One easy thing every white person could do to make the world a better place

[ktgrok]

When you live in a diverse area like I do, and work in a diverse workplace as I have in the past,  you know it is culture not color.

 

Scary..scary is not defined by color. It's the look in the eyes, the demeanor, and the weapons that are evident.  Last night I was sitting in a diverse small town waiting for my teen to get out of his gig...scary were the older teens in the fast food joint planning on where and when they were going to jump their rivals later, while eyeing my backpack and laptop rather than that of the dude's at the next table. Not scary were the groups of young muscular men passing my parked car, everyone on a cell phone, looking around warily, as they hurried to get off the street before midnight while being passed by cars that fit the profile of drug dealer vehicles. Not scary were the members of the religious groups, who were off the street and gathered in their homes ready to celebrate their Sabbath.

 

And by relating my experience, I do not mean to denigrate the experience of those of you who live in less diverse areas, as most of the nation does. I am simply posting my experience. Living in a diverse area, where there are no 'railroad tracks' or the like to separate sociocultural groups has been an interesting experience compared to growing up as a military brat or living in an area of just one socioeconomic group.

 

I agree to a point. However, MOST people, when confronted with two groups of the same "look" but of different races will assign more scariness to one race than another. Not on purpose. (there are some GREAT articles about this...where they showed the really subconcious biases using some computer programs...it was on RadioLab once), And, more importantly, if a white "scary" person is arrested/convicted, he will probably get less jail time than a black "scary" person. For the same crime. 

[Murmer]

What does dismantling that framework look like in practice?

 

It is speaking up when bias (good or bad), stereotyping or discrimination is present.  Its actively talking about race in a positive way that includes actually talking about race (not color blindness).  It is teaching our children to question those that show bias, stereotyping, or discrimination in a respectful way including in literature.  It is patronizing those companies that show that they are working toward equity like the bandaid company that has multiple flesh colored bandaids, or going to see the movies/tv/music that shows a minority member in a nonstereotypical way ie Tiana, Doc, Darius Grey (assuming you engage in watching movies/tv/music of the majority that has similar rating topics ect).  

 

It is talking about those people who have and are working for change of all racial groups including white anti-racists.  Have books, movies, music, pictures, art in your home that portray a variety of racial groups.  Look at the toys that you have and ensure that your children have baby dolls/toys that represent all racial groups.  

 

We have a unique power in that we are already outside the mainstream by homeschooling.  We get to have more power over what our children see, read and learn.  That means we can ensure that the things that are children are reading are teaching the value of all humans...we can read things that challenge them regarding race and have discussions about race.  When we read books that use the n word (which is present in classic literature) we can talk about the time it was written and how everything has changed and what we can continue to do to change it.  Our children are going into a US in which the majority of babies born will be nonwhite!  Many of us with little ones will be one of the first generations in which their parents have been raised in a world in which equity based on race it law bound.  They will have been raised seeing a black man as president (regardless of political leaning this is an amazing thing for black kids).  They may be able to reach more fully the dream of MLKJ than we have and we have the opportunity to help them reach that. :)

[I.Dup.]

Could you all possibly point me toward statistics on how many whites commit murders or other felonies vs. blacks?

[Parrothead]

Could you all possibly point me toward statistics on how many whites commit murders or other felonies vs. blacks?

 

You might find what you are looking for on this website.  Or here.  The second may be easier to navigate.

[I.Dup.]

You might find what you are looking for on this website.  Or here.  The second may be easier to navigate.

 

I still cannot find anything by race. I will just google.

[I.Dup.]

ok, I get your question. The idea is that yes, somewhere out there people, yes, probably white, are orchestrating things so that White Privilege exists.

 

???

 

wouldn't that be a huge part of where this is coming from? But "somewhere out there" ... what does that mean? WHERE is it coming from? I certainly don't expect special treatment when I'm out because of my skin color, that is just bizarre to me. WHO is causing this? Wouldn't finding out more details on that be helpful, instead of trying to get all of us who are just trying to raise our families, go about our daily business, and live the best life we can to somehow feel guilty for being privileged because of our skin color? Many of us have not ever experienced that, or seen black people be unfairly treated. I can assure you if I saw unfair treatment I would confront it.

[Parrothead]

I still cannot find anything by race. I will just google.

 

Okay, The FBI requires local departments to report those statistics for the Uniform Crime Reporting database.  The information you are seeking is out there somewhere. 

 

I would caution you to not draw too many conclusions about different races only going by those statistics.  Lots of studies have been done which show environment, education and many other variables come into play.  Race is just one very small part of the violent crime equation.

 

But as others have pointed out, race does seem to play a role in sentencing.  Two people from very similar backgrounds could commit the same crime and the black guy will probably get a stronger sentence. 

 

What I would like to see is the race of the judge handing out the sentences.  Do black judges tend to be more lenient when the defendant is black?  Are women judges tougher at sentencing than men judges?  That would be interesting data.

