me]

I admit that while I was watching the video I thought, "That is great that her sister in law stepped in, but if I were in line behind this woman and didn't know her, I wouldn't automatically assume that the cashier asking for ID was profiling her.  I would have just assumed it was policy.  The only reason the SIL knew it wasn't is because she had already been checked out and wasn't asked for ID."

 

So, I wouldn't have just automatically stepped up to the plate without knowing the woman or knowing that it wasn't policy and that she was necessarily being "profiled."

 

I agree.

 

It's been yeas--many, many years--since I paid for anything in a store with a check.  I have absolutely no clue how it works now.  I was surprised awhile back when someone was explaining to me that now they don't keep your check, but scan it and give it back to you.  I had no idea.  And unless something is really obvious, I don't pay attention to what's going on with the customer in front of me.  First, I don't consider it any of my business and bordering on rude to pay that much attention to a stranger.  It's almost like eavesdropping.  And secondly, I'm usually busy living in my head like introverts tend to do, composing "to do" lists and thinking my grand introverted thoughts.  So no, I probably wouldn't have intervened.  Does that make me racist or uncaring? Not at all.

[MyThreeSons]

I can't stand that show.  There are so many I just shake my head and think, "Really?  They expect someone to step in here?"  

 

..... snip ......

 

That show makes me cringe.  Do people think they have to get into every aspect of everyone's business?  Sometimes people just need/want to argue.  Sometimes we need to just let them.

My point in referencing the show wasn't that I always agree that people should step in, but rather that the show brings out the fact that the response to a given situation often seems to be affected by the race (or age or economic status or gender) of the person involved.

[MyThreeSons]

And unless something is really obvious, I don't pay attention to what's going on with the customer in front of me.  First, I don't consider it any of my busy and bordering on rude to pay that much attention to a stranger.  It's almost like eavesdropping.  And secondly, I'm usually busy living in my head like introverts tend to do, composing "to do" lists and thinking my grand introverted thoughts.  So no, I probably wouldn't have intervened.  Does that make me racist or uncaring? Not at all.

It would be pretty hard to intervene if you truly didn't notice it.

 

However, if you did notice it, but you chose to not intervene because you don't believe the person being discriminated against is worthy of being treated fairly, then I have a problem with your attitude.

 

(edited to remove my unintended double negative)

[marbel]

 

What I liked about the original video is she clearly said she said she likes it when white people stick up for her in the face of racism. From what I understand of American manners from reading here for years, it sounds like many people would feel uncomfortable doing that for fear of offending by poking their noses into someone else's business.

 

There's probably a combination of fear of offending but also the recognition that we may not know the whole story.

 

If I had been ahead of the woman in the grocery line, I would have been gone, so I wouldn't see if she'd been treated differently from me.

 

If I'd been behind her, I wouldn't have been waited on yet, so I wouldn't know if she'd been treated differently from me.  I certainly would never have noticed that she'd been treated differently from the person ahead of her.   So, if I saw a clerk going through the motions of checking the "bad check book," I'd be irritated, but I wouldn't step in because I wouldn't know why they were doing it.  Since I don't write checks in stores, I don't know the policy.  (I rarely see anyone writing checks in stores, and when I do, it is always an older white woman.)   So if I had anything to speak up about, it would be the delay. But I wouldn't know the delay was caused by racial discrimination.  It could be caused by a slow clerk, or a stupid policy.

 

Of course this situation is just the example we have.   But the point is, it's not always about fear of offending.  It's about not knowing what's really going on. Not having enough information to step in.   The SIL in the video did.  That was a pretty unusual situation.

 

ETA: I see Pawz4me said it better just before I did.  ;)

 

ETA2:  I mentioned this thread to my husband.  His first reaction was:  maybe there is a dollar amount that triggers extra scrutiny.  Maybe it's $50 and the first woman's check was less than that, but the second women's was more.

 

Off the point of white privilege, but on the point of not stepping into a situation when we don't know what's going on. 

[Laurie4b]

 

In order to make headway against racism, there must be open dialogue.  Telling "people with privilege" to shut up isn't helpful.  Of course we should call out racism where we see it - not a single person in this thread said otherwise. 

 

Earlier in this thread, I was questioned about what I meant when I said "White privilege carries with it an implied accusation against all white people, whether they are racist or not. It tends to shut down dialogue rather than encourage it."  Your post illustrates that perfectly.

 

 

I think the words "shut up" can be loaded for some people and not for others. For some people and in some regions, it's a highly offensive phrase. However, it's more matter-of-fact in other regions. I didn't read the pp as using it in a way that offends.

 

Some issues I see with differing definitions: 

 

1. Privilege does not equal racism. It does mean that the privileged benefit from the way society is set up in  ways that others don't, giving them advantages that are largely invisible to themselves.  "White privilege" was a term specifically coined to describe this reality in the US.

 

By way of analogy, if our society was a marine environment, the fish would be "privileged." They would never notice the water. They get good stuff from it. Breathing underwater comes totally naturally for them and meets all their needs for oxygen. It's their "normal."  They pass by turtles & amphibians & an otter or two underwater as well. The fish assumes it's good for them, too. The turtles and amphibians & otter, however, notice the water because they can' t breathe there. They have to go to the surface to get air before going back under. 

 

(In the video, the cashier was not exercising white privilege. She was acting on racial distinctions in a way that may not even have been conscious.   The white-appearing sil had benefited from white privilege when she went through the line unchallenged. The black-appearing woman was experiencing life as a person not in the privileged strata. A white woman saying something in the situation is more easily heard than a black woman saying something in the situation because of her privilege.)

 

 

2. One of the reasons that white and nonwhite people in the US talk past each other in discussions on racial incidents is because nonwhite people are reacting to an incident that is part of a pattern. White people tend to react to an incident  as an individual incident and therefore ask questions about other possible causes, the possibility of misinterpretation, etc. This then feels to nonwhite people like their perceptions are being discounted.  This is what I think Sadie was referring to when she said white people need to listen. Listening to other people's stories begins to open one's eyes to patterns that one may have been unaware of. One can't begin to see the pattern if one automatically responds to each incident as an individual occurrence, using methods of interpretation that apply within your own strata. 

 

(e.g. A black male friend complains that he got pulled over for nothing except "driving while black."  That happened to you, once, too. You interpreted it as a bizarre single incident. You offer this possibility to him . It actually could be a bizarre incident in his case as well; however, it is much less probable. If you listen to his experience , and ask questions, and listen some more you may find that it's happened to him multiple times, has happened to every other black male he knows multiple times, etc. Then you realize that you interpreted the incident when it happened to you as a bizarre one-off kind of thing because the pattern is not actually true for you and those like you. What we will miss if we automatically assume an individual perspective is that pattern. Typically, any given incident can be explained away. It's the pattern that can't be explained away.)

 

 

3. This is perhaps a corollary of  both 1 &2  above: people of every race are bigoted and can speak and act with intentional discrimination or even violence toward those of other races.  Most people use the word "racism" to describe this kind of behavior.

 

However, others use the term "racism" with a specific definition that is applying to broad institutionalized societal patterns that cause disadvantage to those who are nonwhite. This is where things typically get very muddy because some people will say that people who are not in the privileged strata cannot be racist (by their definition)  because they don't have the power to be. imo, this is a co-opting of a word that has a commonly understood meaning (racism= bigotry) and giving it a new meaning that is different. This causes all kinds of misunderstanding. 

[Parrothead]

I'll happily change 'shut up' to 'be quiet' or 'pay attention', if those phrases are more comfortable, but the point is the same. If you are white, you really need to spend more time listening and less time talking.

 

All having privilege means is that your path is easier. My path as a middle class, educated white woman is easier than the path of an Aboriginal woman from a low socio economic background and poor spoken English.. Put us both in an uptown store and only one of us will be followed by the security guard. Only one of us is at risk of having her children removed, of being assumed to be 'slow' or a drunk or a victim of violence.

 

Why does the person who is oppressed or treated as other, due to their skin colour, their gender, their class, have to carry the entire burden of fighting against it ? That was the issue explored in the video - a woman's thankfulness that she didn't have to carry the weight of protesting discrimination on her own.

Sorry, but I can't agree with this. Your first paragraph is prejudiced. You seem to also assume you are one of the few white people who speak out against prejudice. All while condemning a section of the population just because of skin color.

 

You are also naive if you think white people aren't followed or tracked in a department store. Or if you think whites don't lose their kids. Or that white people aren't told to get back to their side of the street, out of the church or business. No, it isn't as prevalent. Nor does it make the headlines. Who would dare? But it does happen and to ignore it is to be just as naive as those who don't think racism is still a problem.

 

Telling people to sit down, shut up and listen is a sure way of shutting down communications with those very same people. Nobody wants to be treated that disrespectfully.

 

Yes, white privilege exists. So do other privileges in other places. Have you ever left your country of birth and gone beyond the tourists destinations? Trust me, the natives are nice to you because you have the almighty dollar, not because you are white. (Assuming you are america.) Who are you going to tell to sit down and shut up then? The white traveler or person whose country the traveler is visiting? Cause that native person probably doesn't give a rat's pattootie about the color of the visitors skin.

 

Racism and other prejudices are not inborn. They have to be learned. All people, regardless of race, creed or sexual inclination, need to be educated to respect ourselves and others. Bullying must stop. Prejudices must no longer be taught and passed on. We as a whole human race need to learn to treat people with kindness and grace. Or we will never get anywhere.

[ktgrok]

To an extent I agree, but I do think it depends on where you live. I suppose northern Alberta isn't going to have the same balance of things as the southern US. Being white in one of the richest countries in the world in one of the richest provinces of that country definitely gives me advantages over a very large amount of people. But racism against Black people is not as big an issue here as down there. Racism against Natives is a bit of an issue. I've seen my aunt get treated badly simply because she is Inuit and looks the part.

 

In that case it is still white privledge. The racism is against Natives instead of just Blacks, but the privledge is still for the Whites. So still White privledge. 

[ktgrok]

I can't stand that show.  There are so many I just shake my head and think, "Really?  They expect someone to step in here?"  