 

[Laura Corin]

 

 

IIRC, you were in Hong Kong, yes? If so, that might also factor into the treatment of black vs white you mention (as I assume you mean in something other than language?).

 

I was in Hong Kong for seven years, Taiwan for five years and Mainland China for five years.  I was talking about Mainland China, because I assumed that this was what SKL referred to.

 

L

[Parrothead]

???

 

wouldn't that be a huge part of where this is coming from? But "somewhere out there" ... what does that mean? WHERE is it coming from? I certainly don't expect special treatment when I'm out because of my skin color, that is just bizarre to me. WHO is causing this? Wouldn't finding out more details on that be helpful, instead of trying to get all of us who are just trying to raise our families, go about our daily business, and live the best life we can to somehow feel guilty for being privileged because of our skin color? Many of us have not ever experienced that, or seen black people be unfairly treated. I can assure you if I saw unfair treatment I would confront it.

 

The who would be old white men of wealth and prestige.

[Laurie4b]

Is that conclusion for data that shows no difference in prior convictions, and same jurisdiction?

 

Yeah, there is tons of it. I'm sneaking a peek while at work, but it's not urban myth. I studied it while in grad school.

[Parrothead]

Is that conclusion for data that shows no difference in prior convictions, and same jurisdiction?

 

To be quite honest I've never looked into it that deeply.  I'm coming from a perspective of it being general knowledge within law enforcement circles.

 

This PDF has statistics in it if you are interested.  Also the parent website.

[Laurie4b]

Actually the more I think about it, the problem here is that the people here trying to define "white privilege" are ignoring the actual meaning of "privilege."  Privilege is by definition not available to everyone.  But what we're talking about here is treatment that should be given to everyone.  It makes no sense.  The term "privilege" not only has a specific definition that is being ignored here, but it also has negative connotations.  When someone is referred to as a "privileged youth" the implication is that said youth hasn't had normal life experiences and is unlikely to be considerate of those who have.

 

It makes no sense to say someone has a "privilege" when you really mean that *other* people aren't being treated right.  Why not just say some groups of people aren't being treated right?  The only logical reason to screw with words in this way is to put white people on the defensive.  That has to be the intention.  Now some here are just going along because they assume whoever coined "white privilege" had purely neutral intentions.  I can understand that, but I think it's wrong.

 

I've noticed in life that when people are not agreeing and one party speaks to other people's intentions, which they cannot see and know, as if it were reality, that it's harder to arrive at solutions.

 

From your words, the term "white privilege" makes you feel like you're being put on defensive. That's totally fine. It's true for you. I get that now.  And I am interested in knowing about that because when I'm involved in discussions about race, it will be a pit I will try to avoid stumbling into the next time. 

 

But not every white person has the same reaction. When I first learned about it, though I am white, I was curious. I was interested about learning what it meant and how things were different for me than other people.  And I was very gratified one day when a guy at work who did something to me that if I had done to him would have made everyone think I had lost my mind. I confronted him about it and he responded (I didn't introduce the term) that he realized he was acting on male privilege and apologized. I appreciated it because that's exactly what happened.

 

I think the phrase "white privilege" makes sense. The foundations come from fairly recent history as a pp previously described well. 

[I.Dup.]

is it the general belief that blacks are committing crimes at no higher rates than whites, but that blacks are the ones that are being sentenced unfairly?

[marbel]

ok, I get your question. The idea is that yes, somewhere out there people, yes, probably white, are orchestrating things so that White Privilege exists. But, that doesn't mean that EVERYONE who is white is to blame. They enjoy the benefits, but they didn't create the problem. Two separate things. I didn't cause myself to be born in the USA, my parents made that happen. But I enjoy the benefits of being a US citizen. Does that make sense?

 

 

???

 

wouldn't that be a huge part of where this is coming from? But "somewhere out there" ... what does that mean? WHERE is it coming from? I certainly don't expect special treatment when I'm out because of my skin color, that is just bizarre to me. WHO is causing this? Wouldn't finding out more details on that be helpful, instead of trying to get all of us who are just trying to raise our families, go about our daily business, and live the best life we can to somehow feel guilty for being privileged because of our skin color? Many of us have not ever experienced that, or seen black people be unfairly treated. I can assure you if I saw unfair treatment I would confront it.

 

 

The who would be old white men of wealth and prestige.

 

OK, where did I miss the point where this thread became a parody? There are rich old white men telling store clerks to pull out the bad check book when nice black women write checks for their groceries?  Telling the cops to pull over black drivers for no reason?

 

Sorry for the snark.  But, really, what the heck is this all about?   What did I miss/what am I misinterpreting?

[ktgrok]

???

 

wouldn't that be a huge part of where this is coming from? But "somewhere out there" ... what does that mean? WHERE is it coming from? I certainly don't expect special treatment when I'm out because of my skin color, that is just bizarre to me. WHO is causing this? Wouldn't finding out more details on that be helpful, instead of trying to get all of us who are just trying to raise our families, go about our daily business, and live the best life we can to somehow feel guilty for being privileged because of our skin color? Many of us have not ever experienced that, or seen black people be unfairly treated. I can assure you if I saw unfair treatment I would confront it.