 

I would NOT tell someone else's kids to behave (incident in the restaurant where two kids were running around.)  A pageant mom pushes her daughter into the pageant world???   I would not step in to a personal family feud in a public place unless someone was being physically hurt or abused.

 

 

The only episodes I thought, "I would definitely say something" were when someone was being made fun of by a worker.  For example, there was an episode where a mentally challenged teen working in a store was being picked on by a neurotypical teen working in the same store.  

 

That show makes me cringe.  Do people think they have to get into every aspect of everyone's business?  Sometimes people just need/want to argue.  Sometimes we need to just let them.

 

I think it was Martin Luther King Jr, that said something about how what we remember isn't the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. It is good people refusing to get involved that allow awful things to continue. I hope if someone was verbally abusing you, or bullying you, that someone would step in and help you. Particularly if you were in a position of weakness in some way. 

[ktgrok]

 Laurie's whole post is what i wanted to say,but was too emotional to say. Yes to everything, especially the bolded. 

I think the words "shut up" can be loaded for some people and not for others. For some people and in some regions, it's a highly offensive phrase. However, it's more matter-of-fact in other regions. I didn't read the pp as using it in a way that offends.

 

Some issues I see with differing definitions: 

 

1. Privilege does not equal racism. It does mean that the privileged benefit from the way society is set up in  ways that others don't, giving them advantages that are largely invisible to themselves.  "White privilege" was a term specifically coined to describe this reality in the US.

 

By way of analogy, if our society was a marine environment, the fish would be "privileged." They would never notice the water. They get good stuff from it. Breathing underwater comes totally naturally for them and meets all their needs for oxygen. It's their "normal."  They pass by turtles & amphibians & an otter or two underwater as well. The fish assumes it's good for them, too. The turtles and amphibians & otter, however, notice the water because they can' t breathe there. They have to go to the surface to get air before going back under. 

 

(In the video, the cashier was not exercising white privilege. She was acting on racial distinctions in a way that may not even have been conscious.   The white-appearing sil had benefited from white privilege when she went through the line unchallenged. The black-appearing woman was experiencing life as a person not in the privileged strata. A white woman saying something in the situation is more easily heard than a black woman saying something in the situation because of her privilege.)

 

 

2. One of the reasons that white and nonwhite people in the US talk past each other in discussions on racial incidents is because nonwhite people are reacting to an incident that is part of a pattern. White people tend to react to an incident  as an individual incident and therefore ask questions about other possible causes, the possibility of misinterpretation, etc. This then feels to nonwhite people like their perceptions are being discounted.  This is what I think Sadie was referring to when she said white people need to listen. Listening to other people's stories begins to open one's eyes to patterns that one may have been unaware of. One can't begin to see the pattern if one automatically responds to each incident as an individual occurrence, using methods of interpretation that apply within your own strata. 

 

(e.g. A black male friend complains that he got pulled over for nothing except "driving while black."  That happened to you, once, too. You interpreted it as a bizarre single incident. You offer this possibility to him . It actually could be a bizarre incident in his case as well; however, it is much less probable. If you listen to his experience , and ask questions, and listen some more you may find that it's happened to him multiple times, has happened to every other black male he knows multiple times, etc. Then you realize that you interpreted the incident when it happened to you as a bizarre one-off kind of thing because the pattern is not actually true for you and those like you. What we will miss if we automatically assume an individual perspective is that pattern. Typically, any given incident can be explained away. It's the pattern that can't be explained away.)

 

 

3. This is perhaps a corollary of  both 1 &2  above: people of every race are bigoted and can speak and act with intentional discrimination or even violence toward those of other races.  Most people use the word "racism" to describe this kind of behavior.

 

However, others use the term "racism" with a specific definition that is applying to broad institutionalized societal patterns that cause disadvantage to those who are nonwhite. This is where things typically get very muddy because some people will say that people who are not in the privileged strata cannot be racist (by their definition)  because they don't have the power to be. imo, this is a co-opting of a word that has a commonly understood meaning (racism= bigotry) and giving it a new meaning that is different. This causes all kinds of misunderstanding. 

 

[Word Nerd]

So can there ever be a true equality where all are happy or are we doomed to repeat this until we can unite against one interplanetary, invading species? (Which is funny because of the Sci-fi works out there that talk about mankind only uniting, finally, to fight a foreign invader...)

 

How do you define "true equality"? My first thought when I read the above was the society in Harrison Bergeron. 

[SKL]

LOL, I was stuck in a Chinese city where nobody spoke English, my luggage lost, trying to buy a few things (difficult since at size 8 I was the fattest woman in the city), and their computer didn't like my credit card.  I must have left my "white privilege" at home, because I sure wasn't feeling it that day.  I was actually afraid.

 

I personally do think that "white privilege" really is all about discrimination.  It is what happens when you are not experiencing discrimination.  If it were truly prudent to check the "bad check" list, they would check it for everyone, not just black people or people who dress or talk a certain way.  Anyone with a brain knows that well-dressed white people can be some of the biggest thieves.

 

I have never seen a case where a "white privilege" discussion led to positive change.  It's a lot easier to get people on board with the statement that "discrimination is wrong."

 

The video in the OP is not about the bad check list.  It's about being respected for advocating for oneself.  In the scenario described, the person felt she would not have been respected had she herself said, "excuse me, but I noticed that the person ahead of me paid with a check as well, could you explain the difference?"  And maybe she was right - or maybe not.  She herself was making a race-based assumption when she decided that the white clerk and the white ladies behind her would think badly of her for advocating for herself.  (Or, like many people of all colors, maybe she felt she was too emotional to advocate calmly in the situation.)  Maybe by letting someone else articulate her point, she missed an opportunity to impress and educate all the white people in the vicinity.

 

I've seen the positive effects of black people calmly but firmly standing up for what they feel is right.  I would much rather give them a chance to do this themselves than step in and do it for them.  If however there is something outrageous and the person does not fight back, I will say something - if I know about it.

[marbel]

The video in the OP is not about the bad check list.  It's about being respected for advocating for oneself.  In the scenario described, the person felt she would not have been respected had she herself said, "excuse me, but I noticed that the person ahead of me paid with a check as well, could you explain the difference?"  And maybe she was right - or maybe not.  She herself was making a race-based assumption when she decided that the white clerk and the white ladies behind her would think badly of her for advocating for herself.  (Or, like many people of all colors, maybe she felt she was too emotional to advocate calmly in the situation.)  Maybe by letting someone else articulate her point, she missed an opportunity to impress and educate all the white people in the vicinity.

 

I've seen the positive effects of black people calmly but firmly standing up for what they feel is right.  I would much rather give them a chance to do this themselves than step in and do it for them.  If however there is something outrageous and the person does not fight back, I will say something - if I know about it.

 

I was thinking about something similar.  Do nonwhite people need white people to "rescue" them? (I don't mean that in a disrespectful or demeaning way.) 

 

The woman in the video didn't have to sound like the "angry black woman."   I'm not blaming her for not speaking up as she felt she couldn't.   But a person calmly articulating a question doesn't have to be threatening. 

 

Years ago in my working life I joined a Toastmasters club at lunchtime.  One of my coworkers, a black woman, did a very nice speech one time admonishing black people for using "black language,": accents, etc. I could see her easily asking a cashier why she was being treated differently.  

 

Easier for some people than for others.  But the more I think about this, the odder it seems odd that certain groups of adults need rescuing in such situations.

[Dana]

Here's a link that has a video of LeVar Burton talking on CNN about his experiences as a black man and how he taught his son to respond when being pulled over by the police.

 

I saw it elsewhere & this is the first link I found to it.

It really struck me because his experiences are SO NOT mine - and it's not something that I'd even THINK about to teach my son.

One of my son's friends is black and as they move into the teenage years, after seeing this video, I couldn't help but think what a different experience they're likely to have in the next decade or so just because of skin color.

 

That's an example of white privilege that I hadn't had a clue about just how deep it goes.

 

I appreciate those of you who have engaged me in conversation about this and listened (waves at Dandelion!)

I think more listening rather than denial goes a long way here.

 

I also think that this thread right with the one on The Bluest Eye hit me especially hard. It has been 20 years since I read The Bluest Eye, so I don't remember too much about it. The rape doesn't even register in my memory. What does stay with me though is that I recall it as a story about a little black girl who has such issues with her self image that she thinks if she had blue eyes her life would be better - because people who are white have blue eyes. That is what she takes from the white representations in society. I think the parallel conversations really struck a nerve with me - hearing "Oh the horror!!" about reading a book that TALKS about racism and a denial of the existence of white privilege and an argument about terminology here just feels like too much.

 

At any rate, thanks for listening.

Now I'm off to teach the boy today and go see The Butler (where I'll likely get worked up about racism again).

[MyThreeSons]

The OP titled this thread "One easy thing every white person could do ..." . The truth is, it really isn't that easy in many situations. I would hope that I would be strong and brave and bold enough to speak up, but I know I won't always do that.

 

I have been known to totally embarrass my sons, however, by speaking out on injustices I've experienced myself.

[Laurie4b]

The OP titled this thread "One easy thing every white person could do ..." . The truth is, it really isn't that easy in many situations. I would hope that I would be strong and brave and bold enough to speak up, but I know I won't always do that.

 

I have been known to totally embarrass my sons, however, by speaking out on injustices I've experienced myself.

 

The title came from the video, but I agree that it is not easy.

 

[Laurie4b]

I was thinking about something similar.  Do nonwhite people need white people to "rescue" them? (I don't mean that in a disrespectful or demeaning way.) 

 

The woman in the video didn't have to sound like the "angry black woman."   I'm not blaming her for not speaking up as she felt she couldn't.   But a person calmly articulating a question doesn't have to be threatening. 

 

Years ago in my working life I joined a Toastmasters club at lunchtime.  One of my coworkers, a black woman, did a very nice speech one time admonishing black people for using "black language,": accents, etc. I could see her easily asking a cashier why she was being treated differently.  

 

Easier for some people than for others.  But the more I think about this, the odder it seems odd that certain groups of adults need rescuing in such situations.

 

I think you make an important point and a key distinction.