 

You don't have to see it in the checkout line in front of you to know it is going on. If you  pay attention when headlines tell me that blacks are sentenced to harsher sentences for whites,  you are seeing black people being treated unfairly. It doesn't have to be right in front of you, to surround you.

 

And again, who is trying to make you feel guilty? I keep seeing that word used. I have white privilege, but I don't feel guilty one bit about it. I didn't cause it. I do however, make sure I am aware of it, as that means I'm aware of discrimination. Or, I ccould say that I keep aware of discrimination, which means I'm also aware of white privilege. They are the same thing, just from different points of view. 

[ktgrok]

 Sounds to me like you have picked a particular culture that you don't like and aren't a member of, and you want to change certain aspects, without getting the agreement of those whom you want to change.

What culture am I not a member of?  

[ktgrok]

is it the general belief that blacks are committing crimes at no higher rates than whites, but that blacks are the ones that are being sentenced unfairly?

 

No. It is the general belief that when blacks and whites are convicted of the same crime, blacks are, overall, receiving harsher sentences.

[I.Dup.]

No. It is the general belief that when blacks and whites are convicted of the same crime, blacks are, overall, receiving harsher sentences.

 

I do understand that. But I'm asking about statistics of how many crimes blacks and whites are actually committing. I'll look them up when I get a few minutes. I do think that plays into racism quite a bit.

[Laura Corin]

This, this, this!

 

On a slight tangent, I finally gave in a few weeks ago and began watching Doctor Who.

I'm completely unfamiliar with race "climate" in the UK but, having worked my way up to modern season 3, I've spent the entire time LOVING how interracial the show is in comparison to American television. It makes me uncomfortable to recognize it as unusual, but it really is. You just don't often see such natural mixed-race pairings in our shows unless the topic actually IS mixed-race pairings (be it romantic, platonic, or work-based.)

 

We have noticed this too.  Before I start, I need to stress that racism is unfortunately alive and healthy in the UK, but I think that there are various things that make the situation different from what I hear about the US:

 

- most of the non-white people in the UK came (or their ancestors came) willingly.  Now, many came from the Caribbean, and their ancestors had been taken there as slaves, but the move to the UK was by choice.

- to my knowledge there have been no anti-miscegenation or separate development laws in the UK in living memory, no segregated schools or other institutions.  There has definitely been exclusion of and violence against black and Asian people, but it was not codified in local or national law.

 

Laura

[ktgrok]

I do understand that. But I'm asking about statistics of how many crimes blacks and whites are actually committing. I'll look them up when I get a few minutes. I do think that plays into racism quite a bit.

 

One article. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelle-alexander/the-new-jim-crow-how-the_b_490386.html

[Parrothead]

OK, where did I miss the point where this thread became a parody? There are rich old white men telling store clerks to pull out the bad check book when nice black women write checks for their groceries? Telling the cops to pull over black drivers for no reason?

 

Sorry for the snark. But, really, what the heck is this all about? What did I miss/what am I misinterpreting?

The good ole boy system alive and well within the ranks of power and prestige within our government and other entities such as big pharma, big finance, big tech, etc.

 

Who do you think is running the show?

[I.Dup.]

One article. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelle-alexander/the-new-jim-crow-how-the_b_490386.html

 

Thanks, that was interesting.

 

I still am interested in knowing about actual statistics of the rates of violent crime and who is committing them.

[SKL]

is it the general belief that blacks are committing crimes at no higher rates than whites, but that blacks are the ones that are being sentenced unfairly?

 

No.  The rates of commission of crimes is higher for blacks.  But once convicted, sentencing of whites and blacks is compared.  For the same crimes, all else being equal, one would expect the convictions to average out the same.  But when you look at gross data, they don't.

 

Not sure whether they take into account the entire criminal history versus just the latest conviction.  Also not sure whether the people determining the sentences are black/white, or judge/jury/prosecutor (plea deal).

 

My guess would be that the black convicts are less likely to have an attorney who will really negotiate for them.  Not sure why that would be.  Part of it could be economic, but white convicts aren't rich on average either.

 

I'm sure there are many theories on the why of all this, but we've gone way off the point of this thread.

[JumpyTheFrog]

From your words, the term "white privilege" makes you feel like you're being put on defensive. 

 

Actually the more I think about it, the problem here is that the people here trying to define "white privilege" are ignoring the actual meaning of "privilege."  Privilege is by definition not available to everyone.  But what we're talking about here is treatment that should be given to everyone.  It makes no sense.  The term "privilege" not only has a specific definition that is being ignored here, but it also has negative connotations.  When someone is referred to as a "privileged youth" the implication is that said youth hasn't had normal life experiences and is unlikely to be considerate of those who have.