 

"Rescuing" would be an act of patronization which still keeps a hierarchy intact.

 

And the video actually, I think, did more to illustrate the frequent difference in experiences of people of color and to illuminate how their lives might be different.

 

I think one reason the SIL could step in without patronizing or rescuing is because she knew the person and the situation. There may well be experiences that you are actually in when you do know enough about the situation to speak up. For instance, I know from talking with co-workers of color that it is a huge relief to them if they are not the only ones bringing up racial issues and disparities, because if they say something too frequently, they will be seen as "playing the race card" even if the thing is happening frequently.  That's not "rescuing;" that is being an ally.

[kahlanne]

As soon as I saw this thread I rolled my eyes preparing for the debate yet couldn't stay away. I clicked on the link knowing I would hate it yet was surprised when I didn't. Do I think racism still happens daily? Resounding yes!  Do I think it is getting better? No. I believe it has gotten better for people of color but has now beginning to switch over to racism against whites. Racism against people of color still happens today, no denying that. It should never have happened in the past nor should it be happening today. However, by condemning all whites as racist or guilty by skin color, you are then condoning racism just with a different target.  Both are wrong. Yes, I realize racism against people of color was epic at one point in history and thankfully is on the decline but how far does racism against whites have to climb before it is considered equally wrong? Do we have to enslaved for it to be acknowledged that it not only happens?  People are discussing white privilege as though black privilege doesn't happen.  It does. It all depends on the current situation and neither should ever happen. I realize the type of privilege is different for whites vs blacks. One example that I call black privilege happened to me personally. When dh and I first married times were beyond tough. I was convinced by my mil and a friend to apply for food stamps, 20 yrs ago. I filled out all the paperwork and went for the interview. The black worker took one look at me and turned me down flat but not before berating me for not having a better plan to care for ourselves. She stated to me that there were more qualified people that needed the money rather than white kids that had no business marrying young. I was so embarrassed that I went home in tears. Later at my job I began to tell a few of my black friends and they were surprised as they made less money annually than I and was on gov. assistance.  I was turned down because I was white not because I didn't fit the criteria. Dh was furious and said we would make it somehow and we did. This isn't the only time a similar thing has happened to me or my white friends/family. A relative was turned down for free carseats, a gov program, because she was white. I was with her in line and heard the white lady tell her that her skin color was not the right shade to allow her to get one. Now do I think this is the norm? No. I think it is unusual for whites to be on the receiving end of racism in such a way yet not acknowledging that it can and does happen will not solve the problem.   Another flip side of racism is whites not knowing whether to say black, african american, people of color, etc without fear of being called racism. On this very board I read a comment a while back about a small boy being corrected for commenting on someones skin color. I can't remember exactly but I believe somewhere in the thread it was stated it is best not to comment on another person's skin color because it could be deemed racist. I believe the comment might have been about chocolate skin. I have told many "chocolate" skinned people how beautiful their skin color is as well as people with skin so dark it is like a night sky without the stars. Absolutely stunning! I don't see why as a white I should shy away from these comments or descriptions any more than when I tell Katie, my daughter's bf, that her creamy milky white skin is beautiful. Yes, pasty white as she calls it but so beautiful especially against her red hair and green eyes. I only wish I had skin so beautiful that people take notice and compared it to something they enjoy. Mine only gets compared to redneck or farmers tans. LOL.  Earlier in this thread someone felt the need to chastise their kids for laughing at an afro on Oprah. Why? If it isn't normal to see an afro then maybe it is deemed funny in their eyes. Just because it has something to do with a black person doesn't mean it is racist to not like it nor should whites apologize for noticing and commenting on the difference. I know I have had many hairstyles over the years that my black friends found hilarious. Looking back, maybe they were right. Was it racist for them to laugh at my hairstyle choices? No. It wasn't done in a hateful, hurtful way. They have nothing to apologize for. Good whites that are not racist are so scared of doing something racist that they overcompensate and imo make matters worse. Anyway, I am rambling now. My kids are up and interrupting, making it hard to think and type. I think the only way to end racism of all types is to acknowledge that it happened in the past, still happens today, try to treat each other with respect and love that you would want for yourself and your family while standing up against wrongdoings, both racist and not, that happen in front of you.

[Laurie4b]

LOL, I was stuck in a Chinese city where nobody spoke English, my luggage lost, trying to buy a few things (difficult since at size 8 I was the fattest woman in the city), and their computer didn't like my credit card.  I must have left my "white privilege" at home, because I sure wasn't feeling it that day.  I was actually afraid.

 

 

I can't tell from the placement of your LOL what you were joking about, so my apologies if I misinterpreted.

 

"White privilege"  refers to the privilege of the dominant culture, which in the US has been white since the 1700s but will be changing in the next few decades.  In China, whites are not the dominant culture, so one wouldn't expect to see white privilege, but I would bet a chunk of change that there , too, there is a group that constitutes the dominant culture and has advantages that people not from that group have. There may be an ethnic component, or urban vs. rural, or one conveyed by dialect, but I am guessing it is there.

[dirty ethel rackham]

It's a good message.