 

I can guarantee that SKL isn't the only person who feels defensive when hearing that phrase. DH and I agree that it is easier to be white in this country than black (he reads a lot about the arrest rates and SWAT team raids of people, especially black men). However, that phrase does feel accusatory. I think something like "minority disadvantage" is both less polarizing and more accurate. Being treated with respect, instead of automatic suspicion, is something everyone deserves. It is not a special privilege. Hence I think the using the term "disadvantaged" is more accurate.

 

I have chronic health problems. I have to work three times as hard in eating right, researching treatments, and controlling my lifestyle as most people just to be functional. Should I say they have "good health privilege"? No, because it might that come across like I was mad at them for being lucky to have better genetics and circumstances than me. Instead, I think it would go better to say that I have "unlucky genes" or am "health disadvantaged." Being healthy is something everyone should have. Other people's good health (without much effort) should be the default.

 

I think using the term "privilege" rather than "disadvantaged" makes it sound like being harassed and discriminated against should be the default. Likewise, when reading articles I get irritated by the term "underprivileged students" when the author really means "poor students." Why should middle class students from decent suburban schools be called "privileged students," a term that makes it sound like they are part of the uber-rich boarding school crowd? What is wrong with calling the poor students from poor inner-city schools "poor?" It is accurate and doesn't have the loaded language that makes it seem like the author thinks "the man" is out to keep those poor students in their place. (Of course, if the author really thinks that, then that is a different issue.)

 

If I remember correctly, SKL is a lawyer. We shouldn't be surprised that she would take issue with words being used in any way that is less than accurate. I think getting people to recognize the disadvantages minorities face would go better if people started using a less-loaded term. The way to get people who have never thought about the issue to consider it is not by using a phrase that they are likely to think implies "white guilt."

 

Why might whites be defensive about the term?

 

• There are race-baiters out there who like to stir the pot. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that some of them do use the phrase in an accusatory manner.
• With occasional talk of reparations, whites are sometimes afraid that blacks do hold them guilty for slavery.
• The job situation hasn't been good, with all the jobs shipped overseas and the wages for men, adjusted for inflation, about the same or lower than forty years ago. And since inflation excludes many of the price increase (the same food, college, healthcare, buying a house), buying power is way down. Add in how many whites view affirmative action, as "giving" jobs to candidates with lower qualifications (regardless of how true or untrue this is), and this makes it easier for people to get defensive about the term.

[VeritasMama]

What I'm getting is that you want to make the discussion more palatable for white people. And I get why you think that would be more helpful. But when people try to avoid this very fact, it actually makes it easier to dismiss racism as an issue.

The point is not to make the conversation more palatable, the point is to not use language that implies all white people are guilty of racism no matter what our personal behavior or beliefs are just because we happen to have been born with white skin.

 

I was born in the 1980's, anti-racism education was part of our school experience. I am not racist, none of my friends are. That doesn't mean I can ever fully understand what it is like to be black in America, even though I have African American friends. But that doesn't make me racist. It makeshift white, which is neither good nor bad.

 

Stereotyping anyone or any group for any reason is wrong and can lead to divisions and hate, whether the stereotypes are considered to be positive or negative. It isn't okay to stereotype white people simply because you think they have a built in privelage. That's not equality, it is simply another form of racism. Whether is "does harm" is beside the point, racism and bigottry is wrong no matter who it is directed towards.

[SKL]

Thanks, that was interesting.

 

I still am interested in knowing about actual statistics of the rates of violent crime and who is committing them.

 

I found them on that FBI site.  I don't have it open any more, but they are there.  More murders were committed by blacks than whites in recent years.  And when you consider that the black population is a fraction of the white population, that means the rate is far higher for blacks than for whites.  And while the majority of it is black-on-black, plenty of it is black-on-white crime.  So yes, I do believe this affects whites' feelings about random young, healthy black males.

[I.Dup.]

I found them on that FBI site.  I don't have it open any more, but they are there.  More murders were committed by blacks than whites in recent years.  And when you consider that the black population is a fraction of the white population, that means the rate is far higher for blacks than for whites.  And while the majority of it is black-on-black, plenty of it is black-on-white crime.  So yes, I do believe this affects whites' feelings about random young, healthy black males.

 

Thanks, I will sit down to really check it out once I put the baby down. And I agree with you.

[jeninok]

I  can't even.

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

The point is not to make the conversation more palatable, the point is to not use language that implies all white people are guilty of racism no matter what our personal behavior or beliefs are just because we happen to have been born with white skin.

 

 

 

but as has been said many times, the term White Privilege does NOT mean someone is racist. Just that they have certain advantages in our society. That's all.

[*Michelle*]

but as has been said many times, the term White Privilege does NOT mean someone is racist. Just that they have certain advantages in our society. That's all.

 

I think the point many have made is that it skews the discussion to speak of basic decency to one another as an "advantage."  I think we could get a lot farther in our goals if we recognized that a standard for basic human decency is not being met instead of saying that a certain group is exceeding a standard.  It implies that treating everyone like crap is the standard and we extend the "advantage" of courtesy only to people within our group.  Really, we should be teaching our kids that all people deserve a basic level of respect and decency and that we should speak out if we see people being denied that level.