 

That said, I don't think I've ever witnessed that type of overt discrimination.  I'm sure it still happens, but it has not been prevalent in the communities I've lived in. 

 

I'm curious about how people feel about the continued use of the term "white privilege".  Obviously, it's an apt description and people immediately know what is meant by it.  Personally, I feel that this term is no longer helpful to racial discourse.

 

When the term was coined, "white privilege" was built into our (U.S.) laws and other aspects of society.  It was the right term for those times. Today, when privileges are bestowed based on skin color, it's simply discrimination. Because our laws as well as the general perception of what is "socially acceptable" have changed. I think we'd be better served simply calling discriminatory acts what they are - discrimination.  The term "white privilege" just continues to divide IMO.

 

I didn't see it that way at all.  She was talking about her SIL who, of mixed race, but passing for white what able to use HER white privilege.  I didn't see her applying that term generally.

 

[SKL]

I agree that there is also black privilege and minority privilege.

 

It kind of makes me sick to know that if I would not leave the race / ethnicity lines blank on certain forms, my kids would qualify for benefits they don't need; while many white kids who could benefit don't qualify.

 

And in the nearest big city, which is mostly black, there are definitely places where I am not treated as well as black patrons.

 

There are many laws that confer economic benefits purely on the basis of being a color other than white.

 

People need to remember that there are lots of white people who are poor, uneducated, disabled, marginalized, etc.  But by virtue of their skin color, they are held to account for past and present discrimination against blacks, regardless of whether they participate(d).

[Word Nerd]

I think you make an important point and a key distinction.

 

"Rescuing" would be an act of patronization which still keeps a hierarchy intact.

 

And the video actually, I think, did more to illustrate the frequent difference in experiences of people of color and to illuminate how their lives might be different.

 

I think one reason the SIL could step in without patronizing or rescuing is because she knew the person and the situation. There may well be experiences that you are actually in when you do know enough about the situation to speak up. For instance, I know from talking with co-workers of color that it is a huge relief to them if they are not the only ones bringing up racial issues and disparities, because if they say something too frequently, they will be seen as "playing the race card" even if the thing is happening frequently.  That's not "rescuing;" that is being an ally.

 

I don't think it's as simple to distinguish between "speaking up" and "rescuing" as it may seem. And even if the intent is not to patronize, it may still be perceived that way. I think that's one reason more people don't take action in situations like this; they're so afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing that they do nothing instead.

[PeacefulChaos]

oh heavens. The reason we keep talking about white privilege is that white people have it, and it is time we admitted it. We can't fix racism if we don't acknowledge it. And if we don't acknowledge white privilege than we are denying racism too, as they are flip sides of the same coin. White privilege is what lets you NOT see the racism. It is what makes you say, "oh, it doesn't happen in my town!" or "it's pretty rare" or "it happens to white people too." For petes sake people, wake up and smell the coffee! It DOES happen where you live, and it isn't rare and just because it happens sometimes to white people doesn't make it ok for it to happen all the time to black people or other people of color. It is not the same thing. The fact that people are still trying to pretend it is the same thing is what Black people are so upset about.

 

I think I want to bang my head against a wall after reading this thread. (and I'm white!)

 

If you are white, and don't think you are  receiving extra privileges for it, well...bless your hearts.  

 

So I think I'm seeing where I'm misunderstanding - I think I was reading 'white privilege' as 'everyone (general) treats whites better' and was taking it as an insult to whites.  

In the case of things like TV and bandaids and stuff, I can see where it's coming from.  

Though it begs the question - how is the US divided percentage wise, racially?  Like, what percentage of people are white?  Hispanic (which, IIRC, is the largest minority in the US)?  Black?  Asian?  Etc... because one would expect to see more of the race that is statistically higher somewhere - more white actors on a tv show, etc - because that would be directly influenced by the population, no?

I get frustrated too. You're white ? You have white privilege. End of story.

 

Of course it gets complicated by the fact that some people have class privilege as well.

 

And around half the population has gender privilege. But...

 

White middle class/upper class women are more privileged than everyone else except white, wealthy men.

 

And if you have privilege, the thing to do is shut up and listen to those who don't.

 

This woman is simply asking that white people call out racism where they see it.

 

That's uncontroversial. At least, I hope it is.

 

I don't like the 'shut up and listen' thing either.  I don't know what I'm supposed to be listening to.

Discrimination is wrong.  I wouldn't put up with seeing it in action.  I wouldn't allow it in my home.  I don't really know what else people expect of me. :confused:

[nmoira]

I don't think it's as simple to distinguish between "speaking up" and "rescuing" as it may seem. And even if the intent is not to patronize, it may still be perceived that way. I think that's one reason more people don't take action in situations like this; they're so afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing that they do nothing instead.

 

But we can talk to the manager after the fact. Or the cashier. Or post about it on Twitter or FaceBook. We can bear witness. I don't agree (in most cases) with posting photos of the people involved, but at-ing the corporate account and saying "I saw this at a Your.Store in A.City" usually generates a response.

[I.Dup.]

 Do we have to enslaved for it to be acknowledged that it not only happens? 