 

I know it seems like a minor quibble, but I think it makes a big difference when you teach behavior based on a minimum level of decency as opposed to speaking as if that minimum level is something above.

[jeninok]

The question isn't crime rate, it about the reason for high crime rates.   

 

And yes there are old white men who tell store clerks to check the ID book for black check writers, or pull over young black males more often, to target them for stop and frisk procedures more often.

 

They might not say black, but they make it crystal clear.   

 

Also, so many poor kids grow up in what is essentially a war zone, and likely have PTSD as a result, but because they are poor they never get the help and services a child needs to overcome that.   I mean we all talk about working hard and rising above violence and poverty, but if you don't have hope, nor anyway to figure out what it might feel like, there isn't much point in all that is there?

[I.Dup.]

The question isn't crime rate, it about the reason for high crime rates.   

 

I'm guessing this somehow comes back around to blaming white people?

[jeninok]

I think the point many have made is that it skews the discussion to speak of basic decency to one another as an "advantage."  I think we could get a lot farther in our goals if we recognized that a standard for basic human decency is not being met instead of saying that a certain group is exceeding a standard.  It implies that treating everyone like crap is the standard and we extend the "advantage" of courtesy only to people within our group.  Really, we should be teaching our kids that all people deserve a basic level of respect and decency and that we should speak out if we see people being denied that level.

 

I know it seems like a minor quibble, but I think it makes a big difference when you teach behavior based on a minimum level of decency as opposed to speaking as if that minimum level is something above.

 

Nobody is saying anyone is exceeding a standard.

 

 I seriously don't know how to explain further what the term means to you all.  In this context privilege is a sociological fact, that applies in various forms to all societies, and relates to the dominant color, race, tribe, or sex, or religion, or those more educated etc etc. It isn't something that you have done wrong, or need to feel guilty about, but if you are aware of it, you can use that power for good.  

 

We are all Educationally privileged, and aspire to providing that to our children. That doesn't mean we need to feel bad about it, just that we need to be aware that not everyone has the same benefit and we need not only be aware of it, but hopefully do something to help change that. (Even if just means providing our own next generation of children with a quality education)

[jeninok]

I'm guessing this somehow comes back around to blaming white people

 

 

Really, are you serious?   

[I.Dup.]

You don't have to see it in the checkout line in front of you to know it is going on. If you  pay attention when headlines tell me that blacks are sentenced to harsher sentences for whites,  you are seeing black people being treated unfairly. It doesn't have to be right in front of you, to surround you.

 

And again, who is trying to make you feel guilty? I keep seeing that word used. I have white privilege, but I don't feel guilty one bit about it. I didn't cause it. I do however, make sure I am aware of it, as that means I'm aware of discrimination. Or, I ccould say that I keep aware of discrimination, which means I'm also aware of white privilege. They are the same thing, just from different points of view. 

 

I don't feel guilty.

 

 

Really, are you serious?   

 

What do you mean? I'm not joking...?

[KarenNC]

It is not like some group of people decided one morning, "OK, let's go privilege wealthy white males today." The root of the situation go back millenia. "Guns, Germs, and Steel" gives a very interesting insight into the development of power in one civilization vs another. The norms can and do change, but very slowly and not easily.

 

It is also not that all whites are equally privileged vs all blacks or other groups in the US. Privilege is cumulative and depends on how well one fits the cultural norm. Consider the first impression and expectations of a person of whatever race who is thin, tall, fit, young, attractive, expensively dressed, and who speaks standard English (all associated with desirable characteristics in our culture)  compared to someone  who is old, short, fat, poorly dressed, homely, with a visible physical disability, and with a "backwoods" accent or other non-standard speech pattern (all of which have negative associations in our American culture). These expectations have nothing to do with the actual levels of the individual's bank account balance, intelligence, kindness to others, educational levels, integrity, etc. Once one learns some of those factors, the initial expectations may be altered to fit them, but the privilege is in being ascribed positive attributes simply by virtue of one's appearance.

[SKL]

The question isn't crime rate, it about the reason for high crime rates.   

 

And yes there are old white men who tell store clerks to check the ID book for black check writers, or pull over young black males more often, to target them for stop and frisk procedures more often.

 

They might not say black, but they make it crystal clear.   

 

Also, so many poor kids grow up in what is essentially a war zone, and likely have PTSD as a result, but because they are poor they never get the help and services a child needs to overcome that.   I mean we all talk about working hard and rising above violence and poverty, but if you don't have hope, nor anyway to figure out what it might feel like, there isn't much point in all that is there?

 

The poster who asked for the information was not asking the reason for the high crime rates.

 

She was trying to find out whether actual experience could be behind the fact that some white people associate fearful feelings with seeing black people.