 

This is what I wonder, how far do we have to go in apologizing for what white people used to do? The worst of racism happened when many of us weren't even alive (including most of the black people outraged by it) and yet white people are expected to apologize for it constantly, watch what we say, not use certain words, not confront certain people, etc. I wonder if even just saying "black people" is offensive. As a white woman I have been teased and yelled at by black people (usually in a joking manner) when I wouldn't DREAM of ever doing the same to black people, for fear of my very life, lol. But to say white people don't feel the burden of somehow "making up" for what our white ancestors did?

[marbel]

"Rescuing" would be an act of patronization which still keeps a hierarchy intact.

 

 

And that makes it very hard to know how to act and even how to speak.  I don't want to come off as a supporter of racism, because I'm not one.  But I also don't want to be patronizing either.  It is so easy to offend people, it's paralyzing. 

 

If I complain about the music blasting into my back yard every weekend from the mostly black neighborhood behind me, I'm a racist.  If I complain about loud music coming from within the mostly white neighborhood in which I live, I'm not a racist, just a grumpy resident.  The fact that it's a black neighborhood changes everything.  Who has the power in that type of situation?   

[ktgrok]

This is what I wonder, how far do we have to go in apologizing for what white people used to do? The worst of racism happened when many of us weren't even alive (including most of the black people outraged by it) and yet white people are expected to apologize for it constantly, watch what we say, not use certain words, not confront certain people, etc. I wonder if even just saying "black people" is offensive. As a white woman I have been teased and yelled at by black people (usually in a joking manner) when I wouldn't DREAM of ever doing the same to black people, for fear of my very life, lol. But to say white people don't feel the burden of somehow "making up" for what our white ancestors did?

 

 

Until people stop using the past tense to describe racism we will never get rid of racism. It is PRESENT tense. Present tense. 

[I.Dup.]

Until people stop using the past tense to describe racism we will never get rid of racism. It is PRESENT tense. Present tense. 

 

Racism has always been around and will always be around. Blacks, Mexicans, Asians, are just as racist toward whites. It's just the way things are, and I doubt the world will ever become so civilized where we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya together (I wish).

 

I was referring specifically to slavery. I do not know how I can even begin to "make up for" what white people did all of those years ago, and yet I feel, even all these years later living in a completely different generation, that I am expected to. That is the "sacred cow" that I feel as a white person is constantly shoved in our face, we aren't even given the chance, we are all presumed as "racist."

[SKL]

Until people stop using the past tense to describe racism we will never get rid of racism. It is PRESENT tense. Present tense. 

 

That assumes that no matter what "people" do, we could possibly get rid of racism.

 

A lot of racism results from people just overgeneralizing their past experiences.  We all do this.  My mom's best friend was raped by a black man.  Guess what?  She and her daughter will always fear a healthy black man walking toward them in an otherwise deserted place.  If there were no other racist people on the planet, she probably would have the same reaction.

 

Our brain is designed to make us categorize and make assumptions based on past associations.  I never saw the bike lock show being discussed above, but I picture the grad school I attended, which was located in a mostly black area.  Black students were in the minority and they tended to be well-dressed and clean-cut.  (This was 1988-1992.)  The black neighborhoods around the school were high crime areas.  Black cops would stop us while we were walking to tell us it wasn't safe to walk there.  We were constantly advised to secure our stuff etc.  We were advised not to park our car on the street overnight because our wheels would be gone in the morning.  So.  If I saw someone black and not well dressed trying to bust open a bike lock, I'd think it was someone from the neighborhood, who would have no reason to park his bike there.  Does that make me racist?  Or does it mean my brain put 2 and 2 together?  We're not designed to constantly look for the exception to every logical assumption as we rush about our daily duties.  Especially when we're in an area where we have reason to be on high alert.

 

Then again, a few weeks ago I called the cops on the people who were taking stuff out of the house next door.  The owner's niece had asked us to keep an eye on the house since the owner was in the hospital.  Next thing I know there are strangers backing up a van into the driveway and removing stuff from the house.  BTW, the van people were white and the owner is brown.  The cops came, talked to the van folks, and left.  I guess they were satisfied that the people had some business there.  Now if the van folks were black, I'd probably be accused of being racist for callling on them "for no good reason."

[ktgrok]

Racism has always been around and will always be around. Blacks, Mexicans, Asians, are just as racist toward whites. It's just the way things are, and I doubt the world will ever become so civilized where we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya together (I wish).

 

I was referring specifically to slavery. I do not know how I can even begin to "make up for" what white people did all of those years ago, and yet I feel, even all these years later living in a completely different generation, that I am expected to. That is the "sacred cow" that I feel as a white person is constantly shoved in our face, we aren't even given the chance, we are all presumed as "racist."

 

 

Just because it has always been there, doesn't make it right. And no, there is NOT the same level of institutionalized racism against whites as there is against people of color in our society. There isn't. Everytime I hear people bring up how it has always been that way, or there is nothing we can do, or that we can't ever make up for slavery, what it sounds like is, "I'm not going to bother trying to fix it, it isn't my problem,etc"

 

The best quote I've heard was, "White people are saying that racism is over? How the f#ck would they know?"