 

I have at least two friends who are people of color - immigrants - whose feelings about black people changed significantly after they were held up at gunpoint.  And as I mentioned earlier, my mom's friend, a white lady, who was raped by a black man.  Just a few examples in my circle of very close people (because most people would never tell you such a thing).  Experience could be a factor, yeah.

[Laurie4b]

Beats me. You keep alluding to 'white privilege'...without recognizing that there are many varieties of 'whites', most of whom aren't wealthy or privileged. 

 

You also are advocating in generalities when people are asking for specifics.

 

How about you clear it up for us and be specific.

 

I'm wondering if you've read some of the things on the thread that preceded this. "White privilege" doesn't mean "wealthy or privileged " in the sense of "privilege" that often goes with wealthy. It's not that it has nothing to do with wealth, but a person could be far from wealthy and still have certain advantages.

 

If you read upthread, I think it will clear it up for you. Several posters, including me, have written a lot about what the phrase is used to denote and it's not about blaming white people; it doesn't mean that white people aren't the targets of hatred and bigotry at times, it is not synonymous with racism, etc. Some people have linked sites where it is defined.

 

It's also become apparent that the phrase is a negative trigger for several people and has connotations that are not helpful to those people, even if that is not the specific definition. It's really clear that the term itself, just by connotations, can derail a discussion. We've talked about it pretty civilly, though,  and I'm glad for the chance to have the conversation and hear different perspective.

[Rosie_0801]

Actually I do not agree that it is only white people who perpetuate what is here called "white privilege."  

 

I agree with this. I was watching an interview with an Aboriginal man in remote Australia the other day, who was clearly hurt and angry at the government and mining companies treatment of his land and people. To him, this was *another* clear example of racism. He KNEW this only happened to them because they are Aborigines. Except he is incorrect. It is entirely an issue of geographical location and the same thing would happen to me if I lived at his place. The chap has plenty to complain about with regards to racial issues, but this particular piece of white privilege doesn't actually exist outside his assumptions. 

[KarenNC]

The poster who asked for the information was not asking the reason for the high crime rates.

 

She was trying to find out whether actual experience could be behind the fact that some white people associate fearful feelings with seeing black people.

 

I have at least two friends who are people of color - immigrants - whose feelings about black people changed significantly after they were held up at gunpoint.  And as I mentioned earlier, my mom's friend, a white lady, who was raped by a black man.  Just a few examples in my circle of very close people (because most people would never tell you such a thing).  Experience could be a factor, yeah.

 

Experience can also be a factor in the opposite direction. This is why we have always actively sought out as much diversity as possible in our daughter's experiences. We want to do our best to counteract stereotypes and labels by giving her actual experiences with individuals of different groups. It won't eliminate the effect of white privilege or other privilege, but hopefully will help her to be conscious of the need to think a little bit deeper about those first impressions/expectations.

[Laurie4b]

 

I can guarantee that SKL isn't the only person who feels defensive when hearing that phrase. DH and I agree that it is easier to be white in this country than black (he reads a lot about the arrest rates and SWAT team raids of people, especially black men). However, that phrase does feel accusatory. I think something like "minority disadvantage" is both less polarizing and more accurate. Being treated with respect, instead of automatic suspicion, is something everyone deserves. It is not a special privilege. Hence I think the using the term "disadvantaged" is more accurate.

 

I have chronic health problems. I have to work three times as hard in eating right, researching treatments, and controlling my lifestyle as most people just to be functional. Should I say they have "good health privilege"? No, because it might that come across like I was mad at them for being lucky to have better genetics and circumstances than me. Instead, I think it would go better to say that I have "unlucky genes" or am "health disadvantaged." Being healthy is something everyone should have. Other people's good health (without much effort) should be the default.

 

I think using the term "privilege" rather than "disadvantaged" makes it sound like being harassed and discriminated against should be the default. Likewise, when reading articles I get irritated by the term "underprivileged students" when the author really means "poor students." Why should middle class students from decent suburban schools be called "privileged students," a term that makes it sound like they are part of the uber-rich boarding school crowd? What is wrong with calling the poor students from poor inner-city schools "poor?" It is accurate and doesn't have the loaded language that makes it seem like the author thinks "the man" is out to keep those poor students in their place. (Of course, if the author really thinks that, then that is a different issue.)

 

If I remember correctly, SKL is a lawyer. We shouldn't be surprised that she would take issue with words being used in any way that is less than accurate. I think getting people to recognize the disadvantages minorities face would go better if people started using a less-loaded term. The way to get people who have never thought about the issue to consider it is not by using a phrase that they are likely to think implies "white guilt."

 

Why might whites be defensive about the term?

 

• There are race-baiters out there who like to stir the pot. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that some of them do use the phrase in an accusatory manner.
• With occasional talk of reparations, whites are sometimes afraid that blacks do hold them guilty for slavery.
• The job situation hasn't been good, with all the jobs shipped overseas and the wages for men, adjusted for inflation, about the same or lower than forty years ago. And since inflation excludes many of the price increase (the same food, college, healthcare, buying a house), buying power is way down. Add in how many whites view affirmative action, as "giving" jobs to candidates with lower qualifications (regardless of how true or untrue this is), and this makes it easier for people to get defensive about the term.