 

So yeah, slavery is over. I don't expect us as whites to "fix" that. But racism is alive and well, and we CAN work towards fixing that. But if we concentrate on what we can't do, on slavery, on Jim Crow, on the past, then we can't talk about NOW. And every single time race comes up all the white people start talking about slavery. 

[SKL]

And every single time race comes up all the white people start talking about slavery. 

 

Really?  I hadn't noticed this.

 

[SKL]

Everytime I hear people bring up how it has always been that way, or there is nothing we can do, or that we can't ever make up for slavery, what it sounds like is, "I'm not going to bother trying to fix it, it isn't my problem,etc"

 

 

Well, that's just like me saying that every time I hear "white privilege" what it sounds like is "white people are too stupid to recognize discrimination and they wouldn't fix it if they could."

[SKL]

Racism comes down to people being mean to each other.  And being mean while typing an anti-racism comment doesn't make one a better person.

[ktgrok]

Well, that's just like me saying that every time I hear "white privilege" what it sounds like is "white people are too stupid to recognize discrimination and they wouldn't fix it if they could."

 

White Privledge has NOTHING to do with whether or not you recognize that racism exists. I'm white, I get certain benefits from that. That doesn't make me racist, it makes me white in a white dominated, unequal society.

[SKL]

White Privledge has NOTHING to do with whether or not you recognize that racism exists. I'm white, I get certain benefits from that. That doesn't make me racist, it makes me white in a white dominated, unequal society.

 

The point of my post which you quoted is that YOU are reading a lot into what people are writing, just as other people are reading into the term "white privilege."  A lot of big assumptions being made by people who *think* they are more caring/considerate than everyone else.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Racism has always been around and will always be around. Blacks, Mexicans, Asians, are just as racist toward whites. It's just the way things are, and I doubt the world will ever become so civilized where we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya together (I wish).

 

I was referring specifically to slavery. I do not know how I can even begin to "make up for" what white people did all of those years ago, and yet I feel, even all these years later living in a completely different generation, that I am expected to. That is the "sacred cow" that I feel as a white person is constantly shoved in our face, we aren't even given the chance, we are all presumed as "racist."

 

 

All these years later? Slavery is not in the ancient past. You still have people who are claiming that slavery was good for blacks and that slave owners were mostly benevolent and that segregation and/or separate but equal should be fine. Yes, thinkprogress is a progressive site, but it was the least biased site I could find that was talking about it:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/03/15/1729331/cpac-slavery-minority-outreach/

 

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/03/24/20764/buchanan-america-has-been-the-best-country-on-earth-for-black-folks/

 

Nobody is presuming anybody to be racist. But, if you deny there is a problem with race in this country, then you are part of the problem not the solution.

[SKL]

nm

Edited August 24, 2013 by Moderator
Sarcasm is not an argument.

[ktgrok]

Racism comes down to people being mean to each other.  And being mean while typing an anti-racism comment doesn't make one a better person.

 

No, probably not. Never said it did. Never even said I'm not racist, I admit I probably am in some ways. I'm a sinner, and admit it. But at least I confront the topic. 

[SKL]

But, if you deny there is a problem with race in this country, then you are part of the problem not the solution.

 

I haven't noticed anyone denying the above.  Not here, not anywhere in my life experience.

 

People disagree on what kind of dialogue actually helps communities to grow together vs. become more divided.

[ktgrok]

I haven't noticed anyone denying the above.  Not here, not anywhere in my life experience.

 

People disagree on what kind of dialogue actually helps communities to grow together vs. become more divided.

People  in this thread have said that this is more a problem of the past, not today. They have said it isn't an issue where they live. They have said they don't think they have white privledge. Yes, it is being denied.

[Mrs Mungo]

Racism comes down to people being mean to each other.  And being mean while typing an anti-racism comment doesn't make one a better person.

 

I disagree that systemic racism has anything to do with people being mean to each other. 

 

Systemic racism has a lot more to do how people treat people like them versus how they treat people not like them. Are they more likely to hire a Dalton than a D'Shawn? Is a store security person more likely to follow around a well dressed women in dreds than blond girl in sweats and a pony tail? Do schools in predominantly black school districts have enough money to buy books? I have posted books, documentaries, videos and articles with statistics over several threads the last couple of days dealing with race. Have you bothered to look at any of them or think about any of it critically? Because it has nothing to do with being mean to one another. It has to do with the fact that we have to get out of our own heads and really think about our actions and how we can actively improve the lives of other people.

[I.Dup.]

Did I say that racism doesn't exist? Or since slavery is over racism is no longer a problem? That's not even remotely close to the point I was trying to make.

[SKL]

People  in this thread have said that this is more a problem of the past, not today. They have said it isn't an issue where they live. They have said they don't think they have white privledge. Yes, it is being denied.

 

We must be reading a different thread.

[SKL]

By calling people deniers, some people have effectively sidestepped the issue of whether or not there are better ways to discuss and otherwise address the problems that we all know exist.  Obviously deniers need to have "white privilege" beaten into their thick skulls.

[SKL]

I'm glad people don't just quietly accept what would be politically incorrect (at best) if spoken about any minority group.