 

 

Thank you for spelling out the reasons for your reactions. That's helpful.

 

Just for the record, I was responding to SKL in a way that I was trying to "hear" what she was saying, but was typing it. She had said the word defensive and I was reflecting that back. I was not picking at her in any way. I was trying to have a conversation.

 

I am learning a lot on this thread about what can utterly derail a discussion on racial reconciliation and what causes that.

 

Here's an observation and a question: you prefer the term disadvantaged. People have said that white privilege refers to advantages for people in the dominant strata of their society which often they are not even aware of. In the US,  the dominant group is whites.  Is it fair to use both words?

 

 

[SKL]

White privilege would be black people having to get up and stand or move to the back of the bus so a white person could sit in the better seat.  Or else.

 

Where I live, young healthy bus riders jump up for older people or ladies with babies/children, regardless of color.  That's decency.

 

A lot has changed and it's really a stretch to go on insisting that there are all kinds of "privileges" that every white person has.  A privilege means I get to do something other people don't get to do.  There is nothing I have "privileged" rights to do.  Every store or restaurant or toilet I go to is frequented by all colors.  Kids of all colors use the same school, library, and parks that my kids use.  I pay the same prices as everyone.  I wait in line as long as everyone.  I don't get special invitations or preferred seating based on my color.  I've had the cops called on me for doing nothing wrong, and been pulled over and never once been able to talk myself out of a ticket.  When I pay my bills late, I have to pay a fine just like everyone else.  The bank doesn't make exceptions to their policies for me upon seeing my skin color.  There is nothing I'm allowed to touch that black people aren't allowed to touch.  Nobody gets out of my way so I can pass quickly and comfortably.  And if someone tried to give me such privileges, I would refuse them.  (Just like I refuse the privileges offered to my kids on the basis of their non-white race.)

 

But yeah, my black neighbors probably get discriminated against sometimes because of their color.  I haven't seen it personally, but sure, I wasn't born yesterday, it happens.  That is not about white privilege, it's about racial prejudice.

 

And no, I do not believe you can't address racial prejudice without forcing white people to say they have "white privilege."  Many of the people here never heard of "white privilege," yet I assume they generally believe black people should be treated decently just like white people.

[Joker]

White privilege would be black people having to get up and stand or move to the back of the bus so a white person could sit in the better seat.  Or else.

 

Where I live, young healthy bus riders jump up for older people or ladies with babies/children, regardless of color.  That's decency.

 

A lot has changed and it's really a stretch to go on insisting that there are all kinds of "privileges" that every white person has.  A privilege means I get to do something other people don't get to do.  There is nothing I have "privileged" rights to do.  Every store or restaurant or toilet I go to is frequented by all colors.  Kids of all colors use the same school, library, and parks that my kids use.  I pay the same prices as everyone.  I wait in line as long as everyone.  I don't get special invitations or preferred seating based on my color.  I've had the cops called on me for doing nothing wrong, and been pulled over and never once been able to talk myself out of a ticket.  When I pay my bills late, I have to pay a fine just like everyone else.  The bank doesn't make exceptions to their policies for me upon seeing my skin color.  There is nothing I'm allowed to touch that black people aren't allowed to touch.  Nobody gets out of my way so I can pass quickly and comfortably.  And if someone tried to give me such privileges, I would refuse them.  (Just like I refuse the privileges offered to my kids on the basis of their non-white race.)

 

But yeah, my black neighbors probably get discriminated against sometimes because of their color.  I haven't seen it personally, but sure, I wasn't born yesterday, it happens.  That is not about white privilege, it's about racial prejudice.

 

And no, I do not believe you can't address racial prejudice without forcing white people to say they have "white privilege."  Many of the people here never heard of "white privilege," yet I assume they generally believe black people should be treated decently just like white people.

 

These things happen a lot more often than you are seeing. My dh is one of six kids and he is the only white one in the bunch. He's always been very aware of the fact that many times he was treated differently (better), and it still goes on quite a bit today. He was never taught that he was different/better, or anything about white privilege, but he was still aware of it happening.

 

 

[jeninok]

The poster who asked for the information was not asking the reason for the high crime rates.

 

She was trying to find out whether actual experience could be behind the fact that some white people associate fearful feelings with seeing black people.

 

I have at least two friends who are people of color - immigrants - whose feelings about black people changed significantly after they were held up at gunpoint.  And as I mentioned earlier, my mom's friend, a white lady, who was raped by a black man.  Just a few examples in my circle of very close people (because most people would never tell you such a thing).  Experience could be a factor, yeah.

 

 

Sigh. Without exploring causation, what good does knowing the numbers do? Statistics can be skewed very easily and only reflect one portion of the data.

 

I was raped by a white man, so have countless other women, shall we consider the number of on campus rates happening by largely white middle class males, reported or not?   And yes, I am wary of men when I am alone and in a possibly vulnerable situation, would be nervous if I was being followed by one, but I don't attribute the actions of one very bad white man to all other white men. 

[SKL]

Also, so many poor kids grow up in what is essentially a war zone, and likely have PTSD as a result, but because they are poor they never get the help and services a child needs to overcome that.   I mean we all talk about working hard and rising above violence and poverty, but if you don't have hope, nor anyway to figure out what it might feel like, there isn't much point in all that is there?

 

You should realize that this sort of comment only encourages fear of black people.

 

Fortunately I've dealt with enough black people - and white people from difficult backgrounds - to know that they can in fact make better choices.

 

[SKL]

Sigh. Without exploring causation, what good does knowing the numbers do? Statistics can be skewed very easily and only reflect one portion of the data.

 

I was raped by a white man, so have countless other women, shall we consider the number of on campus rates happening by largely white middle class males, reported or not?   And yes, I am wary of men when I am alone and in a possibly vulnerable situation, would be nervous if I was being followed by one, but I don't attribute the actions of one very bad white man to all other white men. 

 

Your first paragraph:  true, and this goes both ways.  I was just helping to answer someone's question.

 

Your second paragraph:  if you are white, then you've probably also had lots of positive experiences with white men, which my mom's friend had not had with many black men, given it was during a time of de facto segregation in our city.  And further, as I said before, our brain automatically categorizes things without us having to even think about it.  I doubt my mom's friend said "I was raped by a black man, therefore every black man is a rapist."  She was an extremely intelligent and nice person.  But her brain made the association.  Her brain didn't have all the data on all the black people in the country.  This happens to everyone and is not indicative of whether the person owning said brain is nice or nasty.

 

[jeninok]

You should realize that this sort of comment only encourages fear of black people.

 

Fortunately I've dealt with enough black people - and white people from difficult backgrounds - to know that they can in fact make better choices.

 

In that comment I was speaking of poverty and why it is a large factor in crime rates. Absolutely people make better choices all the time, and crime is worse in all poverty stricken areas, regardless of race.

 

We can play word games all day, but this isn't worth my time or anyone elses.

[Laurie4b]

our brain automatically categorizes things without us having to even think about it. 

 

 

Exactly. This plays a part in often unseen majority advantage.

[LucyStoner]

I have at least two friends who are people of color - immigrants - whose feelings about black people changed significantly after they were held up at gunpoint. And as I mentioned earlier, my mom's friend, a white lady, who was raped by a black man. Just a few examples in my circle of very close people (because most people would never tell you such a thing). Experience could be a factor, yeah.

I don't get this. Plenty of women are assualted by white men yet who uses that as an excuse to be afraid of all white guys? My brother was conceived by rape. My mother was 19 and didn't know her attackers or remember much. 9 months later, a black baby boy was born. My mother never held that against her son personally or used it as a lens by which to judge all men or all black men. We never would have known until we were much older but a crazy family member decided to share the circumstances of his conception with my brother when he was like 11 or 12 so we all grew up with the knowledge.

 

 

I've been attacked on the street by a white dude (I think he wanted my wallet, but he got his ass kicked instead), nearly kidnapped out of my home by a white dude, stalked by a white teenage dude (who wanted me to join his church and who thought followiing me home via 2 buses daily after school meant we were dating) and, oh yeah, sexually assaulted by still another white dude. That has not changed my opinion of white dudes or even men at all. It's given me a keen sense of self defense and a low tolerance for asshats of any color. It's left me a changed person but it's not made me shave my head and move to a women's separatist colony or even worry when I see men. I'm happily married to a white dude and raising two sons. If I blamed white men for my history people on this threa would call me angry and unreasonable. Why would it be any different when the assailant is black?

[Laurie4b]

I don't get this. Plenty of women are assualted by white men yet who uses that as an excuse to be afraid of all white guys? My brother was conceived by rape. My mother was 19 and didn't know her attackers or remember much. 9 months later, a black baby boy was born. My mother never held that against her son personally or used it as a lens by which to judge all men or all black men. We never would have known until we were much older but a crazy family member decided to share the circumstances of his conception with my brother when he was like 11 or 12 so we all grew up with the knowledge.

 

 

I've been attacked on the street by a white dude (I think he wanted my wallet, but he got his ass kicked instead), nearly kidnapped out of my home by a white dude, stalked by a white teenage dude (who wanted me to join his church and who thought followiing me home via 2 buses daily after school meant we were dating) and, oh yeah, sexually assaulted by still another white dude. That has not changed my opinion of white dudes or even men at all. It's given me a keen sense of self defense and a low tolerance for asshats of any color. It's left me a changed person but it's not made me shave my head and move to a women's separatist colony or even worry when I see men. I'm happily married to a white dude and raising two sons. If I blamed white men for my history people on this threa would call me angry and unreasonable. Why would it be any different when the assailant is black?

 

PTSD and triggers are not always rationally explainable.  You are one heck of a woman to have come through all that!